So, this has turned into armor of ag debate. Sure.
Wellll.....
*clears throat*
In my opinion, warlocks should avoid getting hit in the first place. We're not the squishiest of squishy (wizards be like) but we are still... kind of squishy.
That came out wrong.
Anyways, the spells you have have a range. Hex, for instance, has a range of 90 feet. Stay back at 90 feet away and spam hex. Why should you get closer?
Darkness. The spell warlocks cast to cripple the enemy--and possibly their own party as well. Stay 60 feet away and we are good.
Hold Person. 60 feet range. Stay 60 feet away.
Now, let me ask you this question. Why do we need Armor of Ag?
To tank hits? Warlocks don't do that. To deal damage? Uh, EB! Because we think we're going to get hit? Uh, actually, tell me of an enemy who can hit you from say 60 feet or more away, with tanks in the way.
I'll wait.
Literally anything with 60+ feet ranged attacks or AoEs. That is a very broad category. Also the damage on Armor of Agathys doesn’t take your action, and it gives you temp HP.
part if it is it gets a bolstered rep and vibe from creator content, but most creator content necessarily must favor crunchy combat recommendation. coz you don't have metrics to discuss other things.
like, blue veil might be THE important spell of your entire campaign. it might be your whole character concept. it's universe-breaking. but there's not good common denominators in that spell for discussions that have like, objective frames of reference. so you kinda can only really populate creator discussions with very numbery topics. you discuss forcecage and its duration and damage mitigated.
not in a bad way, that's the use of that content and it's really appreciated and cool. so lower level, mathier combat options get of course more discussion, and we're more aware of it and feel it's more assured.
but yeah as support/utility EB/Toll fellow, if I'm ever threatened in melee it's like, everything went wrong, I'm out of slots and free spells, there's no escape. most of the time i climb something when any stranger breaks the horizon. and I'm one of the more combative party members. avoiding melee is part of why I'm good in a fight. so yeah I'm glad i took ritual spells instead of agathys at those levels coz now they're in my tome and i have literally 1 billion spells.
part if it is it gets a bolstered rep and vibe from creator content, but most creator content necessarily must favor crunchy combat recommendation. coz you don't have metrics to discuss other things.
like, blue veil might be THE important spell of your entire campaign. it might be your whole character concept. it's universe-breaking. but there's not good common denominators in that spell for discussions that have like, objective frames of reference. so you kinda can only really populate creator discussions with very numbery topics. you discuss forcecage and its duration and damage mitigated.
not in a bad way, that's the use of that content and it's really appreciated and cool. but yeah so lower level, mathier combat options get of course more discussion, and we're more aware of it and feel it's more assured.
but yeah as support/utility EB/Toll fellow, if I'm ever threatened in melee it's like, everything went wrong, I'm out of slots and free spells, there's no escape. most of the time i climb something when any stranger breaks the horizon. and I'm one of the more combative party members. avoiding melee is part of why I'm good in a fight. so yeah I'm glad i took ritual spells instead of agathys at those levels coz now they're in my tome and i have literally 1 billion spells.
Improper use of the word ‘literally’. But can we just agree that Armor of Agathys is a good spell, but not great for most warlocks, and stop yelling at each other? #peacecleric
So, this has turned into armor of ag debate. Sure.
Wellll.....
*clears throat*
In my opinion, warlocks should avoid getting hit in the first place. We're not the squishiest of squishy (wizards be like) but we are still... kind of squishy.
That came out wrong.
Anyways, the spells you have have a range. Hex, for instance, has a range of 90 feet. Stay back at 90 feet away and spam hex. Why should you get closer?
Darkness. The spell warlocks cast to cripple the enemy--and possibly their own party as well. Stay 60 feet away and we are good.
Hold Person. 60 feet range. Stay 60 feet away.
Now, let me ask you this question. Why do we need Armor of Ag?
To tank hits? Warlocks don't do that. To deal damage? Uh, EB! Because we think we're going to get hit? Uh, actually, tell me of an enemy who can hit you from say 60 feet or more away, with tanks in the way.
I'll wait.
Bold of you to assume you'll always be able to control the engagement so you can keep that distance. You've never had to do a fight in a room, tunnel, or other such space? As I said a while back, part of the call in taking it is what kind of encounters your DM serves up. It's also good support for a Pact of the Blade build, helping offset the usual gish squishiness and relatively low AC.
IT IS NOT MID QUALITY! It’s 15* damage every time you get hit for an hour! Compare that to burning hands, which is avg. 17.5* damage to a few targets once! Armor of Agathys does so much more damage over the course of the adventuring day. And it doesn’t even require concentration!
*For a level 5 warlock
Burning hands sucking at scaling does not make Armor more than mid quality. It does 15 damage to melee attackers who close on you and are dumb enough to attack the dude covered in frost energy. Normally though its just 15 temp hit points which while nice isn't worth one of my slots when I only have 2.
But sure, yeah, and also, fear is better than thunder.
THE MAIN COURSE cool i did end up taking fear.
follow up, fear worth keeping at higher levels if you add blasty aoe? my initial feeling is keeping for friendly fire situations.
Fear never goes out of style unless your DM starts stacking fear immune enemies on you. The fear effect unless the enemy is immune will be just as effective at level 20 as it was at level 5.
So, this has turned into armor of ag debate. Sure.
Wellll.....
*clears throat*
In my opinion, warlocks should avoid getting hit in the first place. We're not the squishiest of squishy (wizards be like) but we are still... kind of squishy.
That came out wrong.
Anyways, the spells you have have a range. Hex, for instance, has a range of 90 feet. Stay back at 90 feet away and spam hex. Why should you get closer?
Darkness. The spell warlocks cast to cripple the enemy--and possibly their own party as well. Stay 60 feet away and we are good.
Hold Person. 60 feet range. Stay 60 feet away.
Now, let me ask you this question. Why do we need Armor of Ag?
To tank hits? Warlocks don't do that. To deal damage? Uh, EB! Because we think we're going to get hit? Uh, actually, tell me of an enemy who can hit you from say 60 feet or more away, with tanks in the way.
I'll wait.
Bold of you to assume you'll always be able to control the engagement so you can keep that distance. You've never had to do a fight in a room, tunnel, or other such space? As I said a while back, part of the call in taking it is what kind of encounters your DM serves up. It's also good support for a Pact of the Blade build, helping offset the usual gish squishiness and relatively low AC.
Yes for warlocks who plan on going into melee a lot it can be useful. I suspect by a fairly low level you will have better options with your slots still but at least its pretty solid for a hexblade etc.
if anyone feels upset, that's really unfortunate. I'm confident everyone here is trying to measure their language. the tenor of these comments doesn't seem very contentious or personal to me tho, so perhaps consider that most recent commenters might have a less aggressive vibe as they type than you might feel as you read. doesn't mean any feelings aren't real, but might help to assume good intent, to have fun reading other folks' thoughts.
The only negative about it and the only reason to consier another control spell is the cone shape which means you will need to move to/near the front to avoid friendly fire.
That is a significant downside to the spell, but it is the only downside to what is otherwise an overpowered spell for the level.
The only negative about it and the only reason to consier another control spell is the cone shape which means you will need to move to/near the front to avoid friendly fire.
That is a significant downside to the spell, but it is the only downside to what is otherwise an overpowered spell for the level.
Yeah fear is brokenly good. And other than how as you level up more enemies are resistant to fear it remains brokenly good at all levels. I honestly don't know at what level it would not be over powered. Like sure its not at 9th, but it very easily can be better than some 6th level spells, maybe not mass suggestion but most of the rest of them it stacks up really well against.
The only negative about it and the only reason to consier another control spell is the cone shape which means you will need to move to/near the front to avoid friendly fire.
That is a significant downside to the spell, but it is the only downside to what is otherwise an overpowered spell for the level.
The only negative about it and the only reason to consier another control spell is the cone shape which means you will need to move to/near the front to avoid friendly fire.
That is a significant downside to the spell, but it is the only downside to what is otherwise an overpowered spell for the level.
Fireball.
As a spell Fireball can't hold a candle to fear IME. A failed save on fear essentially ends the fight for the guys that failed. Fireball is also often hard to use effectively because of friendly fire.
no, no it's not. It's ONLY while you have the temp hit points..once you get hit and those are gone then the spell ends
To clarify it is once the temp hps are gone, not once you get hit. Most of the time I see AOA used in play it is upcast, lasts more than 1 hit and deals the full damage with each it. Sometimes it is cast and not used at all because you don't encounter an enemy.
AOA is a situationally good spell and it upcasts well. False Life and AOA are priemier spells for a full caster character that wants to be a melee Gish, and of those two AOA is the better one. If you are not in melee or do not expect to take damage it is not great.
On a 6th level slot you will usually get 2-3 hits out of it (dealing 60-90 damage to the enemy), sometimes you will get 0 hits out of it (because no one hits you while it is up), on rare occasions you will get 1 hit (30 damage) or 4 hits (120 damage). That is in addition to the 30hps more you have because of it. Overall that is pretty good. You can also precast it before combat so it does not take an action.
My Bladesinger with a 1-level Warlock dip killed Fraz Urb'luu with an upcast AOA. I nearly killed him on my turn and knew it and I purposely caused an AOO to finish him off.
From what I’ve read, Hypnotic Pattern performs better than fear, but it doesn’t around like you are taking that spell based on your original post in favor of dispel magic. In ways, I’d be tempted to drop dispel magic and just take both, but wince you seem to be the only magic user in your party… well… I’d ignore both and go hypnotic pattern personally. Between the two though… fear is the closest to hypnotic pattern, so I guess go with fear.
ah thanks. that campaign ended but we might dig up the character for a one shot. I never went with pattern, coz that guy was more straightforward flavor-wise, not really a psychic or trickster vibe.
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Literally anything with 60+ feet ranged attacks or AoEs. That is a very broad category. Also the damage on Armor of Agathys doesn’t take your action, and it gives you temp HP.
part if it is it gets a bolstered rep and vibe from creator content, but most creator content necessarily must favor crunchy combat recommendation. coz you don't have metrics to discuss other things.
like, blue veil might be THE important spell of your entire campaign. it might be your whole character concept. it's universe-breaking. but there's not good common denominators in that spell for discussions that have like, objective frames of reference. so you kinda can only really populate creator discussions with very numbery topics. you discuss forcecage and its duration and damage mitigated.
not in a bad way, that's the use of that content and it's really appreciated and cool. so lower level, mathier combat options get of course more discussion, and we're more aware of it and feel it's more assured.
but yeah as support/utility EB/Toll fellow, if I'm ever threatened in melee it's like, everything went wrong, I'm out of slots and free spells, there's no escape. most of the time i climb something when any stranger breaks the horizon. and I'm one of the more combative party members. avoiding melee is part of why I'm good in a fight. so yeah I'm glad i took ritual spells instead of agathys at those levels coz now they're in my tome and i have literally 1 billion spells.
Improper use of the word ‘literally’. But can we just agree that Armor of Agathys is a good spell, but not great for most warlocks, and stop yelling at each other? #peacecleric
Armor of Ag is an OK spell.
That's it.
But sure, yeah, and also, fear is better than thunder.
DMing:
Dragons of Stormwreck Isle
Playing:
None sadly.
Optimization Guides:
Literally Too Angry to Die - A Guide to Optimizing a Barbarian
THE MAIN COURSE cool i did end up taking fear.
follow up, fear worth keeping at higher levels if you add blasty aoe? my initial feeling is keeping for friendly fire situations.
You might find it useful later, but past level 9 it might be underwhelming because it doesn’t scale.
Bold of you to assume you'll always be able to control the engagement so you can keep that distance. You've never had to do a fight in a room, tunnel, or other such space? As I said a while back, part of the call in taking it is what kind of encounters your DM serves up. It's also good support for a Pact of the Blade build, helping offset the usual gish squishiness and relatively low AC.
Burning hands sucking at scaling does not make Armor more than mid quality. It does 15 damage to melee attackers who close on you and are dumb enough to attack the dude covered in frost energy. Normally though its just 15 temp hit points which while nice isn't worth one of my slots when I only have 2.
Fear never goes out of style unless your DM starts stacking fear immune enemies on you. The fear effect unless the enemy is immune will be just as effective at level 20 as it was at level 5.
Yes for warlocks who plan on going into melee a lot it can be useful. I suspect by a fairly low level you will have better options with your slots still but at least its pretty solid for a hexblade etc.
if anyone feels upset, that's really unfortunate. I'm confident everyone here is trying to measure their language. the tenor of these comments doesn't seem very contentious or personal to me tho, so perhaps consider that most recent commenters might have a less aggressive vibe as they type than you might feel as you read. doesn't mean any feelings aren't real, but might help to assume good intent, to have fun reading other folks' thoughts.
I agree with you. No one is being overly aggressive. But let’s think about something more important: building a peace cleric.
Fear is the most powerful 3rd level spell period.
The only negative about it and the only reason to consier another control spell is the cone shape which means you will need to move to/near the front to avoid friendly fire.
That is a significant downside to the spell, but it is the only downside to what is otherwise an overpowered spell for the level.
Yeah fear is brokenly good. And other than how as you level up more enemies are resistant to fear it remains brokenly good at all levels. I honestly don't know at what level it would not be over powered. Like sure its not at 9th, but it very easily can be better than some 6th level spells, maybe not mass suggestion but most of the rest of them it stacks up really well against.
Fireball.
As a spell Fireball can't hold a candle to fear IME. A failed save on fear essentially ends the fight for the guys that failed. Fireball is also often hard to use effectively because of friendly fire.
no, no it's not. It's ONLY while you have the temp hit points..once you get hit and those are gone then the spell ends
To clarify it is once the temp hps are gone, not once you get hit. Most of the time I see AOA used in play it is upcast, lasts more than 1 hit and deals the full damage with each it. Sometimes it is cast and not used at all because you don't encounter an enemy.
AOA is a situationally good spell and it upcasts well. False Life and AOA are priemier spells for a full caster character that wants to be a melee Gish, and of those two AOA is the better one. If you are not in melee or do not expect to take damage it is not great.
On a 6th level slot you will usually get 2-3 hits out of it (dealing 60-90 damage to the enemy), sometimes you will get 0 hits out of it (because no one hits you while it is up), on rare occasions you will get 1 hit (30 damage) or 4 hits (120 damage). That is in addition to the 30hps more you have because of it. Overall that is pretty good. You can also precast it before combat so it does not take an action.
My Bladesinger with a 1-level Warlock dip killed Fraz Urb'luu with an upcast AOA. I nearly killed him on my turn and knew it and I purposely caused an AOO to finish him off.
From what I’ve read, Hypnotic Pattern performs better than fear, but it doesn’t around like you are taking that spell based on your original post in favor of dispel magic. In ways, I’d be tempted to drop dispel magic and just take both, but wince you seem to be the only magic user in your party… well… I’d ignore both and go hypnotic pattern personally. Between the two though… fear is the closest to hypnotic pattern, so I guess go with fear.
ah thanks. that campaign ended but we might dig up the character for a one shot. I never went with pattern, coz that guy was more straightforward flavor-wise, not really a psychic or trickster vibe.