When would you add the additional damage from Agonizing Blast with Booming Blade?
At levels 1-4, it seems straightforward - it gets added to the additional damage when/if the target moves... although that means that if they don't move, you skip the extra damage.
At levels 5+, however...
My inclination is to add it only when the additional damage occurs after movement, but when compared to the damage output of Eldritch Blast (where it has the potential to be added multiple times, assuming all blasts hit), it definitely feels less than optimal (clearly EB is the way to go, but characters seek flavor, so...).
I think things like this will need clarification. Is it a spell that does damage or is it a spell that enhances your attack, does that distinction matter. See the post i made about agonizing with magic stone.
There are 4(6) ways to read it, I can't say any of them are correct.
1. It is not a cantrip that does damage. It is a cantrip that buffs your weapon, and your weapon effect does the damage. agonizing blast does not work with it at all.
2. It is a cantrip that does damage, either its not a buff effect or the distinction is irrelevant. Both the weapon damage and the booming effect get agonzing blast.
3. It is a cantrip that does damage, either its not a buff effect or the distinction is irrelevant. The weapon damage when it gets extra damage at level 5 and the booming effect get AB.
4. It is a cantrip that does damage with the booming effect otherwise its a weapon buff. Only the booming effect gets damage.
I guess 5/6 It is a cantrip that does damage, either its not a buff effect or the distinction is irrelevant, only the weapon part does damage either from the start or level 5+, the booming effect is not part of it as it is done by a targets movement not the cantrip directly. Though that feels like a stretch.
Thanks to David42 and Tarodnet, I was able to get this sorted - I cross posted into Rules and Game Mechanics for more visibility.
Agonizing Blast reads:
Choose one of your known Warlock cantrips that deals damage. You can add your Charisma modifier to that spell’s damage rolls.
As such, Booming Blade gets buffed pretty seriously by Agonizing Blast as you level up, as it can get added multiple times starting as the cantrip scales.
You brandish the weapon used in the spell’s casting and make a melee attack with it against one creature within 5 feet of you. On a hit, the target suffers the weapon attack’s normal effects and then becomes sheathed in booming energy until the start of your next turn. If the target willingly moves 5 feet or more before then, the target takes 1d8 thunder damage, and the spell ends.
This spell’s damage increases when you reach certain levels. At 5th level, the melee attack deals an extra 1d8 thunder damage to the target on a hit, and the damage the target takes for moving increases to 2d8
At levels 1-4, you add it to the damage roll when the target moves. Not great, but not bad for a melee focused Warlock. Assuming a decent Strength or (more likely) Charisma score and a long sword, however, and you're still outperforming EB.
At levels 5+, however, it kicks into overdrive, as you add it on the initial hit, and then again if the target moves.
By my calculations, Booming Blade with Agonizing Blast has the potential to seriously outperform Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast, especially assuming that the target moves.
Granted, you're in melee, and limited to a single target, but I'm guessing that most Blade 'Locks are there anyway...
My Conquest Pally/Undead 'Lock just seriously updated his combat strategy...
Definitely one way to read it, and I would not be surprised if that is how they go when they finally clarify things.
Lets see though, lets say level 8 you have a +1 rapier and its your pact weapon and you have a 20 charisma. You hit for 1d8+1d6+11. vs eldritch blast 2d10+10. If they move you do better, they don't you don't. Seems fairly balanced to me. Put repelling blast on your booming blade and now forcing movement becomes more likely. Might be an interesting option vs getting extra attacks. My only concern would be warlock dips and multiclass builds with like a valor bard, eldritch knight as they are not giving up extra attacks for this and it feels lame when other classes do your eldritch invocations better than the class they were built for.
1d8+1 (+1 rapier) + 5 (Cha 20) + 1d8 (initial hit of BB) +5 (Agonizing Blast). If they move you add another 2d8+5 (AB again).
If you assume average damage (4 on a 1d8) and that the target moves, you're looking at 19 + 13 = 32 damage.
That's compared to an average of 20 damage for EB, assuming both hit.
Now, there are LOTS of other factors... I'm not saying it's better than EB, but... it's not so easy to choose now.
You are right I put 1d6 instead of 1d8. but my point in general stands EB will do more damage if they don't move though not by much(1 instead of the 2 difference the d6 would have created) if they move booming blade does more damage and by a decent chunk. Given EB is ranged so you will be sometimes getting attacks off when booming blade can't attack at all it seems fairly balanced. I have never seen booming blade with repelling blast or potentially a push mastery or both if they stack, but in my experience the movement part without that happens very rarely. With that I guess it depends on the ranged capabilities of the enemy, where they end up, if anyone else moves to engage them etc. But I'd expect to see it happen more often.
Though this is assuming your DM lets you use old material and booming blade in particular. Push mastery being at will being such a easy combo might be seen as making booming blade too good. When they get around to rewriting these spells I wonder if they will change.
Honestly, I would simply not allow it as a DM. Booming Blade was designed at a time when it could not be modified by warlock invocations. I'd rule that until re-released for this 5.5 edition, it would live in the design space for which it was created.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
That is likely what I'd do as well a lot of spells and features might work better than they should when used in the 2024 framework. Start adding in shillelagh and use a club, your 1 level of fighter/paladin whatever now gives you push mastery, not they are 10 feet back and may need to move to do much of anything or they use a weak attack/do nothing to avoid damage. it seems to give this cantrip outsized benefits.
Honestly my next campaign will likely be a 2024 only game. Too many interactions with old content might throw things off. Even the 2024 stuff I am going to have to either house rule or disallow some stuff. Conjure minor elementals, maybe vicious on nick capable weapons. Or in the case of inflict wounds, revert to 2014, man they did a number on that spell.
The Illrigger class dropped with the new Vengeful Blade cantrip, which is 2024 material.
I’m experimenting with a build that gets two Agonizing Blasts on the one attack: Take Shillelagh as a Pact of the Tome invocation, add AB to that, then while it is active and granting its bonus cast Vengeful Blade, also with AB. At level 5 that’s 1d10 + 10 + 1d8 + 5 on the initial hit and 2d8 + 5 when they trigger Vengeful Blade for a 39 average damage.
i don’t expect the DM to allow it but it’s fun to consider!
Looking for some concensus here:
When would you add the additional damage from Agonizing Blast with Booming Blade?
At levels 1-4, it seems straightforward - it gets added to the additional damage when/if the target moves... although that means that if they don't move, you skip the extra damage.
At levels 5+, however...
My inclination is to add it only when the additional damage occurs after movement, but when compared to the damage output of Eldritch Blast (where it has the potential to be added multiple times, assuming all blasts hit), it definitely feels less than optimal (clearly EB is the way to go, but characters seek flavor, so...).
Is it OP to add the bonus to each instance?
I'm curious as to people's thoughts on this.
I think things like this will need clarification. Is it a spell that does damage or is it a spell that enhances your attack, does that distinction matter. See the post i made about agonizing with magic stone.
There are 4(6) ways to read it, I can't say any of them are correct.
1. It is not a cantrip that does damage. It is a cantrip that buffs your weapon, and your weapon effect does the damage. agonizing blast does not work with it at all.
2. It is a cantrip that does damage, either its not a buff effect or the distinction is irrelevant. Both the weapon damage and the booming effect get agonzing blast.
3. It is a cantrip that does damage, either its not a buff effect or the distinction is irrelevant. The weapon damage when it gets extra damage at level 5 and the booming effect get AB.
4. It is a cantrip that does damage with the booming effect otherwise its a weapon buff. Only the booming effect gets damage.
I guess 5/6 It is a cantrip that does damage, either its not a buff effect or the distinction is irrelevant, only the weapon part does damage either from the start or level 5+, the booming effect is not part of it as it is done by a targets movement not the cantrip directly. Though that feels like a stretch.
Thanks to David42 and Tarodnet, I was able to get this sorted - I cross posted into Rules and Game Mechanics for more visibility.
Agonizing Blast reads:
Choose one of your known Warlock cantrips that deals damage. You can add your Charisma modifier to that spell’s damage rolls.
As such, Booming Blade gets buffed pretty seriously by Agonizing Blast as you level up, as it can get added multiple times starting as the cantrip scales.
You brandish the weapon used in the spell’s casting and make a melee attack with it against one creature within 5 feet of you. On a hit, the target suffers the weapon attack’s normal effects and then becomes sheathed in booming energy until the start of your next turn. If the target willingly moves 5 feet or more before then, the target takes 1d8![]()
thunder damage, and the spell ends.
This spell’s damage increases when you reach certain levels. At 5th level, the melee attack deals an extra 1d8![]()
thunder damage to the target on a hit, and the damage the target takes for moving increases to 2d8
At levels 1-4, you add it to the damage roll when the target moves. Not great, but not bad for a melee focused Warlock. Assuming a decent Strength or (more likely) Charisma score and a long sword, however, and you're still outperforming EB.
At levels 5+, however, it kicks into overdrive, as you add it on the initial hit, and then again if the target moves.
By my calculations, Booming Blade with Agonizing Blast has the potential to seriously outperform Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast, especially assuming that the target moves.
Granted, you're in melee, and limited to a single target, but I'm guessing that most Blade 'Locks are there anyway...
My Conquest Pally/Undead 'Lock just seriously updated his combat strategy...
Definitely one way to read it, and I would not be surprised if that is how they go when they finally clarify things.
Lets see though, lets say level 8 you have a +1 rapier and its your pact weapon and you have a 20 charisma. You hit for 1d8+1d6+11. vs eldritch blast 2d10+10. If they move you do better, they don't you don't. Seems fairly balanced to me. Put repelling blast on your booming blade and now forcing movement becomes more likely. Might be an interesting option vs getting extra attacks. My only concern would be warlock dips and multiclass builds with like a valor bard, eldritch knight as they are not giving up extra attacks for this and it feels lame when other classes do your eldritch invocations better than the class they were built for.
Except your damage calculation is off -
You're actually hitting for:
1d8+1 (+1 rapier) + 5 (Cha 20) + 1d8 (initial hit of BB) +5 (Agonizing Blast). If they move you add another 2d8+5 (AB again).
If you assume average damage (4 on a 1d8) and that the target moves, you're looking at 19 + 13 = 32 damage.
That's compared to an average of 20 damage for EB, assuming both hit.
Now, there are LOTS of other factors... I'm not saying it's better than EB, but... it's not so easy to choose now.
You are right I put 1d6 instead of 1d8. but my point in general stands EB will do more damage if they don't move though not by much(1 instead of the 2 difference the d6 would have created) if they move booming blade does more damage and by a decent chunk. Given EB is ranged so you will be sometimes getting attacks off when booming blade can't attack at all it seems fairly balanced. I have never seen booming blade with repelling blast or potentially a push mastery or both if they stack, but in my experience the movement part without that happens very rarely. With that I guess it depends on the ranged capabilities of the enemy, where they end up, if anyone else moves to engage them etc. But I'd expect to see it happen more often.
Though this is assuming your DM lets you use old material and booming blade in particular. Push mastery being at will being such a easy combo might be seen as making booming blade too good. When they get around to rewriting these spells I wonder if they will change.
Honestly, I would simply not allow it as a DM. Booming Blade was designed at a time when it could not be modified by warlock invocations. I'd rule that until re-released for this 5.5 edition, it would live in the design space for which it was created.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
That is likely what I'd do as well a lot of spells and features might work better than they should when used in the 2024 framework. Start adding in shillelagh and use a club, your 1 level of fighter/paladin whatever now gives you push mastery, not they are 10 feet back and may need to move to do much of anything or they use a weak attack/do nothing to avoid damage. it seems to give this cantrip outsized benefits.
Honestly my next campaign will likely be a 2024 only game. Too many interactions with old content might throw things off. Even the 2024 stuff I am going to have to either house rule or disallow some stuff. Conjure minor elementals, maybe vicious on nick capable weapons. Or in the case of inflict wounds, revert to 2014, man they did a number on that spell.
The Illrigger class dropped with the new Vengeful Blade cantrip, which is 2024 material.
I’m experimenting with a build that gets two Agonizing Blasts on the one attack: Take Shillelagh as a Pact of the Tome invocation, add AB to that, then while it is active and granting its bonus cast Vengeful Blade, also with AB. At level 5 that’s 1d10 + 10 + 1d8 + 5 on the initial hit and 2d8 + 5 when they trigger Vengeful Blade for a 39 average damage.
i don’t expect the DM to allow it but it’s fun to consider!