Perhaps this is better left to the UA forums, but the prompt didn't generate any discussion there, and I was still curious... so here I am.
For context, one of the changes that seems to have a higher probability of shipping this year is moving all subclass choices to level 3. Mechanically, I have no problems with this, and having consistency across the board with when subclass features "turn on" for all classes makes the game a bit simpler for newcomers, but narratively it presents a problem for some classes. Namely, the classes where subclass isn't really a character's choice. A sorcerer doesn't just choose that they are draconic vs. clockwork when they reach level 3; they've always been. Now, I didn't see this is a problem insofar as it can't work, it's just that now the onus is on the player to justify and explain the transition that happens at level 3.
So, my question is: assuming that the subclass distinctions do, in fact, happen at level 3, what will be your narrative explanations for it? I've thought of two already (and they can also mostly work - with some tweaks - for other classes where this "problem" exists):
1. Unknown Power Source - knowing you are a sorcerer and knowing where the source of your power originates are two different things. Perhaps level 3 is when your character actually beings to understand where their power actually comes from, and that understanding allows them to grow into their subclass.
2. Power Source "Attunement" - Perhaps the character has always known what the source of their power was, but only had superficial access to it up until level 3, at which point they've begun to tap deeper into their power well and access abilities previously inaccessible. Even natural talents require training to reach peak potential... as long as they still get to avoid books... *grumble* nerdy wizards *grumble*.
As I write these, I realize that we as players are simply potentially forced to move the greater sorcerer narrative from character creation to level 3. I just hope the new rulebooks don't use language that restricts the narrative choice, or gives the impression that subclass is always some kind of character choice when that would be very jarring for several classes.
I think it's going to have to be unique to each character story. the change isn't one I am terribly fond of, even if I understand why. When I am lazy, I'll just fluff myself as already being draconic or divine, but the spells just haven't manifested yet.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Soon after writing this I also realized that someone multi-classing into a sorcerer has already had to deal with this "problem". So I guess there isn't much discussion to be had.
Soon after writing this I also realized that someone multi-classing into a sorcerer has already had to deal with this "problem". So I guess there isn't much discussion to be had.
No they didn't. As soon as any magical ability showed up so did the subclass.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I plan on solving it the only healthy way. By not playing 6e.
What are they going to do? Kill 5e? Doubt.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
What I meant was that in absence of an in-game reason for sorcerous powers to manifest in a character multiclassing into a sorcerer (e.g. you drank dragon blood and your DM said, "cool, now you can MC as a draconic sorcerer on your next level up"), the player would have to come up with some pre-game/adventure reason why those powers hadn't showed up before they multiclassed. This isn't all that different from coming up with a reason your subclass hadn't manifested yet until level 3.
As I said at the end of the OP, I feel that the only real problem would be if they continued the language of making subclass some kind of choice for a sorcerer, which makes no narrative/thematic sense.
What I meant was that in absence of an in-game reason for sorcerous powers to manifest in a character multiclassing into a sorcerer (e.g. you drank dragon blood and your DM said, "cool, now you can MC as a draconic sorcerer on your next level up"), the player would have to come up with some pre-game/adventure reason why those powers hadn't showed up before they multiclassed. This isn't all that different from coming up with a reason your subclass hadn't manifested yet until level 3.
As I said at the end of the OP, I feel that the only real problem would be if they continued the language of making subclass some kind of choice for a sorcerer, which makes no narrative/thematic sense.
You mean aside from the fact that they've developed magical powers with zero explanation for whatsoever? Seems pretty problematic to me.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Well, the problem was also already there for specific other class builds. Especially the Fighter class has some subclasses, that already need planning for at level 1. Namely, things like Rune Knight, Arcane Archer, Eldritch Knight, and PSI Warrior. Same goes for different Rogues like Arcane Trickster or Soulknife.
I would recommend to integrate your planned subclass in the background of your level 1 char, and then you do not have much problems, coming up with a reason, why you need level 3 to come completely online.
I did that recently with my Warforged Rune Knight, who "spontaneously" developed active runes and his mastering of the Giant language at level 3. So, at level 1-2 the skills were in training and not yet usable.
Well, the problem was also already there for specific other class builds. Especially the Fighter class has some subclasses, that already need planning for at level 1. Namely, things like Rune Knight, Arcane Archer, Eldritch Knight, and PSI Warrior. Same goes for different Rogues like Arcane Trickster or Soulknife.
I would recommend to integrate your planned subclass in the background of your level 1 char, and then you do not have much problems, coming up with a reason, why you need level 3 to come completely online.
I did that recently with my Warforged Rune Knight, who "spontaneously" developed active runes and his mastering of the Giant language at level 3. So, at level 1-2 the skills were in training and not yet usable.
This is an arguement to move other subclass selections forward. Not to hold all of them back.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I agree that, in the sense of game mechanics, the designers choice to move all subclasses to level 3 is valid, which also generates an implicit benefit: The designers effort to avoid features that are too strong for those who gain their powersat level 1. Clerics, Sorcerers and Warlocks tended to have much more divisive starting features compared to the other classes.Many are either too weak, or too strong, or it was the Hexblade subclass problem (which needs no comment).And the impact of these first-level features was much greater because, in practice, people could multiclass with 1 level of these classes without major losses (as it did not affect the ASI).Now this will always be avoided.
That said... I don't agree with the decision as a whole.The way I see it, some classes had to start their subclass at second level instead of third.In addition to the three classes that originally chose a subclass at first level (Cleric, Sorcerer and Warlock), I think the Druid should maintain their subclass at second level and the Artificer would become second level as well.Because, in addition to minimizing the impact of the lore, it would also allow the new player time to choose.
PS: This is just a point about a major theory I have about the relationship between classes and subclasses that I have in D&D 5e regarding subclasses, which in short they should have more features, distributed at different levels and in a way that exists at theat least one subclass feature in each D&D 5e level quadrant (levels 1-5; 6-10; 11-16; 17-20). I will still open a post writing with all the details about my opinion.
Perhaps this is better left to the UA forums, but the prompt didn't generate any discussion there, and I was still curious... so here I am.
For context, one of the changes that seems to have a higher probability of shipping this year is moving all subclass choices to level 3. Mechanically, I have no problems with this, and having consistency across the board with when subclass features "turn on" for all classes makes the game a bit simpler for newcomers, but narratively it presents a problem for some classes. Namely, the classes where subclass isn't really a character's choice. A sorcerer doesn't just choose that they are draconic vs. clockwork when they reach level 3; they've always been. Now, I didn't see this is a problem insofar as it can't work, it's just that now the onus is on the player to justify and explain the transition that happens at level 3.
So, my question is: assuming that the subclass distinctions do, in fact, happen at level 3, what will be your narrative explanations for it? I've thought of two already (and they can also mostly work - with some tweaks - for other classes where this "problem" exists):
1. Unknown Power Source - knowing you are a sorcerer and knowing where the source of your power originates are two different things. Perhaps level 3 is when your character actually beings to understand where their power actually comes from, and that understanding allows them to grow into their subclass.
2. Power Source "Attunement" - Perhaps the character has always known what the source of their power was, but only had superficial access to it up until level 3, at which point they've begun to tap deeper into their power well and access abilities previously inaccessible. Even natural talents require training to reach peak potential... as long as they still get to avoid books... *grumble* nerdy wizards *grumble*.
As I write these, I realize that we as players are simply potentially forced to move the greater sorcerer narrative from character creation to level 3. I just hope the new rulebooks don't use language that restricts the narrative choice, or gives the impression that subclass is always some kind of character choice when that would be very jarring for several classes.
I think it's going to have to be unique to each character story. the change isn't one I am terribly fond of, even if I understand why. When I am lazy, I'll just fluff myself as already being draconic or divine, but the spells just haven't manifested yet.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Soon after writing this I also realized that someone multi-classing into a sorcerer has already had to deal with this "problem". So I guess there isn't much discussion to be had.
No they didn't. As soon as any magical ability showed up so did the subclass.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I plan on solving it the only healthy way. By not playing 6e.
What are they going to do? Kill 5e? Doubt.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
What I meant was that in absence of an in-game reason for sorcerous powers to manifest in a character multiclassing into a sorcerer (e.g. you drank dragon blood and your DM said, "cool, now you can MC as a draconic sorcerer on your next level up"), the player would have to come up with some pre-game/adventure reason why those powers hadn't showed up before they multiclassed. This isn't all that different from coming up with a reason your subclass hadn't manifested yet until level 3.
As I said at the end of the OP, I feel that the only real problem would be if they continued the language of making subclass some kind of choice for a sorcerer, which makes no narrative/thematic sense.
You mean aside from the fact that they've developed magical powers with zero explanation for whatsoever? Seems pretty problematic to me.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Well, the problem was also already there for specific other class builds. Especially the Fighter class has some subclasses, that already need planning for at level 1. Namely, things like Rune Knight, Arcane Archer, Eldritch Knight, and PSI Warrior. Same goes for different Rogues like Arcane Trickster or Soulknife.
I would recommend to integrate your planned subclass in the background of your level 1 char, and then you do not have much problems, coming up with a reason, why you need level 3 to come completely online.
I did that recently with my Warforged Rune Knight, who "spontaneously" developed active runes and his mastering of the Giant language at level 3. So, at level 1-2 the skills were in training and not yet usable.
This is an arguement to move other subclass selections forward. Not to hold all of them back.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I agree that, in the sense of game mechanics, the designers choice to move all subclasses to level 3 is valid, which also generates an implicit benefit: The designers effort to avoid features that are too strong for those who gain their powers at level 1. Clerics, Sorcerers and Warlocks tended to have much more divisive starting features compared to the other classes. Many are either too weak, or too strong, or it was the Hexblade subclass problem (which needs no comment). And the impact of these first-level features was much greater because, in practice, people could multiclass with 1 level of these classes without major losses (as it did not affect the ASI). Now this will always be avoided.
That said... I don't agree with the decision as a whole. The way I see it, some classes had to start their subclass at second level instead of third. In addition to the three classes that originally chose a subclass at first level (Cleric, Sorcerer and Warlock), I think the Druid should maintain their subclass at second level and the Artificer would become second level as well. Because, in addition to minimizing the impact of the lore, it would also allow the new player time to choose.
PS: This is just a point about a major theory I have about the relationship between classes and subclasses that I have in D&D 5e regarding subclasses, which in short they should have more features, distributed at different levels and in a way that exists at the at least one subclass feature in each D&D 5e level quadrant (levels 1-5; 6-10; 11-16; 17-20). I will still open a post writing with all the details about my opinion.