Assuming standard array, I'd put 10 in strength, 14 in dex, 13 in con, 15 in int, 12 in wisdom, 8 in charisma. With high elf the dex and int would be 16. Point buy, I'd find a way to nudge the con to 14, rolling I'd put the priorities in the same spots remembering even is what helps so I'd put odd stats in my +1(in), and even in my +2(dex) if they are close. 4th level I'd bump int. Skills from background I'd take stealth, athletics,(sneaking around and getting into a good position are nice for archers) arcana, investigation 2 best class skills IMO.
Prestidigitation, mending, mage hand 3 solid utility cantrips. What spells you want to take are kind of dependent on your style and where the campaign takes you. I almost always play those by ear and see what we need. I generally like to start with a couple rituals to benefit from the wizards ritual caster ability.
Rules as written say using a weapon with 2-hands ends your bladesinging, which does count a bow as 2 handed. Which is fine as long as you save the bladesinging for getting into melee and switching to a 1 handed weapon.
Hand crossbows on the other hand have ranged and are 1 handed to fire, and the crossbow master feat lets you fire as a bonus action. Dark elves get free proficiency in hand crossbows.
Shape water, mold earth, presdigitation and minor illusion are great spells if you are creative. Mage hand, friends, and light are good all around spells.
Yea you absolutely cannot use a bow with Bladesong - it ends immediately if you attack with two hands. So your only option is a Hand Crossbow for physical ranged attacks. The Crossbow Expert Feat will be required because otherwise you will never be able to benefit from the level 6 extra attack of the Bladesinger (it removes the loading property which allows multiple attacks per turn).
Yeah it wont work as a archer, but you still get 2 attacks. Use the bow when at range when you are less likely to be attacked anyways, switch to blade singer if either you or they close.
Crossbow expert and Warcaster are useful feats for bladesingers who like to fight at mid-range to close-rang. As a bladesinger your have to keep in mind that you rarely if ever want to attack with two-handed weapons like bows. They are almost not worth keeping around because it will rarely be optimal for you to use such weapons. But if you have a bag of holding why not keep that option available?!
You could get something of the flavor of what you are looking for with a College of Valor Bard, as they are full casters and get proficiencies in martial weapons (including Longbow) as well as medium armor and shield proficiencies and Extra Attack at 6th level. You could also choose to play a race with Longbow proficiency and go College of Swords, although many of the sub class features don't work well for ranged attacks. Of course Bards aren't the damage dealer that Wizards are, but they have a lot of other things going for them.
A bow will not work that well on a bladesinger, you are better off with a hand crossbow. If your DM allows it, I would consider trading your longsword or bow proficiency for a hand crossbow. If not consider a Drow instead.
In any case, this is certainly a viable build. Since you are ranged I don't think most of the normal spell selections on a bladesinger are relevant for your intended build. Most of the time on a bladesinger you want to invest heavily in defensive and mobility spells (shield, absorb elements, protection from good and evil, blur, mirror image, haste .....). If you are not going to be in melee though these are less important and you can pretty much build any wizard you want. With bladesong you are going to be really well defended for a blaster or control wizard.
Things I would consider:
Since you want to be ranged take a good ranged cantrip (I like Chill Touch but firebolt and Toll the Dead are good too). Also get shocking grasp which will allow you to disengage without using a spell slot if you accidentally get caught up in melee.
Feats to consider:
1. You can start with a 17 intelligence and pick up Eldritch Blast through spell sniper and then get Hex or Hunters Mark through Fey touched while also boosting your Intelligence. The thing about Eldritch blast is it increases your actual number of rays not the damage like other cantrips, so it scales really well with Hex. At 9th level hex/HM with hand crossbow and EB is 5d6+3d10+dex using just the attack action. You can also do this with just 1 feat getting EB and Hex through magic initiate, but in this case you will need to use Charisma for the attack roll, while getting it through spell sniper lets you use intelligence.
2. crossbow expert works well with this build. I would not get sharpshooter with this. Although it will work, it is a large investment and if you want a crossbow expert-sharpshooter build I think there are better classes.
because otherwise you will never be able to benefit from the level 6 extra attack of the Bladesinger (it removes the loading property which allows multiple attacks per turn).
You can use a cantrip for the 2nd attack, which at 6th level will do more damage than the crossbow.
because otherwise you will never be able to benefit from the level 6 extra attack of the Bladesinger (it removes the loading property which allows multiple attacks per turn).
You can use a cantrip for the 2nd attack, which at 6th level will do more damage than the crossbow.
I believe at the time I made that post - that was not the case.
I don't see much point in this build. A bladesinger is a wizard that can get into melee. If you are going to attack from a distance, you already have your magic which is more effective. As said, if you use a bow, your bladesinging is over. You can use a hand crossbow with your bladesinging. But then again, you're going to be more effective using your magic. So what for?
A short bow/longbow/light crossbow/heavy crossbow wouldn’t be an issue if you find yourself out of bladesongs and low on spells.
level 6+ you could make use of one of the weapons above for a single attack and then cast till the dead/firebolt for the other attack.
as people have pointed out the hand crossbow could be an option, but the sling could be useful too. Perhaps make use of with and the crusher feat to push a target into one of your ongoing spell effects?
This was forever ago but everyone has the wrong idea about an archer bldesinger, and what is the best way to build one
first off, having a 16 in both dex and int is a huge waist. it means both your spells and your ranged attacks are going to suck unless you put full ASIs into both, which means no feats. No crossbow expert, no sharpshooter.
the REAL best way to build this class is to take Mold Earth and Minor Illusion, focus on spells that don’t use your modifier (wizard has tons) and use buffs to outpace your fellow weapon users.
Firstly, you’ll want to grab Find Familiar at 1st level. The advantage granted safely by the Owl familiar (60ft flying speed + flyby = easy full cover every turn) is going to make up for your lack of damage. Since you don’t have Archery like a fighter, sneak attack like a rogue, or favored enemy like a ranger, your damage without advantage is pretty bad. At 2nd you get bladesinging, but honestly it’s not worth it. You’re much better off just being happy with the light armor (the -1 AC compared to Mage Armor is well worth the infinite duration and saved spell slot) and the ability to get extra speed and AC whenever you are stuck in melee. I would inly bladesong when you are forced into melee, as a last resort. 3rd gets you 2nd level spells which aren’t very useful on a low int, high dex build. Magic Weapon is probably the most important grab here. at 4th you grab Sharpshooter, and now the advantage from your familiar is even more powerful. At this point your damage is somewhat comparable to a rogue’s but you have the Shield spell instead of expertise and cunning action. Worth it? who knows lol. At 5th you do fall behind a bit, as your allies get extra attack and you don’t. You get third level spells and the most important grabs here are easily haste and fly. Haste is an amazing spell for you, granting lots of benefits that make your ranged archery extremely potent. Enemies will have a really difficult time approaching the 60 foot movement speed character, and at this point your standing AC should be 15, which haste will boost to 17, and then shield to 22. At 6th level you go kinda nuts. Now you get your special extra attack and everything comes together. On your turn you can cast Minor Illusion to make an illusion of something static which would hide yourself but allow arrows to pass through (like a wall of leaves) since you cast the spell, the illusion is transparent to you, but it blocks sight for other creatures who haven’t investigated it or interacted with it physically. As part of that same action, you can make an attack with advantage (since you are an unseen attacker) and then on the following turn you can use Haste and make one more attack (using the hasted action)
after all is said and done, you’ll be making 3 sharpshooter attacks, all with advantage, with a standing AC of 17 and a potential shielded AC of 22, and enemies always have disadvantage to hit you. If an enemy gets close enough to discern the illusion, use your hasted speed to sprint in the opposite direction. Hell, you probably have enough speed to climb a moderately sized object to get a good vantage point without dashing. If you ARE pinned down in melee, you can whip out your rapier and start going to town on the enemy with booming blade instead. This does a lot less damage, but with 3 potential attacks it is still a lot more than some classes are getting, especially with one-handed weapons.
At 8th level you can take Elven Accuracy to boost your dex to 18, and now your attacks get even more accurate. You’ll be easily out-damaging your maritals in fights that last more than 3 rounds
To start with if you start with a 16 in both intelligence and Dexterity you will be good at both using weapons and attacks. If you leave them both at 16 wtih no ASIs you will be good at this all the way until level 20. If you invest ASIs in either you will go from good to great in that role respectively.
For a Bladesinger Archer crossbow expert might be of value to get the bonus action attack, but I don't think sharpshooter is worth it since at high levels your Cantrips will do more damage than your attacks.
In most games an Owl familiar is typically good for 1 or 2 attacks before it is killed if you try to use it every turn. Sometimes more than that, but not usually much more. It is worth it if you have a lot of money for spamming Find Familiar as a ritual on a short rest, but it is not like it will give you advantage every attack. Personally I prefer a bat for the blindsight. I don't often use "help" with it though.
I would consider boosting it by getting Hex through the Fey touched Feat and the Peircer feat instead of Sharpshooter. With Piercer and Fey Touched being Half feats you can boost your dex and intelligence with them. I would take one of these before Elven Accuracy, then pick up Elven Accuracy at 8th level when you pick up greater invisibility and that is where I would get reliable advantage from.
all of this is completely wrong. If you have a 16 in whatever you’re using for saves/attacks by level 20, you’re essentially doing everything with a permanent -2 compared to your allies. you’re not ‘good at 2 things’ you just suck at everything. It’s almost as bad as having disadvantage on all attacks and giving enemies advantage on all of your saving throws.
secondly, sharpshooter is completely insane and totally necessary for getting good damage out of bows. your cantrips do *not* do more damage than your attacks at ANY level because bladesinger has ways of generating advantage. 1d8+15 is about as much as even 4d10 (the maximum scaling on the wizard’s best cantrip) except the 1d8+15 can apply to two different attacks all the way from level 6, whereas 4d10 firebolt only comes online at 17th level and you only ever get the one.
the owl familiar is good for lots of attacks if you know how to use it, and the combination of it’s good flying speed and flyby means that in some fights it can be nigh invulnerable. Consider this: the owl flies in from the branches of a tree 30 feet away, uses the help action, and then flies back behind the tree. What is the enemy going to do? Even with a ranged weapon, getting a clear shot on the owl would mean climbing the tree and getting into the branches themselves, or using their action to hold an attack in wait for the owl. If they do that, then congratulations on basically stunning the enemy and you can just let your owl sit behind the tree for a turn while the enemy stands there doing nothing. Besides, you only need the owl in combat until 6th, at which point you generate advantage all by yourself.
piercer and hex both suck for this, i don’t even know why you’d consider them. Hex is 1d6 per attack, of which you get two, so it’s about 7 damage if both attacks hit. Shaprhsooter applies about 50% more damage than that *per attack* and when you pair it with Elven Accuracy it’s not even comparable. Piercer, meanwhile, increases your damage per d8 from 4.5 on average to 5.5. A one damage increase lmao. Not worth it at all. An if you start off with a +2/+1 race (which is all of them except for mountain dwarf) you can only start with one 17, meaning one of these half feats is essentially a waste until 12th level. Starting with 17 in dex and going to 18 and getting sharpshooter alongside it gives you such a ridiculous damage boost over going 18 dex and 17 inteligence with hex that it’s not even funny.
ALSO HEX USES YOUR CONCENTRATION. Why would you ever concentrate on hex when Haste is RIGHT THERE giving you +2 AC, a 60 foot movement speed, and an additional attack.
all of this is completely wrong. If you have a 16 in whatever you’re using for saves/attacks by level 20, you’re essentially doing everything with a permanent -2 compared to your allies. you’re not ‘good at 2 things’ you just suck at everything. It’s almost as bad as having disadvantage on all attacks and giving enemies advantage on all of your saving throws.
Only if those allies have a 20 in the stat and only if you haven't got any magic to close that gap and even in that case it is still only 2 less. That is far from being bad. Bad is doing it with a 13.
it is not even close to disadvantage. The average CR20 enemy has an AC of 20, meaning at 20th level you need on average an 11 to hit with no magic at all. You hit 50% of the time. Someone with a 20 in Dex needs a 9, hitting 60% of the time. With disadvantage someone with a 20 would hit 36% of the time, far worse than the 50%.
secondly, sharpshooter is completely insane and totally necessary for getting good damage out of bows.
Not necessary at all.
Again at 20th level fighting an AC 20 enemy with a 20 Dex, using the +5/-10 a Longbow will average 7.05 damage per attack.
The same character using a longbow and not using sharpshooter will average 5.925 damage per attack.
The same character using a longbow and peircer will average 6.7 damage per attack (assuming 2 attacks a turn and rerolling the first roll less than a 5).
That is not a fair comparison though because to get sharpshooter you give up a full ASI compared to the second example and a half an ASI compared to the third
Getting extra damage dice from something like Hex or Favored foe will reduce the difference, geetting advantage will increase the difference.
your cantrips do *not* do more damage than your attacks at ANY level because bladesinger has ways of generating advantage.
Advantage works on cantrips too and the base damage is higher after level 5 and a lot higher by level 20.
Again using level 20 with a 20 Dexterity and a 16 Intelligence comparing:
2 attacks with a longbow and sharpshoote and advatage: 22.9725 damage on average.
1 attack with a longbow (20 Dex) and no sharpshooter plus an attack using Firebolt (16 intelligence), advantage on both attacks: 25.7423
Note this is with a 16 intelligence, heavily biasing this towards using the longbow instead of cantrips
1d8+15 is about as much as even 4d10 (the maximum scaling on the wizard’s best cantrip) except the 1d8+15 can apply to two different attacks all the way from level 6, whereas 4d10 firebolt only comes online at 17th level and you only ever get the one.
Yes but it hits a lot less AND crits for a lot less. The numbers above are the real numbers and that is with only a 16 intelligence.
the owl familiar is good for lots of attacks if you know how to use it, and the combination of it’s good flying speed and flyby means that in some fights it can be nigh invulnerable.
It is not invulnerable at all. It is EXTREMELY VULNERABLE. If you help and flyby every turn you will average no more than 25 feet away from a stationary enemy. Your owl also has an AC of 11 and 1 hit point. Any enemy can simply thow something at it and kill it most of the time. Even in a best case scenario, we are in the open where the owl can climb straight up AND the enemy has no ranged attacks AND the enemy can't fly AND the enemy is in melee so he has disadvantage on ranged attacks. Even in that case, the average enemy with a 16 strength throwing an improvised weapon with no proficiency bonus at your owl is going to hit and kill him over a third of the time.
That is the best case for using an owl. Put yourself underwater, against an enemy with an AOE, againt an enemy with ranged weapons, agaisnt an enemy with a fly speed or in a building with a low ceiling and difficult terrain and it only gets worse.
Yes it is valuable, it is worth doing if you do not care about your familiar dieing, but your familiar will never last 3 rounds doing this every turn unless your DM plays on easy mode.
consider this comparison - a CR 1/4 Goblin have an AC 4 points higher than an Owl, 7 times as many hit points as an owl and a bonus action disengage. If you have a bad guy Archer with a Goblin Henchman, how long do you think that Goblin henchmen would last running in and using help every turn at 15th level against the party? That Goblin is MUCH more durable than an owl!
Consider this: the owl flies in from the branches of a tree 30 feet away, uses the help action, and then flies back behind the tree. What is the enemy going to do?
If he is not behind full cover throw a rock at him and kill him. If he is behind full cover walk until he isn't behind full cover and then kill him. It is extremely simple and doable far more often than it is not doable.
Now consider this, what if there is not a tree with 30 feet or if the enemy has a fear ability or if the enemy has fireball or if the enemy has ranged weapons.
Like I said a Goblin can do this a lot better and Goblins are routinely slaughtered by 2nd level characters.
Even with a ranged weapon, getting a clear shot on the owl would mean climbing the tree and getting into the branches themselves, or using their action to hold an attack in wait for the owl.
Why does he need a "clear" shot? Even if the Owl has 3/4 cover he would be hit with a ranged weapon he is proficient in most of the time .... oh and by the way if the ENEMY has sharpshooter he ignores that cover!
This is aside from the fact there must be a tree to do this and enemies can climb trees.
Finally if all else fails. There is a tree there, the enemy can't climb the tree, has no ranged weapons, has no AOEs, and the tree provides full cover. If all of those things are in your favor, I can still ready an action to attack the Owl and the Owl WILL die when I do that.
If they do that, then congratulations on basically stunning the enemy and you can just let your owl sit behind the tree for a turn while the enemy stands there doing nothing.
If the Owl sits behind the tree he is not helping, which is what you said he was going to do. How do you know what the enemy is planning to do? You have to make a choice, fly the Owl out of this tree that provides full cover or not.
I will agree though, if your Owl hangs back and does nothing he will probably survive, but you won't get advantage.
Besides, you only need the owl in combat until 6th, at which point you generate advantage all by yourself.
How do you do that?
piercer and hex both suck for this, i don’t even know why you’d consider them.
Hex is 1d6 per attack, of which you get two, so it’s about 7 damage if both attacks hit.
Hex is about 2 points of damage per attack, which is pretty close to sharpshooter at most levels.
Hex also gives disadvantage to an enemies abilities which make things like hide work better.
Shaprhsooter applies about 50% more damage than that *per attack*
Actually it is about 20% without advantage. With both Elven accuracy and advantage it is about 60% when you have advantage.
Piercer, meanwhile, increases your damage per d8 from 4.5 on average to 5.5
No average damage on a hit with a 20 dex and a longbow goes from 9.95 without peircer to 11.9 with piercer (you failed to consider crits and rerolling the lowest die)
A one damage increase lmao. Not worth it at all. An if you start off with a +2/+1 race (which is all of them except for mountain dwarf) you can only start with one 17.
Ok a few things here. First Half Elves start with a +2 and two +1s, standard Humans start with 6 +1s, Variant Humans start with two +1s, Custom Races start with one +2 and anumber of lineages can start with 3 +1s.
Second the standard method of generating ability scores in the PHB is to roll 4d6 and drop one 6 times which will rather often give you more than one 17+ after adding your racial bonuses. Personally I have started with a 20 and a 19 before and a 20 and an 18 (after racial bonuses)
Now if you have less than a 16 in your prime stat you will need to use ASIs, but if you can manage a 16 at level 1 you can play all the way to 20 effectively without a single ASI.
, meaning one of these half feats is essentially a waste until 12th level
That depends ENTIRELY on what you rolled and what race you chose.
Starting with 17 in dex and going to 18 and getting sharpshooter alongside it gives you such a ridiculous damage boost over going 18 dex and 17 inteligence with hex that it’s not even funny.
Do the math and show me this "rediculous" boost in real numbers against a real AC.
ALSO HEX USES YOUR CONCENTRATION. Why would you ever concentrate on hex when Haste is RIGHT THERE giving you +2 AC, a 60 foot movement speed, and an additional attack.
Because Hex gives the enemy disadvantage on skill checks, lasts an hour on a 1st level slot, uses a bonus action letting you attack the turn you use it, does 1d6 extra per attack and doesn't immobilize you for a turn when it ends.
With Hex I don't miss an attack casting it and I can go for up to an hour and I can just recast it if I lose concentration, again without losing an attack. With Haste I miss the entire action when I cast it and then lose 2 turns every time concentration drops (1 turn due to Haste ending and 1 turn to recast it). At the very best, for anyone with 2 attacks a turn Haste will give you 1 extra attack in the 3rd round of combat. So in total number of attacks here is how it is (assuming extra attack and 2 attacks a turn):
Compared to hex here is how it plays out. This assumes you NEVER lose concentration early:
1st round: 1 less attack vs 2d6
2nd round: equal number of attacks vs 2d6
3rd round: 1 more attack vs 6d6
4th round: 2 more attacks vs 8d6
5th round: 3 more attacks vs 10d6
6th round: 4 more attacks vs 12d6
7th round: 5 more attacks vs 14d6
8th round: 6 more attacks vs 16d6
9th round: 7 more attacks vs 18d6
10th round: 8 more attacks vs 20d6
11th round: 6 more attacks vs 22d6
12th round: 5 more attacks vs 24d6
This of course assumes you do not lose concentration. Just simple numbers through 12 rounds- Hex is 24d6 potential damage vs 5 more attacks with haste ..... and Hex is a 1st level slot and lasts another 58+ minutes!
Again why don't you do some math comparing Hex vs Haste and show how much better Haste is in real numbers in an average battle (don't forget to include the first round damage for Hex).
This is nothing against Haste, but Haste on a Bladesinger is kind of a Waste unless there is some corner case. If you are going to use that spell, use it on a Rogue allowing him to make 2 sneak attacks a round. Now THAT is a lot better than Hex!
Haste doesn’t entirely waste your first turn if you cast it on yourself. Using your initial action to cast haste, you then still have access to the more limited action that the hast spell itself gives.
haste action to attack, dash, disengage, hide, or use an object.
attacking with the haste action might still activate a bonus action two weapon bonus attack or a hand crossbow attack if the feat is used.
I wouldn’t standardize casting haste on myself as blade singer but it’s something to think about as a potential tool to be used.
the average damage of 2d6 is 7, one attack with Sharpshooter does an average of 18.5 (with a +4 dex). Even getting just one extra attack every turn is a much bigger damage boost, and it comes with insane secondary benefits, and you can use it on the first turn right away for one attack. The actual numbers should look like this:
Round 1: -18.5 damage (one less attack) versus +7 Round 2: 0 damage (the missing attack is made up for on this turn) versus +14 Round 3: +18.5 damage versus +21 Round 4: +37 damage versus +28 Round 5: +55.5 damage versus +35
5 rounds in and haste has not only dealt 20.5 more damage than hex, but probably prevented some damage and allowed you much stronger mobility on top of that. Even just 3 rounds in, it's better all-around because the damage difference (2.5 damage) just can't match the power of +2 AC and doubled speed.
It takes 15 rounds for Hex to break 100 damage, whereas Haste (Again, along with all other benefits) breaks it by 8th (earlier if you have +5 dex) and even after haste ends and literally loses you an entire turn, it STILL stays ahead by a lot. The closest the two get after round 5 is 8.5 on round 12.
Even if you do lose concentration thanks to running out of time or getting hit and dropping it, you have SO MANY USES by 7th level. Hex is okay as a backup if you somehow run out of hastes, but unless you're using your 60 foot movement speed to run directly into the enemy's melee range or ranged enemies are somehow hitting you regularly despite you being able to get +5 AC as a reaction, having an extra 2 AC from haste, and making the enemies attack at disadvantage, then you should be able to keep your concentration pretty much every time.
18 dex 16 int wizard at 12th level (you know, a level people actually PLAY at?) with a +2 longbow (pretty standard for the level) and feats of either of our choices, against an enemy with 17 AC, a base 65% chance to hit with the +2 weapon boosting it to a 75% chance.
your build, including piercer and hex, and throwing in a firebolt: (1d8+6)*0.75+(2d8)*0.05+(3d10)*0.5+(3d10)*0.05 In this equation we can substitute the most impactful of those d8s for 5.5 instead of 4.5, assuming that at least one of them will be below 5. This comes out to 18.15
my build, including sharpshooter (eleven accuracy has not come into play yet, obviously) without using a firebolt: ((1d8+16)*0.5+(1d8)*0.05)*2 we obviously won’t be replacing any die, so all d8s are 4.5 for my builds. this comes out to 20.95
adding hex to your build makes: (1d6+1d8+6)*0.75+(2d8+1d6)*0.05+(1d6+3d10)*0.5+(3d10+1d6)*0.05, coming out to 22.875
adding haste to mine gives us: ((1d8+16)*0.5+(1d8)*0.05)*3, which comes out to 31.424
add advantage to your build: (1d6+1d8+6)*0.94+(2d8+1d6)*0.1+(1d6+3d10)*0.75+(3d10+1d6)*0.1, which comes out to 32.35
and now my build, which includes elven accuracy: ((1d8+16)*0.875+(1d8)*0.14)*3 which comes out to 55.7
as for how to generate advantage, it’s as simple as replacing one attack with Minor Illusion and making something that arrows can pass through but which you can’t see through. Enemies have to physically interact with the illusion or use their action to investigate it to reveal it’s nature, but since you cast it you obviously know that it’s an illusion. This effectively makes you heavily obscured while having full sight of the enemy, with the only caveat being that you can’t move. of course, with the 60 foot movement speed from haste, you won’t have to move very often, and so giving up one attack every once in a while to generate advantage is a MASSIVE boost to your potential DPS, and all it takes is using the bladesinger’s unique extra attack feature. Failing that, a number of things at this level can generate advantage on important enemies from your allies, such as Stunning Strike, a wolf totem barbarian, lots of spells from other spellcasters like Faerie Fire, Psychic Lance, and more, etc. Having random advantage on at least one enemy in your weapon’s range is not a rare occurrence by this level at all.
There’s also spells that can generate advantage for you, and so if your DM decides to nerf you by fiating the Minor Illusion out of the equation, you can still do more damage than casting Hex at this level by casting something like Greater Invisibility. Getting advantage with my build is worth so much more than your build that taking an entire turn just to get it is very much worth it. With advantage, my build has a 72% lead over yours… of course you can’t use GI and Haste at the same time, but even missing a third of that damage would put mine way ahead
I'm looking to play a High elf blade singer.
If possible would use a bow giving space for more utility cantrips and still being able to damage at distance.
Building to lvl 6.
PHB +1(scag).
What would you all suggest for a bit of min maxing so I can hold out in some ready encounters but still be fun to play out of combat.
Any spell options would be welcomed aswell.
Thanks
Assuming standard array, I'd put 10 in strength, 14 in dex, 13 in con, 15 in int, 12 in wisdom, 8 in charisma. With high elf the dex and int would be 16. Point buy, I'd find a way to nudge the con to 14, rolling I'd put the priorities in the same spots remembering even is what helps so I'd put odd stats in my +1(in), and even in my +2(dex) if they are close. 4th level I'd bump int. Skills from background I'd take stealth, athletics,(sneaking around and getting into a good position are nice for archers) arcana, investigation 2 best class skills IMO.
Prestidigitation, mending, mage hand 3 solid utility cantrips. What spells you want to take are kind of dependent on your style and where the campaign takes you. I almost always play those by ear and see what we need. I generally like to start with a couple rituals to benefit from the wizards ritual caster ability.
Rules as written say using a weapon with 2-hands ends your bladesinging, which does count a bow as 2 handed. Which is fine as long as you save the bladesinging for getting into melee and switching to a 1 handed weapon.
Hand crossbows on the other hand have ranged and are 1 handed to fire, and the crossbow master feat lets you fire as a bonus action. Dark elves get free proficiency in hand crossbows.
Shape water, mold earth, presdigitation and minor illusion are great spells if you are creative. Mage hand, friends, and light are good all around spells.
Yea you absolutely cannot use a bow with Bladesong - it ends immediately if you attack with two hands. So your only option is a Hand Crossbow for physical ranged attacks. The Crossbow Expert Feat will be required because otherwise you will never be able to benefit from the level 6 extra attack of the Bladesinger (it removes the loading property which allows multiple attacks per turn).
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
Thanks I thought that might be the case oh well
Yeah it wont work as a archer, but you still get 2 attacks. Use the bow when at range when you are less likely to be attacked anyways, switch to blade singer if either you or they close.
Crossbow expert and Warcaster are useful feats for bladesingers who like to fight at mid-range to close-rang. As a bladesinger your have to keep in mind that you rarely if ever want to attack with two-handed weapons like bows. They are almost not worth keeping around because it will rarely be optimal for you to use such weapons. But if you have a bag of holding why not keep that option available?!
You could get something of the flavor of what you are looking for with a College of Valor Bard, as they are full casters and get proficiencies in martial weapons (including Longbow) as well as medium armor and shield proficiencies and Extra Attack at 6th level. You could also choose to play a race with Longbow proficiency and go College of Swords, although many of the sub class features don't work well for ranged attacks. Of course Bards aren't the damage dealer that Wizards are, but they have a lot of other things going for them.
A bow will not work that well on a bladesinger, you are better off with a hand crossbow. If your DM allows it, I would consider trading your longsword or bow proficiency for a hand crossbow. If not consider a Drow instead.
In any case, this is certainly a viable build. Since you are ranged I don't think most of the normal spell selections on a bladesinger are relevant for your intended build. Most of the time on a bladesinger you want to invest heavily in defensive and mobility spells (shield, absorb elements, protection from good and evil, blur, mirror image, haste .....). If you are not going to be in melee though these are less important and you can pretty much build any wizard you want. With bladesong you are going to be really well defended for a blaster or control wizard.
Things I would consider:
Since you want to be ranged take a good ranged cantrip (I like Chill Touch but firebolt and Toll the Dead are good too). Also get shocking grasp which will allow you to disengage without using a spell slot if you accidentally get caught up in melee.
Feats to consider:
1. You can start with a 17 intelligence and pick up Eldritch Blast through spell sniper and then get Hex or Hunters Mark through Fey touched while also boosting your Intelligence. The thing about Eldritch blast is it increases your actual number of rays not the damage like other cantrips, so it scales really well with Hex. At 9th level hex/HM with hand crossbow and EB is 5d6+3d10+dex using just the attack action. You can also do this with just 1 feat getting EB and Hex through magic initiate, but in this case you will need to use Charisma for the attack roll, while getting it through spell sniper lets you use intelligence.
2. crossbow expert works well with this build. I would not get sharpshooter with this. Although it will work, it is a large investment and if you want a crossbow expert-sharpshooter build I think there are better classes.
You can use a cantrip for the 2nd attack, which at 6th level will do more damage than the crossbow.
I believe at the time I made that post - that was not the case.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
I don't see much point in this build. A bladesinger is a wizard that can get into melee. If you are going to attack from a distance, you already have your magic which is more effective.
As said, if you use a bow, your bladesinging is over. You can use a hand crossbow with your bladesinging. But then again, you're going to be more effective using your magic. So what for?
A short bow/longbow/light crossbow/heavy crossbow wouldn’t be an issue if you find yourself out of bladesongs and low on spells.
level 6+ you could make use of one of the weapons above for a single attack and then cast till the dead/firebolt for the other attack.
as people have pointed out the hand crossbow could be an option, but the sling could be useful too. Perhaps make use of with and the crusher feat to push a target into one of your ongoing spell effects?
This was forever ago but everyone has the wrong idea about an archer bldesinger, and what is the best way to build one
first off, having a 16 in both dex and int is a huge waist. it means both your spells and your ranged attacks are going to suck unless you put full ASIs into both, which means no feats. No crossbow expert, no sharpshooter.
the REAL best way to build this class is to take Mold Earth and Minor Illusion, focus on spells that don’t use your modifier (wizard has tons) and use buffs to outpace your fellow weapon users.
Firstly, you’ll want to grab Find Familiar at 1st level. The advantage granted safely by the Owl familiar (60ft flying speed + flyby = easy full cover every turn) is going to make up for your lack of damage. Since you don’t have Archery like a fighter, sneak attack like a rogue, or favored enemy like a ranger, your damage without advantage is pretty bad. At 2nd you get bladesinging, but honestly it’s not worth it. You’re much better off just being happy with the light armor (the -1 AC compared to Mage Armor is well worth the infinite duration and saved spell slot) and the ability to get extra speed and AC whenever you are stuck in melee. I would inly bladesong when you are forced into melee, as a last resort. 3rd gets you 2nd level spells which aren’t very useful on a low int, high dex build. Magic Weapon is probably the most important grab here. at 4th you grab Sharpshooter, and now the advantage from your familiar is even more powerful. At this point your damage is somewhat comparable to a rogue’s but you have the Shield spell instead of expertise and cunning action. Worth it? who knows lol. At 5th you do fall behind a bit, as your allies get extra attack and you don’t. You get third level spells and the most important grabs here are easily haste and fly. Haste is an amazing spell for you, granting lots of benefits that make your ranged archery extremely potent. Enemies will have a really difficult time approaching the 60 foot movement speed character, and at this point your standing AC should be 15, which haste will boost to 17, and then shield to 22. At 6th level you go kinda nuts. Now you get your special extra attack and everything comes together. On your turn you can cast Minor Illusion to make an illusion of something static which would hide yourself but allow arrows to pass through (like a wall of leaves) since you cast the spell, the illusion is transparent to you, but it blocks sight for other creatures who haven’t investigated it or interacted with it physically. As part of that same action, you can make an attack with advantage (since you are an unseen attacker) and then on the following turn you can use Haste and make one more attack (using the hasted action)
after all is said and done, you’ll be making 3 sharpshooter attacks, all with advantage, with a standing AC of 17 and a potential shielded AC of 22, and enemies always have disadvantage to hit you. If an enemy gets close enough to discern the illusion, use your hasted speed to sprint in the opposite direction. Hell, you probably have enough speed to climb a moderately sized object to get a good vantage point without dashing. If you ARE pinned down in melee, you can whip out your rapier and start going to town on the enemy with booming blade instead. This does a lot less damage, but with 3 potential attacks it is still a lot more than some classes are getting, especially with one-handed weapons.
At 8th level you can take Elven Accuracy to boost your dex to 18, and now your attacks get even more accurate. You’ll be easily out-damaging your maritals in fights that last more than 3 rounds
I would disagree with a lot of this.
To start with if you start with a 16 in both intelligence and Dexterity you will be good at both using weapons and attacks. If you leave them both at 16 wtih no ASIs you will be good at this all the way until level 20. If you invest ASIs in either you will go from good to great in that role respectively.
For a Bladesinger Archer crossbow expert might be of value to get the bonus action attack, but I don't think sharpshooter is worth it since at high levels your Cantrips will do more damage than your attacks.
In most games an Owl familiar is typically good for 1 or 2 attacks before it is killed if you try to use it every turn. Sometimes more than that, but not usually much more. It is worth it if you have a lot of money for spamming Find Familiar as a ritual on a short rest, but it is not like it will give you advantage every attack. Personally I prefer a bat for the blindsight. I don't often use "help" with it though.
I would consider boosting it by getting Hex through the Fey touched Feat and the Peircer feat instead of Sharpshooter. With Piercer and Fey Touched being Half feats you can boost your dex and intelligence with them. I would take one of these before Elven Accuracy, then pick up Elven Accuracy at 8th level when you pick up greater invisibility and that is where I would get reliable advantage from.
all of this is completely wrong. If you have a 16 in whatever you’re using for saves/attacks by level 20, you’re essentially doing everything with a permanent -2 compared to your allies. you’re not ‘good at 2 things’ you just suck at everything. It’s almost as bad as having disadvantage on all attacks and giving enemies advantage on all of your saving throws.
secondly, sharpshooter is completely insane and totally necessary for getting good damage out of bows. your cantrips do *not* do more damage than your attacks at ANY level because bladesinger has ways of generating advantage. 1d8+15 is about as much as even 4d10 (the maximum scaling on the wizard’s best cantrip) except the 1d8+15 can apply to two different attacks all the way from level 6, whereas 4d10 firebolt only comes online at 17th level and you only ever get the one.
the owl familiar is good for lots of attacks if you know how to use it, and the combination of it’s good flying speed and flyby means that in some fights it can be nigh invulnerable. Consider this: the owl flies in from the branches of a tree 30 feet away, uses the help action, and then flies back behind the tree. What is the enemy going to do? Even with a ranged weapon, getting a clear shot on the owl would mean climbing the tree and getting into the branches themselves, or using their action to hold an attack in wait for the owl. If they do that, then congratulations on basically stunning the enemy and you can just let your owl sit behind the tree for a turn while the enemy stands there doing nothing. Besides, you only need the owl in combat until 6th, at which point you generate advantage all by yourself.
piercer and hex both suck for this, i don’t even know why you’d consider them. Hex is 1d6 per attack, of which you get two, so it’s about 7 damage if both attacks hit. Shaprhsooter applies about 50% more damage than that *per attack* and when you pair it with Elven Accuracy it’s not even comparable. Piercer, meanwhile, increases your damage per d8 from 4.5 on average to 5.5. A one damage increase lmao. Not worth it at all. An if you start off with a +2/+1 race (which is all of them except for mountain dwarf) you can only start with one 17, meaning one of these half feats is essentially a waste until 12th level. Starting with 17 in dex and going to 18 and getting sharpshooter alongside it gives you such a ridiculous damage boost over going 18 dex and 17 inteligence with hex that it’s not even funny.
ALSO HEX USES YOUR CONCENTRATION. Why would you ever concentrate on hex when Haste is RIGHT THERE giving you +2 AC, a 60 foot movement speed, and an additional attack.
Only if those allies have a 20 in the stat and only if you haven't got any magic to close that gap and even in that case it is still only 2 less. That is far from being bad. Bad is doing it with a 13.
it is not even close to disadvantage. The average CR20 enemy has an AC of 20, meaning at 20th level you need on average an 11 to hit with no magic at all. You hit 50% of the time. Someone with a 20 in Dex needs a 9, hitting 60% of the time. With disadvantage someone with a 20 would hit 36% of the time, far worse than the 50%.
Not necessary at all.
Again at 20th level fighting an AC 20 enemy with a 20 Dex, using the +5/-10 a Longbow will average 7.05 damage per attack.
The same character using a longbow and not using sharpshooter will average 5.925 damage per attack.
The same character using a longbow and peircer will average 6.7 damage per attack (assuming 2 attacks a turn and rerolling the first roll less than a 5).
That is not a fair comparison though because to get sharpshooter you give up a full ASI compared to the second example and a half an ASI compared to the third
Getting extra damage dice from something like Hex or Favored foe will reduce the difference, geetting advantage will increase the difference.
Advantage works on cantrips too and the base damage is higher after level 5 and a lot higher by level 20.
Again using level 20 with a 20 Dexterity and a 16 Intelligence comparing:
2 attacks with a longbow and sharpshoote and advatage: 22.9725 damage on average.
1 attack with a longbow (20 Dex) and no sharpshooter plus an attack using Firebolt (16 intelligence), advantage on both attacks: 25.7423
Note this is with a 16 intelligence, heavily biasing this towards using the longbow instead of cantrips
Yes but it hits a lot less AND crits for a lot less. The numbers above are the real numbers and that is with only a 16 intelligence.
It is not invulnerable at all. It is EXTREMELY VULNERABLE. If you help and flyby every turn you will average no more than 25 feet away from a stationary enemy. Your owl also has an AC of 11 and 1 hit point. Any enemy can simply thow something at it and kill it most of the time. Even in a best case scenario, we are in the open where the owl can climb straight up AND the enemy has no ranged attacks AND the enemy can't fly AND the enemy is in melee so he has disadvantage on ranged attacks. Even in that case, the average enemy with a 16 strength throwing an improvised weapon with no proficiency bonus at your owl is going to hit and kill him over a third of the time.
That is the best case for using an owl. Put yourself underwater, against an enemy with an AOE, againt an enemy with ranged weapons, agaisnt an enemy with a fly speed or in a building with a low ceiling and difficult terrain and it only gets worse.
Yes it is valuable, it is worth doing if you do not care about your familiar dieing, but your familiar will never last 3 rounds doing this every turn unless your DM plays on easy mode.
consider this comparison - a CR 1/4 Goblin have an AC 4 points higher than an Owl, 7 times as many hit points as an owl and a bonus action disengage. If you have a bad guy Archer with a Goblin Henchman, how long do you think that Goblin henchmen would last running in and using help every turn at 15th level against the party? That Goblin is MUCH more durable than an owl!
If he is not behind full cover throw a rock at him and kill him. If he is behind full cover walk until he isn't behind full cover and then kill him. It is extremely simple and doable far more often than it is not doable.
Now consider this, what if there is not a tree with 30 feet or if the enemy has a fear ability or if the enemy has fireball or if the enemy has ranged weapons.
Like I said a Goblin can do this a lot better and Goblins are routinely slaughtered by 2nd level characters.
Why does he need a "clear" shot? Even if the Owl has 3/4 cover he would be hit with a ranged weapon he is proficient in most of the time .... oh and by the way if the ENEMY has sharpshooter he ignores that cover!
This is aside from the fact there must be a tree to do this and enemies can climb trees.
Finally if all else fails. There is a tree there, the enemy can't climb the tree, has no ranged weapons, has no AOEs, and the tree provides full cover. If all of those things are in your favor, I can still ready an action to attack the Owl and the Owl WILL die when I do that.
If the Owl sits behind the tree he is not helping, which is what you said he was going to do. How do you know what the enemy is planning to do? You have to make a choice, fly the Owl out of this tree that provides full cover or not.
I will agree though, if your Owl hangs back and does nothing he will probably survive, but you won't get advantage.
How do you do that?
Hex is about 2 points of damage per attack, which is pretty close to sharpshooter at most levels.
Hex also gives disadvantage to an enemies abilities which make things like hide work better.
Actually it is about 20% without advantage. With both Elven accuracy and advantage it is about 60% when you have advantage.
No average damage on a hit with a 20 dex and a longbow goes from 9.95 without peircer to 11.9 with piercer (you failed to consider crits and rerolling the lowest die)
Ok a few things here. First Half Elves start with a +2 and two +1s, standard Humans start with 6 +1s, Variant Humans start with two +1s, Custom Races start with one +2 and anumber of lineages can start with 3 +1s.
Second the standard method of generating ability scores in the PHB is to roll 4d6 and drop one 6 times which will rather often give you more than one 17+ after adding your racial bonuses. Personally I have started with a 20 and a 19 before and a 20 and an 18 (after racial bonuses)
Now if you have less than a 16 in your prime stat you will need to use ASIs, but if you can manage a 16 at level 1 you can play all the way to 20 effectively without a single ASI.
That depends ENTIRELY on what you rolled and what race you chose.
Do the math and show me this "rediculous" boost in real numbers against a real AC.
Because Hex gives the enemy disadvantage on skill checks, lasts an hour on a 1st level slot, uses a bonus action letting you attack the turn you use it, does 1d6 extra per attack and doesn't immobilize you for a turn when it ends.
With Hex I don't miss an attack casting it and I can go for up to an hour and I can just recast it if I lose concentration, again without losing an attack. With Haste I miss the entire action when I cast it and then lose 2 turns every time concentration drops (1 turn due to Haste ending and 1 turn to recast it). At the very best, for anyone with 2 attacks a turn Haste will give you 1 extra attack in the 3rd round of combat. So in total number of attacks here is how it is (assuming extra attack and 2 attacks a turn):
Compared to hex here is how it plays out. This assumes you NEVER lose concentration early:
1st round: 1 less attack vs 2d6
2nd round: equal number of attacks vs 2d6
3rd round: 1 more attack vs 6d6
4th round: 2 more attacks vs 8d6
5th round: 3 more attacks vs 10d6
6th round: 4 more attacks vs 12d6
7th round: 5 more attacks vs 14d6
8th round: 6 more attacks vs 16d6
9th round: 7 more attacks vs 18d6
10th round: 8 more attacks vs 20d6
11th round: 6 more attacks vs 22d6
12th round: 5 more attacks vs 24d6
This of course assumes you do not lose concentration. Just simple numbers through 12 rounds- Hex is 24d6 potential damage vs 5 more attacks with haste ..... and Hex is a 1st level slot and lasts another 58+ minutes!
Again why don't you do some math comparing Hex vs Haste and show how much better Haste is in real numbers in an average battle (don't forget to include the first round damage for Hex).
This is nothing against Haste, but Haste on a Bladesinger is kind of a Waste unless there is some corner case. If you are going to use that spell, use it on a Rogue allowing him to make 2 sneak attacks a round. Now THAT is a lot better than Hex!
Haste doesn’t entirely waste your first turn if you cast it on yourself. Using your initial action to cast haste, you then still have access to the more limited action that the hast spell itself gives.
haste action to attack, dash, disengage, hide, or use an object.
attacking with the haste action might still activate a bonus action two weapon bonus attack or a hand crossbow attack if the feat is used.
I wouldn’t standardize casting haste on myself as blade singer but it’s something to think about as a potential tool to be used.
the average damage of 2d6 is 7, one attack with Sharpshooter does an average of 18.5 (with a +4 dex). Even getting just one extra attack every turn is a much bigger damage boost, and it comes with insane secondary benefits, and you can use it on the first turn right away for one attack. The actual numbers should look like this:
Round 1: -18.5 damage (one less attack) versus +7
Round 2: 0 damage (the missing attack is made up for on this turn) versus +14
Round 3: +18.5 damage versus +21
Round 4: +37 damage versus +28
Round 5: +55.5 damage versus +35
5 rounds in and haste has not only dealt 20.5 more damage than hex, but probably prevented some damage and allowed you much stronger mobility on top of that. Even just 3 rounds in, it's better all-around because the damage difference (2.5 damage) just can't match the power of +2 AC and doubled speed.
Round 6: 74 / 42
Round 7: 92.5 / 49
Round 8: 111 / 56
Round 9: 129.5 / 63
Round 10: 148 / 70
Round 11: 111 / 77
Round 12: 92.5 / 84
Round 13: 111 / 91
Round 14: 129.5 / 98
Round 15: 148 / 105
It takes 15 rounds for Hex to break 100 damage, whereas Haste (Again, along with all other benefits) breaks it by 8th (earlier if you have +5 dex) and even after haste ends and literally loses you an entire turn, it STILL stays ahead by a lot. The closest the two get after round 5 is 8.5 on round 12.
Even if you do lose concentration thanks to running out of time or getting hit and dropping it, you have SO MANY USES by 7th level. Hex is okay as a backup if you somehow run out of hastes, but unless you're using your 60 foot movement speed to run directly into the enemy's melee range or ranged enemies are somehow hitting you regularly despite you being able to get +5 AC as a reaction, having an extra 2 AC from haste, and making the enemies attack at disadvantage, then you should be able to keep your concentration pretty much every time.
also here’s the full attack math:
18 dex 16 int wizard at 12th level (you know, a level people actually PLAY at?) with a +2 longbow (pretty standard for the level) and feats of either of our choices, against an enemy with 17 AC, a base 65% chance to hit with the +2 weapon boosting it to a 75% chance.
your build, including piercer and hex, and throwing in a firebolt: (1d8+6)*0.75+(2d8)*0.05+(3d10)*0.5+(3d10)*0.05 In this equation we can substitute the most impactful of those d8s for 5.5 instead of 4.5, assuming that at least one of them will be below 5. This comes out to 18.15
my build, including sharpshooter (eleven accuracy has not come into play yet, obviously) without using a firebolt: ((1d8+16)*0.5+(1d8)*0.05)*2 we obviously won’t be replacing any die, so all d8s are 4.5 for my builds. this comes out to 20.95
adding hex to your build makes: (1d6+1d8+6)*0.75+(2d8+1d6)*0.05+(1d6+3d10)*0.5+(3d10+1d6)*0.05, coming out to 22.875
adding haste to mine gives us: ((1d8+16)*0.5+(1d8)*0.05)*3, which comes out to 31.424
add advantage to your build: (1d6+1d8+6)*0.94+(2d8+1d6)*0.1+(1d6+3d10)*0.75+(3d10+1d6)*0.1, which comes out to 32.35
and now my build, which includes elven accuracy: ((1d8+16)*0.875+(1d8)*0.14)*3 which comes out to 55.7
as for how to generate advantage, it’s as simple as replacing one attack with Minor Illusion and making something that arrows can pass through but which you can’t see through. Enemies have to physically interact with the illusion or use their action to investigate it to reveal it’s nature, but since you cast it you obviously know that it’s an illusion. This effectively makes you heavily obscured while having full sight of the enemy, with the only caveat being that you can’t move. of course, with the 60 foot movement speed from haste, you won’t have to move very often, and so giving up one attack every once in a while to generate advantage is a MASSIVE boost to your potential DPS, and all it takes is using the bladesinger’s unique extra attack feature. Failing that, a number of things at this level can generate advantage on important enemies from your allies, such as Stunning Strike, a wolf totem barbarian, lots of spells from other spellcasters like Faerie Fire, Psychic Lance, and more, etc. Having random advantage on at least one enemy in your weapon’s range is not a rare occurrence by this level at all.
There’s also spells that can generate advantage for you, and so if your DM decides to nerf you by fiating the Minor Illusion out of the equation, you can still do more damage than casting Hex at this level by casting something like Greater Invisibility. Getting advantage with my build is worth so much more than your build that taking an entire turn just to get it is very much worth it. With advantage, my build has a 72% lead over yours… of course you can’t use GI and Haste at the same time, but even missing a third of that damage would put mine way ahead