I have to disagree about familiars not attacking. I have a divine soul hexblade sorlock. I maxed charisma and for my second feat will choose inspiring leader. Beginning of day I cast mage armor and twin on the bard and Imp. Then Aid on myself, imp and bard again. With these spells and inspiring leader the Imp has 15 max hp and 14 temp hp and an AC of 16. Investment of the chainmaster has now made Battle Imps even more viable. Already resistant to a lot now they can resist everything using your reaction. Gain a swim speed. Magical sting for 1d4+3 damage and uses my 17 save dc for the 3d6 poison damage.
Now here's the interesting part: Warlocks can, when they take the attack action, forgo one of their own attacks to allow their familiars to make an attack of their own using their REACTION. With investment of chainmaster we can now also use our bonus action to command them to take the ATTACK ACTION. Let's say I'm hasted, now I have a use for extra hasted attack, I forgo it so may imp can use his reaction to attack then use my bonus action to command him to take the attack action and then make my own spell attack :) FYI 2 EB(2d10+10) + imps 2 attacks(2d4+6+ 6d6)
Thematically I kind of favor the Psudodragon dragon as well and its poison ability could be clutch against a boss if you're not doing the whole darkness thing(although it does have 10 foot blindsight) but for combat the Imp just seems more reliable for consistent damage. For roleplaying though the Psudodragon and Sprite definitely have an edge over the Imp. It's too bad the imp is just over all better, they kind of force you to pick it to be the most effective. Same as the owl for regular familiars.
Also Magic Stone is super underrated in my opinion especially if against creatures immune to poison. Not sure how a familiars proficiency bonus would work but if we assume caster has maxed Cha and familiar has a proficiency bonus of 2 then the you could, as a bonus action, cast magic stone through the familiar so it has the stones itself then it could use them to attack for 1d6+5 magical bludgeoning damage with an attack bonus of +7(assuming a prof of +2)
Yeah the imp and owl are a little too far ahead of the pack for me. The pseudodragon poison is interesting but an enemy basically has a to roll a 1 to fail. Really wanted this to be the pseudodragon's niche. That imp tho
I was hoping the pseudodragon would be a better option with the new chain pact invocation but it looks like imp is still the best.
I think sprite got a boost, failing a DC 10 con save by 5 is a stretch but failing a DC 15+ save by 5 or more isn't as big of a stretch. Still not as good as the imp, but with its higher stealth and a potential knock out shot it may be impressive, combine it with mind sliver and you have a real shot of 1 koing pretty potent enemies. I give the sprite the edge of pseudodragon here as it will be invisible when it first attacks giving it a better chance of actually hitting.
OH man! I completely missed the text on Investment of the Chain Master that changes DC's. That applies to the pseudodragon too, not just the sprite. Since they have what is mechanically the same poison, it's a matter of trading damage for range. Hmm. I like having a more consistent fail state, but I also like the idea of keeping the familiar out of harm's way. Sprite is probably better.
Mind Sliver is a really nice addition to a warlock trying to force that save, great call.
Raykoth Maugrim: That is an awesome use for haste. Too bad a warlock patron can't pick it up.
I'd think the sprite has a bigger success rate as it is a two part attack, the attack roll and the save. They both are +4 but the sprite will likely have advantage as it attacks from invisible. -1 Dc on the save but advantage on the attack.
I don't understand your first point. The pseudodragon and sprite both make an attack roll to hit with their attack and then the enemy rolls to save poison.
Yes the sprite can set up advantage, for an attack that does 1 damage.
Pseudodragon is not good damage but you don't have to do a lot to beat 1 damage.
If you choose sprite then you're saying damage doesn't matter and all you want is to put people asleep. Pseudodragon is a middle ground between imp and sprite.
Also the Psudodragon dragons poison is more potent (1 hour vs Sprites 1 minute) and it has a better chance of incapacitating as well( fail the con save by 5 or more vs having to actually roll a 5 or less)
I don't understand your first point. The pseudodragon and sprite both make an attack roll to hit with their attack and then the enemy rolls to save poison.
Yes the sprite can set up advantage, for an attack that does 1 damage.
Pseudodragon is not good damage but you don't have to do a lot to beat 1 damage.
If you choose sprite then you're saying damage doesn't matter and all you want is to put people asleep. Pseudodragon is a middle ground between imp and sprite.
After a few levels the level of damage you'd get from pseudo dragons tail doesn't matter, it is all about the sleep effect. And in the vast majority of cases 1 minute or 1 hour is irrelevant. And again actually hitting with the attack is important there attack is only +4 to hit, so advantage can really help here.
I'll freely admit I missed the wording change on sprites dart of the knockout being 5 or less instead of miss it by 5. I wonder if that was intentional as it is the same number as if it were missed than 5.
With that, yeah psuedodragon is the better choice for this.
Edit to add well maybe. Technically your invocation changes the DC to your stat based one, with the pseduodragons -5 it might keep it at spell Dc -5, with the sprite it might change both to your full save DC as it just has 2 separate DCs not one with a modifier. One for the Sage I guess. Double edit, and I realize it doesn't phrase the 2nd as a DC, but round about making it an effective Dc by saying if the roll is 5 or less. It's a problem with 5e in general they don't have a solid key word system and people are trying to fumble around to figure out is that a Save DC, what is that?
You're correct MyDudeicus I should have given more value to the advantage helping you land the hit and therefore the poison.
I think we have a case of general vs. specific here. The sprite poison specifically says 5 or less, so it doesn't matter what the DC changes to.
I think this was done on purpose for balance. The sprite's poison is attached to a ranged attack and the sprite gets at-will invisibility. It is much easier to spam the sprite's poison because you can keep them safe at a distance. The pseudodragon doesn't have these qualities and so was given a more powerful attack and poison.
That is probably right, but since they refuse to standardize things its so hard to make judgment calls that will match what the rule will actually end up as.
Until this invocation it was something that didn't really matter much. Imp was by far the best option, and these two creatures they didn't really have to consider the balance on it for outside their CR which is just a GM tool. As 11-5 was 6, and just saying 5 was well 5 so pretty much identical. After this feat the sprites poison would remain lame and mostly useless while the pseudo dragons would actually be useful.
Sometimes when I see these kinds of abilities that are super similar but are worded a little differently it makes me feel like they try to keep design space open for future interactions. Like maybe they knew that eventually they would want to give the warlock a way to get offensive with their chain pact familiar and wanted the designs of the familiars to lend to more a more diverse set of options. Kind of like when they design magic the gathering sets and plan for future sets to have mechanics that tie back to mechanics from multiple sets ago.
Who knows though
Even with the boost in DC to better land sleep, I just can't shake that the imp is still easily the best option for a Chain Pact with an offensive familiar. It would be cool to get a new familiar option to shake up the paradigm.
I took investment of the chain master on my character, just thought it really extends how long its useful for the familiar to attack. 1 the obvious you can attack and then bonus action have it attack. 2. on more remote missions where your eldritch blasts are not the better choice for your action the imp now gets two attacks. Use you bonus action to get it to attack and then your action to get it to use its reaction to attack. (1d4+3 with a 3d6 DC(yourDC) poison)x2 a round is pretty effective at low/mid levels. I just wish poisons could crit, with 2 attacks coming out of invisibility with advantage that's a lot of 5% chances.
Get the Imp to give itself magic stones, 1d6+5 magical bludgeoning damage with a +7 to hit is not bad for a bonus action that used only a bonus action cantrip the round before. Also, this way the imp is attacking from range and doesn't put itself in much danger. Get three stones per casting, on the 4th round warlock casts magic stone, gives to imp who is close by, imp goes invisible with its action and next three rounds repeat.
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I have to disagree about familiars not attacking. I have a divine soul hexblade sorlock. I maxed charisma and for my second feat will choose inspiring leader. Beginning of day I cast mage armor and twin on the bard and Imp. Then Aid on myself, imp and bard again. With these spells and inspiring leader the Imp has 15 max hp and 14 temp hp and an AC of 16. Investment of the chainmaster has now made Battle Imps even more viable. Already resistant to a lot now they can resist everything using your reaction. Gain a swim speed. Magical sting for 1d4+3 damage and uses my 17 save dc for the 3d6 poison damage.
Now here's the interesting part: Warlocks can, when they take the attack action, forgo one of their own attacks to allow their familiars to make an attack of their own using their REACTION. With investment of chainmaster we can now also use our bonus action to command them to take the ATTACK ACTION. Let's say I'm hasted, now I have a use for extra hasted attack, I forgo it so may imp can use his reaction to attack then use my bonus action to command him to take the attack action and then make my own spell attack :) FYI 2 EB(2d10+10) + imps 2 attacks(2d4+6+ 6d6)
I'm on level 9, sorcerer 5, warlock 4
Yeah, now that Tasha's is out, Warlocks have a gamechanger in their invocations.
I was hoping the pseudodragon would be a better option with the new chain pact invocation but it looks like imp is still the best.
Thematically I kind of favor the Psudodragon dragon as well and its poison ability could be clutch against a boss if you're not doing the whole darkness thing(although it does have 10 foot blindsight) but for combat the Imp just seems more reliable for consistent damage. For roleplaying though the Psudodragon and Sprite definitely have an edge over the Imp. It's too bad the imp is just over all better, they kind of force you to pick it to be the most effective. Same as the owl for regular familiars.
Also Magic Stone is super underrated in my opinion especially if against creatures immune to poison. Not sure how a familiars proficiency bonus would work but if we assume caster has maxed Cha and familiar has a proficiency bonus of 2 then the you could, as a bonus action, cast magic stone through the familiar so it has the stones itself then it could use them to attack for 1d6+5 magical bludgeoning damage with an attack bonus of +7(assuming a prof of +2)
Yeah the imp and owl are a little too far ahead of the pack for me. The pseudodragon poison is interesting but an enemy basically has a to roll a 1 to fail. Really wanted this to be the pseudodragon's niche. That imp tho
I think sprite got a boost, failing a DC 10 con save by 5 is a stretch but failing a DC 15+ save by 5 or more isn't as big of a stretch. Still not as good as the imp, but with its higher stealth and a potential knock out shot it may be impressive, combine it with mind sliver and you have a real shot of 1 koing pretty potent enemies. I give the sprite the edge of pseudodragon here as it will be invisible when it first attacks giving it a better chance of actually hitting.
OH man! I completely missed the text on Investment of the Chain Master that changes DC's. That applies to the pseudodragon too, not just the sprite. Since they have what is mechanically the same poison, it's a matter of trading damage for range. Hmm. I like having a more consistent fail state, but I also like the idea of keeping the familiar out of harm's way. Sprite is probably better.
Mind Sliver is a really nice addition to a warlock trying to force that save, great call.
Raykoth Maugrim: That is an awesome use for haste. Too bad a warlock patron can't pick it up.
I'd think the sprite has a bigger success rate as it is a two part attack, the attack roll and the save. They both are +4 but the sprite will likely have advantage as it attacks from invisible. -1 Dc on the save but advantage on the attack.
I don't understand your first point. The pseudodragon and sprite both make an attack roll to hit with their attack and then the enemy rolls to save poison.
Yes the sprite can set up advantage, for an attack that does 1 damage.
Pseudodragon is not good damage but you don't have to do a lot to beat 1 damage.
If you choose sprite then you're saying damage doesn't matter and all you want is to put people asleep. Pseudodragon is a middle ground between imp and sprite.
Also the Psudodragon dragons poison is more potent (1 hour vs Sprites 1 minute) and it has a better chance of incapacitating as well( fail the con save by 5 or more vs having to actually roll a 5 or less)
Oh yeah I missed those nuances in the sprite's poison text.
Sprite looks really bad now honestly. Worse poison and less damage? No thanks
After a few levels the level of damage you'd get from pseudo dragons tail doesn't matter, it is all about the sleep effect. And in the vast majority of cases 1 minute or 1 hour is irrelevant. And again actually hitting with the attack is important there attack is only +4 to hit, so advantage can really help here.
I'll freely admit I missed the wording change on sprites dart of the knockout being 5 or less instead of miss it by 5. I wonder if that was intentional as it is the same number as if it were missed than 5.
With that, yeah psuedodragon is the better choice for this.
Edit to add well maybe. Technically your invocation changes the DC to your stat based one, with the pseduodragons -5 it might keep it at spell Dc -5, with the sprite it might change both to your full save DC as it just has 2 separate DCs not one with a modifier. One for the Sage I guess. Double edit, and I realize it doesn't phrase the 2nd as a DC, but round about making it an effective Dc by saying if the roll is 5 or less. It's a problem with 5e in general they don't have a solid key word system and people are trying to fumble around to figure out is that a Save DC, what is that?
You're correct MyDudeicus I should have given more value to the advantage helping you land the hit and therefore the poison.
I think we have a case of general vs. specific here. The sprite poison specifically says 5 or less, so it doesn't matter what the DC changes to.
I think this was done on purpose for balance. The sprite's poison is attached to a ranged attack and the sprite gets at-will invisibility. It is much easier to spam the sprite's poison because you can keep them safe at a distance. The pseudodragon doesn't have these qualities and so was given a more powerful attack and poison.
That is probably right, but since they refuse to standardize things its so hard to make judgment calls that will match what the rule will actually end up as.
Until this invocation it was something that didn't really matter much. Imp was by far the best option, and these two creatures they didn't really have to consider the balance on it for outside their CR which is just a GM tool. As 11-5 was 6, and just saying 5 was well 5 so pretty much identical. After this feat the sprites poison would remain lame and mostly useless while the pseudo dragons would actually be useful.
Sometimes when I see these kinds of abilities that are super similar but are worded a little differently it makes me feel like they try to keep design space open for future interactions. Like maybe they knew that eventually they would want to give the warlock a way to get offensive with their chain pact familiar and wanted the designs of the familiars to lend to more a more diverse set of options. Kind of like when they design magic the gathering sets and plan for future sets to have mechanics that tie back to mechanics from multiple sets ago.
Who knows though
Even with the boost in DC to better land sleep, I just can't shake that the imp is still easily the best option for a Chain Pact with an offensive familiar. It would be cool to get a new familiar option to shake up the paradigm.
I took investment of the chain master on my character, just thought it really extends how long its useful for the familiar to attack. 1 the obvious you can attack and then bonus action have it attack. 2. on more remote missions where your eldritch blasts are not the better choice for your action the imp now gets two attacks. Use you bonus action to get it to attack and then your action to get it to use its reaction to attack. (1d4+3 with a 3d6 DC(yourDC) poison)x2 a round is pretty effective at low/mid levels. I just wish poisons could crit, with 2 attacks coming out of invisibility with advantage that's a lot of 5% chances.
Or you could, I guess, drop a bag full of acid on someone using your bonus action to command the Imp. Almost nobody is resistant to acid damage.
Get the Imp to give itself magic stones, 1d6+5 magical bludgeoning damage with a +7 to hit is not bad for a bonus action that used only a bonus action cantrip the round before. Also, this way the imp is attacking from range and doesn't put itself in much danger. Get three stones per casting, on the 4th round warlock casts magic stone, gives to imp who is close by, imp goes invisible with its action and next three rounds repeat.