If Radiant Soul was meant to worded with IF instead of WHEN then it would written as such. And I think I realize the crux of our disagreement. I am applying a specific rule (in the very specific case of Radiant Souls) while you suggested I am trying to apply it in a general sense. This is not what I have been arguing at all. Outside of trying to trigger Radiant Soul I have made no mention of anything else because in D&D specific rules beats general rules but ONLY in relevant specific topic. So outside of the timing of when adding CHA mod damage is applicable my ruling has nothing to do with all the other topics you are trying to bring up.
Moreover you keep insisting the words if and when are meant to be interchangeable yet I am struggling to find many instances of any ability that uses the words "if you cast a spell" instead of "when you cast a spell". Would you be so kind as to list a few examples of any instances that have such wording.
Ok, I think we are getting somewhat closer to understanding each other...
You say:
(1) "If Radiant Soul was meant to worded with IF instead of WHEN then it would written as such."
and:
(2) "Moreover you keep insisting the words if and when are meant to be interchangeable yet I am struggling to find many instances of any ability that uses the words "if you cast a spell" instead of "when you cast a spell".
You may not realize it, but in your second point, you actually make MY point for me that when can be used interchangeably with if - my point is exactly this: As you say, there are hardly any instances where the creators used "if you cast a spell". That's because in most cases where they mean "if you cast a spell", they simply use "when you cast a spell". The example I used repeatedly is Absorb Elements, but there are many more. In other words: your first point (If Radiant Soul was meant to worded with IF instead of WHEN then it would written as such) is just not true, as you have essentially proven yourself: the creators write when all the time when they mean if.
To make it extra clear, let's spell this example out again: The higher level casting section for Absorb Elements reads like this: "When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the extra damage increases by 1d6 for each slot level above 1st." As you see, when is clearly used in the sense of if, because as we both agree that interpreting it as at the exact moment of would render this spell effect nonsensical / unusable.
Hence my argument that the creators' use of the word when throughout spell descriptions is generally to be interpreted in the sense of if, not in the sense of at the exact moment of. And from that follows my argument that Radiant Soul should be treated just the same, i.e. the when in the spell description is to be interpreted in the sense of if. I see absolutely nothing in the spell description of Radiant Soul that justifies singling it out for special treatment by forcing the meaning of at the exact moment of, instead.
Ok, I think we are getting somewhat closer to understanding each other...
You say:
(1) "If Radiant Soul was meant to worded with IF instead of WHEN then it would written as such."
and:
(2) "Moreover you keep insisting the words if and when are meant to be interchangeable yet I am struggling to find many instances of any ability that uses the words "if you cast a spell" instead of "when you cast a spell".
You may not realize it, but in your second point, you actually make MY point for me that when can be used interchangeably with if - my point is exactly this: As you say, there are hardly any instances where the creators used "if you cast a spell". That's because in most cases where they mean "if you cast a spell", they simply use "when you cast a spell". The example I used repeatedly is Absorb Elements, but there are many more. In other words: your first point (If Radiant Soul was meant to worded with IF instead of WHEN then it would written as such) is just not true, as you have essentially proven yourself: the creators write when all the time when they mean if.
To make it extra clear, let's spell this example out again: The higher level casting section for Absorb Elements reads like this: "When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the extra damage increases by 1d6 for each slot level above 1st." As you see, when is clearly used in the sense of if, because as we both agree that interpreting it as at the exact moment of would render this spell effect nonsensical / unusable.
Hence my argument that the creators' use of the word when throughout spell descriptions is generally to be interpreted in the sense of if, not in the sense of at the exact moment of. And from that follows my argument that Radiant Soul should be treated just the same, i.e. the when in the spell description is to be interpreted in the sense of if. I see absolutely nothing in the spell description of Radiant Soul that justifies singling it out for special treatment by forcing the meaning of at the exact moment of, instead.
I don't understand why you keep bringing up Absorb Elements. The spell description already explicitly states when the damage occurs so it is already obvious when the extra damage is applied when it is upcast. There is no disconnect as you seem to be trying to imply.
When and If can have very different meanings. Let me give an example. "When you go to the store today, pick me up a soda." This means I will get a soda that day. Whereas "if you go to the store today, pick me up a soda." With this wording it is not certain if I will get a soda that day.
I am still waiting for the examples in D&D that say "IF you cast a spell" as opposed to "WHEN you cast a spell." Surely there should be many such examples as you keep doubling down the words IF and WHEN are freely interchangeable.
Why are you so against multi round spells? There is no wording that states that it needs to be the exact second the spell is cast to deal the extra damage. Also, you are ignoring gabriel telling you “As you say, there are hardly any instances where the creators used ‘if you cast a spell’. That's because in most cases where they mean ‘if you cast a spell’, they simply use ‘when you cast a spell’”
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I’m a decent DM and an above average rules lawyer
I have several complete Pokedexes | I may be stupid, but at least I’m not smart!
Stay Paranoid!! My Drummer given title is… Swift as the Dragon
Let’s look at a different example. The Evocation Wizard subclass states: Beginning at 2nd level, you can create pockets of relative safety within the effects of your evocation spells. When you cast an evocation spell that affects other creatures that you can see, you can choose a number of them equal to 1 + the spell’s level. The chosen creatures automatically succeed on their saving throws against the spell, and they take no damage if they would normally take half damage on a successful save.
Delayed blast fireball does not affect anything when it is cast, but I would argue that you would still be able to use this feature with it.
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I’m a decent DM and an above average rules lawyer
I have several complete Pokedexes | I may be stupid, but at least I’m not smart!
Stay Paranoid!! My Drummer given title is… Swift as the Dragon
Why are you so against multi round spells? There is no wording that states that it needs to be the exact second the spell is cast to deal the extra damage. Also, you are ignoring gabriel telling you “As you say, there are hardly any instances where the creators used ‘if you cast a spell’. That's because in most cases where they mean ‘if you cast a spell’, they simply use ‘when you cast a spell’”
Thank you, MonksAreGreat - I am running out of ways to clarify to LonelyMagi why they are running in circles...
Also, great example regarding Delayed Blast Fireball - I completely agree with your interpretation.
"When and If can have very different meanings." Yes, I am aware of that. But when and if can also have the same meaning, in a lot of contexts. I and others on this forum keep giving examples. Those examples are especially relevant because they are in the specific context of spell descriptions on D&D Beyond. You keep ignoring them and claiming that they are somehow irrelevant. Please address them if you want to have a meaningful discussion. I can also quote dictionary entries that prove that when is often used in the sense of if, but I am sure you can use a dictionary yourself.
"I don't understand why you keep bringing up Absorb Elements. The spell description already explicitly states when the damage occurs so it is already obvious when the extra damage is applied when it is upcast." I keep bringing it up precisely BECAUSE the spell description already explicitly states when the damage occurs, which makes it a CLEAR example of when being used in the sense of if in a spell description on D&D Beyond. I have said this many times. I don't know what's hard to understand here.
"I am still waiting for the examples in D&D that say "IF you cast a spell" as opposed to "WHEN you cast a spell." Surely there should be many such examples as you keep doubling down the words IF and WHEN are freely interchangeable." I answered this, as MonkAreGreat pointed out. You have completely ignored my point. Here it is again, with some more pre-amble: No, on the contrary: if the creators are routinely using when in the sense of if, then I would expect to find very few examples of "if you cast a spell". And that's indeed what we find: there are hardly any instances where the creators used ‘if you cast a spell’, precisely BECAUSE in most cases where they mean ‘if you cast a spell’, they simply use ‘when you cast a spell’”.
It all boils down to this:
1) in most cases where the D&D Beyond creators mean "if you cast a spell", they simply use "when you cast a spell".
2) it follows that the creators' use of the word when throughout spell descriptions is generally to be interpreted in the sense of if, not in the sense of at the exact moment of.
3) it follows that Radiant Soul should be treated just the same, i.e. the when in the spell description is to be interpreted in the sense of if. There is absolutely nothing in the spell description of Radiant Soul that justifies singling it out for special treatment by forcing the meaning of at the exact moment of, instead.
Why are you so against multi round spells? There is no wording that states that it needs to be the exact second the spell is cast to deal the extra damage. Also, you are ignoring gabriel telling you “As you say, there are hardly any instances where the creators used ‘if you cast a spell’. That's because in most cases where they mean ‘if you cast a spell’, they simply use ‘when you cast a spell’”
That's the problem right here, when you start saying things like "there is no wording that states". When you start doing things like that then why bother with having rules in the first place.
The way D&D works is based on spells and abilities etc being meant to do what is written. Nothing more and nothing less. If you start using arguments like "there is no wording that states" then you are basically enter the realms of Homebrew rules and it is pointless to have further discussions.
"When and If can have very different meanings." Yes, I am aware of that. But when and if can also have the same meaning, in a lot of contexts. I and others on this forum keep giving examples. Those examples are especially relevant because they are in the specific context of spell descriptions on D&D Beyond. You keep ignoring them and claiming that they are somehow irrelevant. Please address them if you want to have a meaningful discussion. I can also quote dictionary entries that prove that when is often used in the sense of if, but I am sure you can use a dictionary yourself.
"I don't understand why you keep bringing up Absorb Elements. The spell description already explicitly states when the damage occurs so it is already obvious when the extra damage is applied when it is upcast." I keep bringing it up precisely BECAUSE the spell description already explicitly states when the damage occurs, which makes it a CLEAR example of when being used in the sense of if in a spell description on D&D Beyond. I have said this many times. I don't know what's hard to understand here.
"I am still waiting for the examples in D&D that say "IF you cast a spell" as opposed to "WHEN you cast a spell." Surely there should be many such examples as you keep doubling down the words IF and WHEN are freely interchangeable." I answered this, as MonkAreGreat pointed out. You have completely ignored my point. Here it is again, with some more pre-amble: No, on the contrary: if the creators are routinely using when in the sense of if, then I would expect to find very few examples of "if you cast a spell". And that's indeed what we find: there are hardly any instances where the creators used ‘if you cast a spell’, precisely BECAUSE in most cases where they mean ‘if you cast a spell’, they simply use ‘when you cast a spell’”.
It all boils down to this:
1) in most cases where the D&D Beyond creators mean "if you cast a spell", they simply use "when you cast a spell".
2) it follows that the creators' use of the word when throughout spell descriptions is generally to be interpreted in the sense of if, not in the sense of at the exact moment of.
3) it follows that Radiant Soul should be treated just the same, i.e. the when in the spell description is to be interpreted in the sense of if. There is absolutely nothing in the spell description of Radiant Soul that justifies singling it out for special treatment by forcing the meaning of at the exact moment of, instead.
Like I said to MonksAreGreat70 D&D rules are what is written in the description, nothing more and nothing less. You may rule however you wish at your table but when you start interchanging words then you are using Homebrew rules.
The main problem I have with using the IF over WHEN is the timing issues. The "IF" wording just does not give a reliable time frame. For example I will use the Fiend Warlocks level 14 ability which states:
"Starting at 14th level, when you hit a creature with an attack, you can use this feature to instantly transport the target through the lower planes. The creature disappears and hurtles through a nightmare landscape."
If the the word "when" is replaced with "if" then couldn't I activate the feature against any enemy I landed an attack on but escaped prior to me hitting level 14? Because base on all your arguments it shouldn't matter WHEN things actually happened, just the fact that it did is enough.
I know this argument is extreme but the door to this scenario is what I believe will be opened if you interchange the words "if" and "when" whenever you want.
Anyhoo I believe I have spent enough time on this topic so unless you actually back up your arguments with actual examples then I shall not bother replying anymore.
when you start interchanging words then you are using Homebrew rules.
Nobody is interchanging words. MonksAreGreat and I are simply applying a widely used interpretation of the word when. We are applying it in the exact same way that the creators are applying it consistently throughout spell descriptions on D&D Beyond. That is the opposite of homebrewing - it's applying the rules as written.
The main problem I have with using the IF over WHEN is the timing issues. The "IF" wording just does not give a reliable time frame.
That's fine if you have a problem with that. The rest of us don't have a problem and apply simple common sense to the timing question. Like I said before, you can rule in your games however you want, but I object to your claim that your ruling is the only valid one.
For example I will use the Fiend Warlocks level 14 ability which states:
"Starting at 14th level, when you hit a creature with an attack, you can use this feature to instantly transport the target through the lower planes. The creature disappears and hurtles through a nightmare landscape."
If the the word "when" is replaced with "if" then couldn't I activate the feature against any enemy I landed an attack on but escaped prior to me hitting level 14? Because base on all your arguments it shouldn't matter WHEN things actually happened, just the fact that it did is enough.
I know this argument is extreme but the door to this scenario is what I believe will be opened if you interchange the words "if" and "when" whenever you want.
Wow - yeah, that argument is extreme to the level of absurdity. Nobody here has claimed any such nonsense.
Your argument also simply fails, because the spell description clearly states "instantly", explicitly describing that the effect occurs at the instantthe attack hits. So no, you couldn't activate the feature against any enemy you landed an attack on but escaped prior to you hitting level 14, no matter how you interpret the when in this example. No absurd doors have been opened, contrary to your claim.
It would be nice if you would engage with the actual arguments and examples people have brought to the table, instead of building strawmen and then burning them down.
unless you actually back up your arguments with actual examples then I shall not bother replying anymore.
LOL - the irony is palpable. Examples abound, and yet you refuse to engage with them.
However, I agree that this discussion has run its course. Notwithstanding our disagreement, I wish you happy adventures - may the dice be with you!
Well, I’m not sure if having such a long list of replies helped or hurt everyone else, but I think I understand, so thank you to everyone who replied.
For those curious, I ended up changing it back to forcecage. I’ve seen it do some crazy things in plays I have watched and was really just inclined to use Crown of Stars only if the damage was increased. Not sure when or if I’ll get to use it in a campaign, let alone if I’ll finally find a campaign, but i find a lot of enjoyment in trying to make the best build I can, particularly with this Warlock Celestial I am working on. Not to get too off-topic, but I really identify with it.
Anyway, thanks again everyone! Until next time…
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If Radiant Soul was meant to worded with IF instead of WHEN then it would written as such. And I think I realize the crux of our disagreement. I am applying a specific rule (in the very specific case of Radiant Souls) while you suggested I am trying to apply it in a general sense. This is not what I have been arguing at all. Outside of trying to trigger Radiant Soul I have made no mention of anything else because in D&D specific rules beats general rules but ONLY in relevant specific topic. So outside of the timing of when adding CHA mod damage is applicable my ruling has nothing to do with all the other topics you are trying to bring up.
Moreover you keep insisting the words if and when are meant to be interchangeable yet I am struggling to find many instances of any ability that uses the words "if you cast a spell" instead of "when you cast a spell". Would you be so kind as to list a few examples of any instances that have such wording.
Ok, I think we are getting somewhat closer to understanding each other...
You say:
(1) "If Radiant Soul was meant to worded with IF instead of WHEN then it would written as such."
and:
(2) "Moreover you keep insisting the words if and when are meant to be interchangeable yet I am struggling to find many instances of any ability that uses the words "if you cast a spell" instead of "when you cast a spell".
You may not realize it, but in your second point, you actually make MY point for me that when can be used interchangeably with if - my point is exactly this: As you say, there are hardly any instances where the creators used "if you cast a spell". That's because in most cases where they mean "if you cast a spell", they simply use "when you cast a spell". The example I used repeatedly is Absorb Elements, but there are many more. In other words: your first point (If Radiant Soul was meant to worded with IF instead of WHEN then it would written as such) is just not true, as you have essentially proven yourself: the creators write when all the time when they mean if.
To make it extra clear, let's spell this example out again: The higher level casting section for Absorb Elements reads like this: "When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the extra damage increases by 1d6 for each slot level above 1st." As you see, when is clearly used in the sense of if, because as we both agree that interpreting it as at the exact moment of would render this spell effect nonsensical / unusable.
Hence my argument that the creators' use of the word when throughout spell descriptions is generally to be interpreted in the sense of if, not in the sense of at the exact moment of. And from that follows my argument that Radiant Soul should be treated just the same, i.e. the when in the spell description is to be interpreted in the sense of if. I see absolutely nothing in the spell description of Radiant Soul that justifies singling it out for special treatment by forcing the meaning of at the exact moment of, instead.
Gabriel, if I knew who you were I would high five you.
I’m a decent DM and an above average rules lawyer
I have several complete Pokedexes | I may be stupid, but at least I’m not smart!
Stay Paranoid!! My Drummer given title is… Swift as the Dragon
May the dice roll ever in your favor
:) Right back at ya, MonksAreGreat!! Random side note: I LOVE playing monks!!
I don't understand why you keep bringing up Absorb Elements. The spell description already explicitly states when the damage occurs so it is already obvious when the extra damage is applied when it is upcast. There is no disconnect as you seem to be trying to imply.
When and If can have very different meanings. Let me give an example. "When you go to the store today, pick me up a soda." This means I will get a soda that day. Whereas "if you go to the store today, pick me up a soda." With this wording it is not certain if I will get a soda that day.
I am still waiting for the examples in D&D that say "IF you cast a spell" as opposed to "WHEN you cast a spell." Surely there should be many such examples as you keep doubling down the words IF and WHEN are freely interchangeable.
Why are you so against multi round spells? There is no wording that states that it needs to be the exact second the spell is cast to deal the extra damage. Also, you are ignoring gabriel telling you “As you say, there are hardly any instances where the creators used ‘if you cast a spell’. That's because in most cases where they mean ‘if you cast a spell’, they simply use ‘when you cast a spell’”
I’m a decent DM and an above average rules lawyer
I have several complete Pokedexes | I may be stupid, but at least I’m not smart!
Stay Paranoid!! My Drummer given title is… Swift as the Dragon
May the dice roll ever in your favor
Let’s look at a different example. The Evocation Wizard subclass states: Beginning at 2nd level, you can create pockets of relative safety within the effects of your evocation spells. When you cast an evocation spell that affects other creatures that you can see, you can choose a number of them equal to 1 + the spell’s level. The chosen creatures automatically succeed on their saving throws against the spell, and they take no damage if they would normally take half damage on a successful save.
Delayed blast fireball does not affect anything when it is cast, but I would argue that you would still be able to use this feature with it.
I’m a decent DM and an above average rules lawyer
I have several complete Pokedexes | I may be stupid, but at least I’m not smart!
Stay Paranoid!! My Drummer given title is… Swift as the Dragon
May the dice roll ever in your favor
Thank you, MonksAreGreat - I am running out of ways to clarify to LonelyMagi why they are running in circles...
Also, great example regarding Delayed Blast Fireball - I completely agree with your interpretation.
LonelyMagi:
"When and If can have very different meanings." Yes, I am aware of that. But when and if can also have the same meaning, in a lot of contexts. I and others on this forum keep giving examples. Those examples are especially relevant because they are in the specific context of spell descriptions on D&D Beyond. You keep ignoring them and claiming that they are somehow irrelevant. Please address them if you want to have a meaningful discussion. I can also quote dictionary entries that prove that when is often used in the sense of if, but I am sure you can use a dictionary yourself.
"I don't understand why you keep bringing up Absorb Elements. The spell description already explicitly states when the damage occurs so it is already obvious when the extra damage is applied when it is upcast." I keep bringing it up precisely BECAUSE the spell description already explicitly states when the damage occurs, which makes it a CLEAR example of when being used in the sense of if in a spell description on D&D Beyond. I have said this many times. I don't know what's hard to understand here.
"I am still waiting for the examples in D&D that say "IF you cast a spell" as opposed to "WHEN you cast a spell." Surely there should be many such examples as you keep doubling down the words IF and WHEN are freely interchangeable." I answered this, as MonkAreGreat pointed out. You have completely ignored my point. Here it is again, with some more pre-amble: No, on the contrary: if the creators are routinely using when in the sense of if, then I would expect to find very few examples of "if you cast a spell". And that's indeed what we find: there are hardly any instances where the creators used ‘if you cast a spell’, precisely BECAUSE in most cases where they mean ‘if you cast a spell’, they simply use ‘when you cast a spell’”.
It all boils down to this:
1) in most cases where the D&D Beyond creators mean "if you cast a spell", they simply use "when you cast a spell".
2) it follows that the creators' use of the word when throughout spell descriptions is generally to be interpreted in the sense of if, not in the sense of at the exact moment of.
3) it follows that Radiant Soul should be treated just the same, i.e. the when in the spell description is to be interpreted in the sense of if. There is absolutely nothing in the spell description of Radiant Soul that justifies singling it out for special treatment by forcing the meaning of at the exact moment of, instead.
That's the problem right here, when you start saying things like "there is no wording that states". When you start doing things like that then why bother with having rules in the first place.
The way D&D works is based on spells and abilities etc being meant to do what is written. Nothing more and nothing less. If you start using arguments like "there is no wording that states" then you are basically enter the realms of Homebrew rules and it is pointless to have further discussions.
Like I said to MonksAreGreat70 D&D rules are what is written in the description, nothing more and nothing less. You may rule however you wish at your table but when you start interchanging words then you are using Homebrew rules.
The main problem I have with using the IF over WHEN is the timing issues. The "IF" wording just does not give a reliable time frame. For example I will use the Fiend Warlocks level 14 ability which states:
"Starting at 14th level, when you hit a creature with an attack, you can use this feature to instantly transport the target through the lower planes. The creature disappears and hurtles through a nightmare landscape."
If the the word "when" is replaced with "if" then couldn't I activate the feature against any enemy I landed an attack on but escaped prior to me hitting level 14? Because base on all your arguments it shouldn't matter WHEN things actually happened, just the fact that it did is enough.
I know this argument is extreme but the door to this scenario is what I believe will be opened if you interchange the words "if" and "when" whenever you want.
Anyhoo I believe I have spent enough time on this topic so unless you actually back up your arguments with actual examples then I shall not bother replying anymore.
Have a good day you all.
It has been a pleasure debating with you, even if no consensus was reached. May you have luck in your future endeavors.
I’m a decent DM and an above average rules lawyer
I have several complete Pokedexes | I may be stupid, but at least I’m not smart!
Stay Paranoid!! My Drummer given title is… Swift as the Dragon
May the dice roll ever in your favor
Nobody is interchanging words. MonksAreGreat and I are simply applying a widely used interpretation of the word when. We are applying it in the exact same way that the creators are applying it consistently throughout spell descriptions on D&D Beyond. That is the opposite of homebrewing - it's applying the rules as written.
That's fine if you have a problem with that. The rest of us don't have a problem and apply simple common sense to the timing question. Like I said before, you can rule in your games however you want, but I object to your claim that your ruling is the only valid one.
Wow - yeah, that argument is extreme to the level of absurdity. Nobody here has claimed any such nonsense.
Your argument also simply fails, because the spell description clearly states "instantly", explicitly describing that the effect occurs at the instant the attack hits. So no, you couldn't activate the feature against any enemy you landed an attack on but escaped prior to you hitting level 14, no matter how you interpret the when in this example. No absurd doors have been opened, contrary to your claim.
It would be nice if you would engage with the actual arguments and examples people have brought to the table, instead of building strawmen and then burning them down.
LOL - the irony is palpable. Examples abound, and yet you refuse to engage with them.
However, I agree that this discussion has run its course. Notwithstanding our disagreement, I wish you happy adventures - may the dice be with you!
Well, I’m not sure if having such a long list of replies helped or hurt everyone else, but I think I understand, so thank you to everyone who replied.
For those curious, I ended up changing it back to forcecage. I’ve seen it do some crazy things in plays I have watched and was really just inclined to use Crown of Stars only if the damage was increased. Not sure when or if I’ll get to use it in a campaign, let alone if I’ll finally find a campaign, but i find a lot of enjoyment in trying to make the best build I can, particularly with this Warlock Celestial I am working on. Not to get too off-topic, but I really identify with it.
Anyway, thanks again everyone! Until next time…