What I'm wondering is what exactly I'd get from a Rogue dip. Reading the multiclassing section in the PHB very pedantically it would seem like all I get at the first level would be proficiency in one Rogue skill (probably acrobatics, insight, performance, or sleight of hand since this character already has the others I'm interested in), Thieves Tools (already have), & Leather armor (also already have). Is this just bad wording or is that the correct read? Are the rogue features similarly restricted beyond level 1 when multiclassing in 5e?
I would mostly be interested in sneak attack, rapier & hand crossbow proficiencies, & Expertise from the initial dip (edit: Thieves Cant would be nice as well) & would likely go for Cunning Action & the initial benefits of an archetype (edit: & an additional d6 on sneak attack) if they'd apply doing Warlock 17/Rogue 3 at end game.
Sneak Attack, Thieves' Cant and Expertise are class features and not proficiencies, so you would get them with your first level of Rogue. You would also get other class features as you reach the appropriate levels. Rapier and Hand Crossbow are proficiencies not listed in the Multiclassing Proficiencies entry for Rogues, so you do not get them.
OK, great! That puts a bit of a kabosh on the thought of maybe taking crossbow expert feat to get rid of melee range disadvantage & adding hand crossbow cheese but the more attractive bits sound like they still apply.
As a follow up, Would Sneak Attack apply to Agonizing Blast/other 1 action spells w/ an attack roll if I'm obscured &/or the target is engaged w/ another party member in 5e?
As a follow up, Would Sneak Attack apply to Agonizing Blast/other 1 action spells w/ an attack roll if I'm obscured &/or the target is engaged w/ another party member in 5e?
No, Sneak Attacks must be made with weapons, either a finesse melee weapon, or a ranged weapon. The only way to combine a Sneak Attack with a spell is if a weapon attack is made as a part of the spell. For example, you make a melee weapon attack as a part of casting the cantrip Booming Blade, which can then benefit from Sneak Attack if all the other conditions for Sneak Attack are met.
As a follow up, Would Sneak Attack apply to Agonizing Blast/other 1 action spells w/ an attack roll if I'm obscured &/or the target is engaged w/ another party member in 5e?
No, Sneak Attacks must be made with weapons, either a finesse melee weapon, or a ranged weapon. The only way to combine a Sneak Attack with a spell is if a weapon attack is made as a part of the spell. For example, you make a melee weapon attack as a part of casting the cantrip Booming Blade, which can then benefit from Sneak Attack if all the other conditions for Sneak Attack are met.
Gah, OK... Bummer. Saw a glimmer of hope of coming close to my favorite stealth-lock build from 4e when I read the block on sneak attack in the PHB & couldn't find anything specifying it had to be a weapon attack:
Sneak Attack
Beginning at 1st level, you know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe’s distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.
You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn’t incapacitated, and you don’t have disadvantage on the attack roll.
The amount of the extra damage increases as you gain levels in this class, as shown in the Sneak Attack column of the Rogue table.
You could still be a sneaky stealthy Warlock in 5e - just not with Sneak attack. I currently play a changeling tomelock of the Genie(Marid) and the numb er of tricky spells you can get is mind boggling - and invocations like mask of many faces and all the different sight invocations can make you a great stealthy character. Also if you want stealth expertise you can always get the Skill Expert feat from tashas.
You could still be a sneaky stealthy Warlock in 5e - just not with Sneak attack. I currently play a changeling tomelock of the Genie(Marid) and the numb er of tricky spells you can get is mind boggling - and invocations like mask of many faces and all the different sight invocations can make you a great stealthy character. Also if you want stealth expertise you can always get the Skill Expert feat from tashas.
Yup, I'm really into the overall flavor & mechanics of what I seem to have available for RP/problem solving gameplay & of several of the combat abilities/spells as well :)
I was more referring to the combat side of the fence where it's definitely feeling like they don't want to provide the opportunity for casters to gain much mechanical advantage from stealth beyond getting an additional die for attack rolls or giving disadvantage to an attacker (which is not insignificant, but doesn't feel quite as central to or involved w/ the combat tactics as I remember it having the option to be previously) whether multiclassed w/ rogue or not. Not trying to complain, just trying to getting my bearings on what's possible :)
I think I'm going to lean heavier into mind manipulation & control, social infiltration, ranged single target damage, CC, & utility w/ this guy. I can have a lot of fun w/ that I think, if provided the opportunities. If I take any dip, I'll probably look into another caster (like sorcerer or wizard) for additional spell slots & options, but I haven't really started weighing any of those options in detail yet.
If looking to get extra spell slots & something like sneak attack... consider multiclassing into College of Whispers Bard.
They are a full caster so you will get lots of spell slots. And their Psychic Blades feature allows for extra damage.
Thanks for the suggestion, I'll definitely look into it! I'm guessing the Bard (or Sorc) would have alot more stat synergy w/ this guy than Wizard. Wizard or Rogue would fit better w/ my concept of who he is from an RP perspective, but I was already starting the internal debate if Actor was the better call for the 4th level attribute increase opportunity anyway, which would help tie in the Bard dip too.
Look over Psychic Blades and decide if you want 3, 5, 10, or 15 levels... those are all the ones that grant the extra damage dice.
Just did a once over of 5e Bard & College of Whispers & I like what I'm seeing a lot!
I'm thinking I might want to go Blade-lock rather than Tome (still haven't locked in the 3rd level selections yet) w/ a couple weapon & defense-centric spells/invocations to get set up for it.
Or maybe stick with Pact of the Tome & build around Shadow Blade for the weapon attacks? Seems like it could have some pretty good damage potential w/ Psychic Blades & Hex, eating up the 2nd level spell slots notwithstanding. I'd still have 4 1st level & 3 3rd slots as a Warlock 5/Bard 1 to play w/ before needing a rest if I'm reading the multiclass spell slot table correctly & should/might be enough for a couple/few encounters.
Either of those seem like they'd work w/ a dip into Rogue as well if that wouldn't dilute my focus too much. Maybe 14 ?'lock/3 CoW Bard/3 Rogue or 14 ?'lock/5 CoW Bard/1 Rogue? That's a good bit more min/max than I've ever done in an RPG, but the combo seems like they might fit well together, RP & mechanically.
Definitely seems promising enough to spend the time putting together builds for going one of those routes at any rate. Thanks again for the suggestion!
Shadow Blade is a cool spell, but remember it needs Concentration, so no Hex + Shadow Blade.
Stealth in Battle for Casters is indeed a bit underrepresented in 5e sadly, but there is always the darkness + Devils Sight Combo to at least get advantage for sneaky warlocks.
Shadow Blade is a cool spell, but remember it needs Concentration, so no Hex + Shadow Blade.
Stealth in Battle for Casters is indeed a bit underrepresented in 5e sadly, but there is always the darkness + Devils Sight Combo to at least get advantage for sneaky warlocks.
Damn, I'm doing bad on the reading comprehension the past few days... Thanks for pointing out the concentration for Shadow Blade.
Darkness has almost seemed like it would be more trouble than it was worth w/ a party (outside of for an opening salvo) but I haven't tried playing w/ it yet. I guess available positioning would make or break it. I was thinking the One w/ Shadow invocation might be the closest I'd get to my beloved Shadow Walk from my 4e Star Pact stealth-lock, but it taking an action rather than just 15' of movement makes it a bit of a pale imitation.
Just a suggestion... try warlock 7/bard 10/rogue 3
pick your fav warlock... bard 10 gets magical secrets and can any 2 spells from any spell list (stealing spells, lol)... rogue 3 (cunning action, 3d6 sneak attack, assassin for subclass
I think I actually might play this one myself, lol
My version will be 7th level chainlock so I can be a team-up spy/infiltrator with an Imp... and some of the Invocations for pact of the chain to superpower him up... first time I get an ASI or feat maybe take the one that allows for a warlock invocation and grab an extra chain invocation
All versions of this character will be fun and powerful.
PS: pact magic and spellcasting don't mix from multiclassing... you have to track them separately... but the spell slots granted by each can be used by the other casting class... with the levels I suggested you would have 2 spell slots of 4th level from the warlock side that you could get back on short rests, and all the spell slots of a 10th level bard, don't forget about his magical secrets at 10th level
That does seem like a great mix. Lots of options for what seems like certainly respectable damage output melee or ranged, nice buffs for the party, premium skill check capabilities across the board, & really nice utility w/ a sizable spell slot pool up to 5th level.
I was kinda beginning to feel like maybe starting as a Hexblade for the Warlock levels might fit the whole build the best for me. Seems like you might be a pretty damn legit frontline melee character w/ the mix. I might have to build that one up to have in my back pocket for later. It seems like it could be a ton of fun to play, but we're a 4 character party w/ a Paladin tank, Dual Wield Ranger, & a generalist type Druid in this campaign so far & I'm still wondering if going more generalist w/ stronger melee or focusing on the stronger ranged/utility w/ my current Warlock would be the most helpful.
Thanks for setting me straight on the multiclass spell slots, I guess as Warlock 5/Bard 1 I'd be looking at 2 1st level slots from the Bard level & 2 3rd level slots from the Warlock? Makes sense, it would seem like an absolute no-brainer to do a 1 level dip in a "pure" caster class if the levels added on the multiclass slot table like the rest of the "pure" caster level do. I gotta cut down on the multitasking & reading rules while I'm half asleep :facepalm: :D
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So I'm playing w/ ideas to set a long term plan for my warlock & just started looking at the details in 5e of multiclassing w/ Rogue at some point.
Here's the character at 3rd level:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/profile/SidNitzerglobin/characters/65491871
What I'm wondering is what exactly I'd get from a Rogue dip. Reading the multiclassing section in the PHB very pedantically it would seem like all I get at the first level would be proficiency in one Rogue skill (probably acrobatics, insight, performance, or sleight of hand since this character already has the others I'm interested in), Thieves Tools (already have), & Leather armor (also already have). Is this just bad wording or is that the correct read? Are the rogue features similarly restricted beyond level 1 when multiclassing in 5e?
I would mostly be interested in sneak attack, rapier & hand crossbow proficiencies, & Expertise from the initial dip (edit: Thieves Cant would be nice as well) & would likely go for Cunning Action & the initial benefits of an archetype (edit: & an additional d6 on sneak attack) if they'd apply doing Warlock 17/Rogue 3 at end game.
Sneak Attack, Thieves' Cant and Expertise are class features and not proficiencies, so you would get them with your first level of Rogue. You would also get other class features as you reach the appropriate levels. Rapier and Hand Crossbow are proficiencies not listed in the Multiclassing Proficiencies entry for Rogues, so you do not get them.
OK, great! That puts a bit of a kabosh on the thought of maybe taking crossbow expert feat to get rid of melee range disadvantage & adding hand crossbow cheese but the more attractive bits sound like they still apply.
As a follow up, Would Sneak Attack apply to Agonizing Blast/other 1 action spells w/ an attack roll if I'm obscured &/or the target is engaged w/ another party member in 5e?
No, Sneak Attacks must be made with weapons, either a finesse melee weapon, or a ranged weapon. The only way to combine a Sneak Attack with a spell is if a weapon attack is made as a part of the spell. For example, you make a melee weapon attack as a part of casting the cantrip Booming Blade, which can then benefit from Sneak Attack if all the other conditions for Sneak Attack are met.
Gah, OK... Bummer. Saw a glimmer of hope of coming close to my favorite stealth-lock build from 4e when I read the block on sneak attack in the PHB & couldn't find anything specifying it had to be a weapon attack:
The block you quoted says that the attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.
LOL, indeed it does. Sorry for that! Another example of wishful comprehension I spose ;)
You could still be a sneaky stealthy Warlock in 5e - just not with Sneak attack. I currently play a changeling tomelock of the Genie(Marid) and the numb er of tricky spells you can get is mind boggling - and invocations like mask of many faces and all the different sight invocations can make you a great stealthy character. Also if you want stealth expertise you can always get the Skill Expert feat from tashas.
Yup, I'm really into the overall flavor & mechanics of what I seem to have available for RP/problem solving gameplay & of several of the combat abilities/spells as well :)
I was more referring to the combat side of the fence where it's definitely feeling like they don't want to provide the opportunity for casters to gain much mechanical advantage from stealth beyond getting an additional die for attack rolls or giving disadvantage to an attacker (which is not insignificant, but doesn't feel quite as central to or involved w/ the combat tactics as I remember it having the option to be previously) whether multiclassed w/ rogue or not. Not trying to complain, just trying to getting my bearings on what's possible :)
I think I'm going to lean heavier into mind manipulation & control, social infiltration, ranged single target damage, CC, & utility w/ this guy. I can have a lot of fun w/ that I think, if provided the opportunities. If I take any dip, I'll probably look into another caster (like sorcerer or wizard) for additional spell slots & options, but I haven't really started weighing any of those options in detail yet.
Thanks for the suggestion, I'll definitely look into it! I'm guessing the Bard (or Sorc) would have alot more stat synergy w/ this guy than Wizard. Wizard or Rogue would fit better w/ my concept of who he is from an RP perspective, but I was already starting the internal debate if Actor was the better call for the 4th level attribute increase opportunity anyway, which would help tie in the Bard dip too.
You reckon the 6th level up is a good time to look at the first multiclass level if I go that route?
Just did a once over of 5e Bard & College of Whispers & I like what I'm seeing a lot!
I'm thinking I might want to go Blade-lock rather than Tome (still haven't locked in the 3rd level selections yet) w/ a couple weapon & defense-centric spells/invocations to get set up for it.
Or maybe stick with Pact of the Tome & build around Shadow Blade for the weapon attacks? Seems like it could have some pretty good damage potential w/ Psychic Blades & Hex, eating up the 2nd level spell slots notwithstanding. I'd still have 4 1st level & 3 3rd slots as a Warlock 5/Bard 1 to play w/ before needing a rest if I'm reading the multiclass spell slot table correctly & should/might be enough for a couple/few encounters.
Either of those seem like they'd work w/ a dip into Rogue as well if that wouldn't dilute my focus too much. Maybe 14 ?'lock/3 CoW Bard/3 Rogue or 14 ?'lock/5 CoW Bard/1 Rogue? That's a good bit more min/max than I've ever done in an RPG, but the combo seems like they might fit well together, RP & mechanically.
Definitely seems promising enough to spend the time putting together builds for going one of those routes at any rate. Thanks again for the suggestion!
Shadow Blade is a cool spell, but remember it needs Concentration, so no Hex + Shadow Blade.
Stealth in Battle for Casters is indeed a bit underrepresented in 5e sadly, but there is always the darkness + Devils Sight Combo to at least get advantage for sneaky warlocks.
Damn, I'm doing bad on the reading comprehension the past few days... Thanks for pointing out the concentration for Shadow Blade.
Darkness has almost seemed like it would be more trouble than it was worth w/ a party (outside of for an opening salvo) but I haven't tried playing w/ it yet. I guess available positioning would make or break it. I was thinking the One w/ Shadow invocation might be the closest I'd get to my beloved Shadow Walk from my 4e Star Pact stealth-lock, but it taking an action rather than just 15' of movement makes it a bit of a pale imitation.
That does seem like a great mix. Lots of options for what seems like certainly respectable damage output melee or ranged, nice buffs for the party, premium skill check capabilities across the board, & really nice utility w/ a sizable spell slot pool up to 5th level.
I was kinda beginning to feel like maybe starting as a Hexblade for the Warlock levels might fit the whole build the best for me. Seems like you might be a pretty damn legit frontline melee character w/ the mix. I might have to build that one up to have in my back pocket for later. It seems like it could be a ton of fun to play, but we're a 4 character party w/ a Paladin tank, Dual Wield Ranger, & a generalist type Druid in this campaign so far & I'm still wondering if going more generalist w/ stronger melee or focusing on the stronger ranged/utility w/ my current Warlock would be the most helpful.
Thanks for setting me straight on the multiclass spell slots, I guess as Warlock 5/Bard 1 I'd be looking at 2 1st level slots from the Bard level & 2 3rd level slots from the Warlock? Makes sense, it would seem like an absolute no-brainer to do a 1 level dip in a "pure" caster class if the levels added on the multiclass slot table like the rest of the "pure" caster level do. I gotta cut down on the multitasking & reading rules while I'm half asleep :facepalm: :D