It is an accepted opinion that Sorcerers are inferior to Wizards as a class. Has anyone played the new Tasha's subclasses (with magical guidance variant CF)? If so, how good are these subclasses compared to pre-Tasha's? Have the expanded spell list made a difference at all in your experience? Should the old subclasses receive also an expanded spell list? Are Sorcerers good enough with the addition of magical guidance and the extra spells? What expanded spell list would you like in other subclasses like Draconic Bloodline or Divine Soul, etc?
It is an accepted opinion that Sorcerers are inferior to Wizards as a class. Has anyone played the new Tasha's subclasses (with magical guidance variant CF)? If so, how good are these subclasses compared to pre-Tasha's? Have the expanded spell list made a difference at all in your experience? Should the old subclasses receive also an expanded spell list? Are Sorcerers good enough with the addition of magical guidance and the extra spells? What expanded spell list would you like in other subclasses like Draconic Bloodline or Divine Soul, etc?
Small correction - It is a disputed opinion that Sorcerers are inferior to Wizards as a class.
It's probably more accurate to say that Wizards are better out of combat, Sorcerers are better in combat. Plenty of lengthy discussions in this forum about that, a fact that in itself shows it is a disputed opinion (Mostly from those that 'dabbled' at a sorcerer thinking its a wizard type, and those that learnt how to 'play' a sorcerer).
Had a friend try the abhorrent soul in a game I played (I'm trying out other classes at the mo) and he liked the additional learnt spells/swapping (didn't need them but liked them) but he twinned Dissonant Whispers to great effect early on, which in itself made that meta more useful (I'm not a fan of twin). It does show though that it is the combo that makes or breaks the new additions and what people will ask for on any new spell lists will be varied and vast, as it will be specific to their own play style and what spell they want from another classes list to suit. Or it doesn't matter and your just going to swap it anyway.
I will be playing an Aberrant Mind soon for an upcoming campaign. One of the things I think the origin spells do well is add flavor to your subclass. A huge complaint where sorcerer is concerned is that the low level of spells known means you can't fully embrace your subclass - some spells are too good to pass up which means all sorcerers are basically the same.
This is the first sorcerer where I felt I could fully lean into the subclass. This time I won't have to choose between a spell that makes sense for my character and the all important Fireball or Lightning Bolt my party needs me to have.
Will the extra spells make the new subclasses better than the old ones? I don't know. I suppose it depends on what your end goal is. If you want to do as much damage per round as possible, it might not matter. If you are hoping for a little more out of combat utility and the ability to really lean into your character, these could be the best subclasses available.
I really loved playing a Divine Soul as is. Would I have liked it better if I had origin spells instead of access to the entire cleric list? I'm not sure.
I will be interested to hear from other people about AM and Clockwork.
I will be playing an Aberrant Mind soon for an upcoming campaign. One of the things I think the origin spells do well is add flavor to your subclass. A huge complaint where sorcerer is concerned is that the low level of spells known means you can't fully embrace your subclass - some spells are too good to pass up which means all sorcerers are basically the same.
This is the first sorcerer where I felt I could fully lean into the subclass. This time I won't have to choose between a spell that makes sense for my character and the all important Fireball or Lightning Bolt my party needs me to have.
Will the extra spells make the new subclasses better than the old ones? I don't know. I suppose it depends on what your end goal is. If you want to do as much damage per round as possible, it might not matter. If you are hoping for a little more out of combat utility and the ability to really lean into your character, these could be the best subclasses available.
I really loved playing a Divine Soul as is. Would I have liked it better if I had origin spells instead of access to the entire cleric list? I'm not sure.
I will be interested to hear from other people about AM and Clockwork.
It's ironic that the strongest sorc subclass gets that way by pretending to be a cleric.
True. I didn't play my sorcerer to be anything close to a cleric (we had a cleric so I didn't need to be the healer) but I did take advantage of spells like Guiding Bolt and Spiritual Weapon. I also think it's a problem that the best way to improve the class as a whole is to multi class with Warlock. A class that can't stand on its own needs to be fixed.
I do think Tasha's helps the class in two ways. The new classes embrace the use of origin spells and magic items such as the Bloodwell Vial address issues players have complained about like not having a mechanic similar to Arcane Recovery for sorcery points (and no font of magic is not a good substitute). Of course the Bloodwell Vial and other items are DM dependent but I as a DM would be more than happy to give one to a player.
I will be playing an Aberrant Mind soon for an upcoming campaign. One of the things I think the origin spells do well is add flavor to your subclass. A huge complaint where sorcerer is concerned is that the low level of spells known means you can't fully embrace your subclass - some spells are too good to pass up which means all sorcerers are basically the same.
This is the first sorcerer where I felt I could fully lean into the subclass. This time I won't have to choose between a spell that makes sense for my character and the all important Fireball or Lightning Bolt my party needs me to have.
Very good point about flavour and theme, with fewer choices it is harder to pass up those needed spells, rather than theme spells.
I wouldn't say Sorcerer is a class that can't stand up on its own though, my Dragonsorc rocked and even tanked when my party needed him too (Gain aggro, action dodge, quicken fireball, shield spell at the ready). I mean more HP, more AC, more dmg is all good as far as I can see, but one thing Tasha's added that will make it work even more is the new meta - Transmuted Spell.
For 1 sorc pnt change your dmg type to any of - acid, cold, fire, lightning, poison, thunder, at will, anytime. May not seem like much at first but I think its huge to sync any dmg spell to your lvl 6 ability, or change your dmg when your target is resist or immune to that lvl 6 ability/spell.
Also, you can now go full-on Sith mode! (Burning hands - lightning) :)
I agree that Transmuted is the metamagic we've all wanted. No more paying 50 gold for Chromatic Orb for one thing. It's great for all of the subclasses but particularly for Draconic.
I go back and forth on the argument that sorcerer can't stand on its own but it is something I've heard expressed by multiple people. I think it has to do with how experienced you are playing the class and what you want to do with it. I'm all about role playing so I have fun playing pure sorcerers without feeling a need to take a dip in warlock or paladin. Draconic gets some nice bonuses to AC and HP that the rest of the subclasses don't get. My first sorcerer was a Divine Soul and I loved having access to the cleric spell list. I think as with all classes and subclasses YMMV.
So I take your point. You can do some amazing things with sorcerer that other classes can't and it's just fun.
Currently playing a lvl 9 Aberrant Mind. My takeaways:
Expanded Spell List is a great boon and the official list makes more sense than the UA list. It still doesn't make up for not being able to learn unprepared spells, when comparing to the Wizard.
Unfortunately, many of the subclass's abilities are worse versions of the Kalashtar playable race – Telepathic Speech (lvl 1) Psychic Defences (lvl 6) are significantly watered down versions of what a Kalashtar gets at lvl 1 and doesn't cost them 6 levels of their subclass.
Altered Being(basically Draconic Resilience AC boost) from the UA version is sorely missed, which also added great flavour.
Monster/races immunity to charm means many of the thematic mental and control spells the Aberrant Mind might seek out lose relevancy fast.
Metamagics: Subtle Spell and Heightened Spell Metamagics synergise exceptionally well with many social/control spells.
Metamagics: Choose wisely what goes on your Psionic Spells spell list, as Psionic Sorcery (lvl 6) means you can Heighten a spell without any components.
The Magical Guidance optional class feature seems a bit OP in general (a soft Luck point anyone?), but make Telekinesis less lacklustre (it's relatively easy for characters/monsters to get advantage on their STR & DEX ability checks to resist you but difficult to find advantage on your CHA ability checks without occupying your concentration, so it helps).
Mind Sliver works well as a cute Bane-lite; many say Quickened Spell Mind Sliver, followed up by a Heightened clutch spell is the way to go (haven't tried this)
Tasha's Mind Whip makes for a nice control spell to haywire enemy brutes on a rare esave (INT save).
Taking Fireball or Lightening Bolt is justification alone for picking up Transmuted Spell... 9d6 of elemental of your choice is powerful and brings strong flavour to a molecule-altering psionist
Personally not a fan of Clockwork Soul as I feel it's world altering and molecule meddling step on the toes of what we might have expected from a psionist... like the Aberrant mind?
I'd be keen for others to share their Clockworks' backstories as I worry they will end up sounding very much the same as one another - please share your Clockworks' backstories with us!
I'd be keen for others to share their Clockworks' backstories as I worry they will end up sounding very much the same as one another - please share your Clockworks' backstories with us!
I haven't played one but when I read it I got an Artificer vibe in that there might be plenty of room for creativity, and then immediately thought of a Chronomancer as time would be very clock-like and plays well with that lvl-1 ability to effect adv/disadv.
Currently playing a lvl 9 Aberrant Mind. My takeaways:
Expanded Spell List is a great boon and the official list makes more sense than the UA list. It still doesn't make up for not being able to learn unprepared spells, when comparing to the Wizard.
Unfortunately, many of the subclass's abilities are worse versions of the Kalashtar playable race – Telepathic Speech (lvl 1) Psychic Defences (lvl 6) are significantly watered down versions of what a Kalashtar gets at lvl 1 and doesn't cost them 6 levels of their subclass.
Altered Being(basically Draconic Resilience AC boost) from the UA version is sorely missed, which also added great flavour.
Monster/races immunity to charm means many of the thematic mental and control spells the Aberrant Mind might seek out lose relevancy fast.
Metamagics: Subtle Spell and Heightened Spell Metamagics synergise exceptionally well with many social/control spells.
Metamagics: Choose wisely what goes on your Psionic Spells spell list, as Psionic Sorcery (lvl 6) means you can Heighten a spell without any components.
The Magical Guidance optional class feature seems a bit OP in general (a soft Luck point anyone?), but make Telekinesis less lacklustre (it's relatively easy for characters/monsters to get advantage on their STR & DEX ability checks to resist you but difficult to find advantage on your CHA ability checks without occupying your concentration, so it helps).
Mind Sliver works well as a cute Bane-lite; many say Quickened Spell Mind Sliver, followed up by a Heightened clutch spell is the way to go (haven't tried this)
Tasha's Mind Whip makes for a nice control spell to haywire enemy brutes on a rare esave (INT save).
Taking Fireball or Lightening Bolt is justification alone for picking up Transmuted Spell... 9d6 of elemental of your choice is powerful and brings strong flavour to a molecule-altering psionist
Personally not a fan of Clockwork Soul as I feel it's world altering and molecule meddling step on the toes of what we might have expected from a psionist... like the Aberrant mind?
I'd be keen for others to share their Clockworks' backstories as I worry they will end up sounding very much the same as one another - please share your Clockworks' backstories with us!
Discussion Continued:
Sorcerer 'Casting Economy'
Thanks to Psionic Spells feature at 6th lvl, you're able to cast 1st and 2nd level spells for the mere price of 1 or 2 sorcery points respectively
Normally, through your Sorcerer's Font of Magic feature at 2nd lvl, you're able to turn 2 and 3 sorcery points into 1st and 2nd lvl spells respectively
This effectively makes spells that you have or swap into your Psionic Spells spell list are 'half price' vs using your Font of Magic feature
Consider carefully spells on the Aberrant Mind's Psionic Spells spell list that you might not want to keep. Arms of Hadaar is pretty mediocre, for example, so you might want swap it out
If you were to trade Arms of Hadaar for say Charm Person, this means a lvl 6 sorcerer Aberrant Mind could cast Charm Person a total of 25 times per long rest
Similarly, a lvl 6 sorcerer could cast Suggestion, Detect Thoughts, Hold Person or Calm Emotions 12 times per long rest
Additionally, all spells cast in this way require no components, so you cast them all as subtle spells, meaning the stingy shopkeep or the skeptical magistrate would have no idea you're spamming Charm Person, Suggestion, Detect Thoughts, at them for a favourable treatment!
If so, how good are these subclasses compared to pre-Tasha's?
I'd consider them to be superior to all prior subclasses, with Aberrant Mind representing a clever (and highly demanded) balance of roleplay fluff and fairly powerful abilities
Clockwork Soul represents the mechanically stronger option of the two, allowing Sorcerer's to interrupt Advantage/Disadvantage, provides a ward of damage reduction, and adds a wealth of coveted spells to their Psionic Spell spell list for half-price, subtle casting:
Have the expanded spell list made a difference at all in your experience? Should the old subclasses receive also an expanded spell list?
They absolutely should be added as optional class features to previous subclasses, affording them a spell list from two appropriate schools of magic
Are Sorcerers good enough with the addition of magical guidance and the extra spells? What expanded spell list would you like in other subclasses like Draconic Bloodline or Divine Soul, etc?
Magical Guidance feels relatively hollow and somewhat trivialises ability checks for the very cheap price of 1 sorcery point.
If I were a DM wouldn't allow it at my table, unless for specific scenarios (Counterspelling, lacklusture spells like Telekinesis)
A fix could be doubling the cost of Magical Guidance to 2 sorcery points per use, or perhaps even 3 points (akin to cost of Heightened Spell, which grants the target disadvantage on saves)
I'd be keen for others to share their Clockworks' backstories as I worry they will end up sounding very much the same as one another - please share your Clockworks' backstories with us!
I have a warforged clockwork sorcerer that's currently unplayed; their background really has more to do with an association with building that Warforged God story (they're a prototype, to be exact). But the basic idea behind the magic is that their Restore Balance / Trance of Order abilities are actually a function of an almost-computer-like mindset that they can overclock for a bit. Bastion and Cavalcade are just altered Shield / Dispel Magic / Mending spells.
They're not touched by Primus or Mechanus, they're basically just a sapient AI with a magical core that taps into ambient magical energy and shapes it with machine-like precision.
I considered a dwarven Clockwork Sorcerer as well. They'd be replacing modrons and Mechanus with the power of Moradin. Each dwarf soul is personally forged by the dwarven gods. Amber Brawnhammer brought a little extra spark from the godly forge to life with her, which empowers her ability to temporarily "temper" her companions and enhance them. Or sunder her enemies.
Magical Guidance feels relatively hollow and somewhat trivialises ability checks for the very cheap price of 1 sorcery point.
If I were a DM wouldn't allow it at my table, unless for specific scenarios (Counterspelling, lacklusture spells like Telekinesis)
A fix could be doubling the cost of Magical Guidance to 2 sorcery points per use, or perhaps even 3 points (akin to cost of Heightened Spell, which grants the target disadvantage on saves)
Not even for the two luck-based sub-classes? I mean, its a pretty classic example of being able to manipulate luck. Requiring 3 sorcery points to use it, however? That's pretty crazy expensive. Compare to the Abjurer, who gets a bonus to Dispel Magic and Counterspell for free. Or the bard, who's giving out d8's and cleric/druids d4s with Guidance.
Plus... I think it something that the sorcerer really, really needs. Most sorcerers don't have a good Arcana check. And yet, they're generally expected, as arcanists, to be the party member who knows the most about magic. This allows them to be able to function as the magical expert without being forced to invest heavily into INT.
Plus? Its only advantage. While nice, its also something that could potentially be gotten from a simple Help action. If anything, 1 sorcery point AND one of your few metamagic options might be too expensive.
--------------------------------------
All in all, I think the sorcerer definitely got a huge, huge boost, though you really need to keep in mind the various magic items, subclass features and base class additions to really make them function well. I'm a bit disappointed that the magic items require Attunement (like, Wild Magic Sorcerer getting both the Vial and Feywild Shard is really nice, but that's just covering things they should do by default, and takes 2 attunements).
Clockwork Soul represents the mechanically stronger option of the two, allowing Sorcerer's to interrupt Advantage/Disadvantage, provides a ward of damage reduction, and adds a wealth of coveted spells to their Psionic Spell spell list for half-price, subtle casting:
You should re-read Clockwork Soul's bonus spell description - they do not get to freely Subtle cast their spells for discounted sorcery points like the Aberrant does. As their replacement options are so much... more, I feel this was done for the sake of balance, as Aberrant's replacement list is *much* more limited.
Three really good bits of perspective from Mephista and mkweaver, thanks for sharing!
Do like the warforged angle for sure, and wasn’t aware that the CWS couldn’t subtle spells from their unique spell list. It is insane though how good the options are to though in that list!
Is anyone else completely baffled as to how the Pulse Wave spell from Tasha’s didn’t make it into the Sorcerer spell list? WotC published an almost identical psionic spell in the same UA as the Aberrant Mind called Psionic Blast, which presumably didn’t make the cut because of its similarity to what is now Pulse Wave, so very disappointed there.
Point of order: Pulse Wave is not in Tasha's. It's in Matt Mercer's book, and it's a Dunamancy spell only available to wizards from one of the two Dunamancy schools of magic. It's still canon, meaning Bards can learn it with Magical Secrets, and WotC could have chosen to give this to the Aberrant Mind. However, they probably didn't want to reprint a spell that Matt clearly intended to be tied to a specific nation in his setting. They'd also have to explain to people who haven't bought Explorer's Guide to Wildemont why this new spell is seemingly only available to one specific subclass.
Point of order: Pulse Wave is not in Tasha's. It's in Matt Mercer's book, and it's a Dunamancy spell only available to wizards from one of the two Dunamancy schools of magic. It's still canon, meaning Bards can learn it with Magical Secrets, and WotC could have chosen to give this to the Aberrant Mind. However, they probably didn't want to reprint a spell that Matt clearly intended to be tied to a specific nation in his setting. They'd also have to explain to people who haven't bought Explorer's Guide to Wildemont why this new spell is seemingly only available to one specific subclass.
Ah, good spot on Wildmount. Think you might be right there about respecting his wishes too, which is good of them. Sad to think though that it potentially robbed 5e at large by influencing WotC to scuttle the Psionic Blast Spell that they were considering from the same UA as Aberrant Mind.
In general, Id have wished WorC had been more flexible and nuanced with the Psionic Spells spell list rather than a blanket selection across enchantment and divination schools. Commune, for example, is a very incongruous option you can choose, yet Hypnotic Pattern (hypnosis often being synonymous with ESP and psionics in pop culture) is not. I think an extended, yet more selective, spell list from across the schools of magic would have made a good deal more sense.
Honestly, I'm really not a fan of picking from spell schools either. Its a quick-and-dirty way of dealing with the issue while remaining somewhat thematically appropriate. I can understand not wanting to really focus too much word count on the matter, however. That is a lot of word count (and thus money) devoted to something increasingly niche. Its pretty awesome that you can do it at all.
Hypnotic Pattern is also already on the Sorcerer spell list. If you want it, then you can simply take it when you hit level 5/6. That's the nice thing about the expanded spell list - I can invest a few levels into getting "key" level 3 spells like Fly, Counterspell & Dispel Magic without feeling like I'm not taking any spells of level 4-5. Its... nice. Honestly, my favorite part of the new spell lists. So much easier. Combined with the normal sorcerer changing-out-spells rules, its very easy to adjust.
I also think that they were trying to reproduce Pulse Wave with the level 18 ability, somewhat.
I'm getting ready to play my first sorcerer, an aberrant mind one. I've never play a spellcaster where I couldn't switch out my spells after every long rest and I'm nervous about that part of it and also picking good feats and what not. I feel like that after I've been playing a character, for a while, I become really aware of the decisions that I made in building the character, that can't be changed. If you've played an aberrant mind sorcerer, for a while, would you might telling me what choices in spells (and also feats and magic items) that you are either really happy with or regret tremendously? I've like the benefit of learning from your successes and disappointments!
I'm getting ready to play my first sorcerer, an aberrant mind one. I've never play a spellcaster where I couldn't switch out my spells after every long rest and I'm nervous about that part of it and also picking good feats and what not. I feel like that after I've been playing a character, for a while, I become really aware of the decisions that I made in building the character, that can't be changed. If you've played an aberrant mind sorcerer, for a while, would you might telling me what choices in spells (and also feats and magic items) that you are either really happy with or regret tremendously? I've like the benefit of learning from your successes and disappointments!
I played an AM sorcerer up until Level 12
For feats you can never go wrong with metamagic adept. Two extra sorcerery points and two extra metamagics are invaluable. For a magic item you will want a blood well vial as you will want to get sorcery points back and that's the only way to do it. Telekinetic is a thematic feat and useful for tossing enemies over cliffs.
Spell choice is really up to you. Do you want to be thematic or do you just want to get the best spells possible? I got a lot of use out of Dissonant Whispers (which you get for free) and Tasha's Mind Whip. I never really used the Hadar spells . You will want mage armor and/or Shield. Magic Missile or Sleep are good at Level 1. If you want an attack roll spell then Chromatic Orb is your friend. Crown of Madness is thematic and okay. Mirror Image or Misty Step will get you out of a jam. I'm always a fan of Suggestion which is also thematic.
As far as your level three spells there are a lot of really good one. Most people take fireball. It's good for crowds. I like lighting bolt because I'm usually last in initiative and can't cast it if the tank is in the enemies's face. I got a lot of use out of Erupting Earth. Counterspell and Intellect Fortress are good. Raulothim's Psychic Lance is a nice little spell I enjoyed casting. Bigy's hand is really nice at higher levels. Sunbeam is sort of a given for most sorcerers. Haste is good if you have a tank. Invisibility is good for rogues.
Again, YMMV, Every player has go to spells and good reasons for choosing them.
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It is an accepted opinion that Sorcerers are inferior to Wizards as a class. Has anyone played the new Tasha's subclasses (with magical guidance variant CF)? If so, how good are these subclasses compared to pre-Tasha's? Have the expanded spell list made a difference at all in your experience? Should the old subclasses receive also an expanded spell list? Are Sorcerers good enough with the addition of magical guidance and the extra spells? What expanded spell list would you like in other subclasses like Draconic Bloodline or Divine Soul, etc?
Small correction - It is a disputed opinion that Sorcerers are inferior to Wizards as a class.
It's probably more accurate to say that Wizards are better out of combat, Sorcerers are better in combat. Plenty of lengthy discussions in this forum about that, a fact that in itself shows it is a disputed opinion (Mostly from those that 'dabbled' at a sorcerer thinking its a wizard type, and those that learnt how to 'play' a sorcerer).
Had a friend try the abhorrent soul in a game I played (I'm trying out other classes at the mo) and he liked the additional learnt spells/swapping (didn't need them but liked them) but he twinned Dissonant Whispers to great effect early on, which in itself made that meta more useful (I'm not a fan of twin). It does show though that it is the combo that makes or breaks the new additions and what people will ask for on any new spell lists will be varied and vast, as it will be specific to their own play style and what spell they want from another classes list to suit. Or it doesn't matter and your just going to swap it anyway.
I will be playing an Aberrant Mind soon for an upcoming campaign. One of the things I think the origin spells do well is add flavor to your subclass. A huge complaint where sorcerer is concerned is that the low level of spells known means you can't fully embrace your subclass - some spells are too good to pass up which means all sorcerers are basically the same.
This is the first sorcerer where I felt I could fully lean into the subclass. This time I won't have to choose between a spell that makes sense for my character and the all important Fireball or Lightning Bolt my party needs me to have.
Will the extra spells make the new subclasses better than the old ones? I don't know. I suppose it depends on what your end goal is. If you want to do as much damage per round as possible, it might not matter. If you are hoping for a little more out of combat utility and the ability to really lean into your character, these could be the best subclasses available.
I really loved playing a Divine Soul as is. Would I have liked it better if I had origin spells instead of access to the entire cleric list? I'm not sure.
I will be interested to hear from other people about AM and Clockwork.
It's ironic that the strongest sorc subclass gets that way by pretending to be a cleric.
True. I didn't play my sorcerer to be anything close to a cleric (we had a cleric so I didn't need to be the healer) but I did take advantage of spells like Guiding Bolt and Spiritual Weapon. I also think it's a problem that the best way to improve the class as a whole is to multi class with Warlock. A class that can't stand on its own needs to be fixed.
I do think Tasha's helps the class in two ways. The new classes embrace the use of origin spells and magic items such as the Bloodwell Vial address issues players have complained about like not having a mechanic similar to Arcane Recovery for sorcery points (and no font of magic is not a good substitute). Of course the Bloodwell Vial and other items are DM dependent but I as a DM would be more than happy to give one to a player.
Very good point about flavour and theme, with fewer choices it is harder to pass up those needed spells, rather than theme spells.
I wouldn't say Sorcerer is a class that can't stand up on its own though, my Dragonsorc rocked and even tanked when my party needed him too (Gain aggro, action dodge, quicken fireball, shield spell at the ready). I mean more HP, more AC, more dmg is all good as far as I can see, but one thing Tasha's added that will make it work even more is the new meta - Transmuted Spell.
For 1 sorc pnt change your dmg type to any of - acid, cold, fire, lightning, poison, thunder, at will, anytime. May not seem like much at first but I think its huge to sync any dmg spell to your lvl 6 ability, or change your dmg when your target is resist or immune to that lvl 6 ability/spell.
Also, you can now go full-on Sith mode! (Burning hands - lightning) :)
I've said it before, but I fully expect a UA article on this very topic.
I agree that Transmuted is the metamagic we've all wanted. No more paying 50 gold for Chromatic Orb for one thing. It's great for all of the subclasses but particularly for Draconic.
I go back and forth on the argument that sorcerer can't stand on its own but it is something I've heard expressed by multiple people. I think it has to do with how experienced you are playing the class and what you want to do with it. I'm all about role playing so I have fun playing pure sorcerers without feeling a need to take a dip in warlock or paladin. Draconic gets some nice bonuses to AC and HP that the rest of the subclasses don't get. My first sorcerer was a Divine Soul and I loved having access to the cleric spell list. I think as with all classes and subclasses YMMV.
So I take your point. You can do some amazing things with sorcerer that other classes can't and it's just fun.
Currently playing a lvl 9 Aberrant Mind. My takeaways:
I haven't played one but when I read it I got an Artificer vibe in that there might be plenty of room for creativity, and then immediately thought of a Chronomancer as time would be very clock-like and plays well with that lvl-1 ability to effect adv/disadv.
Discussion Continued:
Sorcerer 'Casting Economy'
If so, how good are these subclasses compared to pre-Tasha's?
Have the expanded spell list made a difference at all in your experience? Should the old subclasses receive also an expanded spell list?
Are Sorcerers good enough with the addition of magical guidance and the extra spells? What expanded spell list would you like in other subclasses like Draconic Bloodline or Divine Soul, etc?
I have a warforged clockwork sorcerer that's currently unplayed; their background really has more to do with an association with building that Warforged God story (they're a prototype, to be exact). But the basic idea behind the magic is that their Restore Balance / Trance of Order abilities are actually a function of an almost-computer-like mindset that they can overclock for a bit. Bastion and Cavalcade are just altered Shield / Dispel Magic / Mending spells.
They're not touched by Primus or Mechanus, they're basically just a sapient AI with a magical core that taps into ambient magical energy and shapes it with machine-like precision.
I considered a dwarven Clockwork Sorcerer as well. They'd be replacing modrons and Mechanus with the power of Moradin. Each dwarf soul is personally forged by the dwarven gods. Amber Brawnhammer brought a little extra spark from the godly forge to life with her, which empowers her ability to temporarily "temper" her companions and enhance them. Or sunder her enemies.
Not even for the two luck-based sub-classes? I mean, its a pretty classic example of being able to manipulate luck. Requiring 3 sorcery points to use it, however? That's pretty crazy expensive. Compare to the Abjurer, who gets a bonus to Dispel Magic and Counterspell for free. Or the bard, who's giving out d8's and cleric/druids d4s with Guidance.
Plus... I think it something that the sorcerer really, really needs. Most sorcerers don't have a good Arcana check. And yet, they're generally expected, as arcanists, to be the party member who knows the most about magic. This allows them to be able to function as the magical expert without being forced to invest heavily into INT.
Plus? Its only advantage. While nice, its also something that could potentially be gotten from a simple Help action. If anything, 1 sorcery point AND one of your few metamagic options might be too expensive.
--------------------------------------
All in all, I think the sorcerer definitely got a huge, huge boost, though you really need to keep in mind the various magic items, subclass features and base class additions to really make them function well. I'm a bit disappointed that the magic items require Attunement (like, Wild Magic Sorcerer getting both the Vial and Feywild Shard is really nice, but that's just covering things they should do by default, and takes 2 attunements).
Good morning!
You should re-read Clockwork Soul's bonus spell description - they do not get to freely Subtle cast their spells for discounted sorcery points like the Aberrant does. As their replacement options are so much... more, I feel this was done for the sake of balance, as Aberrant's replacement list is *much* more limited.
Three really good bits of perspective from Mephista and mkweaver, thanks for sharing!
Do like the warforged angle for sure, and wasn’t aware that the CWS couldn’t subtle spells from their unique spell list. It is insane though how good the options are to though in that list!
Is anyone else completely baffled as to how the Pulse Wave spell from Tasha’s didn’t make it into the Sorcerer spell list? WotC published an almost identical psionic spell in the same UA as the Aberrant Mind called Psionic Blast, which presumably didn’t make the cut because of its similarity to what is now Pulse Wave, so very disappointed there.
Point of order: Pulse Wave is not in Tasha's. It's in Matt Mercer's book, and it's a Dunamancy spell only available to wizards from one of the two Dunamancy schools of magic. It's still canon, meaning Bards can learn it with Magical Secrets, and WotC could have chosen to give this to the Aberrant Mind. However, they probably didn't want to reprint a spell that Matt clearly intended to be tied to a specific nation in his setting. They'd also have to explain to people who haven't bought Explorer's Guide to Wildemont why this new spell is seemingly only available to one specific subclass.
Ah, good spot on Wildmount. Think you might be right there about respecting his wishes too, which is good of them. Sad to think though that it potentially robbed 5e at large by influencing WotC to scuttle the Psionic Blast Spell that they were considering from the same UA as Aberrant Mind.
In general, Id have wished WorC had been more flexible and nuanced with the Psionic Spells spell list rather than a blanket selection across enchantment and divination schools. Commune, for example, is a very incongruous option you can choose, yet Hypnotic Pattern (hypnosis often being synonymous with ESP and psionics in pop culture) is not. I think an extended, yet more selective, spell list from across the schools of magic would have made a good deal more sense.
Honestly, I'm really not a fan of picking from spell schools either. Its a quick-and-dirty way of dealing with the issue while remaining somewhat thematically appropriate. I can understand not wanting to really focus too much word count on the matter, however. That is a lot of word count (and thus money) devoted to something increasingly niche. Its pretty awesome that you can do it at all.
Hypnotic Pattern is also already on the Sorcerer spell list. If you want it, then you can simply take it when you hit level 5/6. That's the nice thing about the expanded spell list - I can invest a few levels into getting "key" level 3 spells like Fly, Counterspell & Dispel Magic without feeling like I'm not taking any spells of level 4-5. Its... nice. Honestly, my favorite part of the new spell lists. So much easier. Combined with the normal sorcerer changing-out-spells rules, its very easy to adjust.
I also think that they were trying to reproduce Pulse Wave with the level 18 ability, somewhat.
I'm getting ready to play my first sorcerer, an aberrant mind one. I've never play a spellcaster where I couldn't switch out my spells after every long rest and I'm nervous about that part of it and also picking good feats and what not. I feel like that after I've been playing a character, for a while, I become really aware of the decisions that I made in building the character, that can't be changed. If you've played an aberrant mind sorcerer, for a while, would you might telling me what choices in spells (and also feats and magic items) that you are either really happy with or regret tremendously? I've like the benefit of learning from your successes and disappointments!
I played an AM sorcerer up until Level 12
For feats you can never go wrong with metamagic adept. Two extra sorcerery points and two extra metamagics are invaluable. For a magic item you will want a blood well vial as you will want to get sorcery points back and that's the only way to do it. Telekinetic is a thematic feat and useful for tossing enemies over cliffs.
Spell choice is really up to you. Do you want to be thematic or do you just want to get the best spells possible? I got a lot of use out of Dissonant Whispers (which you get for free) and Tasha's Mind Whip. I never really used the Hadar spells . You will want mage armor and/or Shield. Magic Missile or Sleep are good at Level 1. If you want an attack roll spell then Chromatic Orb is your friend. Crown of Madness is thematic and okay. Mirror Image or Misty Step will get you out of a jam. I'm always a fan of Suggestion which is also thematic.
As far as your level three spells there are a lot of really good one. Most people take fireball. It's good for crowds. I like lighting bolt because I'm usually last in initiative and can't cast it if the tank is in the enemies's face. I got a lot of use out of Erupting Earth. Counterspell and Intellect Fortress are good. Raulothim's Psychic Lance is a nice little spell I enjoyed casting. Bigy's hand is really nice at higher levels. Sunbeam is sort of a given for most sorcerers. Haste is good if you have a tank. Invisibility is good for rogues.
Again, YMMV, Every player has go to spells and good reasons for choosing them.