Zombies is pretty much automation. With proper support and training, the people who lose out to automation can learn a new trade and can concentrate on bettering themselves or such. Automation is not inherently bad, nor are zombies, it all dependa on how a state or power organizes its labour force afterwards
I would enjoy seeing a Warforged Necromancer. Its logic being the if flesh and blood humanoids can construct automatons and use them as mindless slaves to do their bidding (like golems and shield guardians) it only fair that it take the bodies of dead humanoids and animate them to do its bidding. Tit-for-Tat.
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Check out my Disabled & Dragons Youtube Channel for 5e Monster and Player Tactics. Helping the Disabled Community and Players and DM’s (both new and experienced) get into D&D. Plus there is a talking Dragon named Quill.
A nice idea of mine I always wanted to toy with for next wizard I make. A combo of grave cleric and necromancer wizard. Make use of speak with dead, or perhaps ask the dm if it were possible to learn it as a wizard. But regardless you would be 6th level and maybe a once a day use of the spell by hinting the former by contributing to churches and temples in the game when you pop into town. Not the usual spot but helps to hint your intentions while inside the game.
So the main idea is this. Using speak with dead, ask if there are any last wishes or statements to give to family. Possibly ask where the family is. Asking for permission to bring them back from the dead under the pretense to help them get back and laid to rest properly. Then actually honor the agreements. Who knows, might be useful later on when you can get local or big town clerics to confirm. with another spell used under a cone of telling truths. Pull the memory out and they can confirm your honesty and that you have asked/received permission.
Necromancy seems a lot less evil when you get consent to do it. Lesser moreso evil when local churches can agree with you for honoring the dead and their wishes. Gets to be good when you show up to doors with a letter to inform of the death and last wishes of the person. Maybe even make use of gentle repose. At that point it would be hard pressed to be detected as evil, even if surrounded by the paladins using their fancy smancy detecting button. Plus allies in the church in the game could be a pretty useful ally later. Or if you get to bargaining with some gods for something later. Use them good karma points.
A lot of our relationship with the dead comes from culture. In Mexico, during the Day of the Dead, people used to dig up their dead relatives and bring them into the house. This was done to maintain the family relationship to their ancestors.
When creating a Necromancer, it is a good idea to discuss with the GM what the world is. It usually isn't as European as traditional fantasy was.
You could easily create a culture where Animating Dead was a sign of respect.
To clarify, the Day of the Dead tradition has no relationship to the undead whatsoever. And "dig up dead relatives" is not literal, but figurative.
In a world where magic can seize the bodies of the dead and imbue them with animating spirits, of course, that would influence and perhaps change how different cultures regard the dead.
To clarify, the Day of the Dead tradition has no relationship to the undead whatsoever. And "dig up dead relatives" is not literal, but figurative.
In a world where magic can seize the bodies of the dead and imbue them with animating spirits, of course, that would influence and perhaps change how different cultures regard the dead.
I did NOT say that Dia de los Muertes had anything to do with the undead. I was simply commenting, rather explicitly I thought, that different cultures have different relationships with the dead.
Kobold Magazine (Fall 2011, Issue 19) had an article about a class called White Necromancer. They are arcane spellcasters, and as they level, their necromantic spells that typically have the Evil descriptor stop classifying as Evil. Mindless undead they create have neutral alignment and intelligent undead have alignment matching the White Necromancer. They can transfer part of their own health to allies, turn incorporeal, and even get saves vs death in situations where a roll would not normally be granted.
I'm actually doing the exact same thing at the moment, trying to find a good Necromancer. My idea was to play one who was actually more of a Scholar than an evil being hell bent on life eternal. In my many google's I actually found a 5e Deity who is the Neutral Good God of Undeath and Necromancy. His name is Altzmyr and has an amazing backstory which shows that there are actually a really good number of good aligned necromancers in the 5e world. The link is below to his page, and its a brilliant read. You should be able to get a lot out of it. I know I did!
White Necromancers are a thing, they are just specialized in necromantic spells. That said, the power of necromancy comes from raising and enslaving the dead, and IMO, that is ethically evil. So, to be a "good" necromancer, in my opinion would be forgoing his strongest kit. Yes, I have seen the arguments that some folks have raised about how raising zombies isn't really evil because the person is dead and no longer care, but I do not subscribe to that. if I were DMing, raising undead would be an evil act. I would consider letting you PLAY an evil character, but you wouldn't have a horse of zombies and claim to be good.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Altzmyr would speak with the dead and basically request that they assist him. It was more about communing with the dead. Could be a stretch but if a DM works with you, you could make your raise dead a skill check also to see if the dead are compliant or resistant against you. If they’re resistant and you do it anyway, could start to effect your alignment.
As the DM, I would not work with a necromancer on undead. That's what I am saying. You can have your zombie armies, and you can behave how you want. You /will/ be reviled for it however.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
as a wise man once said: "necromancy is just advanced recycling", do whatever, many enchantment spells are way more morally repugnant than necromancy as a whole anyways and as many have pointed out many necromancy spells would actually be quite helpful to society
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
So the main idea is this. Using speak with dead, ask if there are any last wishes or statements to give to family. Possibly ask where the family is. Asking for permission to bring them back from the dead under the pretense to help them get back and laid to rest properly. Then actually honor the agreements. Who knows, might be useful later on when you can get local or big town clerics to confirm. with another spell used under a cone of telling truths. Pull the memory out and they can confirm your honesty and that you have asked/received permission.
just remember the caveat of speak with dead: the only thing that returns is the animating spirit, not the soul and as a result the corpse still cannot remember anything that has happened since the person died
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
as a wise man once said: "necromancy is just advanced recycling", do whatever, many enchantment spells are way more morally repugnant than necromancy as a whole anyways and as many have pointed out many necromancy spells would actually be quite helpful to society
I don't disagree with you on enchantment either.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
White Necromancers are a thing, they are just specialized in necromantic spells. That said, the power of necromancy comes from raising and enslaving the dead, and IMO, that is ethically evil. So, to be a "good" necromancer, in my opinion would be forgoing his strongest kit. Yes, I have seen the arguments that some folks have raised about how raising zombies isn't really evil because the person is dead and no longer care, but I do not subscribe to that. if I were DMing, raising undead would be an evil act. I would consider letting you PLAY an evil character, but you wouldn't have a horse of zombies and claim to be good.
if the person gives consent for you to use their corpse after death and you use said undead minion in a way the person would have wanted, i cannot really see how that could be considered inherently evil
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
The two main points here are great, but the second brings some problems. One, it's entirely possible to play a good aligned Necromancer. Two, you have to have the dm on bored so you can add some extra RP in there so you're not raising unwilling dead. So although it does work, if you want to raise the dead, and not just use the fun necro dmg/buff/whatever spell, you would need your DM on bored. Some I'd bet would help, some others may think it's just to much extra added in.
There’s a popular RPG setting in Brazil called Tormenta where there’s a famous good Necromancer, who actually employs a kind-hearted cute Lich. He uses his knowledge to help people and etc.
I don’t know if there are any translation over there, but it’s insightful. The good Necromancer name is Vladislav.
White Necromancers are a thing, they are just specialized in necromantic spells. That said, the power of necromancy comes from raising and enslaving the dead, and IMO, that is ethically evil. So, to be a "good" necromancer, in my opinion would be forgoing his strongest kit. Yes, I have seen the arguments that some folks have raised about how raising zombies isn't really evil because the person is dead and no longer care, but I do not subscribe to that. if I were DMing, raising undead would be an evil act. I would consider letting you PLAY an evil character, but you wouldn't have a horse of zombies and claim to be good.
if the person gives consent for you to use their corpse after death and you use said undead minion in a way the person would have wanted, i cannot really see how that could be considered inherently evil
You raise undead by channeling necrotic energy and implanting a little evil soul that wants to kill anything living; apparently skeletons and zombies have to be ordered not to attack living things, if you read up their entry in the DMG. Undead aren't just flesh- and bone-golems. They're mockeries of living beings that you effectively have to enslave or they'll go on murder sprees.
Necrotic energy and undeath is inherently aligned with the Evil outer planes. Enough of any type of energy affects the area around you- that's how lairs, thin barriers between worlds, and those crazy landscapes from Tasha's come about.
You could attract the attention of any number of evil-aligned fiends or gods that rule over undeath, which is bad for you and everyone around you.
There's plenty of reasons for considering necromancy to be an inherently evil act, especially since that's actually the default stance of D&D's lore.
"White Necromancers" do exist in D&D as well. But they're not going to be found in the wizard subclass - they're clerics. Every cleric has Turn Undead and the ability to put tortured souls to rest, they can speak with the departed, they commune with the gods of the afterlife.
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As long as we're talking about dead flesh walking around, I wouldn't think. Besides the stitching I'm not sure most people could tell the differences.
Zombies is pretty much automation. With proper support and training, the people who lose out to automation can learn a new trade and can concentrate on bettering themselves or such. Automation is not inherently bad, nor are zombies, it all dependa on how a state or power organizes its labour force afterwards
I would enjoy seeing a Warforged Necromancer. Its logic being the if flesh and blood humanoids can construct automatons and use them as mindless slaves to do their bidding (like golems and shield guardians) it only fair that it take the bodies of dead humanoids and animate them to do its bidding. Tit-for-Tat.
Check out my Disabled & Dragons Youtube Channel for 5e Monster and Player Tactics. Helping the Disabled Community and Players and DM’s (both new and experienced) get into D&D. Plus there is a talking Dragon named Quill.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPPmyTI0tZ6nM-bzY0IG3ww
A nice idea of mine I always wanted to toy with for next wizard I make. A combo of grave cleric and necromancer wizard. Make use of speak with dead, or perhaps ask the dm if it were possible to learn it as a wizard. But regardless you would be 6th level and maybe a once a day use of the spell by hinting the former by contributing to churches and temples in the game when you pop into town. Not the usual spot but helps to hint your intentions while inside the game.
So the main idea is this. Using speak with dead, ask if there are any last wishes or statements to give to family. Possibly ask where the family is. Asking for permission to bring them back from the dead under the pretense to help them get back and laid to rest properly. Then actually honor the agreements. Who knows, might be useful later on when you can get local or big town clerics to confirm. with another spell used under a cone of telling truths. Pull the memory out and they can confirm your honesty and that you have asked/received permission.
Necromancy seems a lot less evil when you get consent to do it. Lesser moreso evil when local churches can agree with you for honoring the dead and their wishes. Gets to be good when you show up to doors with a letter to inform of the death and last wishes of the person. Maybe even make use of gentle repose. At that point it would be hard pressed to be detected as evil, even if surrounded by the paladins using their fancy smancy detecting button. Plus allies in the church in the game could be a pretty useful ally later. Or if you get to bargaining with some gods for something later. Use them good karma points.
A lot of our relationship with the dead comes from culture. In Mexico, during the Day of the Dead, people used to dig up their dead relatives and bring them into the house. This was done to maintain the family relationship to their ancestors.
When creating a Necromancer, it is a good idea to discuss with the GM what the world is. It usually isn't as European as traditional fantasy was.
You could easily create a culture where Animating Dead was a sign of respect.
Have fun. Be creative. Work with your GM.
To clarify, the Day of the Dead tradition has no relationship to the undead whatsoever. And "dig up dead relatives" is not literal, but figurative.
In a world where magic can seize the bodies of the dead and imbue them with animating spirits, of course, that would influence and perhaps change how different cultures regard the dead.
I did NOT say that Dia de los Muertes had anything to do with the undead. I was simply commenting, rather explicitly I thought, that different cultures have different relationships with the dead.
I also said that in Mexico people _used to_ (as in "once upon a time, but no longer") dig up the dead. It is possible that I confused it with https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5238631/Indonesian-tribe-dig-corpses-annual-ritual.html but I don't think so.
This is old, so i don't know if it will help.
Kobold Magazine (Fall 2011, Issue 19) had an article about a class called White Necromancer. They are arcane spellcasters, and as they level, their necromantic spells that typically have the Evil descriptor stop classifying as Evil. Mindless undead they create have neutral alignment and intelligent undead have alignment matching the White Necromancer. They can transfer part of their own health to allies, turn incorporeal, and even get saves vs death in situations where a roll would not normally be granted.
Hope that helps?
I'm actually doing the exact same thing at the moment, trying to find a good Necromancer. My idea was to play one who was actually more of a Scholar than an evil being hell bent on life eternal. In my many google's I actually found a 5e Deity who is the Neutral Good God of Undeath and Necromancy. His name is Altzmyr and has an amazing backstory which shows that there are actually a really good number of good aligned necromancers in the 5e world. The link is below to his page, and its a brilliant read. You should be able to get a lot out of it. I know I did!
Altzmyr Character Link
White Necromancers are a thing, they are just specialized in necromantic spells. That said, the power of necromancy comes from raising and enslaving the dead, and IMO, that is ethically evil. So, to be a "good" necromancer, in my opinion would be forgoing his strongest kit. Yes, I have seen the arguments that some folks have raised about how raising zombies isn't really evil because the person is dead and no longer care, but I do not subscribe to that. if I were DMing, raising undead would be an evil act. I would consider letting you PLAY an evil character, but you wouldn't have a horse of zombies and claim to be good.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Altzmyr would speak with the dead and basically request that they assist him. It was more about communing with the dead. Could be a stretch but if a DM works with you, you could make your raise dead a skill check also to see if the dead are compliant or resistant against you. If they’re resistant and you do it anyway, could start to effect your alignment.
As the DM, I would not work with a necromancer on undead. That's what I am saying. You can have your zombie armies, and you can behave how you want. You /will/ be reviled for it however.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
as a wise man once said: "necromancy is just advanced recycling", do whatever, many enchantment spells are way more morally repugnant than necromancy as a whole anyways and as many have pointed out many necromancy spells would actually be quite helpful to society
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
just remember the caveat of speak with dead: the only thing that returns is the animating spirit, not the soul and as a result the corpse still cannot remember anything that has happened since the person died
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I don't disagree with you on enchantment either.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
if the person gives consent for you to use their corpse after death and you use said undead minion in a way the person would have wanted, i cannot really see how that could be considered inherently evil
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
The two main points here are great, but the second brings some problems. One, it's entirely possible to play a good aligned Necromancer. Two, you have to have the dm on bored so you can add some extra RP in there so you're not raising unwilling dead. So although it does work, if you want to raise the dead, and not just use the fun necro dmg/buff/whatever spell, you would need your DM on bored. Some I'd bet would help, some others may think it's just to much extra added in.
There’s a popular RPG setting in Brazil called Tormenta where there’s a famous good Necromancer, who actually employs a kind-hearted cute Lich. He uses his knowledge to help people and etc.
I don’t know if there are any translation over there, but it’s insightful. The good Necromancer name is Vladislav.
You raise undead by channeling necrotic energy and implanting a little evil soul that wants to kill anything living; apparently skeletons and zombies have to be ordered not to attack living things, if you read up their entry in the DMG. Undead aren't just flesh- and bone-golems. They're mockeries of living beings that you effectively have to enslave or they'll go on murder sprees.
Necrotic energy and undeath is inherently aligned with the Evil outer planes. Enough of any type of energy affects the area around you- that's how lairs, thin barriers between worlds, and those crazy landscapes from Tasha's come about.
You could attract the attention of any number of evil-aligned fiends or gods that rule over undeath, which is bad for you and everyone around you.
There's plenty of reasons for considering necromancy to be an inherently evil act, especially since that's actually the default stance of D&D's lore.
"White Necromancers" do exist in D&D as well. But they're not going to be found in the wizard subclass - they're clerics. Every cleric has Turn Undead and the ability to put tortured souls to rest, they can speak with the departed, they commune with the gods of the afterlife.