I'm not being disingenuous at all. I'm giving a potential drawback to an interpretation of an admittedly ambiguous language of a class feature. You're the one choosing to focus on that instead of the other downsides I mentioned. I'm going off of experience from the way I choose to run it in games I DM and the games that I'm in as a player where someone has access to Limited Wish.
But hey, the good thing about things that aren't clearly clarified in DnD - you can choose how you want to interpret them, and run your games that way/play in games that run it that way if you want to.
I'd also argue that the feature is not capable of upcasting spells at all. There's no reason to believe it does, as it doesn't use spell slots.
Hmm, I'm pretty sure this one is fairly settled. AFAIK, it's "unofficially official" that you can upcast spells to 8th level using Wish. And if you can do it with Wish, I don't see why you couldn't with Limited Wish.
I'd rule differently. For wish you choose any spell with a base level of 8th or lower and then replicate the effect. For a spell that can be upcasted the effect includes an increased effect based on the spell slot used. So let's take Scorching Ray. It's a 2nd level spell, so it qualifies. The effect is 3 rays at 2nd level and 1 more for each level higher if you use "a spell slot" higher than 2nd. Well, you're using a 9th level slot, so that's 10 rays.
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Opinions on whether or not spells are upcast to 6th level with this feature?
Not really an opinion. Nobody is casting it using a spell slot so the "when using a higher spell slot" effect doesn't apply.
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Opinions on whether or not spells are upcast to 6th level with this feature?
Not really an opinion. Nobody is casting it using a spell slot so the "when using a higher spell slot" effect doesn't apply.
I'd argue it is still opinion; there's no official RAW ruling here (although, again with WotC, it would be VERY HELPFUL if they actually DID clarify things like this, rather than pointedly ignoring people when they ask for a ruling.)
The "when using a higher spell slot" effect isn't relevant here. If you cast Wish via a scroll, or a Ring of Three Wishes, or even via your Mystic Arcanum (read: without using a spell slot, just like with Limited Wish,) then it's a reasonable expectation that you can still upcast lesser spells to 8th level, and I dare say you'll likely find yourself in a rather tiny minority if you argue otherwise.
If a warlock can do it with Wish, I don't see how you can argue against him doing it with Limited Wish.
(Now, if someone wants to argue that somebody had to have used a spell slot at some point in the past with a scroll or the Ring of Wishes, then I'll note that (1) that still doesn't handle casting Wish via Mystic Arcanum, and (2) a warlock could just as easily argue that it's his patron's spell slot being cast in the case of Limited Wish. Seriously, if someone is going to go that far to argue against it, then I'm not sure why they'd even bother allowing the Limited Wish feature in their game in the first place.)
The text reads, in part, "requesting the effect of one spell that is 6th level or lower."
If it's generally understood that a spell upcast to 6th level becomes "a 6th level spell," then I would say upcasting is a given. As a guide, I'd use enemies' resistances to spells, e.g. the rakshasa, whose stat block reads "can't be affected or detected by spells of 6th level or lower." A 1st level spell upcast to 7th level affects the rakshasa; in other words, it can no longer be a "spell of 6th level or lower," because it does affect the rakshasa. Additionally, "When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting." (PHB p.201)
So it seems I could reasonably ask for a 6th level magic missile, because it is, effectively, a 6th level spell. At the very least, it is a spell that has "assumed" the 6th level.
The only hole I see in my reasoning is the inclusion of the words "or lower" in the Limited Wish text, because if spells upcast to 6th level are "6th level spells," you technically wouldn't need those two words if upcasting were intended. However, I think it's reasonable to believe that "or lower" is included merely to convey that you can ask for spells with base levels 1-5 as well as 6. (Saying only "the effect of one spell that is 6th level" would -- for most people -- strongly imply that only spells with a base level of 6 would be available.)
The words "the effect of," in combination with the reasoning above, could also be interpreted to circumvent the "when using a higher spell slot" portion of spell descriptions. "The effect of" a 6th level magic missile would be requestable because it's a 6th level spell.
This, combined with Crawford's tweet about Wish, combined with the identical wording of the feature and the spell (wish: "spell of 8th level or lower"; limited wish: "spell that is 6th level or lower") at the very least presents a strong argument in favor of upcasting.
Thing is the rule about spells "becoming X level" only applies when using spell slots or when a feature or item specifically states "cast at X level" which Limited Wish doesn't. Outside of these "X level spell" refers to the normal / base level of the spell. So, by RAW, Limited Wish does not allow upcasting.
However, RAF you can cast the spell at 6th level even if it was lower. It has no negative impact to game balance and makes it more fun and easier to use. Most DMs would probably rule this way. But it is important to note this is not RAW because some DMs are super sticky about RAW.
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Thing is the rule about spells "becoming X level" only applies when using spell slots or when a feature or item specifically states "cast at X level" which Limited Wish doesn't. Outside of these "X level spell" refers to the normal / base level of the spell. So, by RAW, Limited Wish does not allow upcasting.
That's still not true.
The first line of EpicName's post, as far as I'm concerned, nails that shut:
The text reads, in part, "requesting the effect of one spell that is 6th level or lower."
What we've been failing to consider is that Limited Wish is not actually a feature that allows you to cast a spell. It is a feature where you request the EFFECT of a spell from your patron. That being the case, RAW, there is zero reason to disallow requesting the effect of a 6th-level Magic Missile, or any other valid 6th-level spell.
Wither and bloom would be nice if you got a person surrounded by creatures 6d6 failed con save or half if suceed and person in middle could use up to 5 hit dice to heal. Very niche haha. If you don't consider concentration then summon fiend would be a nice spell.
FYI, I just tweaked the sheet to be easier to use for others (I had tuned it to the character I was using.)
Thanks for the list, some summoning spells cool like summon fiend and just had to add. If they continously fail the save, imagine the damage phantamal killer could do. Granted if reading spell correctly, sheesh they'd have to fail twice just to get that first 6d10 damage psychic damage, but just once after that. Potentially if you go before them it could do 10x(6D10)
Oh, in sage comp talks about does bonus action break Warlocks one with shadows invocation which it says yes because a bonus action is an action so to me... wouldn't that mean you could also use the limited wish on spells that cast with 1 bonus action since that is 1 action?
Which means Tasha's Otherworldly Disguise.
Cast Swift Quiver if you doing pact of blade and have improved pact and extra attack invocation could with a pact weapon Longbow start attacking twice and then twice on bonus attack
FYI, I just tweaked the sheet to be easier to use for others (I had tuned it to the character I was using.)
Thanks for the list, I see a bit of missing concentration spells and just had to add if they continously fail the save, imagine the damage phantamal killer could do. Granted if reading spell correctly, sheesh they'd have to fail twice just to get that first 6d10 damage psychic damage, but just once after that. Potentially if you go before them it could do 10x(6D10)
You're welcome. Yeah, there are probably a lot of other spells that could have been on the list (especially new ones,) but I chose the ones that I thought seemed most useful at the time. (For example, no way was I putting True Strike on there.)
Great spell, cast Otiluke's Resilient Sphere on creature they fail now they enclosed for a minute in a weightless globe. "Similarly, the globe can be picked up and moved by other creatures". You use your bonus action giving yourself flying 30 ft. for 10 min. Grab Sphere fly up with it. Max is falling from 200 ft for 20D6 which you could fly up to 300 ft in that minute hehe. 20D6 is pretty 👍
If 4D6 is 14 dmg avg that would make 20D6 = 70 dmg avg
Sure Disintegrate does 5 more dmg going by avg, but it's not as cool 😁
FYI, I just tweaked the sheet to be easier to use for others (I had tuned it to the character I was using.)
Thanks for the list, I see a bit of missing concentration spells and just had to add if they continously fail the save, imagine the damage phantamal killer could do. Granted if reading spell correctly, sheesh they'd have to fail twice just to get that first 6d10 damage psychic damage, but just once after that. Potentially if you go before them it could do 10x(6D10)
You're welcome. Yeah, there are probably a lot of other spells that could have been on the list (especially new ones,) but I chose the ones that I thought seemed most useful at the time. (For example, no way was I putting True Strike on there.)
I couldn't find a ruling, but the wording sounds like it's the genie casting the spell, does that mean you do not need to maintain concentration if the spell you choose is a concentration spell??
I couldn't find a ruling, but the wording sounds like it's the genie casting the spell, does that mean you do not need to maintain concentration if the spell you choose is a concentration spell??
Your character is NOT casting the spell. Therefore, there is no reason to presume the concentration rules for maintaining a spell apply to him.
I posted this on a reddit thread but I might as well copy it here :)
I know this is an older spell but since I came here researching it and it's certainly still a valid question, hopefully you all will forgive the necro. :) My initial instinct is that they are fairly obviously trying to mostly recreate the 3.5/D20 version of Limited Wish so I'd start there. https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm The biggest takeaway would be the spell can cast any level 6 or lower spell, but the DC is cast as though it were a level 7 spell, because that's what it was... which I'd probably say in this case it would be just "At your spell DC level" which is the closest approximation to what they used previously. The 3.5 version has a limitation of components of 1000 gold or less, and unless my memory fails me, which is certainly a possibility, the only spells that cost more than that of level 6 or lower would be contingency or Leomund's Secret Chest... I'd just say those 2 spells would be GM's call, and I'd probably just base it on the Genie's opinion of the player... if they are on good terms, I'd just let it go through... If not, I'd simply have the Genie say, "Certainly... but with a spell that powerful even a being of my power level is bound by the rules that there must be a sacrifice by the caster... Provide the <XYZ> and your wish is my command..."
The other option would be a fairly high DC Charisma/Persuasion check or something similar with advantage if you get along, regular if you don't have a particularly close or have an antagonistic relationship, or disadvantage if your patron just plain doesn't like you. *Grin* Remind that Warlock why Charisma is their main stat as they bargain. :)
I'm extremely tire so hopefully this makes sense as my brain is still fairly foggy. But I THINK it should be a decent way to handle it. Or at least a good starting point.
I love the idea of it, even the chance of you being able to loose it by chance if you wish for something too powerful. Grant it, I’d be too scared to use ot for something other than spells, but both wishes are still great even for just that.
My only “problem” with it is i could never seem to find it in my options for my character sheet! Not sure what I was doing wrong. Anyway, it doesn’t vibe with me as much as the interesting combination of Celestial Warlock. Plus, I could never decide between which of the genies to pick.
I'm pretty late to this argument but I guess i'd say its one or the other as far as upcasting/keeping concentration. To keep it balanced i'd say pick one.
Either you can upcast it and it acts like a magical spell slot somehow created by your patron that is passed along to you, ok, but if you cast a concentration spell you must keep concentration on it.
Or
Its not a spell or using a spell slot at all, so you can't upcast it, however, because its not a spell and just take affect, you don't have to concentrate on it as if it were a spell and the spell lasts until dispelled, the spells total duration, or unconscious.
Just my thoughts.
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I'm not being disingenuous at all. I'm giving a potential drawback to an interpretation of an admittedly ambiguous language of a class feature. You're the one choosing to focus on that instead of the other downsides I mentioned. I'm going off of experience from the way I choose to run it in games I DM and the games that I'm in as a player where someone has access to Limited Wish.
But hey, the good thing about things that aren't clearly clarified in DnD - you can choose how you want to interpret them, and run your games that way/play in games that run it that way if you want to.
I'm done replying to you on this topic.
Opinions on whether or not spells are upcast to 6th level with this feature?
I'd rule differently. For wish you choose any spell with a base level of 8th or lower and then replicate the effect. For a spell that can be upcasted the effect includes an increased effect based on the spell slot used. So let's take Scorching Ray. It's a 2nd level spell, so it qualifies. The effect is 3 rays at 2nd level and 1 more for each level higher if you use "a spell slot" higher than 2nd. Well, you're using a 9th level slot, so that's 10 rays.
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Not really an opinion. Nobody is casting it using a spell slot so the "when using a higher spell slot" effect doesn't apply.
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I'd argue it is still opinion; there's no official RAW ruling here (although, again with WotC, it would be VERY HELPFUL if they actually DID clarify things like this, rather than pointedly ignoring people when they ask for a ruling.)
The "when using a higher spell slot" effect isn't relevant here. If you cast Wish via a scroll, or a Ring of Three Wishes, or even via your Mystic Arcanum (read: without using a spell slot, just like with Limited Wish,) then it's a reasonable expectation that you can still upcast lesser spells to 8th level, and I dare say you'll likely find yourself in a rather tiny minority if you argue otherwise.
If a warlock can do it with Wish, I don't see how you can argue against him doing it with Limited Wish.
(Now, if someone wants to argue that somebody had to have used a spell slot at some point in the past with a scroll or the Ring of Wishes, then I'll note that (1) that still doesn't handle casting Wish via Mystic Arcanum, and (2) a warlock could just as easily argue that it's his patron's spell slot being cast in the case of Limited Wish. Seriously, if someone is going to go that far to argue against it, then I'm not sure why they'd even bother allowing the Limited Wish feature in their game in the first place.)
Sterling - V. Human Bard 3 (College of Art) - [Pic] - [Traits] - in Bards: Dragon Heist (w/ Mansion) - Jasper's [Pic] - Sterling's [Sigil]
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The text reads, in part, "requesting the effect of one spell that is 6th level or lower."
If it's generally understood that a spell upcast to 6th level becomes "a 6th level spell," then I would say upcasting is a given. As a guide, I'd use enemies' resistances to spells, e.g. the rakshasa, whose stat block reads "can't be affected or detected by spells of 6th level or lower." A 1st level spell upcast to 7th level affects the rakshasa; in other words, it can no longer be a "spell of 6th level or lower," because it does affect the rakshasa. Additionally, "When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting." (PHB p.201)
So it seems I could reasonably ask for a 6th level magic missile, because it is, effectively, a 6th level spell. At the very least, it is a spell that has "assumed" the 6th level.
The only hole I see in my reasoning is the inclusion of the words "or lower" in the Limited Wish text, because if spells upcast to 6th level are "6th level spells," you technically wouldn't need those two words if upcasting were intended. However, I think it's reasonable to believe that "or lower" is included merely to convey that you can ask for spells with base levels 1-5 as well as 6. (Saying only "the effect of one spell that is 6th level" would -- for most people -- strongly imply that only spells with a base level of 6 would be available.)
The words "the effect of," in combination with the reasoning above, could also be interpreted to circumvent the "when using a higher spell slot" portion of spell descriptions. "The effect of" a 6th level magic missile would be requestable because it's a 6th level spell.
This, combined with Crawford's tweet about Wish, combined with the identical wording of the feature and the spell (wish: "spell of 8th level or lower"; limited wish: "spell that is 6th level or lower") at the very least presents a strong argument in favor of upcasting.
Thing is the rule about spells "becoming X level" only applies when using spell slots or when a feature or item specifically states "cast at X level" which Limited Wish doesn't. Outside of these "X level spell" refers to the normal / base level of the spell. So, by RAW, Limited Wish does not allow upcasting.
However, RAF you can cast the spell at 6th level even if it was lower. It has no negative impact to game balance and makes it more fun and easier to use. Most DMs would probably rule this way. But it is important to note this is not RAW because some DMs are super sticky about RAW.
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That's still not true.
The first line of EpicName's post, as far as I'm concerned, nails that shut:
What we've been failing to consider is that Limited Wish is not actually a feature that allows you to cast a spell. It is a feature where you request the EFFECT of a spell from your patron. That being the case, RAW, there is zero reason to disallow requesting the effect of a 6th-level Magic Missile, or any other valid 6th-level spell.
Sterling - V. Human Bard 3 (College of Art) - [Pic] - [Traits] - in Bards: Dragon Heist (w/ Mansion) - Jasper's [Pic] - Sterling's [Sigil]
Tooltips Post (2024 PHB updates) - incl. General Rules
>> New FOW threat & treasure tables: fow-advanced-threat-tables.pdf fow-advanced-treasure-table.pdf
Wither and bloom would be nice if you got a person surrounded by creatures 6d6 failed con save or half if suceed and person in middle could use up to 5 hit dice to heal. Very niche haha. If you don't consider concentration then summon fiend would be a nice spell.
Thanks for the list, some summoning spells cool like summon fiend and just had to add. If they continously fail the save, imagine the damage phantamal killer could do. Granted if reading spell correctly, sheesh they'd have to fail twice just to get that first 6d10 damage psychic damage, but just once after that. Potentially if you go before them it could do 10x(6D10)
Oh, in sage comp talks about does bonus action break Warlocks one with shadows invocation which it says yes because a bonus action is an action so to me... wouldn't that mean you could also use the limited wish on spells that cast with 1 bonus action since that is 1 action?
Which means Tasha's Otherworldly Disguise.
Cast Swift Quiver if you doing pact of blade and have improved pact and extra attack invocation could with a pact weapon Longbow start attacking twice and then twice on bonus attack
You're welcome. Yeah, there are probably a lot of other spells that could have been on the list (especially new ones,) but I chose the ones that I thought seemed most useful at the time. (For example, no way was I putting True Strike on there.)
Sterling - V. Human Bard 3 (College of Art) - [Pic] - [Traits] - in Bards: Dragon Heist (w/ Mansion) - Jasper's [Pic] - Sterling's [Sigil]
Tooltips Post (2024 PHB updates) - incl. General Rules
>> New FOW threat & treasure tables: fow-advanced-threat-tables.pdf fow-advanced-treasure-table.pdf
Great spell, cast Otiluke's Resilient Sphere on creature they fail now they enclosed for a minute in a weightless globe. "Similarly, the globe can be picked up and moved by other creatures". You use your bonus action giving yourself flying 30 ft. for 10 min. Grab Sphere fly up with it. Max is falling from 200 ft for 20D6 which you could fly up to 300 ft in that minute hehe. 20D6 is pretty 👍
If 4D6 is 14 dmg avg that would make 20D6 = 70 dmg avg
Sure Disintegrate does 5 more dmg going by avg, but it's not as cool 😁
Yeah, that spell is just bad haha.
I couldn't find a ruling, but the wording sounds like it's the genie casting the spell, does that mean you do not need to maintain concentration if the spell you choose is a concentration spell??
Your character is NOT casting the spell. Therefore, there is no reason to presume the concentration rules for maintaining a spell apply to him.
That said, some DMs may rule otherwise.
Sterling - V. Human Bard 3 (College of Art) - [Pic] - [Traits] - in Bards: Dragon Heist (w/ Mansion) - Jasper's [Pic] - Sterling's [Sigil]
Tooltips Post (2024 PHB updates) - incl. General Rules
>> New FOW threat & treasure tables: fow-advanced-threat-tables.pdf fow-advanced-treasure-table.pdf
I posted this on a reddit thread but I might as well copy it here :)
I know this is an older spell but since I came here researching it and it's certainly still a valid question, hopefully you all will forgive the necro. :)
My initial instinct is that they are fairly obviously trying to mostly recreate the 3.5/D20 version of Limited Wish so I'd start there. https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm
The biggest takeaway would be the spell can cast any level 6 or lower spell, but the DC is cast as though it were a level 7 spell, because that's what it was... which I'd probably say in this case it would be just "At your spell DC level" which is the closest approximation to what they used previously. The 3.5 version has a limitation of components of 1000 gold or less, and unless my memory fails me, which is certainly a possibility, the only spells that cost more than that of level 6 or lower would be contingency or Leomund's Secret Chest... I'd just say those 2 spells would be GM's call, and I'd probably just base it on the Genie's opinion of the player... if they are on good terms, I'd just let it go through... If not, I'd simply have the Genie say, "Certainly... but with a spell that powerful even a being of my power level is bound by the rules that there must be a sacrifice by the caster... Provide the <XYZ> and your wish is my command..."
The other option would be a fairly high DC Charisma/Persuasion check or something similar with advantage if you get along, regular if you don't have a particularly close or have an antagonistic relationship, or disadvantage if your patron just plain doesn't like you. *Grin* Remind that Warlock why Charisma is their main stat as they bargain. :)
I'm extremely tire so hopefully this makes sense as my brain is still fairly foggy. But I THINK it should be a decent way to handle it. Or at least a good starting point.
I love the idea of it, even the chance of you being able to loose it by chance if you wish for something too powerful. Grant it, I’d be too scared to use ot for something other than spells, but both wishes are still great even for just that.
My only “problem” with it is i could never seem to find it in my options for my character sheet! Not sure what I was doing wrong. Anyway, it doesn’t vibe with me as much as the interesting combination of Celestial Warlock. Plus, I could never decide between which of the genies to pick.
I'm pretty late to this argument but I guess i'd say its one or the other as far as upcasting/keeping concentration. To keep it balanced i'd say pick one.
Either you can upcast it and it acts like a magical spell slot somehow created by your patron that is passed along to you, ok, but if you cast a concentration spell you must keep concentration on it.
Or
Its not a spell or using a spell slot at all, so you can't upcast it, however, because its not a spell and just take affect, you don't have to concentrate on it as if it were a spell and the spell lasts until dispelled, the spells total duration, or unconscious.
Just my thoughts.