I'd love to get your take on the following "opportunity" for shenanigans presented by multiclassing Artificer and Warlock, as I had a bit of an "Oh Shi..." Moment when I realised what I had created.
Renewable WMD generator at level three: Multiclass 1 level of Genie Patron Warlock take a ring as your Bottle Respite & 2 Levels of Artificer take infusion replicate magic item; Bag of holding. Recommended to use a familiar to place ring into bag of holding causing tear in the fabric of space! You can get a new Genie vessel after any short rest, "If the vessel is destroyed or you lose it, you can perform a 1-hour ceremony to receive a replacement from your patron. This ceremony can be performed during a short or long rest". Renewable bag of holding infusion can have 2 after each long rest. Note, I would expect any sensible GM to rule that the extradimensional space of the vessel acted like Magnificent Mansion, into which bags of holding etc can happily enter, and not like a portable hole. Until they Errata this its still open either way but Rules as written you can use this WMD twice a day and with more optimisation maybe exponentially more...
Not only that, BUT if you use the spell Unseen Servant in conjunction with giving yourself a hawk familiar and/or mage hand (or any combination of the three) you'd have a delivery system for your WMD without the need to coordinate with other players. This is cheese, and I love it! At level two you're already able to beat just about any enemy in the game.
Now, if I were your DM I'd eventually mess with you by throwing an enemy at you that can get out of the Astral Plane the round after sending it there and force you to think outside this clever trick or die a one-trick pony. But I still love the idea none the less.
I'm not sure I'd call that rules as written. Bottle of respite is more like rope trick than another bag of holding and you can bring a bag of holding into a rope trick fine as you pointed out. They only create a rift when you are putting a magic device of holding in another magic of device of holding, all of which mention the interaction. Bottle of respite does not mention it, it does not cause the astral rift. You can try to say its like the general clause of similar item but its not that similar as its a magical power not a magical item. In other words its more like a spell than a item. Someone people able to make weak argument isn't RAW imo. At best you can say RAW is unclear. But as every other time the reaction is possible it is mentioned I don't think its that unclear.
I registered just to reply to this topic and why a genie's vessel is unlike rope trick and very much like a bag of holding. The class feature "Bottled respite" is similar to rope trick as they are both initiated effects by the player, but that is not the source of the vessel's power or space, only the means of entering it. The most straightforward distinction to make is that rope trick originates from a player spell you use on an item and has a duration. Bag of holding is an item itself, holding it's power permanently until destroyed. Likewise, the player's vessel is a permanent item with a permanent magical effect. The source of the magic on a Bag of Holding is not defined, and actually neither is the origin of the magic on the magic vessel. "your patron gifts you a magical vessel that grants you a measure of the genie's power" The power the vessel grants you likely is the ability to enter and exit it (Bottled respite), but, like the genie's lamp (efreeti lamp in 5e), the extradimensional space inside the vessel is not necessarily created by the genie's power and could reasonably be sourced from the Weave. Some people have made the argument that the genie's vessel is not a magical object at all, but they would be wrong. The way adjectives work is that they modify nouns. "A Magical vessel" is a vessel (tiny object) "of, relating to, characterized by, or producing magic" (Merriam Webster). I have not been able to find an actual item that is categorized as a "magical object". Rather they get their equipment designation, or "wonderous item" and are listed under groupings of "Magical items". Since you can make your vessel a ring, it would be a magical ring, which is a tiny object for size considerations. Other magical items do mention size or the word "object" without the word "magical". such as the listing of Wonderous Items in the DMG
"WONDROUS ITEMS Wondrous items include worn items such as boots, belts, capes, gloves, and various pieces of jewelry and decoration, such as amulets, brooches, and circlets. Bags, carpets, crystal balls, figurines, horns, musical instruments, and other objects also fall into this catchall category."
Another point to make is what happens to these things when you die. If you die, you cant cast rope trick but the spell will remain until its duration ends. If you die, bag of holding is chillin. If you die, "The vessel vanishes in a flare of elemental power." The quote about the vessel specifically doesnt say it gets destroyed, just vanishes. Implying that it returns to the elemental plane and the genie that granted it to you. The extradimensional space of rope trick will vanish with or without you. The other two will persist with or without you.
Ok so we have A spell that affects an object temporarily, a permanent magical object, and another permanent magical object. They all make pockets of extradimensional space, but two of these are more similar. It is MORE reasonable to assume the bag of holding and vessel would interact to create an astral portal than to assume they wouldnt. This does not make it strictly one way or another because "similar item" is intentionally unclear. There is room for interpretation but it doesnt change the fact that (in english) there is a 51% chance vessel is a similar item, and 49% chance it isnt.
Hope this lines up the logic to a reasonable level for most people. Have fun out there and remember, never cross the streams.
I don't think that it was the intent of the designers to lay a trap with Genie's Vessel. If the warlock (or a 10th level warlock's guest) inadvertently brings a bag of holding into the bottle...I don't think that should result in the infamous clause.
Placing a bag of holding inside an extradimensional space created by a handy haversack, portable hole, or similar item instantly destroys both items and opens a gate to the Astral Plane. The gate originates where the one item was placed inside the other. Any creature within 10 feet of the gate is sucked through it to a random location on the Astral Plane. The gate then closes. The gate is one-way only and can’t be reopened.
Is that really what we want here? Saying that the Genie's Vessel does this because it is "similar" to a bag of holding is quite a stretch. ALL the similar items (Bag of Holding, Handy Haversack, Portable Hole) have this clause in their descriptions...Genie's Vessel does NOT have this clause. Remember that a spell or magic item ONLY does what it says it does. Nothing more, nothing less. I think that bringing a Bag of Holding into a Genie's Vessel should be completely safe. Opening the bag inside the vessel should be safe. Taking things out or putting things in the bag while in the vessel should be safe. Now...if the party tries to abuse this by turning the genie's vessel into a vessel full of completely stuffed portable holes...that would be the time for the DM to step in with a warning. Otherwise, let's not turn the Genie's Vessel into an accidental TPK device. That would just be bad DMing.
Your genie vessel is more like the spell Demiplane, rather than the Bag of Holding. Another creature can't take the vessel and access it, so it's not like a Handy Haversack or Portable Hole. The vessel is more like a Focus for a unique magical effect than an actual magic item in and of itself.
For my table, I would rule that it does not have the explosive interaction with the Bag of Holding.
Your genie vessel is more like the spell Demiplane, rather than the Bag of Holding. Another creature can't take the vessel and access it, so it's not like a Handy Haversack or Portable Hole. The vessel is more like a Focus for a unique magical effect than an actual magic item in and of itself.
For my table, I would rule that it does not have the explosive interaction with the Bag of Holding.
Thanks! I had not thought of the Demiplane spell analogy. That makes complete sense. I just don't get people who want to torture the rules to make some OP device that was clearly not intended by the game designers. At the same time, I just don't get people who want to ruin someone's play by making ridiculous rule interpretations that nerf a subclass and were clearly not intended by the game designers. And then they want to roll dice for a 51/49% chance of a TPK where no player rule abuse was involved or intended. (sigh)
Call me crazy but there's one small thing I've noticed nobody brought up.
The 'danger warnings' specifically says "When you PLACE...." and the Bottle says 'you vanish and enter....'
All these bags and stuff have a threshold that you are essentially crossing.... where the bottle just teleports you in.... seems like a loophole to me to allow safe use.
Maybe I'm crazy
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Renewable WMD generator at level three: Multiclass 1 level of Genie Patron Warlock take a ring as your Bottle Respite & 2 Levels of Artificer take infusion replicate magic item; Bag of holding. Recommended to use a familiar to place ring into bag of holding causing tear in the fabric of space! You can get a new Genie vessel after any short rest, "If the vessel is destroyed or you lose it, you can perform a 1-hour ceremony to receive a replacement from your patron. This ceremony can be performed during a short or long rest". Renewable bag of holding infusion can have 2 after each long rest. Note, I would expect any sensible GM to rule that the extradimensional space of the vessel acted like Magnificent Mansion, into which bags of holding etc can happily enter, and not like a portable hole. Until they Errata this its still open either way but Rules as written you can use this WMD twice a day and with more optimisation maybe exponentially more...
Not only that, BUT if you use the spell Unseen Servant in conjunction with giving yourself a hawk familiar and/or mage hand (or any combination of the three) you'd have a delivery system for your WMD without the need to coordinate with other players. This is cheese, and I love it! At level two you're already able to beat just about any enemy in the game.
Now, if I were your DM I'd eventually mess with you by throwing an enemy at you that can get out of the Astral Plane the round after sending it there and force you to think outside this clever trick or die a one-trick pony. But I still love the idea none the less.
I'm not sure I'd call that rules as written. Bottle of respite is more like rope trick than another bag of holding and you can bring a bag of holding into a rope trick fine as you pointed out. They only create a rift when you are putting a magic device of holding in another magic of device of holding, all of which mention the interaction. Bottle of respite does not mention it, it does not cause the astral rift. You can try to say its like the general clause of similar item but its not that similar as its a magical power not a magical item. In other words its more like a spell than a item. Someone people able to make weak argument isn't RAW imo. At best you can say RAW is unclear. But as every other time the reaction is possible it is mentioned I don't think its that unclear.
I registered just to reply to this topic and why a genie's vessel is unlike rope trick and very much like a bag of holding. The class feature "Bottled respite" is similar to rope trick as they are both initiated effects by the player, but that is not the source of the vessel's power or space, only the means of entering it. The most straightforward distinction to make is that rope trick originates from a player spell you use on an item and has a duration. Bag of holding is an item itself, holding it's power permanently until destroyed. Likewise, the player's vessel is a permanent item with a permanent magical effect. The source of the magic on a Bag of Holding is not defined, and actually neither is the origin of the magic on the magic vessel. "your patron gifts you a magical vessel that grants you a measure of the genie's power" The power the vessel grants you likely is the ability to enter and exit it (Bottled respite), but, like the genie's lamp (efreeti lamp in 5e), the extradimensional space inside the vessel is not necessarily created by the genie's power and could reasonably be sourced from the Weave. Some people have made the argument that the genie's vessel is not a magical object at all, but they would be wrong. The way adjectives work is that they modify nouns. "A Magical vessel" is a vessel (tiny object) "of, relating to, characterized by, or producing magic" (Merriam Webster). I have not been able to find an actual item that is categorized as a "magical object". Rather they get their equipment designation, or "wonderous item" and are listed under groupings of "Magical items". Since you can make your vessel a ring, it would be a magical ring, which is a tiny object for size considerations. Other magical items do mention size or the word "object" without the word "magical". such as the listing of Wonderous Items in the DMG
"WONDROUS ITEMS
Wondrous items include worn items such as boots,
belts, capes, gloves, and various pieces of jewelry and
decoration, such as amulets, brooches, and circlets.
Bags, carpets, crystal balls, figurines, horns, musical
instruments, and other objects also fall into this catchall
category."
Another point to make is what happens to these things when you die. If you die, you cant cast rope trick but the spell will remain until its duration ends. If you die, bag of holding is chillin. If you die, "The vessel vanishes in a flare of elemental power." The quote about the vessel specifically doesnt say it gets destroyed, just vanishes. Implying that it returns to the elemental plane and the genie that granted it to you. The extradimensional space of rope trick will vanish with or without you. The other two will persist with or without you.
Ok so we have A spell that affects an object temporarily, a permanent magical object, and another permanent magical object. They all make pockets of extradimensional space, but two of these are more similar. It is MORE reasonable to assume the bag of holding and vessel would interact to create an astral portal than to assume they wouldnt. This does not make it strictly one way or another because "similar item" is intentionally unclear. There is room for interpretation but it doesnt change the fact that (in english) there is a 51% chance vessel is a similar item, and 49% chance it isnt.
Hope this lines up the logic to a reasonable level for most people. Have fun out there and remember, never cross the streams.
I don't think that it was the intent of the designers to lay a trap with Genie's Vessel. If the warlock (or a 10th level warlock's guest) inadvertently brings a bag of holding into the bottle...I don't think that should result in the infamous clause.
Placing a bag of holding inside an extradimensional space created by a handy haversack, portable hole, or similar item instantly destroys both items and opens a gate to the Astral Plane. The gate originates where the one item was placed inside the other. Any creature within 10 feet of the gate is sucked through it to a random location on the Astral Plane. The gate then closes. The gate is one-way only and can’t be reopened.
Is that really what we want here? Saying that the Genie's Vessel does this because it is "similar" to a bag of holding is quite a stretch. ALL the similar items (Bag of Holding, Handy Haversack, Portable Hole) have this clause in their descriptions...Genie's Vessel does NOT have this clause. Remember that a spell or magic item ONLY does what it says it does. Nothing more, nothing less. I think that bringing a Bag of Holding into a Genie's Vessel should be completely safe. Opening the bag inside the vessel should be safe. Taking things out or putting things in the bag while in the vessel should be safe. Now...if the party tries to abuse this by turning the genie's vessel into a vessel full of completely stuffed portable holes...that would be the time for the DM to step in with a warning. Otherwise, let's not turn the Genie's Vessel into an accidental TPK device. That would just be bad DMing.
Nathair Sgiathach is my co-pilot
Your genie vessel is more like the spell Demiplane, rather than the Bag of Holding. Another creature can't take the vessel and access it, so it's not like a Handy Haversack or Portable Hole. The vessel is more like a Focus for a unique magical effect than an actual magic item in and of itself.
For my table, I would rule that it does not have the explosive interaction with the Bag of Holding.
Thanks! I had not thought of the Demiplane spell analogy. That makes complete sense. I just don't get people who want to torture the rules to make some OP device that was clearly not intended by the game designers. At the same time, I just don't get people who want to ruin someone's play by making ridiculous rule interpretations that nerf a subclass and were clearly not intended by the game designers. And then they want to roll dice for a 51/49% chance of a TPK where no player rule abuse was involved or intended. (sigh)
Nathair Sgiathach is my co-pilot
Call me crazy but there's one small thing I've noticed nobody brought up.
The 'danger warnings' specifically says "When you PLACE...." and the Bottle says 'you vanish and enter....'
All these bags and stuff have a threshold that you are essentially crossing.... where the bottle just teleports you in.... seems like a loophole to me to allow safe use.
Maybe I'm crazy