I've got an 8th level Aasimar Chainlock that has had some home brewing. I've only used my familiar for scouting and keeping night watch for my PC.
I'm looking for some creative ways to make better use of the familiar's abilities. One thing I have done is send the invisible cherub (basically an imp but with a celestial angle) up a stone underground shaft to discover what happened to a party member that was snatched by some creatures. So the cherub gets up into this small room and sees our buddy mixed up with 2 spider crab creatures. So I was able to see through the familiar's eyes to get the layout of the room and said to our friend, through the familiar, that I'll be there in a second. Then I cast dimension door as I had now seen the room, and flanked the creatures that took him. Battle ensued and I ended up saving his life.
So how do you feel about having a familiar flank your advisory to give you advantage on the melee attacks? Can the cherub remain invisible while flanking? Like I can tell at the opponent from directly behind him through the familiar to distract him.
I'm think of having him create other distractions during certain interactions like, throwing things around like a poltergeist, slaming doors, billowing fires, blowing out candles, etc as I do not have thaumaturgy.
First off, I don't really like the flanking rules in the DMG. Rather than advantage, I go with -2 AC. That way all the other possible ways to gain advantage don't become obsolete and advantage stacks with flanking.
Yes, an invisible creature can flank.
As far as creating distractions etc go, those would be pretty good examples of the help or improvise action, which would grant advantage (all useless if flanking grants advantage).
I don't see how an invisible familiar gives any flanking advantage or bonus; if the target isn't aware of the familiar, then the target isn't being distracted by the familiar. What am I missing?
I don't see how an invisible familiar gives any flanking advantage or bonus; if the target isn't aware of the familiar, then the target isn't being distracted by the familiar. What am I missing?
An example, familiar makes a loud noise. Since it's not an attack the familiar remains invisible and the opponent is aware something angry is behind it. Admittedly this feels more like the help action to me but technically checks the opponent is aware of a hostile creature across from you box
I'm also against an invisible familiar counting as "flanking". The very first line of the rule states it's two "combatants"; and other than the chainlock's familiar, they cannot attack so would not be a combatant. Now, if you had them attack, thus dropping invisibility and making them a target, I might let you get away with it.
On the other hand, they CAN use the Help action, which would give any ally they choose, not just the person directly across, advantage for an attack. This is also more in line with Action Economy. If just the act of standing in a spot grants advantage, then they would still have an Action to do something else. That seems a little cheap.
That's a very interesting idea. A -2 or something to the opponent's armor class so that you can make use of other advantage types is great. I've asked another questionIn this forum about whether or not advantage bonuses can stack giving double or triple advantage. I understand that rules as written state that you can't get double advantage, but your idea really helps this out. Take for example you have character talking to or engage somehow with an opponent, let's say your warlock is distracting a high level official with his mask of many faces invocation, pretending to be someone of relation to the official. Meanwhile your assassin sneaks in from the shadows for the assassination. The assassin would have advantage for surprise, flanking and maybe having an adversary within 5 feet if there was someone else there also. But a -2 to the targets AC seems quite reasonable and have an advantage rule also applied.
I like it!!
My DM doesn't seem to agree that an invisible creature can flank. He believes that the creature must be seen by the Target of the flanking in order to be able to actually does flank. But does the flaking person really need to be seen? Can my invisible familiar, who can actually take the attack action as it is basically an imp with the pact of the chain and voice of the chain Master invocation, use it's turn to broadcast my PC's voice behind the targets back or in his ear on the turn before I attack, thus making its presence still unknown but delivering a fearsome message to the target.
Let's say my celestial warlock cast booming blade but beforehand speaks through my invisible familiars mouth behind the target saying something like "You're going to be punished for what you have done", then receiving my warlocks attacks. I'd say I would have advantage on this attack yes?
How about this, if the invisible cherub could speak into the targets ear or yell loudly behind the targets back, pickpocket, or take a dagger from the target or something like that. That would make the target aware that something else threatening, is near. I like to keep him invisible because he only has four hit points and he's incredibly useful and it's difficult to come across spell components sometimes.
Ya the warlock is a different case from the normal familiar, perhaps I should have clarified that, but you make a good point worth talking about.
What if someone could argue that it's not ally of target, but rather an aly of the enemy of the target. Would a rogue get sneak attack if the group's plan was to have the familiar in position for the sneak attack rules? Having an ally within 5'.
The flanking rules are optional anyway, so it will ultimately be up to the DM. But especially if the enemy is aware that it is flanked (even by invisible creatures) then it should count as flanked.
Flanking is a contentious rule as it is. What you're describing, having your familiar threaten or frighten a target, is pretty much a classic use of the Help action. A lot of players - a looooooot of players - forget that this isn't a video game, and when you or a critter you control takes the 'Help' action, it's supposed to represent the critter doing something which aids you in your endeavor. "Help" is not a magical buff that exists solely in the game space, it's a name applied to any action the critter can take that makes the life of your warlock easier.
As a DM, I dislike the base flanking rule a great deal and do not use it. Flanking is worth a flat bonus, not advantage, and an invisible creature which is not actively threatening a target would not be considered a flanker. You could flank for your familiar - if you had your cherubimp attack with its toxic stinger it somehow has despite being a celestial baby man, your own presence opposite the target would grant the cherubimp a flanking bonus in addition to the advantage from its invisibility. But a target has to be aware of a threat for that threat to compromise its defenses enough to count as flanking, which is what the flanking rules are supposed to represent - multiple attackers overwhelming and degrading an outnumbered defender's ability to protect itself.
Think of it this way - you don't get to double-dip on bonuses. Your imp does not get the bonus from being invisible and the bonus from flanking AND the bonus from Helping. The imp can reveal itself, join the fight, and give flanking bonuses, or it can stay invisible, be creepy and scary, and offer Help bonuses. It doesn't get to be an invisible untouchable flanker Helper super-critter.
Let's say my celestial warlock cast booming blade but beforehand speaks through my invisible familiars mouth behind the target saying something like "You're going to be punished for what you have done", then receiving my warlocks attacks. I'd say I would have advantage on this attack yes?
There is a big flaw in this plan. Per the description of "Voice of the Chain Master":
Additionally, while perceiving through your familiar's senses, you can also speak through your familiar in your own voice, even if your familiar is normally incapable of speech.
But to perceive through your familiar's senses takes an action!
While your familiar is within 100 feet of you, you can communicate with it telepathically. Additionally, as an action, you can see through your familiar's eyes and hear what it hears until the start of your next turn...
So you would use your action, to make the cherub talk thus you could not also make an attack, losing any advantage you are trying to get.
This is part of why I think you need to stop the whole, "He's invisible, it's not going to use an action, will flank, AND give me advantage". You're trying to pack in too much.
Also, invisible doesn't mean "unattackable". Just that they are at a disadvantage to hit. And with a 13AC, that's not that hard to hit if you're facing off against 8th level foes.
Good point! I've never spoken through the familiar yet so that would have been something that we would have picked up during the game and would have to pause to make a ruling. I totally forgot that.
So the cherub and I can make a plan or a tactic where he talks smack to the opponent on his turn and then I attack on mine.
It seems the best way to make this work from everybody's input here, which I do greatly appreciate, is to have a coordinated strategy in advance of combat encounters, which a party should probably sort out at some point anyway to put their most effective talents to use in the best way possible so one player doesn't step on the other players toes. For example my warlock used to get temporary hit points every time he killed somebody (I think that was called 'dark one's blessing' but we had it as a celestial flavour) but when you miss your last shot and your turn is over, the ranger comes in and takes out the two or three opponents you were targeting with all of your efforts and kills them all at once because he has bonuses to damage everything that has already lost hit points. He got my kills and I lost the temp HP I was needing to make it out alive.
Back to topic, a strategy for the celestial Warlock and his cherub familiar. The Warlock could have the familiar help while invisible, by moving behind the warlock's target in melee range and using the help action and mocking him, trying to remove his helmet, unbuckling some of its armour, trying to steal a dagger, threatening it vocally, pulling down its pants 🤔, while the warlock moves it with booming blade melee attack.
Someone here mentioned they prefer a -2 to AC while flanked as to better reflect the distraction of multiple opponents and also allowing other types of advantage to be applied to the attack. I like this concept.
I've got an 8th level Aasimar Chainlock that has had some home brewing. I've only used my familiar for scouting and keeping night watch for my PC.
I'm looking for some creative ways to make better use of the familiar's abilities. One thing I have done is send the invisible cherub (basically an imp but with a celestial angle) up a stone underground shaft to discover what happened to a party member that was snatched by some creatures. So the cherub gets up into this small room and sees our buddy mixed up with 2 spider crab creatures. So I was able to see through the familiar's eyes to get the layout of the room and said to our friend, through the familiar, that I'll be there in a second. Then I cast dimension door as I had now seen the room, and flanked the creatures that took him. Battle ensued and I ended up saving his life.
So how do you feel about having a familiar flank your advisory to give you advantage on the melee attacks? Can the cherub remain invisible while flanking? Like I can tell at the opponent from directly behind him through the familiar to distract him.
I'm think of having him create other distractions during certain interactions like, throwing things around like a poltergeist, slaming doors, billowing fires, blowing out candles, etc as I do not have thaumaturgy.
What other ways can I use my little baby buddy?
First off, I don't really like the flanking rules in the DMG. Rather than advantage, I go with -2 AC. That way all the other possible ways to gain advantage don't become obsolete and advantage stacks with flanking.
Yes, an invisible creature can flank.
As far as creating distractions etc go, those would be pretty good examples of the help or improvise action, which would grant advantage (all useless if flanking grants advantage).
I don't see how an invisible familiar gives any flanking advantage or bonus; if the target isn't aware of the familiar, then the target isn't being distracted by the familiar. What am I missing?
An example, familiar makes a loud noise. Since it's not an attack the familiar remains invisible and the opponent is aware something angry is behind it. Admittedly this feels more like the help action to me but technically checks the opponent is aware of a hostile creature across from you box
I'm also against an invisible familiar counting as "flanking". The very first line of the rule states it's two "combatants"; and other than the chainlock's familiar, they cannot attack so would not be a combatant. Now, if you had them attack, thus dropping invisibility and making them a target, I might let you get away with it.
On the other hand, they CAN use the Help action, which would give any ally they choose, not just the person directly across, advantage for an attack. This is also more in line with Action Economy. If just the act of standing in a spot grants advantage, then they would still have an Action to do something else. That seems a little cheap.
That's a very interesting idea. A -2 or something to the opponent's armor class so that you can make use of other advantage types is great. I've asked another questionIn this forum about whether or not advantage bonuses can stack giving double or triple advantage. I understand that rules as written state that you can't get double advantage, but your idea really helps this out. Take for example you have character talking to or engage somehow with an opponent, let's say your warlock is distracting a high level official with his mask of many faces invocation, pretending to be someone of relation to the official. Meanwhile your assassin sneaks in from the shadows for the assassination. The assassin would have advantage for surprise, flanking and maybe having an adversary within 5 feet if there was someone else there also. But a -2 to the targets AC seems quite reasonable and have an advantage rule also applied.
I like it!!
My DM doesn't seem to agree that an invisible creature can flank. He believes that the creature must be seen by the Target of the flanking in order to be able to actually does flank. But does the flaking person really need to be seen? Can my invisible familiar, who can actually take the attack action as it is basically an imp with the pact of the chain and voice of the chain Master invocation, use it's turn to broadcast my PC's voice behind the targets back or in his ear on the turn before I attack, thus making its presence still unknown but delivering a fearsome message to the target.
Let's say my celestial warlock cast booming blade but beforehand speaks through my invisible familiars mouth behind the target saying something like "You're going to be punished for what you have done", then receiving my warlocks attacks. I'd say I would have advantage on this attack yes?
How about this, if the invisible cherub could speak into the targets ear or yell loudly behind the targets back, pickpocket, or take a dagger from the target or something like that. That would make the target aware that something else threatening, is near. I like to keep him invisible because he only has four hit points and he's incredibly useful and it's difficult to come across spell components sometimes.
Ya man. That's what I'm getting at.
Ya the warlock is a different case from the normal familiar, perhaps I should have clarified that, but you make a good point worth talking about.
What if someone could argue that it's not ally of target, but rather an aly of the enemy of the target. Would a rogue get sneak attack if the group's plan was to have the familiar in position for the sneak attack rules? Having an ally within 5'.
The flanking rules are optional anyway, so it will ultimately be up to the DM. But especially if the enemy is aware that it is flanked (even by invisible creatures) then it should count as flanked.
Flanking is a contentious rule as it is. What you're describing, having your familiar threaten or frighten a target, is pretty much a classic use of the Help action. A lot of players - a looooooot of players - forget that this isn't a video game, and when you or a critter you control takes the 'Help' action, it's supposed to represent the critter doing something which aids you in your endeavor. "Help" is not a magical buff that exists solely in the game space, it's a name applied to any action the critter can take that makes the life of your warlock easier.
As a DM, I dislike the base flanking rule a great deal and do not use it. Flanking is worth a flat bonus, not advantage, and an invisible creature which is not actively threatening a target would not be considered a flanker. You could flank for your familiar - if you had your cherubimp attack with its toxic stinger it somehow has despite being a celestial baby man, your own presence opposite the target would grant the cherubimp a flanking bonus in addition to the advantage from its invisibility. But a target has to be aware of a threat for that threat to compromise its defenses enough to count as flanking, which is what the flanking rules are supposed to represent - multiple attackers overwhelming and degrading an outnumbered defender's ability to protect itself.
Think of it this way - you don't get to double-dip on bonuses. Your imp does not get the bonus from being invisible and the bonus from flanking AND the bonus from Helping. The imp can reveal itself, join the fight, and give flanking bonuses, or it can stay invisible, be creepy and scary, and offer Help bonuses. It doesn't get to be an invisible untouchable flanker Helper super-critter.
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There is a big flaw in this plan. Per the description of "Voice of the Chain Master":
But to perceive through your familiar's senses takes an action!
So you would use your action, to make the cherub talk thus you could not also make an attack, losing any advantage you are trying to get.
This is part of why I think you need to stop the whole, "He's invisible, it's not going to use an action, will flank, AND give me advantage". You're trying to pack in too much.
Also, invisible doesn't mean "unattackable". Just that they are at a disadvantage to hit. And with a 13AC, that's not that hard to hit if you're facing off against 8th level foes.
Don't forget the imp(cherub) is capable of speaking languages, you only need to use the action if you want it to be your voice
Good point! I've never spoken through the familiar yet so that would have been something that we would have picked up during the game and would have to pause to make a ruling. I totally forgot that.
So the cherub and I can make a plan or a tactic where he talks smack to the opponent on his turn and then I attack on mine.
Do you suppose that is plausible?
Yes, good point!
Great comment Yurie1453!
It seems the best way to make this work from everybody's input here, which I do greatly appreciate, is to have a coordinated strategy in advance of combat encounters, which a party should probably sort out at some point anyway to put their most effective talents to use in the best way possible so one player doesn't step on the other players toes. For example my warlock used to get temporary hit points every time he killed somebody (I think that was called 'dark one's blessing' but we had it as a celestial flavour) but when you miss your last shot and your turn is over, the ranger comes in and takes out the two or three opponents you were targeting with all of your efforts and kills them all at once because he has bonuses to damage everything that has already lost hit points. He got my kills and I lost the temp HP I was needing to make it out alive.
Back to topic, a strategy for the celestial Warlock and his cherub familiar. The Warlock could have the familiar help while invisible, by moving behind the warlock's target in melee range and using the help action and mocking him, trying to remove his helmet, unbuckling some of its armour, trying to steal a dagger, threatening it vocally, pulling down its pants 🤔, while the warlock moves it with booming blade melee attack.
Someone here mentioned they prefer a -2 to AC while flanked as to better reflect the distraction of multiple opponents and also allowing other types of advantage to be applied to the attack. I like this concept.