In sight of all this comments, do you think the DM should play the patron?
I can't imagine anyone else playing the Patron. I wouldn't want to play my own patron. It would eliminate a level of mystery.
It's why the warlock is such a great class for RP opportunities. The game mechanic builds in the need to interact with - for all intents and purposes - a kind of NPC in order to access class abilities. There are so many chances for a player to engage in a battle of the minds/wills with their DM - if that's where the story goes.
Honestly, I think a DM should consider themselves lucky if one of their players picks a warlock. It automatically gives the DM a place at the table as an extremely party relevant NPC.
In sight of all this comments, do you think the DM should play the patron?
Yes, or at least maintain a veto over it's actions. Otherwise you risk the warlock treating their patron like a demigod-sized familiar.
Well, I meant from a roleplaying perspective alone. From a mechanics point of view, the patron cannot intervene in the game.
Under most circumstances, I would agree with that. Great Old Ones directly intervening in the game can be problematic - but in a high level game, once the party is beyond, say, 15th level - it may be playable. If the warlock has learned enough secrets, a DM could allow leveling as a warlock anyway as the character's end story is to vanquish the patron. When the apprentice becomes the master.
Fey and Devils are often parts of mid to high level games - or their minions at lower levels.
If your DM is running official modules, direct intervention of the Patron could be a problem. But if your DM is running their own story - I think the warlock's patron is a gift of potential plot lines.
I was actually toying with the idea of allowing my warlock to "summon" their patron via an in-game ritual in times of "great need" Sort of like an in-game nuke when the shit's hitting the fan
I like the idea of the Warlock being able to call up or summon their Patron. Now the Patron may not necessarily answer/reply/appear until it is convenient for them.
Alternatively it gives the DM something where you call upon your Patron, who then pulls you into a demiplane/dream and you negotiate for help. Your Patron can then claim something back from you or demand a favour in return. Your Patron could save your party from the proverbial smelly splattered fan, but at what cost? Have you promised that the next party quest is at the behest of your Patron? What penalties or limitations have been imposed? Possibly your Patron has saved you from the fat, allowed you all to have a long rest in extradimensional space and placed you in the proverbial fire, where your party has to solve your Patrons mission. Success does not necessarily mean you get a free ride home but it might mean that however you get back only a few moments have gone by.
I meant role playing where the Warlock's Patron tricked the Warlock into serving him and the Warlock is constantly at odds with his Patron. The role playing opportunities for a Good aligned Warlock unwillingly serving an Evil aligned Patron are immense!
A player probably has something in mind when they make the warlock, don't fall for the trap of putting what you want their warlock experience to be like over what they want their warlock experience to be like- there's no patron in the mechanics for a reason, the narrative concerning their power might take any number of forms.
"I made a deal with the devil, power in exchange for my soul"
"I have searched many esoteric tomes to learn the ways of demonic magic- it is now mine to command"
"The great demon Azazel and I have been linked, I don't know how, I know only that he seeks my death and our bond is the only thing that stands in his way"
"My infernal heritage awakens, granting me the dark power of my demonic ancestors"
"When Beelzebub killed my parents, he made a mistake, he left me alive, he made me watch- i've spent my life learning to bind lesser fiends to my will, soon i will be strong enough to have my revenge"
and that's just The Fiend, not everyone who wants to play a warlock will want to play the cliche- though some will, talk to your players and respect how they feel about it.
@Suddenly_Light, My player feels that the Archfey Patron will be the Warlock's "friend" and not ask or want anything from the Warlock. With such disparate visions of the patron/warlock relationship as a starting place, I think it would be nice to have a few random rolling charts for patron pact options. As it is, I'm just going to tie what the patron wants into the enemy they are moving against anyway.
@Suddenly_Light, My player feels that the Archfey Patron will be the Warlock's "friend" and not ask or want anything from the Warlock. With such disparate visions of the patron/warlock relationship as a starting place, I think it would be nice to have a few random rolling charts for patron pact options. As it is, I'm just going to tie what the patron wants into the enemy they are moving against anyway.
I would try to avoid the random chart thing. If your player thinks by picking Fey, they're getting a friend - give them a friend. A "manipulative" friend who has great ideas - ideas the player is completely in line with. All is good, until the player realizes the Fey is simply using the player to achieve the Fey's designs.
Warlocks are playing not with power, but with "powers." It's entirely possible that things aren't going the way they think they are.
As @Azmael said, your player wants their patron to be their friend. That's great, but ensure that the Patron has feelings, concerns, etc. Perhaps the Patron friend is jealous of anyone getting close to their Warlock. An Archfey 's idea of friendship is certainly not going to be a mortal definition. In some ways the Warlock is like a familiar for the Patron, it's close but the Patron holds the chain.
What if their friend falls in love with them? Perhaps their patron wants their attention at awkward moments, right in the middle of combat or tense negotiations for matters the Patron has no interest or concern (impose disadvantage and or make them make a Wisdom or Constitution Save.
As their friendship grows, the Patron friend will want things but only to the advantage of the player (apparently). "The rod of Galfindyr (Rod of the Pactkeeper) is in the hands of X, it was stolen awhile ago and it belongs to a friend, who wouldn't mind you having it". Send the party on a quest or mission at the request of the Warlock (should be able to persuade the party)
Yes that manipulative and sweet friend of theirs, is true. But they care more for you the DM. The Patron is your best friend. Plus is that sweetness true, is it innocent or is it simply glamour and illusion?
If you want to create a random chart for an Archfey or Great Old One, it's probably a good idea for it to be about their motivations, interests and fascinations
1- The Rod of Galfindyr (or another magic item or artefact), 2-Do not help X (enemy or rival), 3- A place of power (cleanse, recover or annexe), 4- Understand Love, 5- Start a War, 6- Collect something, 7- Need a lot of attention, 8- Obsession, 9- Jealous and Possessive, 10- Attend a party (Midsummer Masquerade)
@Suddenly_Light, My player feels that the Archfey Patron will be the Warlock's "friend" and not ask or want anything from the Warlock. With such disparate visions of the patron/warlock relationship as a starting place, I think it would be nice to have a few random rolling charts for patron pact options. As it is, I'm just going to tie what the patron wants into the enemy they are moving against anyway.
You should probably make them friends with their patrons then, else your player would be justifiably angry! There's other ways to make that interesting- if they're friends with this arch fey, they might not have trouble with their patron... but maybe their patron has enemies, and maybe their (genuine) friendship paints a target on the player's back (a rival fey wants to send a message by killing the player), or perhaps it's their friend the archfey that is being threatened and your player might have the opportunity to put themselves in harm's way to help.
Step one: Have the patron demand something vital/obscure/random. I use this one .
Step two: Refuse to clarify. Offer cryptic hints in response to any variation of 'Why?'
Step three: Listen to the players conjecture. Copy whatever poetic insanity they theorize. Repeat from step one once they get comfortable.
I (as the DM) use exactly the same procedure on our group's warlock :)
There have been many other replies but IMO, whoever the warlock chooses to be her patron the relationship/pact should be unique and story oriented. Otherwise it is more like an ordinary cleric. "The Patron" should be enigmatic and mysterious and yes the DM is the best candidate to play the Patron.
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Currently DM of a Forgotten Realms Campaign...
This castle is in UNACCEPTABLE condition!!! - Earl of Lemongrab
I agree with the above. "Patrons" should be enigmatic and mysterious, and the DM should choose how involved they are with the story.
I had a Fiend patron Warlock (through family ties, unwilling and forced upon him) regain his soul and, in order to protect it, made a deal with a Golden Dragon who has access to the Undying Light--which burns fiends and demons should they try and take it again. The first deal he had no choice, his parents put his soul into a stone for their demonic lord. My character had to go through a long journey, use an unspeakable tomb (through a fellow-player sorcerer) and bleed--literally--to get the spell components right.
And he still couldn't fully rebind his soul to himself. When the dragon approached him, he knew what he was getting into. He knows Pacts are tools that mean he'll be used. This time, he got to spell out the terms--of course, in missions against fey, 10 years in the mortal realm can be a week for the contract. He's pissed he's lost a decade, but he also knows it was his choice to go into the fey realm, to not betray the contract, to keep his soul protected from the evils his family wants it for. And he knows that, as far as the dragon's concerned? He's a useful tool in his arsenal in a quiet war against the encroaching fey and demons of the realm. Something that, due to what's happened in the campaign, my character can relate to.
So, what does the Fiend want? Pretty sure he wants the soul back because he likes having a complete set. My character was also the only member of the family to reject and escape his (or her) reach. And my character's brother (who embraced it) is pissed that each time I and my companions have thwarted their efforts. All that being said, I (myself and my character) don't know who that Patron is, and have had no direct contact (except for one time...but I made my saving throw, so nope, that plot point didn't happen). It was just a long shadow I had to escape from.
What does the Undying Light want? No clue. My character believes it's merely a tool of the dragons (he doesn't know enough about that, he thinks it's just an aspect of Golden Dragon magic). It has been...suggested (meta-game), however, that Bahamut has additional plans. After all, while the plane of Positive Energy has no official lords or leaders, Xathanon, one of Bahamut's vassals, exists--and perhaps is trapped--in the plane of Positive Energy. Having a mortal body and soul attuned to that realm might be a path to rebirth in the physical realm. Of course, this is just one possibility of the character's final price for such a deal. Granted, the fact that his pseudodragon is slowly morphing into a one-armed wingless flying dragon native to that plane may be a hint...
In another game, we have a Warlock of the Fungal Lord, who cares little about the soul she's empowered, as long as said soul spreads her influence across every region she traverses. Of course, we are about to come across a colony of sentient fungus (screamers et al). We'll see how invested the patron becomes when we start killing those...
@Suddenly_Light, My player feels that the Archfey Patron will be the Warlock's "friend" and not ask or want anything from the Warlock. With such disparate visions of the patron/warlock relationship as a starting place, I think it would be nice to have a few random rolling charts for patron pact options. As it is, I'm just going to tie what the patron wants into the enemy they are moving against anyway.
Read Unnatural Issue by Mercedes Lackey. The main character has Robin Goodfellow (aka Puck) as a friend/patron.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
I was actually toying with the idea of allowing my warlock to "summon" their patron via an in-game ritual in times of "great need" Sort of like an in-game nuke when the shit's hitting the fan
I like the idea of the Warlock being able to call up or summon their Patron. Now the Patron may not necessarily answer/reply/appear until it is convenient for them.
Alternatively it gives the DM something where you call upon your Patron, who then pulls you into a demiplane/dream and you negotiate for help. Your Patron can then claim something back from you or demand a favour in return. Your Patron could save your party from the proverbial smelly splattered fan, but at what cost? Have you promised that the next party quest is at the behest of your Patron? What penalties or limitations have been imposed? Possibly your Patron has saved you from the fat, allowed you all to have a long rest in extradimensional space and placed you in the proverbial fire, where your party has to solve your Patrons mission. Success does not necessarily mean you get a free ride home but it might mean that however you get back only a few moments have gone by.
I meant role playing where the Warlock's Patron tricked the Warlock into serving him and the Warlock is constantly at odds with his Patron. The role playing opportunities for a Good aligned Warlock unwillingly serving an Evil aligned Patron are immense!
Professional computer geek
Agreed, I feel as though in organized play and normal the classes take on a whole new meaning and use for the world.
A player probably has something in mind when they make the warlock, don't fall for the trap of putting what you want their warlock experience to be like over what they want their warlock experience to be like- there's no patron in the mechanics for a reason, the narrative concerning their power might take any number of forms.
"I made a deal with the devil, power in exchange for my soul"
"I have searched many esoteric tomes to learn the ways of demonic magic- it is now mine to command"
"The great demon Azazel and I have been linked, I don't know how, I know only that he seeks my death and our bond is the only thing that stands in his way"
"My infernal heritage awakens, granting me the dark power of my demonic ancestors"
"When Beelzebub killed my parents, he made a mistake, he left me alive, he made me watch- i've spent my life learning to bind lesser fiends to my will, soon i will be strong enough to have my revenge"
and that's just The Fiend, not everyone who wants to play a warlock will want to play the cliche- though some will, talk to your players and respect how they feel about it.
@Suddenly_Light, My player feels that the Archfey Patron will be the Warlock's "friend" and not ask or want anything from the Warlock. With such disparate visions of the patron/warlock relationship as a starting place, I think it would be nice to have a few random rolling charts for patron pact options. As it is, I'm just going to tie what the patron wants into the enemy they are moving against anyway.
As @Azmael said, your player wants their patron to be their friend. That's great, but ensure that the Patron has feelings, concerns, etc. Perhaps the Patron friend is jealous of anyone getting close to their Warlock. An Archfey 's idea of friendship is certainly not going to be a mortal definition. In some ways the Warlock is like a familiar for the Patron, it's close but the Patron holds the chain.
What if their friend falls in love with them? Perhaps their patron wants their attention at awkward moments, right in the middle of combat or tense negotiations for matters the Patron has no interest or concern (impose disadvantage and or make them make a Wisdom or Constitution Save.
As their friendship grows, the Patron friend will want things but only to the advantage of the player (apparently). "The rod of Galfindyr (Rod of the Pactkeeper) is in the hands of X, it was stolen awhile ago and it belongs to a friend, who wouldn't mind you having it". Send the party on a quest or mission at the request of the Warlock (should be able to persuade the party)
Yes that manipulative and sweet friend of theirs, is true. But they care more for you the DM. The Patron is your best friend. Plus is that sweetness true, is it innocent or is it simply glamour and illusion?
If you want to create a random chart for an Archfey or Great Old One, it's probably a good idea for it to be about their motivations, interests and fascinations
1- The Rod of Galfindyr (or another magic item or artefact), 2-Do not help X (enemy or rival), 3- A place of power (cleanse, recover or annexe), 4- Understand Love, 5- Start a War, 6- Collect something, 7- Need a lot of attention, 8- Obsession, 9- Jealous and Possessive, 10- Attend a party (Midsummer Masquerade)
Otherwise it is more like an ordinary cleric.
"The Patron" should be enigmatic and mysterious and yes the DM is the best candidate to play the Patron.
Currently DM of a Forgotten Realms Campaign...
This castle is in UNACCEPTABLE condition!!! - Earl of Lemongrab
I agree with the above. "Patrons" should be enigmatic and mysterious, and the DM should choose how involved they are with the story.
I had a Fiend patron Warlock (through family ties, unwilling and forced upon him) regain his soul and, in order to protect it, made a deal with a Golden Dragon who has access to the Undying Light--which burns fiends and demons should they try and take it again. The first deal he had no choice, his parents put his soul into a stone for their demonic lord. My character had to go through a long journey, use an unspeakable tomb (through a fellow-player sorcerer) and bleed--literally--to get the spell components right.
And he still couldn't fully rebind his soul to himself. When the dragon approached him, he knew what he was getting into. He knows Pacts are tools that mean he'll be used. This time, he got to spell out the terms--of course, in missions against fey, 10 years in the mortal realm can be a week for the contract. He's pissed he's lost a decade, but he also knows it was his choice to go into the fey realm, to not betray the contract, to keep his soul protected from the evils his family wants it for. And he knows that, as far as the dragon's concerned? He's a useful tool in his arsenal in a quiet war against the encroaching fey and demons of the realm. Something that, due to what's happened in the campaign, my character can relate to.
So, what does the Fiend want? Pretty sure he wants the soul back because he likes having a complete set. My character was also the only member of the family to reject and escape his (or her) reach. And my character's brother (who embraced it) is pissed that each time I and my companions have thwarted their efforts. All that being said, I (myself and my character) don't know who that Patron is, and have had no direct contact (except for one time...but I made my saving throw, so nope, that plot point didn't happen). It was just a long shadow I had to escape from.
What does the Undying Light want? No clue. My character believes it's merely a tool of the dragons (he doesn't know enough about that, he thinks it's just an aspect of Golden Dragon magic). It has been...suggested (meta-game), however, that Bahamut has additional plans. After all, while the plane of Positive Energy has no official lords or leaders, Xathanon, one of Bahamut's vassals, exists--and perhaps is trapped--in the plane of Positive Energy. Having a mortal body and soul attuned to that realm might be a path to rebirth in the physical realm. Of course, this is just one possibility of the character's final price for such a deal. Granted, the fact that his pseudodragon is slowly morphing into a one-armed wingless flying dragon native to that plane may be a hint...
In another game, we have a Warlock of the Fungal Lord, who cares little about the soul she's empowered, as long as said soul spreads her influence across every region she traverses. Of course, we are about to come across a colony of sentient fungus (screamers et al). We'll see how invested the patron becomes when we start killing those...
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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To put it simply:
Patrons want 2 things from warlocks:
Patrons are not automatically evil. The last UA proposed a subclass of the Warlock where the patron is a celestial:
http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/June5UA_RevisedClassOptv1.pdf
Oops, sorry.