Despite to be really MAD and assuming i have the stat (rolled) for make it playable (15,15,14,13,12,11, if i go half elf i can get 13 str, 16 dex, 14 con, 17 int, 11 wis, 13 cha, getting elven accuracy and +1 int at lv 4), is it a worth dip? Adding smites, defence or dueling fighting style and some heal to anything with extra attack and full slot's progression seem already unique, plus this spells are from the wizard spell list and he is still capable to get 9th lv spells (i can't imagine everything he can do from lv 15 with simulacrum and contingency for exemple). Compared with the sorcadin with extra attack it have more slots, higher lv spells, earlier spells and better spell's selection, plus he add also Booming Blade to one attack, however it have probably lower saves and he is more proficiency bonus dependent as Bladesong won't work all day till hight lv's, but defence fighting style and the shield + Shield probably make he decent in melee in minor fights, however the lack of con saves hurt really too much (warcaster at lv 10? Than i was thinking maybe +2 INT at lv 14, so the progression would be something like BS 6/Paladin 2/BS x).
On paper, the wizardin works. But in practice, you find that it's mainly a bladesinger that can smite.
So, when you look at the bladesinger in general, you find that it works fantastic as a melee fighter at earlier levels, and it's pretty much encouraged to become a traditional spellcaster at higher levels. This is due to a shift in power in your own spells, along with increased risk to actually being in melee and monsters more or less stop caring about AC. Think of it this way, even if you had a lvl 20 wizard with an extra two levels in paladin (an impossible lvl 22 lol), your actions and spell slots are better spent on casting spells than attacking.
So, there's a sweet spot to enjoying melee. Any time you multiclass bladesinger, that sweet spot is smaller to hit.
I don't think it's worth the growing pains of multiclassing for something you'll enjoy for a very short time.
On paper, the wizardin works. But in practice, you find that it's mainly a bladesinger that can smite.
So, when you look at the bladesinger in general, you find that it works fantastic as a melee fighter at earlier levels, and it's pretty much encouraged to become a traditional spellcaster at higher levels. This is due to a shift in power in your own spells, along with increased risk to actually being in melee and monsters more or less stop caring about AC. Think of it this way, even if you had a lvl 20 wizard with an extra two levels in paladin (an impossible lvl 22 lol), your actions and spell slots are better spent on casting spells than attacking.
So, there's a sweet spot to enjoying melee. Any time you multiclass bladesinger, that sweet spot is smaller to hit.
I don't think it's worth the growing pains of multiclassing for something you'll enjoy for a very short time.
Well, i suppose depends how you see the thing, assuming Pal/Sor is one of the most common multiclass in 5e, i can argue that he is a sorcadin with more slots and so more smites, more and better spells, better AC, a sorcadin that have access to simulacrum and so he is in practice 2 sorcadin lol (even one ranged and one melee), a sorcadin that get access to Tenser's transformation, Magic Jar and so on till Wish, however except on Con, he probably have lower saves (if the sorcadin go till lv 6 of paladin). What i mean is: i see reasons for go with the palasinger (or wizardin) more than sorcadin. Probably if you ask me "is a wizard stronger than this character?" i can easily answer "yes" becouse i don't think there is any class or multiclass stronger than a wizard in terms of pure power (after lv 13 for sure, but also from lv 9 they get a huge boost to everything), but we also have to consider that he is much more comparable to a sorcadin (regardless build the sorcadin with 2 or 6 lv of paladin) than to a wizard, also for playstyle and mechanics that would be kinda similar (even with 6th lv spells he can still go in melee and don't regret it, he can cast any concentration spell and active Bladesong in the first turn, than go melee, or even use a second turn for synaptic static and than go malee, but he still have 3 melee turns in the fight and we are talking about a fight where he is spending many rousources as he gonna use no less than 2 hight lv spells slots and a Bladesong, and that's not possible in every fight, than once he get Simulacrum he simply have slots x2 and he can even use almost all the main character's slots just for smites lol) , while a wizard play in a totally different way, getting probably more goodies than a sorcadin becouse of the extra attack without delay spells and slots. He would avoid single target damage spells and cantrips and yea, he gonna risk much more to lose concentration compared to a wizard as he'll be in melee, he is limitated to Proficincy Bonus uses of Bladesong, but he can also boost consistently the party damage this way, while keeping almost all the goodies of a full caster and so gaining some versatility.
On paper, the wizardin works. But in practice, you find that it's mainly a bladesinger that can smite.
So, when you look at the bladesinger in general, you find that it works fantastic as a melee fighter at earlier levels, and it's pretty much encouraged to become a traditional spellcaster at higher levels. This is due to a shift in power in your own spells, along with increased risk to actually being in melee and monsters more or less stop caring about AC. Think of it this way, even if you had a lvl 20 wizard with an extra two levels in paladin (an impossible lvl 22 lol), your actions and spell slots are better spent on casting spells than attacking.
So, there's a sweet spot to enjoying melee. Any time you multiclass bladesinger, that sweet spot is smaller to hit.
I don't think it's worth the growing pains of multiclassing for something you'll enjoy for a very short time.
Well, i suppose depends how you see the thing, assuming Pal/Sor is one of the most common multiclass in 5e, i can argue that he is a sorcadin with more slots and so more smites, more and better spells, better AC, a sorcadin that have access to simulacrum and so he is in practice 2 sorcadin lol (even one ranged and one melee), a sorcadin that get access to Tenser's transformation, Magic Jar and so on till Wish, however except on Con, he probably have lower saves (if the sorcadin go till lv 6 of paladin). What i mean is: i see reasons for go with the palasinger (or wizardin) more than sorcadin. Probably if you ask me "is a wizard stronger than this character?" i can easily answer "yes" becouse i don't think there is any class or multiclass stronger than a wizard in terms of pure power (after lv 13 for sure, but also from lv 9 they get a huge boost to everything), but we also have to consider that he is much more comparable to a sorcadin (regardless build the sorcadin with 2 or 6 lv of paladin) than to a wizard, also for playstyle and mechanics that would be kinda similar (even with 6th lv spells he can still go in melee and don't regret it, he can cast any concentration spell and active Bladesong in the first turn, than go melee, or even use a second turn for synaptic static and than go malee, but he still have 3 melee turns in the fight and we are talking about a fight where he is spending many rousources as he gonna use no less than 2 hight lv spells slots and a Bladesong, and that's not possible in every fight, than once he get Simulacrum he simply have slots x2 and he can even use almost all the main character's slots just for smites lol) , while a wizard play in a totally different way, getting probably more goodies than a sorcadin becouse of the extra attack without delay spells and slots. He would avoid single target damage spells and cantrips and yea, he gonna risk much more to lose concentration compared to a wizard as he'll be in melee, he is limitated to Proficincy Bonus uses of Bladesong, but he can also boost consistently the party damage this way, while keeping almost all the goodies of a full caster and so gaining some versatility.
I think you are overestmating the advantages. Most Sorcadins are going to be in plate, meaning they either have a better AC than a bladesinger (if using a shield) or they do more damage (if using a heavy weapon).
Also, while you have more spell slots it is not a lot more because you are using 1 or more every day for mage armor, and then you are generally going to be burning 2nd level slots for shield spell.
For example - Sorcerer6/Paladin 6 has 14 spell slots, a Wizard 10/Paladin 2 has 16 spell slots, but at least one of those is going to be used on mage armor, giving him 15 available for smites compared to the Sorcadins 14. Additionally the Sorcadin has Sorcery points, giving him a bunch of flexibility/
The Wizard does get a spell slot one level higher, but that is not that much: If the point is melee, that higher level casing equates to about 13 points of damage in an entire day and if the point is not melee then the ability to smite you get with the multiclass is not real valuable.
Finally a 6th level Paladin is going to get a subclass which is generally going to bring quite a bit of martial combat power to the table.
On paper, the wizardin works. But in practice, you find that it's mainly a bladesinger that can smite.
So, when you look at the bladesinger in general, you find that it works fantastic as a melee fighter at earlier levels, and it's pretty much encouraged to become a traditional spellcaster at higher levels. This is due to a shift in power in your own spells, along with increased risk to actually being in melee and monsters more or less stop caring about AC. Think of it this way, even if you had a lvl 20 wizard with an extra two levels in paladin (an impossible lvl 22 lol), your actions and spell slots are better spent on casting spells than attacking.
So, there's a sweet spot to enjoying melee. Any time you multiclass bladesinger, that sweet spot is smaller to hit.
I don't think it's worth the growing pains of multiclassing for something you'll enjoy for a very short time.
Well, i suppose depends how you see the thing, assuming Pal/Sor is one of the most common multiclass in 5e, i can argue that he is a sorcadin with more slots and so more smites, more and better spells, better AC, a sorcadin that have access to simulacrum and so he is in practice 2 sorcadin lol (even one ranged and one melee), a sorcadin that get access to Tenser's transformation, Magic Jar and so on till Wish, however except on Con, he probably have lower saves (if the sorcadin go till lv 6 of paladin). What i mean is: i see reasons for go with the palasinger (or wizardin) more than sorcadin. Probably if you ask me "is a wizard stronger than this character?" i can easily answer "yes" becouse i don't think there is any class or multiclass stronger than a wizard in terms of pure power (after lv 13 for sure, but also from lv 9 they get a huge boost to everything), but we also have to consider that he is much more comparable to a sorcadin (regardless build the sorcadin with 2 or 6 lv of paladin) than to a wizard, also for playstyle and mechanics that would be kinda similar (even with 6th lv spells he can still go in melee and don't regret it, he can cast any concentration spell and active Bladesong in the first turn, than go melee, or even use a second turn for synaptic static and than go malee, but he still have 3 melee turns in the fight and we are talking about a fight where he is spending many rousources as he gonna use no less than 2 hight lv spells slots and a Bladesong, and that's not possible in every fight, than once he get Simulacrum he simply have slots x2 and he can even use almost all the main character's slots just for smites lol) , while a wizard play in a totally different way, getting probably more goodies than a sorcadin becouse of the extra attack without delay spells and slots. He would avoid single target damage spells and cantrips and yea, he gonna risk much more to lose concentration compared to a wizard as he'll be in melee, he is limitated to Proficincy Bonus uses of Bladesong, but he can also boost consistently the party damage this way, while keeping almost all the goodies of a full caster and so gaining some versatility.
I think you are overestmating the advantages. Most Sorcadins are going to be in plate, meaning they either have a better AC than a bladesinger (if using a shield) or they do more damage (if using a heavy weapon).
Also, while you have more spell slots it is not a lot more because you are using 1 or more every day for mage armor, and then you are generally going to be burning 2nd level slots for shield spell.
For example - Sorcerer6/Paladin 6 has 14 spell slots, a Wizard 10/Paladin 2 has 16 spell slots, but at least one of those is going to be used on mage armor, giving him 15 available for smites compared to the Sorcadins 14. Additionally the Sorcadin has Sorcery points, giving him a bunch of flexibility/
The Wizard does get a spell slot one level higher, but that is not that much: If the point is melee, that higher level casing equates to about 13 points of damage in an entire day and if the point is not melee then the ability to smite you get with the multiclass is not real valuable.
Finally a 6th level Paladin is going to get a subclass which is generally going to bring quite a bit of martial combat power to the table.
I can see your point here, im just not agree about the higher AC of sorcadin that in plate and shield has 20 + 5 the shield spell (+ eventually 1 for defence Fighting Style), while a Bladesinger has, at lv 12 as it was your exemple, the same AC while in Bladesong, and he can bladesong 4 times a day, so almost all fights (assuming at least 1 fight have a small gap between the next one). The difference is kinda few and i didn't use Mage Armor, just +5 Int or Dex, +3 Int or Dex (assuming already 2 ability score improvement for lv 12 and assuming the stats i posted in the beginning) and a mundane +2 light armor (+ eventually 1 from Defence fighting style), however, before lv's, he is still missing an asi and having less use of Bladesong he have some less AC (but he will probably end the campaingn with highter AC than a sorcadin if we go on taking lv's and ability score improvements in Int and Dex). So also about the spells he would not need to use mage armor and he just need to think to maximize Int and Dex. The real problem he have seem to be earlier lv's when without Bladesong active he can't go in melee (with or without mage armor), maybe warcaster or even mobile can help to mitigate this, so going Vhuman or custom lineage for a starting feat can be an idea. At lv character 13 he get 5 use of Bladesong that mean kinda all day and at lv 14 an asi that make his AC higher than a sorcadin (+1), at lv 15 he get Simulacrum and just Double Up his slots, here there is no sorcerer that can be compared anymore in my opionion, he can use one source of slots for spells being at distance and other one for smites in melee, from here on (but even before with Wall of Force, Magic Jar, soul cage and contigency that are all spells from lv's that can't be used for smites, or well, you can smite with them but you not gonna get anyway more than 5d8 radiant damage as for a 4th lv slot) things like forcecage, clone , Maze, True Polimorph, wish etc etc are invaluable compared to what the sorcerer gets, and notice that you can use any of those spells still being totally effective in malee, becouse you already have 2 fonts of slots and spells, and many of them can be casted even outside of combat. For being shorter, i think till lv 8 the sorcadin has something more in terms of being able to be hitted some less and having a better and more balanced martial powers, from lv 9th with 4th use of Bladesong this gap is already kinda covered, i would argue they are fair for the few more damage from the BS (well, having higher concentration spells known and from a better list, i would use the higher lv slots for cast spells instead than smite, especially what i can cast before combat, saving the same smites a sorcadin have, so im not sure we are talking only about few more damage) and few more AC (or well, the same AC, but the AC for the Sorcadin last all day, while the BS's AC probably 5 fights) + Subclass from the sorcadin. From lv's 13 i think the wizardin start to overcome the sorcadin in every aspect and from lv 15 i suppose we don't need to compare anymore as it have in practice slots x2 and sort of a second character.
Other idea i had was to dip just 1 lv in monk, so to use a quarterstaff with Dex, getting the PAM, Crusher and Warcaster feats, i would probably go with Vhuman or Costum Lineage for a starting feat (Crusher for 18 Dex), than grt +2 Int at 5, PAM at 9 and warcaster at 13 (Dex/Int are already 18), +2 Int (or Telekinetic) at 17 and get mostly concentration area spells like web, sleet storm, fire wall, storm sphere, later on whirlwind, so tu push enemies with my attacks in dangerous places (and not in melee range with my character) with at least speed reduction (hopefully 2 times in a turn with my reaction that sometimes will be anyway busy with shield), being still able to do 2 attacks per round and one with Booming Blade + 1 attack with a bonus action (hoping at least 1 hit for push the enemie in the spell area), and one possible reaction attack (that as it would happen in other turn would trigger Crusher again) and keeping all the Bladesinger spells.
PS would be nice to add also Telekinetic as feat, but seem we don't have enough space till the really end (and at the cost to don't maximize Int), as warcaster can be great for other Booming Blade reaction attack + push 5 feat.
I can see your point here, im just not agree about the higher AC of sorcadin that in plate and shield has 20 + 5 the shield spell (+ eventually 1 for defence Fighting Style), while a Bladesinger has, at lv 12 as it was your exemple, the same AC while in Bladesong, and he can bladesong 4 times a day, so almost all fights (assuming at least 1 fight have a small gap between the next one).
The difference is kinda few and i didn't use Mage Armor, just +5 Int or Dex, +3 Int or Dex (assuming already 2 ability score improvement for lv 12 and assuming the stats i posted in the beginning) and a mundane +2 light armor (+ eventually 1 from Defence fighting style), however, before lv's, he is still missing an asi and having less use of Bladesong he have some less AC (but he will probably end the campaingn with highter AC than a sorcadin if we go on taking lv's and ability score improvements in Int and Dex). So also about the spells he would not need to use mage armor and he just need to think to maximize Int and Dex.
She can bladesong 4 times a day for a minute each and that is to get the SAME AC. Her AC is worse before her first turn, any time she gets incapacitated, after bladesong runs out or after she runs out of uses. So it will be the same most of the time and worse the rest of the time. Also keep in mind you only have 2 ASIs so to get 20 intelligence this means you did not take warcaster and can't dual wield and use the shield spell.
Compared to a 6/6 Sorcadin with defense and warcaster - you have the SAME AC when you are not TWF, AND you have bladesong up AND you cast mage armor within the last 8 hours. When any of these things are untrue her AC is WORSE.
If you assume +2 armor the Bladesinger is way behind:
Studded+2 -->12 +2magic armor, +3dex, +5 intelligence, +5 shield spell=27 in bladesong, 22 not in bladesong
for the sorcadin plate+2 and shield +2 --> 20 +2 magic armor, +2 shield, +1 defense, +5 shield spell = 30 all the time
The real problem he have seem to be earlier lv's when without Bladesong active he can't go in melee (with or without mage armor), maybe warcaster or even mobile can help to mitigate this, so going Vhuman or custom lineage for a starting feat can be an idea.
You are right abotu that. Warcaster helps but I would not get mobile. If you are not going to be staying in melee there is no reason to play a Bladesinger. Instead of mobile get a ranged cantrip for when you are nto in bladesong ... or get a whip.
At lv character 13 he get 5 use of Bladesong that mean kinda all day
Every fight and all day is not the same thing. You will be in bladesong a lot, but not all the time. Anything that causes incapacitated turns Bladesong off, even if it is just for a turn. Then it stays off until you use a bonus action to activate it again. As noted earlier you very rarely start a fight in bladesong, so any time before your initiative you are not in bladesong. If you are looking at AC, the Sorcadin is going to still be wearing his armor all of those times.
I can see your point here, im just not agree about the higher AC of sorcadin that in plate and shield has 20 + 5 the shield spell (+ eventually 1 for defence Fighting Style), while a Bladesinger has, at lv 12 as it was your exemple, the same AC while in Bladesong, and he can bladesong 4 times a day, so almost all fights (assuming at least 1 fight have a small gap between the next one).
The difference is kinda few and i didn't use Mage Armor, just +5 Int or Dex, +3 Int or Dex (assuming already 2 ability score improvement for lv 12 and assuming the stats i posted in the beginning) and a mundane +2 light armor (+ eventually 1 from Defence fighting style), however, before lv's, he is still missing an asi and having less use of Bladesong he have some less AC (but he will probably end the campaingn with highter AC than a sorcadin if we go on taking lv's and ability score improvements in Int and Dex). So also about the spells he would not need to use mage armor and he just need to think to maximize Int and Dex.
She can bladesong 4 times a day for a minute each and that is to get the SAME AC. Her AC is worse before her first turn, any time she gets incapacitated, after bladesong runs out or after she runs out of uses. So it will be the same most of the time and worse the rest of the time. Also keep in mind you only have 2 ASIs so to get 20 intelligence this means you did not take warcaster and can't dual wield and use the shield spell.
Compared to a 6/6 Sorcadin with defense and warcaster - you have the SAME AC when you are not TWF, AND you have bladesong up AND you cast mage armor within the last 8 hours. When any of these things are untrue her AC is WORSE.
If you assume +2 armor the Bladesinger is way behind:
Studded+2 -->12 +2magic armor, +3dex, +5 intelligence, +5 shield spell=27 in bladesong, 22 not in bladesong
for the sorcadin plate+2 and shield +2 --> 20 +2 magic armor, +2 shield, +1 defense, +5 shield spell = 30 all the time
The real problem he have seem to be earlier lv's when without Bladesong active he can't go in melee (with or without mage armor), maybe warcaster or even mobile can help to mitigate this, so going Vhuman or custom lineage for a starting feat can be an idea.
You are right abotu that. Warcaster helps but I would not get mobile. If you are not going to be staying in melee there is no reason to play a Bladesinger. Instead of mobile get a ranged cantrip for when you are nto in bladesong ... or get a whip.
At lv character 13 he get 5 use of Bladesong that mean kinda all day
Every fight and all day is not the same thing. You will be in bladesong a lot, but not all the time. Anything that causes incapacitated turns Bladesong off, even if it is just for a turn. Then it stays off until you use a bonus action to activate it again. As noted earlier you very rarely start a fight in bladesong, so any time before your initiative you are not in bladesong. If you are looking at AC, the Sorcadin is going to still be wearing his armor all of those times.
Yea i agree with you about the AC, im just arguing that at higher lv's you don't have this problem anymore and the spells he gonna get are just a huge boost for whatever, melee or ranged character. But yep, probably it's not that worth as it gonna come at very hight lv's.
What do you think about the monk dip for use PAM, Warcaster and Crusher? I don't know, i always felt the bladesinger very powerful, but i have the sensation that he lack some better reason for be in melee (he can't get PAM or GWM. Except without use Bladesong and so getting one of that feats, or using a Shadow Blade, that it's a good spell, but he can probably concentrate on something better, his support in melee will be anyway kinda few) than just extra attack (however the best extra attack in the game probably), pushing his enemy in his own hazardus spells and get other easy possible attack with Booming Blade as a reaction seem to me a good way to make a good reason (and if, as i do, you have a cleric in your party with spirit guardians that halve the speed of enemies is a still more good reason), also becouse he save all the good of a Bladesinger, however, needing more feats, he won't maximize Dex.
What do you think about the monk dip for use PAM, Warcaster and Crusher? I don't know, i always felt the bladesinger very powerful, but i have the sensation that he lack some better reason for be in melee (he can't get PAM or GWM. Except without use Bladesong and so getting one of that feats, or using a Shadow Blade, that it's a good spell, but he can probably concentrate on something better, his support in melee will be anyway kinda few) than just extra attack (however the best extra attack in the game probably), pushing his enemy in his own hazardus spells and get other easy possible attack with Booming Blade as a reaction seem to me a good way to make a good reason (and if, as i do, you have a cleric in your party with spirit guardians that halve the speed of enemies is a still more good reason), also becouse he save all the good of a Bladesinger, however, needing more feats, he won't maximize Dex.
I have only played a Monk-Bladesinger once and I was killed at level 3 (1 Monk/2 Wizard). So my experience was not great.
That said I like it on paper as a half elf. Here is what I planned:
Start as Monk with 16Dex, 15 inteligence, 16 Wisdom. Take the Elf Weapon training and get hand crossbow instead of Longbow and warhammer instead of Shortsword. Pick up whip at wizard level 2. Then go to Monk level 6, then probably wizard after that.. I was thinking of Kensei for this build. I was thinking of Fey Touched feat at 6th level (4 Monk, 2 Wizard) and was not really thinking beyond that.
PAM would work well with a staff, with the added benefit that it could double as a spell focus (and eliminate the need for warcaster). Although I think you need to plan for a half feat at level 4 to boost your three main stats (S/D/W) to 16. If you are not going to get stunning strike I guess you could go Wisdom 14 and use Mage Armor.
What do you think about the monk dip for use PAM, Warcaster and Crusher? I don't know, i always felt the bladesinger very powerful, but i have the sensation that he lack some better reason for be in melee (he can't get PAM or GWM. Except without use Bladesong and so getting one of that feats, or using a Shadow Blade, that it's a good spell, but he can probably concentrate on something better, his support in melee will be anyway kinda few) than just extra attack (however the best extra attack in the game probably), pushing his enemy in his own hazardus spells and get other easy possible attack with Booming Blade as a reaction seem to me a good way to make a good reason (and if, as i do, you have a cleric in your party with spirit guardians that halve the speed of enemies is a still more good reason), also becouse he save all the good of a Bladesinger, however, needing more feats, he won't maximize Dex.
I have only played a Monk-Bladesinger once and I was killed at level 3 (1 Monk/2 Wizard). So my experience was not great.
That said I like it on paper as a half elf. Here is what I planned:
Start as Monk with 16Dex, 15 inteligence, 16 Wisdom. Take the Elf Weapon training and get hand crossbow instead of Longbow and warhammer instead of Shortsword. Pick up whip at wizard level 2. Then go to Monk level 6, then probably wizard after that.. I was thinking of Kensei for this build. I was thinking of Fey Touched feat at 6th level (4 Monk, 2 Wizard) and was not really thinking beyond that.
PAM would work well with a staff, with the added benefit that it could double as a spell focus (and eliminate the need for warcaster). Although I think you need to plan for a half feat at level 4 to boost your three main stats (S/D/W) to 16. If you are not going to get stunning strike I guess you could go Wisdom 14 and use Mage Armor.
For me is a bit too much maybe, i would like to save all the spells of a pure wizard, but im agree with you that 18 stunning strike a day (around 3 for fight) is a huge boost to your debuffing power and if you get to 16 wis you'll not need mage armor at all, however the spells you delay is very hurting becouse we are talking about several lv's (probably you'll cast spells of 2 or 3 lv's lower than the previus character at the same point of the campaign), plus doubling extra attack is normally never a so good idea and so im not sure it's really worth it, maybe would be better get no more than 5 lv in Bladesinger and the others in Monk, even just 2 lv in Bladesinger gives you enough in my opinion, but if you want some spells where to push your enemies probably Bladesinger 3-5 is anyway ok. I think for some lore or some particular concept your character it's still viable and probably fun to play, but in a general viewing i would avoid that extra attack 2 times becouse it's like to lose a feature, as they won't stack, however the Bladesinger Extra Attack at least let you use a cantrip (Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade) in place of one attack, but still seem few to me for be really worth.
Other idea i had for a similar character (i mean some almost full caster with crusher, warcaster and PAM) is Fighter 1/War Magic Wizard 13/Fighter 1/War Magic Wizard x. He lose extra attack, but he has hight AC all day regardless Bladesong, better saves thanks to Arcane Deflection, and anyway Crusher, Pam and double Booming Blade with reaction attack via Warcaster, being still better in Con saves (starting Fighter gives proficency), getting action surge and wearing Plate Armors, a shield and a querterstaff (so he can use it as focus).
Also Battlesmith 4/War Magic Wizard x could work, if i get a small race (lets say Goblin for the disengage or Gnome for even better saves) i can even mount my "robot" for become sort of mini Mazinga lol (well, he can't fly without cast the appropriate spell, but he have anyway a big boost to speed and he is anyway a goblin/gnome wizard inside a robot build by magic, it's already enough for a very funny lore lol), and my AC and saves would be still higher, but i gonna delay spells some lv more and needing a small race it reduce the space for feats (here probably can have a sense to switch +2 Int and PAM, getting first the feat).
In both this last build seem better focus on Int (that anyway can't be more than 18 as it become 20 only at lv 17-18 and only using VHuman, becouse getting custom lineage it won't work for Int, as Crusher can't add Int, while with VHuman i can start 16 Str and Int, use Crusher for Bump Con, that gets to 14 at 1st lv as Crusher is the extra feat and so keeping 14 wis also, and than next asi get +2 Int for bump it to 18 by lv 5) more than Str, becouse there are magic objects normally kinda easy to find that can bring my Str to 19, and also becouse after lv 12, when he get Magic Jar, he can bump his Str by using other body. What i still can't decide is which of those builds works better for those kind of mechanics with those stats, becouse also as lore they are all fantastic concept (the Fighter/War Magic Wizard is probably some more generic kind, but you can build on it any kind of lore).
Despite to be really MAD and assuming i have the stat (rolled) for make it playable (15,15,14,13,12,11, if i go half elf i can get 13 str, 16 dex, 14 con, 17 int, 11 wis, 13 cha, getting elven accuracy and +1 int at lv 4), is it a worth dip? Adding smites, defence or dueling fighting style and some heal to anything with extra attack and full slot's progression seem already unique, plus this spells are from the wizard spell list and he is still capable to get 9th lv spells (i can't imagine everything he can do from lv 15 with simulacrum and contingency for exemple). Compared with the sorcadin with extra attack it have more slots, higher lv spells, earlier spells and better spell's selection, plus he add also Booming Blade to one attack, however it have probably lower saves and he is more proficiency bonus dependent as Bladesong won't work all day till hight lv's, but defence fighting style and the shield + Shield probably make he decent in melee in minor fights, however the lack of con saves hurt really too much (warcaster at lv 10? Than i was thinking maybe +2 INT at lv 14, so the progression would be something like BS 6/Paladin 2/BS x).
On paper, the wizardin works. But in practice, you find that it's mainly a bladesinger that can smite.
So, when you look at the bladesinger in general, you find that it works fantastic as a melee fighter at earlier levels, and it's pretty much encouraged to become a traditional spellcaster at higher levels. This is due to a shift in power in your own spells, along with increased risk to actually being in melee and monsters more or less stop caring about AC. Think of it this way, even if you had a lvl 20 wizard with an extra two levels in paladin (an impossible lvl 22 lol), your actions and spell slots are better spent on casting spells than attacking.
So, there's a sweet spot to enjoying melee. Any time you multiclass bladesinger, that sweet spot is smaller to hit.
I don't think it's worth the growing pains of multiclassing for something you'll enjoy for a very short time.
Well, i suppose depends how you see the thing, assuming Pal/Sor is one of the most common multiclass in 5e, i can argue that he is a sorcadin with more slots and so more smites, more and better spells, better AC, a sorcadin that have access to simulacrum and so he is in practice 2 sorcadin lol (even one ranged and one melee), a sorcadin that get access to Tenser's transformation, Magic Jar and so on till Wish, however except on Con, he probably have lower saves (if the sorcadin go till lv 6 of paladin). What i mean is: i see reasons for go with the palasinger (or wizardin) more than sorcadin. Probably if you ask me "is a wizard stronger than this character?" i can easily answer "yes" becouse i don't think there is any class or multiclass stronger than a wizard in terms of pure power (after lv 13 for sure, but also from lv 9 they get a huge boost to everything), but we also have to consider that he is much more comparable to a sorcadin (regardless build the sorcadin with 2 or 6 lv of paladin) than to a wizard, also for playstyle and mechanics that would be kinda similar (even with 6th lv spells he can still go in melee and don't regret it, he can cast any concentration spell and active Bladesong in the first turn, than go melee, or even use a second turn for synaptic static and than go malee, but he still have 3 melee turns in the fight and we are talking about a fight where he is spending many rousources as he gonna use no less than 2 hight lv spells slots and a Bladesong, and that's not possible in every fight, than once he get Simulacrum he simply have slots x2 and he can even use almost all the main character's slots just for smites lol) , while a wizard play in a totally different way, getting probably more goodies than a sorcadin becouse of the extra attack without delay spells and slots. He would avoid single target damage spells and cantrips and yea, he gonna risk much more to lose concentration compared to a wizard as he'll be in melee, he is limitated to Proficincy Bonus uses of Bladesong, but he can also boost consistently the party damage this way, while keeping almost all the goodies of a full caster and so gaining some versatility.
I think you are overestmating the advantages. Most Sorcadins are going to be in plate, meaning they either have a better AC than a bladesinger (if using a shield) or they do more damage (if using a heavy weapon).
Also, while you have more spell slots it is not a lot more because you are using 1 or more every day for mage armor, and then you are generally going to be burning 2nd level slots for shield spell.
For example - Sorcerer6/Paladin 6 has 14 spell slots, a Wizard 10/Paladin 2 has 16 spell slots, but at least one of those is going to be used on mage armor, giving him 15 available for smites compared to the Sorcadins 14. Additionally the Sorcadin has Sorcery points, giving him a bunch of flexibility/
The Wizard does get a spell slot one level higher, but that is not that much: If the point is melee, that higher level casing equates to about 13 points of damage in an entire day and if the point is not melee then the ability to smite you get with the multiclass is not real valuable.
Finally a 6th level Paladin is going to get a subclass which is generally going to bring quite a bit of martial combat power to the table.
I can see your point here, im just not agree about the higher AC of sorcadin that in plate and shield has 20 + 5 the shield spell (+ eventually 1 for defence Fighting Style), while a Bladesinger has, at lv 12 as it was your exemple, the same AC while in Bladesong, and he can bladesong 4 times a day, so almost all fights (assuming at least 1 fight have a small gap between the next one). The difference is kinda few and i didn't use Mage Armor, just +5 Int or Dex, +3 Int or Dex (assuming already 2 ability score improvement for lv 12 and assuming the stats i posted in the beginning) and a mundane +2 light armor (+ eventually 1 from Defence fighting style), however, before lv's, he is still missing an asi and having less use of Bladesong he have some less AC (but he will probably end the campaingn with highter AC than a sorcadin if we go on taking lv's and ability score improvements in Int and Dex). So also about the spells he would not need to use mage armor and he just need to think to maximize Int and Dex. The real problem he have seem to be earlier lv's when without Bladesong active he can't go in melee (with or without mage armor), maybe warcaster or even mobile can help to mitigate this, so going Vhuman or custom lineage for a starting feat can be an idea. At lv character 13 he get 5 use of Bladesong that mean kinda all day and at lv 14 an asi that make his AC higher than a sorcadin (+1), at lv 15 he get Simulacrum and just Double Up his slots, here there is no sorcerer that can be compared anymore in my opionion, he can use one source of slots for spells being at distance and other one for smites in melee, from here on (but even before with Wall of Force, Magic Jar, soul cage and contigency that are all spells from lv's that can't be used for smites, or well, you can smite with them but you not gonna get anyway more than 5d8 radiant damage as for a 4th lv slot) things like forcecage, clone , Maze, True Polimorph, wish etc etc are invaluable compared to what the sorcerer gets, and notice that you can use any of those spells still being totally effective in malee, becouse you already have 2 fonts of slots and spells, and many of them can be casted even outside of combat. For being shorter, i think till lv 8 the sorcadin has something more in terms of being able to be hitted some less and having a better and more balanced martial powers, from lv 9th with 4th use of Bladesong this gap is already kinda covered, i would argue they are fair for the few more damage from the BS (well, having higher concentration spells known and from a better list, i would use the higher lv slots for cast spells instead than smite, especially what i can cast before combat, saving the same smites a sorcadin have, so im not sure we are talking only about few more damage) and few more AC (or well, the same AC, but the AC for the Sorcadin last all day, while the BS's AC probably 5 fights) + Subclass from the sorcadin. From lv's 13 i think the wizardin start to overcome the sorcadin in every aspect and from lv 15 i suppose we don't need to compare anymore as it have in practice slots x2 and sort of a second character.
Other idea i had was to dip just 1 lv in monk, so to use a quarterstaff with Dex, getting the PAM, Crusher and Warcaster feats, i would probably go with Vhuman or Costum Lineage for a starting feat (Crusher for 18 Dex), than grt +2 Int at 5, PAM at 9 and warcaster at 13 (Dex/Int are already 18), +2 Int (or Telekinetic) at 17 and get mostly concentration area spells like web, sleet storm, fire wall, storm sphere, later on whirlwind, so tu push enemies with my attacks in dangerous places (and not in melee range with my character) with at least speed reduction (hopefully 2 times in a turn with my reaction that sometimes will be anyway busy with shield), being still able to do 2 attacks per round and one with Booming Blade + 1 attack with a bonus action (hoping at least 1 hit for push the enemie in the spell area), and one possible reaction attack (that as it would happen in other turn would trigger Crusher again) and keeping all the Bladesinger spells.
PS would be nice to add also Telekinetic as feat, but seem we don't have enough space till the really end (and at the cost to don't maximize Int), as warcaster can be great for other Booming Blade reaction attack + push 5 feat.
She can bladesong 4 times a day for a minute each and that is to get the SAME AC. Her AC is worse before her first turn, any time she gets incapacitated, after bladesong runs out or after she runs out of uses. So it will be the same most of the time and worse the rest of the time. Also keep in mind you only have 2 ASIs so to get 20 intelligence this means you did not take warcaster and can't dual wield and use the shield spell.
Compared to a 6/6 Sorcadin with defense and warcaster - you have the SAME AC when you are not TWF, AND you have bladesong up AND you cast mage armor within the last 8 hours. When any of these things are untrue her AC is WORSE.
If you assume +2 armor the Bladesinger is way behind:
Studded+2 -->12 +2magic armor, +3dex, +5 intelligence, +5 shield spell=27 in bladesong, 22 not in bladesong
for the sorcadin plate+2 and shield +2 --> 20 +2 magic armor, +2 shield, +1 defense, +5 shield spell = 30 all the time
You are right abotu that. Warcaster helps but I would not get mobile. If you are not going to be staying in melee there is no reason to play a Bladesinger. Instead of mobile get a ranged cantrip for when you are nto in bladesong ... or get a whip.
Every fight and all day is not the same thing. You will be in bladesong a lot, but not all the time. Anything that causes incapacitated turns Bladesong off, even if it is just for a turn. Then it stays off until you use a bonus action to activate it again. As noted earlier you very rarely start a fight in bladesong, so any time before your initiative you are not in bladesong. If you are looking at AC, the Sorcadin is going to still be wearing his armor all of those times.
Yea i agree with you about the AC, im just arguing that at higher lv's you don't have this problem anymore and the spells he gonna get are just a huge boost for whatever, melee or ranged character. But yep, probably it's not that worth as it gonna come at very hight lv's.
What do you think about the monk dip for use PAM, Warcaster and Crusher? I don't know, i always felt the bladesinger very powerful, but i have the sensation that he lack some better reason for be in melee (he can't get PAM or GWM. Except without use Bladesong and so getting one of that feats, or using a Shadow Blade, that it's a good spell, but he can probably concentrate on something better, his support in melee will be anyway kinda few) than just extra attack (however the best extra attack in the game probably), pushing his enemy in his own hazardus spells and get other easy possible attack with Booming Blade as a reaction seem to me a good way to make a good reason (and if, as i do, you have a cleric in your party with spirit guardians that halve the speed of enemies is a still more good reason), also becouse he save all the good of a Bladesinger, however, needing more feats, he won't maximize Dex.
I have only played a Monk-Bladesinger once and I was killed at level 3 (1 Monk/2 Wizard). So my experience was not great.
That said I like it on paper as a half elf. Here is what I planned:
Start as Monk with 16Dex, 15 inteligence, 16 Wisdom. Take the Elf Weapon training and get hand crossbow instead of Longbow and warhammer instead of Shortsword. Pick up whip at wizard level 2. Then go to Monk level 6, then probably wizard after that.. I was thinking of Kensei for this build. I was thinking of Fey Touched feat at 6th level (4 Monk, 2 Wizard) and was not really thinking beyond that.
PAM would work well with a staff, with the added benefit that it could double as a spell focus (and eliminate the need for warcaster). Although I think you need to plan for a half feat at level 4 to boost your three main stats (S/D/W) to 16. If you are not going to get stunning strike I guess you could go Wisdom 14 and use Mage Armor.
For me is a bit too much maybe, i would like to save all the spells of a pure wizard, but im agree with you that 18 stunning strike a day (around 3 for fight) is a huge boost to your debuffing power and if you get to 16 wis you'll not need mage armor at all, however the spells you delay is very hurting becouse we are talking about several lv's (probably you'll cast spells of 2 or 3 lv's lower than the previus character at the same point of the campaign), plus doubling extra attack is normally never a so good idea and so im not sure it's really worth it, maybe would be better get no more than 5 lv in Bladesinger and the others in Monk, even just 2 lv in Bladesinger gives you enough in my opinion, but if you want some spells where to push your enemies probably Bladesinger 3-5 is anyway ok. I think for some lore or some particular concept your character it's still viable and probably fun to play, but in a general viewing i would avoid that extra attack 2 times becouse it's like to lose a feature, as they won't stack, however the Bladesinger Extra Attack at least let you use a cantrip (Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade) in place of one attack, but still seem few to me for be really worth.
Other idea i had for a similar character (i mean some almost full caster with crusher, warcaster and PAM) is Fighter 1/War Magic Wizard 13/Fighter 1/War Magic Wizard x. He lose extra attack, but he has hight AC all day regardless Bladesong, better saves thanks to Arcane Deflection, and anyway Crusher, Pam and double Booming Blade with reaction attack via Warcaster, being still better in Con saves (starting Fighter gives proficency), getting action surge and wearing Plate Armors, a shield and a querterstaff (so he can use it as focus).
Also Battlesmith 4/War Magic Wizard x could work, if i get a small race (lets say Goblin for the disengage or Gnome for even better saves) i can even mount my "robot" for become sort of mini Mazinga lol (well, he can't fly without cast the appropriate spell, but he have anyway a big boost to speed and he is anyway a goblin/gnome wizard inside a robot build by magic, it's already enough for a very funny lore lol), and my AC and saves would be still higher, but i gonna delay spells some lv more and needing a small race it reduce the space for feats (here probably can have a sense to switch +2 Int and PAM, getting first the feat).
In both this last build seem better focus on Int (that anyway can't be more than 18 as it become 20 only at lv 17-18 and only using VHuman, becouse getting custom lineage it won't work for Int, as Crusher can't add Int, while with VHuman i can start 16 Str and Int, use Crusher for Bump Con, that gets to 14 at 1st lv as Crusher is the extra feat and so keeping 14 wis also, and than next asi get +2 Int for bump it to 18 by lv 5) more than Str, becouse there are magic objects normally kinda easy to find that can bring my Str to 19, and also becouse after lv 12, when he get Magic Jar, he can bump his Str by using other body. What i still can't decide is which of those builds works better for those kind of mechanics with those stats, becouse also as lore they are all fantastic concept (the Fighter/War Magic Wizard is probably some more generic kind, but you can build on it any kind of lore).