So the expert divination ability is trickle down spells, if you cast a 5th level spell you gain a 4th level spell slot and so on and so forth but if you cast a spell like Skywrite as a ritual then would you still gain the first level spell slot?
The ability only works when you cast a divination spell using a spell slot so sadly casting a spell as a ritual wouldn;t help.
The best Way I know of to cheese the ability in a combat setting is to alternate casting damaging spells with casting Mind Spike, so cast a spell at 4th level then cast Mind Spike at 5th level to get your 4th level slot backm rinse and repeat until you run out of slots.
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The ability only works when you cast a divination spell using a spell slot so sadly casting a spell as a ritual wouldn;t help.
The best Way I know of to cheese the ability in a combat setting is to alternate casting damaging spells with casting Mind Spike, so cast a spell at 4th level then cast Mind Spike at 5th level to get your 4th level slot backm rinse and repeat until you run out of slots.
Is it really worth burning your 5th level slot on upcasting an already lackluster spell, though?
If you are playing heavily into being a master of the divination arts then its probably worth it even if you just using it to recoup those level 1 slots you burned to cast Absorb Elements or Shield. Upcasting Mind Spike could also keep youuseful whilst waiting to do some Counterspelling as you can use your action to cast Mind Spike and you still get to do a bit of damage each turn whilst renewing your slots to keep a counterspell available.
It also appears that Mind Spike is the only Divination spell that can be upcast for some additional benefit although I am not quite sure why it does a base of 3d8 psychic damage at level 2 +1d6 extra damage per level above that.
As with most things though it depends on your build, how you decide to roleplay it and how you chose to use your resources.
If you are playing heavily into being a master of the divination arts then its probably worth it even if you just using it to recoup those level 1 slots you burned to cast Absorb Elements or Shield. Upcasting Mind Spike could also keep youuseful whilst waiting to do some Counterspelling as you can use your action to cast Mind Spike and you still get to do a bit of damage each turn whilst renewing your slots to keep a counterspell available.
It also appears that Mind Spike is the only Divination spell that can be upcast for some additional benefit although I am not quite sure why it does a base of 3d8 psychic damage at level 2 +1d6 extra damage per level above that.
As with most things though it depends on your build, how you decide to roleplay it and how you chose to use your resources.
The thing is, though, you could impact the battle so much more by using that slot on a spell of that level instead of upcasting an already mediocre spell just to get back a lower level slot.
For instance, cone of cold deals 8d8 damage to every creature in a 60 ft. cone, whereas mind spike upcast to 5th level deals 6d8 to a single creature. Cone of cold doesn't require concentration and thus can be used alongside other concentration spells, whereas mind spike requires concentration and thus ends whatever other spell you might be concentrating on as soon as you cast it, whether you choose to keep the effect going or not. Not saying damage is the only thing that matters, but it's a good metric to use here since mind spike's rider is niche and really doesn't do much for you in combat.
Long story short, blowing your 5th level slot on mind spike just to get back a lower level slot is a waste of a 5th level slot.
From what I can tell, you guys are arguing separate points. Rob76 is talking about maximizing damage and spells cast using divination magic and this feature, while Temery2383 is talking about simply maximizing damage with a single level 5 spell.
However, to add to Rob's point, a 5th-level mind spike isn't just a 5th-level spell. It can trickle down all the way to a 1st level spell slot. This means that your single 5th-level spell slot will do 18d8 damage and then give you a 1st-level spell slot. Yes, it'll take several rounds, but sometimes you need to save resources more than you need instant raw damage. Also, keep in mind that this is a divination wizard feature, not an evocation wizard feature. While it can be used to maximize damage from a single spell slot, it's not necessarily supposed to.
My point was that trading a high level slot for a low level slot generally isn't worth it unless you're still getting decent value for that high level slot, and in the case of mind spike you really aren't most of the time.
Let's say you're out of 3rd level slots and want to still be able to cast counterspell, or any other 3rd level spell really. Would it be better to A) cast mind spike at 4th level, lose concentration on your current concentration spell, and regain a 3rd level slot, or B) just cast counterspell with a 4th level slot and keep your concentration?
Expert divination is a nice feature to have for gathering information outside of combat, but in combat you're usually better off with any number of other spells and just conserving resources the same way you normally would.
In that specific situation, you'd still have to judge it based on what's happening. How important is that concentration spell? How important is it in this situation to get that extra spell slot back? Why does that 4th-level spell have to be mind spike? Quite frankly, you could cast divination as an action, keep your concentration, and still get that 3rd-level slot for counterspell. If you really want to use the feature, you can just upcast any of your other non-concentration divination spells, such as see invisibility or borrowed knowledge to proc the feature and get your 3rd-level slot. Keep in mind that the feature itself inherently adds value to upcasting spells. Even spells that don't get scaling from spell level will still have the added value of returning a spell slot.
Again, this is a divination feature, not an evocation feature. It canbe used in combat, and it canbe used for damage, but it's not specifically supposed to be used in combat. Not every tool in your toolbox has to, or even should, be optimized for combat.
I never said everything had to be combat focused, I was just talking about it in the context of combat because mind spike isn't likely to be cast outside of combat and that's the spell that was getting the most focus.
Unfortunately, the expert divination ability has poor synergy with divination spells
-Mind Spike sucks...if it was a better spell, sure...it would be a great candidate, but it sucks
-A lot of the better divination spells are rituals and thus don't trigger the extra spell slot
-The ones that aren't, are spells that you probably are casting early in the day. Arcane Eye will be cast pretty early...if you're lucky, the DM will have an encounter before you arrive to the dungeon. If so, you'll recap a spell slot. Foresight is done *very* early...assuming you get to level 17. The others, See Invisibility (redundant with The Third Eye), True Seeing, Tongues are too circumstantial imo. Borrowed Knowledge is a good candidate, in my campaign I would, except we have a Bard (jack of all trades) so it's not that helpful
Diviners work optimally under a very specific party strategy. You should always know what your next combat will be long before it starts. You do that with Arcane Eye or Scrying. Then, you organize.with your party. PCs sneak into place. Bards and Clerics cast their buffs. Wizards summon their minions. Then, initiative is rolled, but because the enemy hasn’t engaged with you, nothing happens. Your party members all hold their action. Next round, all your party members act simultaneously. If you’ve done this right, it should take a round or three for the enemy to get its stuff together.
If you have a Barbarian in your party who just wants to attack immediately, all the time, this won’t work. You should probably choose a different subclass.
Unfortunately, the expert divination ability has poor synergy with divination spells
-Mind Spike sucks...if it was a better spell, sure...it would be a great candidate, but it sucks
-A lot of the better divination spells are rituals and thus don't trigger the extra spell slot
-The ones that aren't, are spells that you probably are casting early in the day. Arcane Eye will be cast pretty early...if you're lucky, the DM will have an encounter before you arrive to the dungeon. If so, you'll recap a spell slot. Foresight is done *very* early...assuming you get to level 17. The others, See Invisibility (redundant with The Third Eye), True Seeing, Tongues are too circumstantial imo. Borrowed Knowledge is a good candidate, in my campaign I would, except we have a Bard (jack of all trades) so it's not that helpful
This, exactly. It's a nice feature to have when it comes up, but you can't rely on it coming up unless you contrive a plan to spend resources just so that you can recover them by spending more (and more valuable) resources. It's handy to occasionally get some slots back over the course of the day so you're not spending as many resources, but it's a waste to spend resources just to trigger the ability.
For this reason, lucky wouldn't be having an encounter before the dungeon just so you have expended slots to recover. Lucky would be not having that encounter in the first place, saving your resources for the dungeon, and having an opportunity to recover a few spell slots while you're in there.
My point was that trading a high level slot for a low level slot generally isn't worth it unless you're still getting decent value for that high level slot, and in the case of mind spike you really aren't most of the time.
I don't think you are following the tradeoff correctly here. You are not trading a 5th level slot for a 4th level slot. You are using a 5th level spell to upcast a spell and get 4 more spell slots totaling 8 levels (1 4th, 1 3rd, 1 2nd, 1 1st) which you use over 4 consecutive turns in that order.
You spend your 5th level slot the 1st turn and 4 turns later you have cast a 5th level spell, 4th level spell, 3rd level spell, 2nd level spell and 1st level spell and you have only used 1 5th level slot to do all this.
You are right one 5th level slot for one lower level slot is almost never worth it, but one 5th level slot for all those slots above is usually more than worth it even without considering the 5th-level casting.
This ability is a trap. It’s just plain bad and you’ll suffer trying to make it work. Just forget it, you already have Portent that is awesome and move ahead.
This ability is a trap. It’s just plain bad and you’ll suffer trying to make it work. Just forget it, you already have Portent that is awesome and move ahead.
Trying to max it out is a trap. Getting another slot back when you have good reason to use a locate or arcane eye or legend lore is amazing
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
This ability is a trap. It’s just plain bad and you’ll suffer trying to make it work. Just forget it, you already have Portent that is awesome and move ahead.
Trying to max it out is a trap. Getting another slot back when you have good reason to use a locate or arcane eye or legend lore is amazing
Exactly. It's wonderful to have when it happens to work out that way, and I would much rather have a weak or circumstantial ability than no ability at all, but there's zero reason to intentionally spend spell slots just to get lower ones back.
This ability is a trap. It’s just plain bad and you’ll suffer trying to make it work. Just forget it, you already have Portent that is awesome and move ahead.
Trying to max it out is a trap. Getting another slot back when you have good reason to use a locate or arcane eye or legend lore is amazing
Exactly. It's wonderful to have when it happens to work out that way, and I would much rather have a weak or circumstantial ability than no ability at all, but there's zero reason to intentionally spend spell slots just to get lower ones back.
but that is not really what you are doing.
You are spending a higher level slot to get a higher level effect and a lower level slot. You need to consider the slot you are getting along with the slot you are using.
For example, I can use my 3rd level slot for a magic missile that does 17.5. Or I can use my 3rd level slot for a mind spike that does 18 on a failed save or 9 on successful save and I have 1 more 2nd level slot when the turn ends compared to using magic missile.
At the end of the turn, doing 17.5 points of damage and having 1 less 2nd level slot is worse than doing 18 with 1 more slot. It is comparable to doing 9 and having 1 more lower level slot.
Certainly there are a lot of variables here, but the point is it is never just trading a higher level slot for alower level 1.
This ability is a trap. It’s just plain bad and you’ll suffer trying to make it work. Just forget it, you already have Portent that is awesome and move ahead.
Trying to max it out is a trap. Getting another slot back when you have good reason to use a locate or arcane eye or legend lore is amazing
Exactly. It's wonderful to have when it happens to work out that way, and I would much rather have a weak or circumstantial ability than no ability at all, but there's zero reason to intentionally spend spell slots just to get lower ones back.
but that is not really what you are doing.
You are spending a higher level slot to get a higher level effect and a lower level slot. You need to consider the slot you are getting along with the slot you are using.
For example, I can use my 3rd level slot for a magic missile that does 17.5. Or I can use my 3rd level slot for a mind spike that does 18 on a failed save or 9 on successful save and I have 1 more 2nd level slot when the turn ends compared to using magic missile.
At the end of the turn, doing 17.5 points of damage and having 1 less 2nd level slot is worse than doing 18 with 1 more slot. It is comparable to doing 9 and having 1 more lower level slot.
Certainly there are a lot of variables here, but the point is it is never just trading a higher level slot for alower level 1.
This ability is a trap. It’s just plain bad and you’ll suffer trying to make it work. Just forget it, you already have Portent that is awesome and move ahead.
Trying to max it out is a trap. Getting another slot back when you have good reason to use a locate or arcane eye or legend lore is amazing
Exactly. It's wonderful to have when it happens to work out that way, and I would much rather have a weak or circumstantial ability than no ability at all, but there's zero reason to intentionally spend spell slots just to get lower ones back.
but that is not really what you are doing.
You are spending a higher level slot to get a higher level effect and a lower level slot. You need to consider the slot you are getting along with the slot you are using.
For example, I can use my 3rd level slot for a magic missile that does 17.5. Or I can use my 3rd level slot for a mind spike that does 18 on a failed save or 9 on successful save and I have 1 more 2nd level slot when the turn ends compared to using magic missile.
At the end of the turn, doing 17.5 points of damage and having 1 less 2nd level slot is worse than doing 18 with 1 more slot. It is comparable to doing 9 and having 1 more lower level slot.
Certainly there are a lot of variables here, but the point is it is never just trading a higher level slot for alower level 1.
You're only getting it back if you've already spent a lower level slot. So what I meant (though in hindsight I admittedly said it wrong) is that spending a 4th level slot (and presumably a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level slot before it in that order, since we're talking about maximizing the ability) just so that you can get it back when you spend your higher level slot is dumb.
If you had a good reason to spend that 4th level slot, then getting it back later is great. But there's no reason to unnecessarily burn resources just so you can do that.
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So the expert divination ability is trickle down spells, if you cast a 5th level spell you gain a 4th level spell slot and so on and so forth but if you cast a spell like Skywrite as a ritual then would you still gain the first level spell slot?
The ability only works when you cast a divination spell using a spell slot so sadly casting a spell as a ritual wouldn;t help.
The best Way I know of to cheese the ability in a combat setting is to alternate casting damaging spells with casting Mind Spike, so cast a spell at 4th level then cast Mind Spike at 5th level to get your 4th level slot backm rinse and repeat until you run out of slots.
Is it really worth burning your 5th level slot on upcasting an already lackluster spell, though?
If you are playing heavily into being a master of the divination arts then its probably worth it even if you just using it to recoup those level 1 slots you burned to cast Absorb Elements or Shield. Upcasting Mind Spike could also keep youuseful whilst waiting to do some Counterspelling as you can use your action to cast Mind Spike and you still get to do a bit of damage each turn whilst renewing your slots to keep a counterspell available.
It also appears that Mind Spike is the only Divination spell that can be upcast for some additional benefit although I am not quite sure why it does a base of 3d8 psychic damage at level 2 +1d6 extra damage per level above that.
As with most things though it depends on your build, how you decide to roleplay it and how you chose to use your resources.
The thing is, though, you could impact the battle so much more by using that slot on a spell of that level instead of upcasting an already mediocre spell just to get back a lower level slot.
For instance, cone of cold deals 8d8 damage to every creature in a 60 ft. cone, whereas mind spike upcast to 5th level deals 6d8 to a single creature. Cone of cold doesn't require concentration and thus can be used alongside other concentration spells, whereas mind spike requires concentration and thus ends whatever other spell you might be concentrating on as soon as you cast it, whether you choose to keep the effect going or not. Not saying damage is the only thing that matters, but it's a good metric to use here since mind spike's rider is niche and really doesn't do much for you in combat.
Long story short, blowing your 5th level slot on mind spike just to get back a lower level slot is a waste of a 5th level slot.
From what I can tell, you guys are arguing separate points. Rob76 is talking about maximizing damage and spells cast using divination magic and this feature, while Temery2383 is talking about simply maximizing damage with a single level 5 spell.
However, to add to Rob's point, a 5th-level mind spike isn't just a 5th-level spell. It can trickle down all the way to a 1st level spell slot. This means that your single 5th-level spell slot will do 18d8 damage and then give you a 1st-level spell slot. Yes, it'll take several rounds, but sometimes you need to save resources more than you need instant raw damage. Also, keep in mind that this is a divination wizard feature, not an evocation wizard feature. While it can be used to maximize damage from a single spell slot, it's not necessarily supposed to.
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My point was that trading a high level slot for a low level slot generally isn't worth it unless you're still getting decent value for that high level slot, and in the case of mind spike you really aren't most of the time.
Let's say you're out of 3rd level slots and want to still be able to cast counterspell, or any other 3rd level spell really. Would it be better to A) cast mind spike at 4th level, lose concentration on your current concentration spell, and regain a 3rd level slot, or B) just cast counterspell with a 4th level slot and keep your concentration?
Expert divination is a nice feature to have for gathering information outside of combat, but in combat you're usually better off with any number of other spells and just conserving resources the same way you normally would.
In that specific situation, you'd still have to judge it based on what's happening. How important is that concentration spell? How important is it in this situation to get that extra spell slot back? Why does that 4th-level spell have to be mind spike?
Quite frankly, you could cast divination as an action, keep your concentration, and still get that 3rd-level slot for counterspell. If you really want to use the feature, you can just upcast any of your other non-concentration divination spells, such as see invisibility or borrowed knowledge to proc the feature and get your 3rd-level slot.
Keep in mind that the feature itself inherently adds value to upcasting spells. Even spells that don't get scaling from spell level will still have the added value of returning a spell slot.
Again, this is a divination feature, not an evocation feature. It can be used in combat, and it can be used for damage, but it's not specifically supposed to be used in combat. Not every tool in your toolbox has to, or even should, be optimized for combat.
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I never said everything had to be combat focused, I was just talking about it in the context of combat because mind spike isn't likely to be cast outside of combat and that's the spell that was getting the most focus.
Unfortunately, the expert divination ability has poor synergy with divination spells
-Mind Spike sucks...if it was a better spell, sure...it would be a great candidate, but it sucks
-A lot of the better divination spells are rituals and thus don't trigger the extra spell slot
-The ones that aren't, are spells that you probably are casting early in the day. Arcane Eye will be cast pretty early...if you're lucky, the DM will have an encounter before you arrive to the dungeon. If so, you'll recap a spell slot. Foresight is done *very* early...assuming you get to level 17. The others, See Invisibility (redundant with The Third Eye), True Seeing, Tongues are too circumstantial imo. Borrowed Knowledge is a good candidate, in my campaign I would, except we have a Bard (jack of all trades) so it's not that helpful
Diviners work optimally under a very specific party strategy. You should always know what your next combat will be long before it starts. You do that with Arcane Eye or Scrying. Then, you organize.with your party. PCs sneak into place. Bards and Clerics cast their buffs. Wizards summon their minions. Then, initiative is rolled, but because the enemy hasn’t engaged with you, nothing happens. Your party members all hold their action. Next round, all your party members act simultaneously. If you’ve done this right, it should take a round or three for the enemy to get its stuff together.
If you have a Barbarian in your party who just wants to attack immediately, all the time, this won’t work. You should probably choose a different subclass.
This, exactly. It's a nice feature to have when it comes up, but you can't rely on it coming up unless you contrive a plan to spend resources just so that you can recover them by spending more (and more valuable) resources. It's handy to occasionally get some slots back over the course of the day so you're not spending as many resources, but it's a waste to spend resources just to trigger the ability.
For this reason, lucky wouldn't be having an encounter before the dungeon just so you have expended slots to recover. Lucky would be not having that encounter in the first place, saving your resources for the dungeon, and having an opportunity to recover a few spell slots while you're in there.
I don't think you are following the tradeoff correctly here. You are not trading a 5th level slot for a 4th level slot. You are using a 5th level spell to upcast a spell and get 4 more spell slots totaling 8 levels (1 4th, 1 3rd, 1 2nd, 1 1st) which you use over 4 consecutive turns in that order.
You spend your 5th level slot the 1st turn and 4 turns later you have cast a 5th level spell, 4th level spell, 3rd level spell, 2nd level spell and 1st level spell and you have only used 1 5th level slot to do all this.
You are right one 5th level slot for one lower level slot is almost never worth it, but one 5th level slot for all those slots above is usually more than worth it even without considering the 5th-level casting.
Too bad when fighting a monster, the number of spell slots you use isn't relevant. The amount of damage per round is.
This ability is a trap. It’s just plain bad and you’ll suffer trying to make it work. Just forget it, you already have Portent that is awesome and move ahead.
Trying to max it out is a trap. Getting another slot back when you have good reason to use a locate or arcane eye or legend lore is amazing
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Exactly. It's wonderful to have when it happens to work out that way, and I would much rather have a weak or circumstantial ability than no ability at all, but there's zero reason to intentionally spend spell slots just to get lower ones back.
but that is not really what you are doing.
You are spending a higher level slot to get a higher level effect and a lower level slot. You need to consider the slot you are getting along with the slot you are using.
For example, I can use my 3rd level slot for a magic missile that does 17.5. Or I can use my 3rd level slot for a mind spike that does 18 on a failed save or 9 on successful save and I have 1 more 2nd level slot when the turn ends compared to using magic missile.
At the end of the turn, doing 17.5 points of damage and having 1 less 2nd level slot is worse than doing 18 with 1 more slot. It is comparable to doing 9 and having 1 more lower level slot.
Certainly there are a lot of variables here, but the point is it is never just trading a higher level slot for alower level 1.
Precisely. It’s a trap.
You're only getting it back if you've already spent a lower level slot. So what I meant (though in hindsight I admittedly said it wrong) is that spending a 4th level slot (and presumably a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level slot before it in that order, since we're talking about maximizing the ability) just so that you can get it back when you spend your higher level slot is dumb.
If you had a good reason to spend that 4th level slot, then getting it back later is great. But there's no reason to unnecessarily burn resources just so you can do that.