Currently playing ToA as a Wizard Chronurgist lvl 5 / Sorcerer Clockwork Soul lvl 1, just hit a level up. 2014 Rules. Struggling with how to proceed. I like to optimize and powerbuild. Chronurgist + Clockwork soul + Lucky feat + spells like Silvery Barbs = Forcing a lot rerolls. Can do pretty solid damage, but have found myself to be doing a lot of support through Restore Balance, Chronal Shift, Silvery Barbs, Counterspell, and even Rope Trick and Invisibility.
I will try to make best case for each path I'm considering.
Option 1: Artificer dip for Light/Medium Armor and Shield proficiency. I think this is the one tabletopbuilds would recommend as getting some medium armor and a shield would my make AC 15 - 18, with shield spell 20 - 23. And this is the Tomb of Annihilation we're talking about. I'd really love for this character to survive and see another campaign.
Option 2: Lvl6 Wizard for Momentary Stasis feature, Hypnotic Pattern and Slow spells. Excellent battlefield control / support feature and spells, and I could prepare an additional spell.
Option3: Lvl2 Sorcerer for two lvl1 spells and a lvl1 spell slot(x2 sorcerer points flexible casting), and progression towards Sorcerer lvl3. Having another lvl1 slot for Silvery Barbs and Sleep would be nice and eventually I'd like to hit Sorcerer 4 anyway.
End goal for overall character at the conclusion of ToA assuming we hit lvl11 is Wizard 6 / Sorcerer 4 / Artificer 1. If we somehow gain another level or two beyond that they'll go to wizard.
Any further deviation from wizard puts you further from 4th level wizard spells. If you weren’t multi-classed, at lvl 7 wizard you would already have access to polymorph, dimension door, greater invisibility, and more. Wiz6/sor1 and wiz5/sor2 have the same number and distribution of spell slots, but more levels of sorcerer would only give you access to lower level spells a wizard can already choose. If you commit to wizard you could still get 4th level wizard spells at Wiz7/Sor1 and 5lvl wiz spells at Wiz9/Sor1 by the end of ToA.
Artificer is in the same boat. There’s a small number of spells a level 1 artificer can choose that a level 6 wizard couldn’t choose, but they don’t measure up. Do you even need the shield and armor proficiency? Are you sure you can even find medium armor and shields in ToA? Spells like mage armor and shield should cover your AC, and ideally some more durable party members should be protecting you and taking the brunt of attacks anyways.
Any further deviation from wizard puts you further from 4th level wizard spells. If you weren’t multi-classed, at lvl 7 wizard you would already have access to polymorph, dimension door, greater invisibility, and more. Wiz6/sor1 and wiz5/sor2 have the same number and distribution of spell slots, but more levels of sorcerer would only give you access to lower level spells a wizard can already choose. If you commit to wizard you could still get 4th level wizard spells at Wiz7/Sor1 and 5lvl wiz spells at Wiz9/Sor1 by the end of ToA.
Artificer is in the same boat. There’s a small number of spells a level 1 artificer can choose that a level 6 wizard couldn’t choose, but they don’t measure up. Do you even need the shield and armor proficiency? Are you sure you can even find medium armor and shields in ToA? Spells like mage armor and shield should cover your AC, and ideally some more durable party members should be protecting you and taking the brunt of attacks anyways.
You are absolutely correct, delayed access to learning lvl4 spells is a drawback, but hopefully only a delay and not permanent. I'd also like to point out that as a lvl7 multiclass spellcaster I'd have a lvl4 spell slot with which to upcast.
Sorcerer lvl2 is just a stepping stone on the way to lvl4. I really believe the synergy of Seeking and Empowered spell metamagic(among others) with the Chronurgy/Clockwork features and Lucky Feat will more than make up for not going pure wizard.
The question is what's more urgent? Getting sturdy or moving towards that means of synergy?
As far as the artificer dip goes primary importance is 100% the armor and shield proficiency. However, the cantrips and lvl1 spells actually offer a decent amount of utility, functional team support, and tactical opportunity. Magical Tinkering could be used tactically I guess.
Absolutely yes high AC increases survivability and the potential number of attacks made before being downed. Very good point, I am absolutely just crossing my fingers and hoping to pick up armor and a shield. But considering where we are in the campaign I'd be shocked if theres absolutely none around. Ideally yea Alexis the Barbarian is eating all the damage but it's no quarentee, and I really want Redo to survive.
Here's a great article(of many) from Tabletopbuilds on sturdiness/survivability and the other stuff I mentioned. https://tabletopbuilds.com/the-squishy-caster-fallacy/ TLDR: Higher AC = higher survivability = more attacks made over time/before downed.
Between the synergy of chronurgy/clockwork + metamagic + lucky + on theme spells, sturdiness from high AC, and good old party tactics lower spell levels(upcasted) is an acceptable trade off. The question I appreciate you helping me answer is how to order the levels along the way.
Any further deviation from wizard puts you further from 4th level wizard spells. If you weren’t multi-classed, at lvl 7 wizard you would already have access to polymorph, dimension door, greater invisibility, and more. Wiz6/sor1 and wiz5/sor2 have the same number and distribution of spell slots, but more levels of sorcerer would only give you access to lower level spells a wizard can already choose. If you commit to wizard you could still get 4th level wizard spells at Wiz7/Sor1 and 5lvl wiz spells at Wiz9/Sor1 by the end of ToA.
Artificer is in the same boat. There’s a small number of spells a level 1 artificer can choose that a level 6 wizard couldn’t choose, but they don’t measure up. Do you even need the shield and armor proficiency? Are you sure you can even find medium armor and shields in ToA? Spells like mage armor and shield should cover your AC, and ideally some more durable party members should be protecting you and taking the brunt of attacks anyways.
You are absolutely correct, delayed access to learning lvl4 spells is a drawback, but hopefully only a delay and not permanent. I'd also like to point out that as a lvl7 multiclass spellcaster I'd have a lvl4 spell slot with which to upcast.
Sorcerer lvl2 is just a stepping stone on the way to lvl4. I really believe the synergy of Seeking and Empowered spell metamagic(among others) with the Chronurgy/Clockwork features and Lucky Feat will more than make up for not going pure wizard.
The question is what's more urgent? Getting sturdy or moving towards that means of synergy?
As far as the artificer dip goes primary importance is 100% the armor and shield proficiency. However, the cantrips and lvl1 spells actually offer a decent amount of utility, functional team support, and tactical opportunity. Magical Tinkering could be used tactically I guess.
Absolutely yes high AC increases survivability and the potential number of attacks made before being downed. Very good point, I am absolutely just crossing my fingers and hoping to pick up armor and a shield. But considering where we are in the campaign I'd be shocked if theres absolutely none around. Ideally yea Alexis the Barbarian is eating all the damage but it's no quarentee, and I really want Redo to survive.
Here's a great article(of many) from Tabletopbuilds on sturdiness/survivability and the other stuff I mentioned. https://tabletopbuilds.com/the-squishy-caster-fallacy/ TLDR: Higher AC = higher survivability = more attacks made over time/before downed.
Between the synergy of chronurgy/clockwork + metamagic + lucky + on theme spells, sturdiness from high AC, and good old party tactics lower spell levels(upcasted) is an acceptable trade off. The question I appreciate you helping me answer is how to order the levels along the way.
EightWorlds as much as it PAINS me to admit, I'm now of the opinion that I must go with Wizard 6. When you factor in the context of the situation the player characters are in, the math changes. Being that there is a higher chance that the party will have to do a bunch of fighting before the armor and shield are even found, if they're found at all, means I'd be better off increasing firepower now, defensive capabilities later. You mentioned polymorph specifically, you're right, must have at this point as with hypnotic pattern. I also severely undervalued the 6th level chronurgy subclass feature Momentary Stasis. I can search for the stuff I need and dip Artificer later.
It sounds like you already have your answer, but I am putting this here in case someone else finds it useful.
The problem with multi-classing a spell casting class, is (as has been pointed out) that you put yourself behind on reaching the higher level spells. For those new to the game who do not understand the consequences of this, consider this.
If you are playing a published adventure (as opposed to a complete homebrew campaign), the published adventure will make certain assumptions of your abilies based upon your level. The adventure may toss in encounters or traps that inflict conditions that require spells like Greater Restoration to remove. So if an adventure assumes your party is 9th level, and therefore any full-caster will have access to 5th level spells, the adventure will toss in stuff that may require 5th level spells (like Medusa and Basilisks that can turn your character to stone). Not an issue if your cleric can just cast a Greater Restoration after the fight, or after a long rest - but if that cleric multi-classed, they could still be 3 levels away from being able to do so.
What the published adventure considered a level appropriate hindrance, has instead become a death sentence for the afflicted character.
In almost every case, the ability to cast a higher level spell is better than the ability to cast more lower level spells or to upcast lower level spells. Let's also not forget that every 4 levels within a class, gives access to ability score adjustements/feats. Published adventures that this into account as well. You may find that the monsters are resisting your spells more often, because your spell DC is behind what your overall level would otherwise suggest (because your caster decided to be a 3/3/2 instead of a 4/4 or straight 8th level). As such, I advise caution in multi-classing with casters.
I multi-class casters - but I only do so after understanding the risk, and I make sure that my reason for wanting the multi-class outweighs what i would be giving up.
Currently playing ToA as a Wizard Chronurgist lvl 5 / Sorcerer Clockwork Soul lvl 1, just hit a level up. 2014 Rules. Struggling with how to proceed. I like to optimize and powerbuild. Chronurgist + Clockwork soul + Lucky feat + spells like Silvery Barbs = Forcing a lot rerolls. Can do pretty solid damage, but have found myself to be doing a lot of support through Restore Balance, Chronal Shift, Silvery Barbs, Counterspell, and even Rope Trick and Invisibility.
I will try to make best case for each path I'm considering.
Option 1: Artificer dip for Light/Medium Armor and Shield proficiency. I think this is the one tabletopbuilds would recommend as getting some medium armor and a shield would my make AC 15 - 18, with shield spell 20 - 23. And this is the Tomb of Annihilation we're talking about. I'd really love for this character to survive and see another campaign.
Option 2: Lvl6 Wizard for Momentary Stasis feature, Hypnotic Pattern and Slow spells. Excellent battlefield control / support feature and spells, and I could prepare an additional spell.
Option3: Lvl2 Sorcerer for two lvl1 spells and a lvl1 spell slot(x2 sorcerer points flexible casting), and progression towards Sorcerer lvl3. Having another lvl1 slot for Silvery Barbs and Sleep would be nice and eventually I'd like to hit Sorcerer 4 anyway.
End goal for overall character at the conclusion of ToA assuming we hit lvl11 is Wizard 6 / Sorcerer 4 / Artificer 1. If we somehow gain another level or two beyond that they'll go to wizard.
Any further deviation from wizard puts you further from 4th level wizard spells. If you weren’t multi-classed, at lvl 7 wizard you would already have access to polymorph, dimension door, greater invisibility, and more. Wiz6/sor1 and wiz5/sor2 have the same number and distribution of spell slots, but more levels of sorcerer would only give you access to lower level spells a wizard can already choose. If you commit to wizard you could still get 4th level wizard spells at Wiz7/Sor1 and 5lvl wiz spells at Wiz9/Sor1 by the end of ToA.
Artificer is in the same boat. There’s a small number of spells a level 1 artificer can choose that a level 6 wizard couldn’t choose, but they don’t measure up. Do you even need the shield and armor proficiency? Are you sure you can even find medium armor and shields in ToA? Spells like mage armor and shield should cover your AC, and ideally some more durable party members should be protecting you and taking the brunt of attacks anyways.
You are absolutely correct, delayed access to learning lvl4 spells is a drawback, but hopefully only a delay and not permanent. I'd also like to point out that as a lvl7 multiclass spellcaster I'd have a lvl4 spell slot with which to upcast.
Sorcerer lvl2 is just a stepping stone on the way to lvl4. I really believe the synergy of Seeking and Empowered spell metamagic(among others) with the Chronurgy/Clockwork features and Lucky Feat will more than make up for not going pure wizard.
The question is what's more urgent? Getting sturdy or moving towards that means of synergy?
As far as the artificer dip goes primary importance is 100% the armor and shield proficiency. However, the cantrips and lvl1 spells actually offer a decent amount of utility, functional team support, and tactical opportunity. Magical Tinkering could be used tactically I guess.
Absolutely yes high AC increases survivability and the potential number of attacks made before being downed. Very good point, I am absolutely just crossing my fingers and hoping to pick up armor and a shield. But considering where we are in the campaign I'd be shocked if theres absolutely none around. Ideally yea Alexis the Barbarian is eating all the damage but it's no quarentee, and I really want Redo to survive.
Here's a great article(of many) from Tabletopbuilds on sturdiness/survivability and the other stuff I mentioned. https://tabletopbuilds.com/the-squishy-caster-fallacy/ TLDR: Higher AC = higher survivability = more attacks made over time/before downed.
Between the synergy of chronurgy/clockwork + metamagic + lucky + on theme spells, sturdiness from high AC, and good old party tactics lower spell levels(upcasted) is an acceptable trade off. The question I appreciate you helping me answer is how to order the levels along the way.
EightWorlds as much as it PAINS me to admit, I'm now of the opinion that I must go with Wizard 6. When you factor in the context of the situation the player characters are in, the math changes. Being that there is a higher chance that the party will have to do a bunch of fighting before the armor and shield are even found, if they're found at all, means I'd be better off increasing firepower now, defensive capabilities later. You mentioned polymorph specifically, you're right, must have at this point as with hypnotic pattern. I also severely undervalued the 6th level chronurgy subclass feature Momentary Stasis. I can search for the stuff I need and dip Artificer later.
It sounds like you already have your answer, but I am putting this here in case someone else finds it useful.
The problem with multi-classing a spell casting class, is (as has been pointed out) that you put yourself behind on reaching the higher level spells. For those new to the game who do not understand the consequences of this, consider this.
If you are playing a published adventure (as opposed to a complete homebrew campaign), the published adventure will make certain assumptions of your abilies based upon your level. The adventure may toss in encounters or traps that inflict conditions that require spells like Greater Restoration to remove. So if an adventure assumes your party is 9th level, and therefore any full-caster will have access to 5th level spells, the adventure will toss in stuff that may require 5th level spells (like Medusa and Basilisks that can turn your character to stone). Not an issue if your cleric can just cast a Greater Restoration after the fight, or after a long rest - but if that cleric multi-classed, they could still be 3 levels away from being able to do so.
What the published adventure considered a level appropriate hindrance, has instead become a death sentence for the afflicted character.
In almost every case, the ability to cast a higher level spell is better than the ability to cast more lower level spells or to upcast lower level spells. Let's also not forget that every 4 levels within a class, gives access to ability score adjustements/feats. Published adventures that this into account as well. You may find that the monsters are resisting your spells more often, because your spell DC is behind what your overall level would otherwise suggest (because your caster decided to be a 3/3/2 instead of a 4/4 or straight 8th level). As such, I advise caution in multi-classing with casters.
I multi-class casters - but I only do so after understanding the risk, and I make sure that my reason for wanting the multi-class outweighs what i would be giving up.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.