If a 5th level warlock were to create a scroll that upcasts (like Armor of Agathys), would the scroll, when used, be cast as if using a spell's level or as the warlock's maximum pact level slot? If it is cast at the higher level (e.g. 3rd level in this example), do the costs associated with creating the scroll require time and money for a 1st level spell or for a 3rd level spell?
As a follow-up, can the 5th level warlock cast a 1st level spell, using a 1st level slot (i.e. forego the upcast) for a spell like Hex, for example?
With their limited spell slot capacity, warlock like seems like a class that could really take advantage of the ability to "prep" spells that wouldn't eat into their pact slots.
The PHB doesn't answer that question specifically in Scribing Spell Scrolls about what level it would use apart from the wording "based on the level of the spell". Therefore as your Warlock only has 3rd level spell slots then that is what I would say it was using. Of course your DM may permit a downcast.
The only way to cast Hex with a 1st level slot is if you take a non Warlock spellcasting class as a multi-class, you could then cast it with any 1st level (or other) spell slots from that other classes spellcasting feature.
And agreed, Warlocks would indeed benefit from some scribing of scrolls as often as possible. The rub is they can only cast ones that they have prepared, so have access to a limited supply. Armour of Agythys would be a great use of that.
In my interpretation, I believe that it should use the base level of the spell. Warlocks have a feature which automatically upcasts spells, but that is a feature of the Warlock, not of the spell itself. The wording "based on the level of the spell" does not mean "based on the level you are casting the spell."
The scroll only has the spell, and will use the base level of the spell
After looking at some different takes on this and taking a closer look at the rules, I think maybe the best interpretation is that the spell level for the scroll would be cast like a magical ability on any other magic item; (t)he spell is cast at the lowest possible spell and caster level <DMG 2024>.
The exception for scrolls is noted in the PHB: If the scribed spell is a cantrip, the version on the scroll works as if the caster were your level <PHB 2024>. This confuses the issue somewhat, but I believe that the specific nature of the rule is the key here. They call out that a cantrip is cast at user level, instead of saying the scroll is cast at user level. The omission of any other level of spell implies that those would fall under the general rule noted in the DMG above.
I believe that a spell COULD still be upcast at a higher level, but that would essentially make it a higher level spell, and be bound to the times and costs associated with creating a higher level scroll. Otherwise, the scroll is bound by the spell level and is cast as though it were at its lowest level.
Because if you are having to pay for the higher level spell in time and money, and there is minimal benefit to upcast the spell (for a spell like Mirror-Image or Sleep, for instance), then it would be better to just cast it at its lowest level and save those resources for a spell scroll that would benefit (like Armor of Agathys).
Hex maybe wasn't the best example. You do get additional time, which could be valuable. However, there are numerous other concentration spells (like Invisibility, Suggestion, or Hypnotic Pattern) that may very well supersede Hex, and so, depending on your play style, extending the time for Hex may once again be a waste of your time and financial resources.
You're never going to be scribing Hex at a higher level than 1st anyway regardless of your Warlock level.
From the scribing scrolls section:
Time and Cost
Scribing a scroll takes an amount of time and money based on the level of the spell, as shown in the Spell Scroll Costs table.
Cantrips
If the scribed spell is a cantrip, the version on the scroll works as if the caster were your level.
Note the part where it says "based on the level of the spell." Spells have a level, as shown in the PHB's spells section. "Spell slots" are not mentioned at all. There is no text anywhere in the scribing scrolls section which mentions scribing a scroll based on casting it with a higher level spell slot. ALL casters can use a higher level spell slot if they have one available, simply being able to cast at a higher level is not exclusive to Warlocks.
The part where it says the version on the scroll works as if the caster were your level only applies to cantrips, which scale based on your total player level. Nothing to do with higher level spell slots, because cantrips don't use spell slots.
Is this some kind of omission, do I think that the people who made the rules just forgot about casting spells at a higher level when it comes to crafting scrolls? No, I don't. I think this is completely intentional. Spell slots are entirely irrelevant for the crafting of a spell scroll. How could they be relevant? Crafting a spell scroll does not even expend one of your spell slots.
I agree, as you'll note in the thread above, with a caveat. I would argue that the scroll CAN be prepared as upcast. For example, an Armor of Agathys scroll prepared as though it were a 3rd level spell. As you noted, this is not exclusive to warlock, but is relevant because of their normal play style. And before you argue that the spell must be at its minimum level (which by default I agree with), I would point out this passage in the DMG when discussing the crafting of items:
The spell uses its normal casting time, range, and duration.... (m)any items, such as Potions, bypass the casting of a spell and confer the spell’s effects with its usual duration. Certain items make exceptions to these rules, changing the casting time, duration, or other parts of a spell. <2024 DMG>
In this instance, the warlock (or wizard, bard, or whatever) would craft the scroll as though it were a 3rd level spell, with time and costs associated, as well as requirements to use it. You could make the argument, if you wanted, that this is a "new" spell. Or, this skirts the grey areas of the rule as written, and I believe it abides by the rule as intended, especially when taking "exceptions" into account. There is no "advantage" gained other than that provided by the normal use of a scroll.
You can interpret the rule however you want for any games you run.
The spell uses its normal casting time, range, and duration.... (m)any items, such as Potions, bypass the casting of a spell and confer the spell’s effects with its usual duration. Certain items make exceptions to these rules, changing the casting time, duration, or other parts of a spell. <2024 DMG>
It took me a minute or two to figure out where this text you were quoting came from. It turns out that it's not from the Crafting Magic Items section, but the Activating Magic Items section.
The full text is
Spells Cast from Items
Some magic items allow the user to cast a spell from the item. The spell is cast at the lowest possible spell and caster level, doesn’t expend any of the user’s spell slots, and requires no components unless the item’s description notes otherwise. The spell uses its normal casting time, range, and duration, and the user of the item must concentrate if the spell requires Concentration. Many items, such as Potions, bypass the casting of a spell and confer the spell’s effects with its usual duration. Certain items make exceptions to these rules, changing the casting time, duration, or other parts of a spell.
The sentence right before you started your quote started out with "The spell is cast at the lowest possible spell and caster level..." But again, that text is under the "Activating Magic Items" heading. Here's what it says under "Crafting Magic Items," which is what the Warlock would be doing.
The rules for scribing spell scrolls are in the Players Handbook, which I already quoted in this thread, and there is no mention of casting a spell with a higher level slot in there. A dungeon master can absolutely allow a player to create an upcast version of a spell, but that's a conversation between the Player and DM, as nothing in the PHB supports such a notion. I would venture to say that is very specifically intentional to create a limit on the power of spell scrolls to avoid players getting around a loophole by creating a pile of spell scrolls to be able to cast far more higher level spells in a day than they would be able to otherwise.
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If a 5th level warlock were to create a scroll that upcasts (like Armor of Agathys), would the scroll, when used, be cast as if using a spell's level or as the warlock's maximum pact level slot? If it is cast at the higher level (e.g. 3rd level in this example), do the costs associated with creating the scroll require time and money for a 1st level spell or for a 3rd level spell?
As a follow-up, can the 5th level warlock cast a 1st level spell, using a 1st level slot (i.e. forego the upcast) for a spell like Hex, for example?
With their limited spell slot capacity, warlock like seems like a class that could really take advantage of the ability to "prep" spells that wouldn't eat into their pact slots.
The PHB doesn't answer that question specifically in Scribing Spell Scrolls about what level it would use apart from the wording "based on the level of the spell". Therefore as your Warlock only has 3rd level spell slots then that is what I would say it was using. Of course your DM may permit a downcast.
The only way to cast Hex with a 1st level slot is if you take a non Warlock spellcasting class as a multi-class, you could then cast it with any 1st level (or other) spell slots from that other classes spellcasting feature.
And agreed, Warlocks would indeed benefit from some scribing of scrolls as often as possible. The rub is they can only cast ones that they have prepared, so have access to a limited supply. Armour of Agythys would be a great use of that.
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In my interpretation, I believe that it should use the base level of the spell. Warlocks have a feature which automatically upcasts spells, but that is a feature of the Warlock, not of the spell itself. The wording "based on the level of the spell" does not mean "based on the level you are casting the spell."
The scroll only has the spell, and will use the base level of the spell
After looking at some different takes on this and taking a closer look at the rules, I think maybe the best interpretation is that the spell level for the scroll would be cast like a magical ability on any other magic item; (t)he spell is cast at the lowest possible spell and caster level <DMG 2024>.
The exception for scrolls is noted in the PHB: If the scribed spell is a cantrip, the version on the scroll works as if the caster were your level <PHB 2024>. This confuses the issue somewhat, but I believe that the specific nature of the rule is the key here. They call out that a cantrip is cast at user level, instead of saying the scroll is cast at user level. The omission of any other level of spell implies that those would fall under the general rule noted in the DMG above.
I believe that a spell COULD still be upcast at a higher level, but that would essentially make it a higher level spell, and be bound to the times and costs associated with creating a higher level scroll. Otherwise, the scroll is bound by the spell level and is cast as though it were at its lowest level.
Why would you want that?
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Because if you are having to pay for the higher level spell in time and money, and there is minimal benefit to upcast the spell (for a spell like Mirror-Image or Sleep, for instance), then it would be better to just cast it at its lowest level and save those resources for a spell scroll that would benefit (like Armor of Agathys).
Hex maybe wasn't the best example. You do get additional time, which could be valuable. However, there are numerous other concentration spells (like Invisibility, Suggestion, or Hypnotic Pattern) that may very well supersede Hex, and so, depending on your play style, extending the time for Hex may once again be a waste of your time and financial resources.
You're never going to be scribing Hex at a higher level than 1st anyway regardless of your Warlock level.
From the scribing scrolls section:
Note the part where it says "based on the level of the spell." Spells have a level, as shown in the PHB's spells section. "Spell slots" are not mentioned at all. There is no text anywhere in the scribing scrolls section which mentions scribing a scroll based on casting it with a higher level spell slot. ALL casters can use a higher level spell slot if they have one available, simply being able to cast at a higher level is not exclusive to Warlocks.
The part where it says the version on the scroll works as if the caster were your level only applies to cantrips, which scale based on your total player level. Nothing to do with higher level spell slots, because cantrips don't use spell slots.
Is this some kind of omission, do I think that the people who made the rules just forgot about casting spells at a higher level when it comes to crafting scrolls? No, I don't. I think this is completely intentional. Spell slots are entirely irrelevant for the crafting of a spell scroll. How could they be relevant? Crafting a spell scroll does not even expend one of your spell slots.
I agree, as you'll note in the thread above, with a caveat. I would argue that the scroll CAN be prepared as upcast. For example, an Armor of Agathys scroll prepared as though it were a 3rd level spell. As you noted, this is not exclusive to warlock, but is relevant because of their normal play style. And before you argue that the spell must be at its minimum level (which by default I agree with), I would point out this passage in the DMG when discussing the crafting of items:
The spell uses its normal casting time, range, and duration.... (m)any items, such as Potions, bypass the casting of a spell and confer the spell’s effects with its usual duration. Certain items make exceptions to these rules, changing the casting time, duration, or other parts of a spell. <2024 DMG>
In this instance, the warlock (or wizard, bard, or whatever) would craft the scroll as though it were a 3rd level spell, with time and costs associated, as well as requirements to use it. You could make the argument, if you wanted, that this is a "new" spell. Or, this skirts the grey areas of the rule as written, and I believe it abides by the rule as intended, especially when taking "exceptions" into account. There is no "advantage" gained other than that provided by the normal use of a scroll.
You can interpret the rule however you want for any games you run.
It took me a minute or two to figure out where this text you were quoting came from. It turns out that it's not from the Crafting Magic Items section, but the Activating Magic Items section.
The full text is
The sentence right before you started your quote started out with "The spell is cast at the lowest possible spell and caster level..." But again, that text is under the "Activating Magic Items" heading. Here's what it says under "Crafting Magic Items," which is what the Warlock would be doing.
The rules for scribing spell scrolls are in the Players Handbook, which I already quoted in this thread, and there is no mention of casting a spell with a higher level slot in there. A dungeon master can absolutely allow a player to create an upcast version of a spell, but that's a conversation between the Player and DM, as nothing in the PHB supports such a notion. I would venture to say that is very specifically intentional to create a limit on the power of spell scrolls to avoid players getting around a loophole by creating a pile of spell scrolls to be able to cast far more higher level spells in a day than they would be able to otherwise.