I'm starting a new campaign as a L1 tiefling wizard soon, and I wanted to pick a subclass before we play while there's still time to change things. Assuming the DM gives me permission to play any subclass, which one would be best?
I'm aiming for a more damage-oriented build, possibly with melee capabilities. Out of combat utility isn't particularly important to me as a subclass feature, since the spells you choose aren't restricted and I don't mind getting creative with solutions. My character is an intellectual academic type with a penchant for chaotic experimentation. It'd be nice to have the subclass tie into that somehow, but honestly I can justify any choice in-character and having fun playing around with the mechanics is more important to me. I've mostly narrowed down my options to:
School of Evocation- definitely damage-oriented, sculpt spells seems useful, overchannel is a good capstone
School of War Magic- arcane deflection seems useful and deflecting shroud is cool, though power surge seems kinda weak (3 extra damage once per short rest unless you've used counterspell/dispel magic recently? and the surges go back to 1 after every long rest? is there something I'm missing?)
Bladesinger- Bladesong is a great ability and should last the duration of most encounters, definitely allows for melee combat, extra attack is nice
Lore Master- very thematic for the character (especially with arcana expertise), weave magic offers some cool rp potential, prodigious memory is a good backup when things inevitably go to shit
I think I'm leaning towards the latter two more, but I don't want to rush my decision and regret it five levels later. The School of Conjuration also seems like it could be fun. It's definitely not my first choice, but I like the possibilities offered by minor conjuration and the benefits to concentration spells seem nice. If it helps, my current stats are STR- 9 DEX- 16 CON- 14 INT- 18 WIS- 14 CHA- 12
Power Surge is definitely underwhelming, but the better part is the Int modifier bonus to Initiative. If your Dex is decent, it should mean you will go earlier in combat, which is always good for a wizard. Fireball early, fireball often.
I’d say go Evocation or Bladesinger. If you want to go for a more straight up damage build Wizard, then those are the two that will definitely get it done for you. Plus Evocation has the second most spells in the game (right behind Transmutation) so when you find spells scrolls or books there is a higher chance that they might be Evocation since there is so many spells of that type in the game, and they will cost you half as much to copy them into your spellbook.
I’d suggest picking a couple of options and then seeing what happens when you’re playing since you pick your school at 2nd level. I ended up going with a school that shocked me with my current wizard because it fit into the rest of the party the best.
What kind of challenges does your DM use most often?
Most important, which suits your playstyle? None of the abilities are much use unless you play to their strengths. Example. I like Conjuration for it's utility out of combat, but having an extra Misty Step and the Concentration bump work best for my style. Id you like tossing AoE around alot then Evocation is your thing.
I thought Lore Master was shown to be OP when they nerfed it in Xanathar's Guide. Straight up it doesn't add up much individually but I think War Mage is best for Wizards who like to stray close to the fire of battle.
Power Surge is definitely underwhelming, but the better part is the Int modifier bonus to Initiative. If your Dex is decent, it should mean you will go earlier in combat, which is always good for a wizard. Fireball early, fireball often.
That's fair, the power of a consistently good initiative shouldn't be overlooked (especially with a +7 bonus to any roll damn)
I’d say go Evocation or Bladesinger. If you want to go for a more straight up damage build Wizard, then those are the two that will definitely get it done for you. Plus Evocation has the second most spells in the game (right behind Transmutation) so when you find spells scrolls or books there is a higher chance that they might be Evocation since there is so many spells of that type in the game, and they will cost you half as much to copy them into your spellbook.
Bladesinger definitely seems like a strong option, probably my first or second choice overall. I hadn't considered the reduced cost for copying evocation spells down though- that would definitely come in handy down the line
I’d suggest picking a couple of options and then seeing what happens when you’re playing since you pick your school at 2nd level. I ended up going with a school that shocked me with my current wizard because it fit into the rest of the party the best.
I would, but several of the options have features that could change what I pick at first level (like lore master gives an arcana proficiency, which means I could start with perception instead) and I can't change that after we start.
What kind of challenges does your DM use most often?
Most important, which suits your playstyle? None of the abilities are much use unless you play to their strengths. Example. I like Conjuration for it's utility out of combat, but having an extra Misty Step and the Concentration bump work best for my style. Id you like tossing AoE around alot then Evocation is your thing.
I thought Lore Master was shown to be OP when they nerfed it in Xanathar's Guide. Straight up it doesn't add up much individually but I think War Mage is best for Wizards who like to stray close to the fire of battle.
Since we haven't started yet, I don't really know the answers either. The other party members are a paladin, rogue, sorcerer, and fighter, but I don't know their future subclasses or preferred roles. All of the options suit my playstyle in different ways, so it's difficult to narrow it down.
This is my first time playing a full caster, so I don't know much about the mechanics and subclasses beyond what I've read above, but what about lore master is op? Is there a more balanced version and the one I linked is outdated?
When you get a proficiency that you already have from another source you can pick any proficiency in its place. Don’t let that control your starting choices.
Do you mean you want to be doing all that damage yourself? I ask because Conjurers are pretty powerful once you get to level 9 or so. Your summons are great for locking down opponents, direct damage, tanking, triggering traps, etc. At a high level, you also won't lose concentration on them.
Conjurers are pretty potent at lower levels too depending on your DM. They can always use Minor Conjuration to summon something useful that the party needs but didn’t think about. Crowbars, pitons, a stew pot, etc.. Even a weapon, although the weapon will disappear after one successful attack. I’m playing one right now who keeps conjuring a map, updating it, and then letting it disappear and my DM is letting me conjure the updated map with new information on it the next time I conjure it.
He’s not even 6th level yet so he doesn’t have his unlimited teleport yet!
I love that as an idea, and I love that your GM is letting you do that. Though, I hope someone near by is a cartographer for tool proficiency, otherwise your map has a potential to be fairly inaccurate down the road possibly.
I feel like your character description; reckless researcher. sounds like Evocation is a great fit! after all, someone had to do the research to get green-flame blade, booming blade, fire shield and others to the wizard spell list... what will your characters claim to fame be?
Value of War Magic vs Evocation is dependent on group size imo. Small group, War Magic is better as you'll probably be getting hit more and you'll benefit more from the extra initiative. Large group, Evocation is better as odds are someone is going to be in the way of your AoE...and someone is probably farther up the Initiative chain anyway.
Value of War Magic vs Evocation is dependent on group size imo. Small group, War Magic is better as you'll probably be getting hit more and odds are someone in the group will be up the Initiative chain. Large group, Evocation is better as odds are someone is going to be in the way of your AoE.
Wait, if someone in your own party is in the way of the AoE, isn't that worse?
This is really more a matter of play style. War Mage is for controllers. Evocation is for blasters.
Value of War Magic vs Evocation is dependent on group size imo. Small group, War Magic is better as you'll probably be getting hit more and odds are someone in the group will be up the Initiative chain. Large group, Evocation is better as odds are someone is going to be in the way of your AoE.
Wait, if someone in your own party is in the way of the AoE, isn't that worse?
This is really more a matter of play style. War Mage is for controllers. Evocation is for blasters.
not for an evocation wizard, they can pick allies that auto-save on their evocation spells (and don't take the 1/2 damage on saves) - which is the real perk of the specialty...so they can drop a fireball right on top of someone and only the enemies burn to a crisp. if you have a party of 7, everywhere you look there's allies in the way of your AoE. any other wizard than an evocation wizard would cause harm to the ally.
at least that's been my experience. i have a wizard in a group of 3, and one in a group of 7. Despite my preferred play style, I've been finding that the group size has a significant impact on how I play.
not for an evocation wizard, they can pick allies that auto-save on their evocation spells (and don't take the 1/2 damage on saves) - which is the real perk of the specialty...so they can drop a fireball right on top of someone and only the enemies burn to a crisp. if you have a party of 7, everywhere you look there's allies in the way of your AoE. any other wizard than an evocation wizard would cause harm to the ally.
at least that's been my experience. i have a wizard in a group of 3, and one in a group of 7. Despite my preferred play style, I've been finding that the group size has a significant impact on how I play.
You're right. I had forgotten that special feature. It's like a free Careful Spell just for the Evocation Wizards.
Bladesinger would have to have the requirements waved. It requires the wizard to be an elf, and your a tiefling.
As a player necromancy is going to be pointless unless necromancers animating undead and having swarms following them is not going to get you immediately attacked by all civilised peoples. (And your DM and the other players are alright with your turns past 6th level devolving into swarms of undead firing crossbows / bows, or grapple trip and dogpile)
Evokers are great if your part split up, get overun or otherwise somehow always end up mixed in with opponents which prevent an aoe being targeted safely.
Abjurers can be great, in that they are much more survivable than regular mages - but you need to consider how you will recharge your ward or its not that effective.
Transmuters (stone) UNBELIEVABLY beneficial to a party. 5E has two things every party wants and few get, one is paladins with +5 charisma to buff saves, the other is a reliable way to have the poor tank grabbing the flame / electricity / etc spewing monsters attention and not burn out all his hitpoints - customisable 'permanent resistance you can provide without concentration? Truly game changing, and when they dont need it, you can instead have Con save proficiency - Transmuters 5e's little gem award for wizards (2nd place)
Diviners 5e's little gem award for wizards (1st place) Some days you could live or die coming down to one stupid roll. Unless your a diviner and you just ignore the laws of causality and choose one of your two DM teeth gnashing portents. Some days are going to be better than others but whether its a low roll destined for enemies saving throws against spells that will mean their instant elimination or high rolls destined for you or your companions attacks / saves the Diviner is a game changer. Whats that? you dont have any divination spells past first level? Yes we all saw that coming.
Wizards aren't all that for 'blasting'. For proof just try googling ultimate blaster builds. You will find that Sorlocks are much more common for that.
I'd just pick whichever subclass you like best. You will barely miss the small damage bump war magic or evocation gets if you pick bladesinger or lore master. You are not going to outpace the paladin or barbarian in raw damage output. The only problem I have with bladesinger is that eventually you will just be better off casting spells rather than fighting. Kind of the issue with most Gish builds.
Personally I really like war magic. It fits my play style when playing a wizard. I really like banking spell slots for counterspell. At some point I plan on playing a war cleric 1/war wizard 19.
I'm starting a new campaign as a L1 tiefling wizard soon, and I wanted to pick a subclass before we play while there's still time to change things. Assuming the DM gives me permission to play any subclass, which one would be best?
I'm aiming for a more damage-oriented build, possibly with melee capabilities. Out of combat utility isn't particularly important to me as a subclass feature, since the spells you choose aren't restricted and I don't mind getting creative with solutions. My character is an intellectual academic type with a penchant for chaotic experimentation. It'd be nice to have the subclass tie into that somehow, but honestly I can justify any choice in-character and having fun playing around with the mechanics is more important to me. I've mostly narrowed down my options to:
School of Evocation- definitely damage-oriented, sculpt spells seems useful, overchannel is a good capstone
School of War Magic- arcane deflection seems useful and deflecting shroud is cool, though power surge seems kinda weak (3 extra damage once per short rest unless you've used counterspell/dispel magic recently? and the surges go back to 1 after every long rest? is there something I'm missing?)
Bladesinger- Bladesong is a great ability and should last the duration of most encounters, definitely allows for melee combat, extra attack is nice
Lore Master- very thematic for the character (especially with arcana expertise), weave magic offers some cool rp potential, prodigious memory is a good backup when things inevitably go to shit
I think I'm leaning towards the latter two more, but I don't want to rush my decision and regret it five levels later. The School of Conjuration also seems like it could be fun. It's definitely not my first choice, but I like the possibilities offered by minor conjuration and the benefits to concentration spells seem nice. If it helps, my current stats are STR- 9 DEX- 16 CON- 14 INT- 18 WIS- 14 CHA- 12
Any help greatly appreciated!
Re: war magic
Power Surge is definitely underwhelming, but the better part is the Int modifier bonus to Initiative. If your Dex is decent, it should mean you will go earlier in combat, which is always good for a wizard. Fireball early, fireball often.
I’d say go Evocation or Bladesinger. If you want to go for a more straight up damage build Wizard, then those are the two that will definitely get it done for you. Plus Evocation has the second most spells in the game (right behind Transmutation) so when you find spells scrolls or books there is a higher chance that they might be Evocation since there is so many spells of that type in the game, and they will cost you half as much to copy them into your spellbook.
I’d suggest picking a couple of options and then seeing what happens when you’re playing since you pick your school at 2nd level. I ended up going with a school that shocked me with my current wizard because it fit into the rest of the party the best.
Professional computer geek
Too many variables unknown.
How does your party interact in combat?
What kind of challenges does your DM use most often?
Most important, which suits your playstyle? None of the abilities are much use unless you play to their strengths. Example. I like Conjuration for it's utility out of combat, but having an extra Misty Step and the Concentration bump work best for my style. Id you like tossing AoE around alot then Evocation is your thing.
I thought Lore Master was shown to be OP when they nerfed it in Xanathar's Guide. Straight up it doesn't add up much individually but I think War Mage is best for Wizards who like to stray close to the fire of battle.
That's fair, the power of a consistently good initiative shouldn't be overlooked (especially with a +7 bonus to any roll damn)
Bladesinger definitely seems like a strong option, probably my first or second choice overall. I hadn't considered the reduced cost for copying evocation spells down though- that would definitely come in handy down the line
I would, but several of the options have features that could change what I pick at first level (like lore master gives an arcana proficiency, which means I could start with perception instead) and I can't change that after we start.
Since we haven't started yet, I don't really know the answers either. The other party members are a paladin, rogue, sorcerer, and fighter, but I don't know their future subclasses or preferred roles. All of the options suit my playstyle in different ways, so it's difficult to narrow it down.
This is my first time playing a full caster, so I don't know much about the mechanics and subclasses beyond what I've read above, but what about lore master is op? Is there a more balanced version and the one I linked is outdated?
When you get a proficiency that you already have from another source you can pick any proficiency in its place. Don’t let that control your starting choices.
Professional computer geek
Divination Wizard --> Portent.
Take Lucky feat.
Drive DM crazy when you always land your spells.
Do you mean you want to be doing all that damage yourself? I ask because Conjurers are pretty powerful once you get to level 9 or so. Your summons are great for locking down opponents, direct damage, tanking, triggering traps, etc. At a high level, you also won't lose concentration on them.
Conjurers are pretty potent at lower levels too depending on your DM. They can always use Minor Conjuration to summon something useful that the party needs but didn’t think about. Crowbars, pitons, a stew pot, etc.. Even a weapon, although the weapon will disappear after one successful attack. I’m playing one right now who keeps conjuring a map, updating it, and then letting it disappear and my DM is letting me conjure the updated map with new information on it the next time I conjure it.
He’s not even 6th level yet so he doesn’t have his unlimited teleport yet!
Professional computer geek
I love that as an idea, and I love that your GM is letting you do that. Though, I hope someone near by is a cartographer for tool proficiency, otherwise your map has a potential to be fairly inaccurate down the road possibly.
I feel like your character description; reckless researcher. sounds like Evocation is a great fit! after all, someone had to do the research to get green-flame blade, booming blade, fire shield and others to the wizard spell list... what will your characters claim to fame be?
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.
Value of War Magic vs Evocation is dependent on group size imo. Small group, War Magic is better as you'll probably be getting hit more and you'll benefit more from the extra initiative. Large group, Evocation is better as odds are someone is going to be in the way of your AoE...and someone is probably farther up the Initiative chain anyway.
edited to clarify my initiative comment.
Guide to the Five Factions (PWYW)
Deck of Decks
Wait, if someone in your own party is in the way of the AoE, isn't that worse?
This is really more a matter of play style. War Mage is for controllers. Evocation is for blasters.
not for an evocation wizard, they can pick allies that auto-save on their evocation spells (and don't take the 1/2 damage on saves) - which is the real perk of the specialty...so they can drop a fireball right on top of someone and only the enemies burn to a crisp. if you have a party of 7, everywhere you look there's allies in the way of your AoE. any other wizard than an evocation wizard would cause harm to the ally.
at least that's been my experience. i have a wizard in a group of 3, and one in a group of 7. Despite my preferred play style, I've been finding that the group size has a significant impact on how I play.
Guide to the Five Factions (PWYW)
Deck of Decks
You're right. I had forgotten that special feature. It's like a free Careful Spell just for the Evocation Wizards.
Bladesinger would have to have the requirements waved. It requires the wizard to be an elf, and your a tiefling.
As a player necromancy is going to be pointless unless necromancers animating undead and having swarms following them is not going to get you immediately attacked by all civilised peoples. (And your DM and the other players are alright with your turns past 6th level devolving into swarms of undead firing crossbows / bows, or grapple trip and dogpile)
Evokers are great if your part split up, get overun or otherwise somehow always end up mixed in with opponents which prevent an aoe being targeted safely.
Abjurers can be great, in that they are much more survivable than regular mages - but you need to consider how you will recharge your ward or its not that effective.
Transmuters (stone) UNBELIEVABLY beneficial to a party. 5E has two things every party wants and few get, one is paladins with +5 charisma to buff saves, the other is a reliable way to have the poor tank grabbing the flame / electricity / etc spewing monsters attention and not burn out all his hitpoints - customisable 'permanent resistance you can provide without concentration? Truly game changing, and when they dont need it, you can instead have Con save proficiency - Transmuters 5e's little gem award for wizards (2nd place)
Diviners 5e's little gem award for wizards (1st place) Some days you could live or die coming down to one stupid roll. Unless your a diviner and you just ignore the laws of causality and choose one of your two DM teeth gnashing portents. Some days are going to be better than others but whether its a low roll destined for enemies saving throws against spells that will mean their instant elimination or high rolls destined for you or your companions attacks / saves the Diviner is a game changer. Whats that? you dont have any divination spells past first level? Yes we all saw that coming.
The "Sculpt Spell" feature of Evocation is deceptively good in roleplaying...
Example: Interrogation
Say you need to get information out of someone...blow up everything around him with "Burning Hands" or "Fireball".
"Sculpt Spells" can keep them from any actual harm...but they are probably scared out of their minds at that point.
Boom...advantage on Intimidation checks.
"Shocking Grasp" a pool of water...protect your friends from harm, electrocute the enemy.
Fire a "Lightning Bolt" THROUGH your massive Goliath friend safely, taking the person fighting him completely by surprise with disadvantage.
Try and spin the immunity to damage in strategic and tactical ways, and Evocation is SO satisfying.
That description was...
evocative. :)
Seriously, though, I tend to not play blasty characters, otherwise, I would be trying this out.
Wizards aren't all that for 'blasting'. For proof just try googling ultimate blaster builds. You will find that Sorlocks are much more common for that.
I'd just pick whichever subclass you like best. You will barely miss the small damage bump war magic or evocation gets if you pick bladesinger or lore master. You are not going to outpace the paladin or barbarian in raw damage output. The only problem I have with bladesinger is that eventually you will just be better off casting spells rather than fighting. Kind of the issue with most Gish builds.
Personally I really like war magic. It fits my play style when playing a wizard. I really like banking spell slots for counterspell. At some point I plan on playing a war cleric 1/war wizard 19.
Current Characters I am playing: Dr Konstantin van Wulf | Taegen Willowrun | Mad Magnar
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