It's going to be years. Plural. At minimum. Before they get their own VTT.
There are alternatives like Fantasy Grounds or Foundry if you don't like Roll20.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
It's going to be years. Plural. At minimum. Before they get their own VTT.
There are alternatives like Fantasy Grounds or Foundry if you don't like Roll20.
Do you have any links or direct quotes from devs to back up that claim that it will be years "Plural" before they are done with their VTT?
The Dev Updates give indications where in the process they are. Beyond that I rely on my 25 years of experience and observations on the speed at which D&D Beyond has completed their projects from first announcement to finish.
Their general features project, which includes things like the disciple of life bonus, epic boons, container management and similar has been on the works for many months (the disciple of life bonus in particular was first announced as being looked into over 2 years ago) and they've only gotten to the disciple of life bonus so far. The Mythic Odysseys of Theros book featured a Piety system and they're still working to implement this feature customers have paid for - and it was released July last year.
These are relatively easy features to implement that have taken several months to 2 years and little has been completed. A VTT is extremely more difficult to make. It's like comparing riding a tricycle to piloting a rocket ship. Bearing in mind to get the features we currently have working for that VTT properly, is going to require a complete overhaul of almost everything. They have laid ground work with tools like the dice roller, encounter builder and combat tracker but these aren't complete enough to be usable in VTT scenarios.
They are slow even during quiet periods but are slowed further when you consider they are contractually obligated to work on new WotC and UA content as they're released at top priority. They also have to work towards all the other bug fixes and homebrew tool improvements the paying customers are screaming at them for (and in some cases, have been for 3+years).
So yes. Based on observation, experience, years worth of mod posts and dev updates: it will be years before we see them make their own VTT. Even if they "buy" a VTT instead, it'll still take a dedicated team about a year to make it work with what they have so far. It's not like they just hash out a few lines of code - it's a lot more complicated than that.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
It's going to be years. Plural. At minimum. Before they get their own VTT.
There are alternatives like Fantasy Grounds or Foundry if you don't like Roll20.
Do you have any links or direct quotes from devs to back up that claim that it will be years "Plural" before they are done with their VTT?
The Dev Updates give indications where in the process they are. Beyond that I rely on my 25 years of experience and observations on the speed at which D&D Beyond has completed their projects from first announcement to finish.
Their general features project, which includes things like the disciple of life bonus, epic boons, container management and similar has been on the works for many months (the disciple of life bonus in particular was first announced as being looked into over 2 years ago) and they've only gotten to the disciple of life bonus so far. The Mythic Odysseys of Theros book featured a Piety system and they're still working to implement this feature customers have paid for - and it was released July last year.
These are relatively easy features to implement that have taken several months to 2 years and little has been completed. A VTT is extremely more difficult to make. It's like comparing riding a tricycle to piloting a rocket ship. Bearing in mind to get the features we currently have working for that VTT properly, is going to require a complete overhaul of almost everything. They have laid ground work with tools like the dice roller, encounter builder and combat tracker but these aren't complete enough to be usable in VTT scenarios.
They are slow even during quiet periods but are slowed further when you consider they are contractually obligated to work on new WotC and UA content as they're released at top priority. They also have to work towards all the other bug fixes and homebrew tool improvements the paying customers are screaming at them for (and in some cases, have been for 3+years).
So yes. Based on observation, experience, years worth of mod posts and dev updates: it will be years before we see them make their own VTT. Even if they "buy" a VTT instead, it'll still take a dedicated team about a year to make it work with what they have so far. It's not like they just hash out a few lines of code - it's a lot more complicated than that.
TLDR you have no posts from the Devs or links stating it will be "years" to confirm your claim.
I'm not inclined to collate years worth of staff posts and dev updates for you. There is a Forum Search and links in the menu to the Dev Updates.
They haven't actually started the VTT yet, beyond the dice roller and the combat tracker and encounter builder which are still in alpha and beta testing stages.
By that fact alone - which you can prove by actually checking the dev updates yourself from the link in the main menu - it is going to be years.
If you prefer living with the expectation of this coming soon, on your head be it. Sorry for trying to save you from that.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
I'm not inclined to collate years worth of staff posts and dev updates for you. There is a Forum Search and links in the menu to the Dev Updates.
They haven't actually started the VTT yet, beyond the dice roller and the combat tracker and encounter builder which are still in alpha and beta testing stages.
By that fact alone - which you can prove by actually checking the dev updates yourself from the link in the main menu - it is going to be years.
If you prefer living with the expectation of this coming soon, on your head be it. Sorry for trying to save you from that.
So they have not started their VTT yet with the exception of the 3 most important parts of any VTT aka the dice roller, combat tracker, and encounter builder.
A VTT is more than these things. These are made as separate, standalone, tools. They could be a groundwork on a future VTT or could be left standalone.
A Virtual Tabletop is a space designed to provide a visual representation of gameplay such as the use of maps, icons, avatars and so on with controls to move and arrange these. Moreover a VTT needs to connect these visual representations to sheets where character stats can be tracked. This is what Roll20 does. For ease of use VTTs often include what they can for automation. Most usually has some way to roll dice or play cards. They often have chat features, or ways to communicate and share information.
D&D Beyond doesn't have this. It has some elements like the character sheet and virtual dice, but this is a far cry from a VTT and there has not yet been any real commitment towards such a thing. These piecemeal tools are made in a standalone version due to the demands but this all they have and would actually have to be reworked from scratch to be compatible with typical VTT coding architecture (well, most of it, the dice roller engine itself would be a simpler import but the data feed and environment would be changed). Even after these were completed the VTT was on the "long term" development idea list on their public trello board "roadmap". They have since removed the VTT. More recently, they shut down the roadmap and removed all public access, and so we're now in the dark if they'll ever put VTT back on their distant future plans.
I believe Adam (the founder) mentioned in one of the dev updates over a year ago that a VTT was a very distant idea they were interested in and were unsure what form it would actually be as they didn't want to do what the plenty of other VTTs already do and there current system would not support such - everything would have to be redone. Which can be understandable - rewriting 3+ years of a system so it can work in a new VTT structure is a massive undertaking. He has since left the company.
A VTT isn't just somebody hashing a few lines of code. A proper, robust, VTT would take a very large amount of code - more than has ever been made for this site's history combined) which also has to be thoroughly tested to ensure everything works together which, it wont first time (never does) - then rewriting code based on those tests and testing it all again. Repeat until near-insane (testing the systems properly takes far longer than the actual coding, and no matter how much testing you do something always breaks when you open to public stages like alpha or beta phases). When finally happy - you get to go back and add more to make it user-friendly and nice on the eyes. And then you've got to recheck all those security holes. Oh and of course once you know it's working and secure, now you see how you can streamline it - because VTTs are resource-drain nightmares. This site has over 4 million users, with several hundred thousand active at any one time. So that is a massive buttload of resource drain - which could cause lag or even crash the system. That's actually the basis of a Denial of Service "hack" attack (even though it's technically not hacking, but whatevs): you exploit vulnerable code or use a botnet to make millions of database calls until the server gives in from strain and just nopes out. A server crashing down can also risk data corruption and loss if your backup systems aren't up to snuff. So when you make a resource-heavy VTT you need to be darn sure you're managing those calls, bandwidth and memory caches really effectively. And that's a pain in the arse, to be frank.
So yeah, it takes a long time, they haven't made a proper start beyond a few basic standalone bits that took between a few months to 2 years depending on which one, and they have a lot of other things they have to focus on first. Now add that they removed VTT from their list of long term future plans, then removed all public access to the roadmap and that the person who added it on has now left the company --- it doesn't seem like it will be soon, now does it?
So:
- They haven't started on the actual VTT yet, just some standalone common tools. No statement or commitment to starting a VTT has ever been made.
- VTT was removed from the roadmap months before the roadmap itself got taken down.
- It is a massive project that would take years to make due to having to rewrite 3+ years of work on the current system in order to get it to function.
... Yeah, it's gonna be years.
I say this because I thought it was better to manage your expectation. Rather than sticking with a VTT you don't like as you wait for D&D Beyond's, which may never arrive or would be years at least, you could then instead take a look at other currently existing VTTs which better suit your needs, like Fantasy Grounds, Foundry, Astral, Talespire, and more. Personally, Roll20 is fine for me. I just use D&D beyond for character sheet tracking and use Beyond20 extension to roll from my D&DB sheet directly into Roll20. All the pros of a VTT with all the benefits of the D&D Beyond character sheet.
But if you prefer to just stick with the waiting and Roll20 and think I'm lying to you - well, your prerogative. All the best, there, mate. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
A VTT is more than these things. These are made as separate, standalone, tools. They could be a groundwork on a future VTT or could be left standalone.
A Virtual Tabletop is a space designed to provide a visual representation of gameplay such as the use of maps, icons, avatars and so on with controls to move and arrange these. Moreover a VTT needs to connect these visual representations to sheets where character stats can be tracked. This is what Roll20 does. For ease of use VTTs often include what they can for automation. Most usually has some way to roll dice or play cards. They often have chat features, or ways to communicate and share information.
D&D Beyond doesn't have this. It has some elements like the character sheet and virtual dice, but this is a far cry from a VTT and there has not yet been any real commitment towards such a thing. These piecemeal tools are made in a standalone version due to the demands but this all they have and would actually have to be reworked from scratch to be compatible with typical VTT coding architecture (well, most of it, the dice roller engine itself would be a simpler import but the data feed and environment would be changed). Even after these were completed the VTT was on the "long term" development idea list on their public trello board "roadmap". They have since removed the VTT. More recently, they shut down the roadmap and removed all public access, and so we're now in the dark if they'll ever put VTT back on their distant future plans.
I believe Adam (the founder) mentioned in one of the dev updates over a year ago that a VTT was a very distant idea they were interested in and were unsure what form it would actually be as they didn't want to do what the plenty of other VTTs already do and there current system would not support such - everything would have to be redone. Which can be understandable - rewriting 3+ years of a system so it can work in a new VTT structure is a massive undertaking. He has since left the company.
A VTT isn't just somebody hashing a few lines of code. A proper, robust, VTT would take a very large amount of code - more than has ever been made for this site's history combined) which also has to be thoroughly tested to ensure everything works together which, it wont first time (never does) - then rewriting code based on those tests and testing it all again. Repeat until near-insane (testing the systems properly takes far longer than the actual coding, and no matter how much testing you do something always breaks when you open to public stages like alpha or beta phases). When finally happy - you get to go back and add more to make it user-friendly and nice on the eyes. And then you've got to recheck all those security holes. Oh and of course once you know it's working and secure, now you see how you can streamline it - because VTTs are resource-drain nightmares. This site has over 4 million users, with several hundred thousand active at any one time. So that is a massive buttload of resource drain - which could cause lag or even crash the system. That's actually the basis of a Denial of Service "hack" attack (even though it's technically not hacking, but whatevs): you exploit vulnerable code or use a botnet to make millions of database calls until the server gives in from strain and just nopes out. A server crashing down can also risk data corruption and loss if your backup systems aren't up to snuff. So when you make a resource-heavy VTT you need to be darn sure you're managing those calls, bandwidth and memory caches really effectively. And that's a pain in the arse, to be frank.
So yeah, it takes a long time, they haven't made a proper start beyond a few basic standalone bits that took between a few months to 2 years depending on which one, and they have a lot of other things they have to focus on first. Now add that they removed VTT from their list of long term future plans, then removed all public access to the roadmap and that the person who added it on has now left the company --- it doesn't seem like it will be soon, now does it?
So:
- They haven't started on the actual VTT yet, just some standalone common tools. No statement or commitment to starting a VTT has ever been made.
- VTT was removed from the roadmap months before the roadmap itself got taken down.
- It is a massive project that would take years to make due to having to rewrite 3+ years of work on the current system in order to get it to function.
... Yeah, it's gonna be years.
I say this because I thought it was better to manage your expectation. Rather than sticking with a VTT you don't like as you wait for D&D Beyond's, which may never arrive or would be years at least, you could then instead take a look at other currently existing VTTs which better suit your needs, like Fantasy Grounds, Foundry, Astral, Talespire, and more. Personally, Roll20 is fine for me. I just use D&D beyond for character sheet tracking and use Beyond20 extension to roll from my D&DB sheet directly into Roll20. All the pros of a VTT with all the benefits of the D&D Beyond character sheet.
But if you prefer to just stick with the waiting and Roll20 and think I'm lying to you - well, your prerogative. All the best, there, mate. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Just FYI, coming from a software engineer, the vast majority of what you wrote is not accurate when it comes to how a VTT works or the implementation of code for a virtual table.
I'm not going to pick apart your entire post but my other software engineers here in my office had a pretty good laugh at your lack of knowledge and the assumption that you're talking to somebody who is not experienced in the field, or based on your original replay of, I've been playing DND for 25 years. "Rookie numbers BTW", or is new to the hobby or online RPGs. Oh and if you think time spent is for some reason a level of authority when it comes to a subject, I've been playing Dungeons and Dragons since 1982 on and off, but really dug in and played weekly since late 84 early 85.
Also, just to throw this out there, I know that the DDB VTT is a long long way off, I've known that from the beginning, before I even posted this thread. I remember a live stream a year or so ago when they said that it's taken more of a backseat. This was more of a "Hey DNDBeyond Devs, lot's of us out here are still very interested in your VTT so don't put it off forever", type of thing. Stemming mostly from frustration from the lack of quality and support coming from the Roll20 team in recent months.
Just FYI, coming from a software engineer, the vast majority of what you wrote is not accurate when it comes to how a VTT works or the implementation of code for a virtual table.
I'm not going to pick apart your entire post but my other software engineers here in my office had a pretty good laugh at your lack of knowledge and the assumption that you're talking to somebody who is not experienced in the field, or based on your original replay of, I've been playing DND for 25 years. "Rookie numbers BTW", or is new to the hobby or online RPGs. Oh and if you think time spent is for some reason a level of authority when it comes to a subject, I've been playing Dungeons and Dragons since 1982 on and off, but really dug in and played weekly since late 84 early 85.
As somebody who has worked on VTTs and in software development I'm going to rely on my own experience and knowledge over yours and those in your "office". So I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I don't know why you're bringing up how long you've played D&D for. This is entirely irrelevant.
Also, just to throw this out there, I know that the DDB VTT is a long long way off, I've known that from the beginning, before I even posted this thread. I remember a live stream a year or so ago when they said that it's taken more of a backseat. This was more of a "Hey DNDBeyond Devs, lot's of us out here are still very interested in your VTT so don't put it off forever", type of thing. Stemming mostly from frustration from the lack of quality and support coming from the Roll20 team in recent months.
Then I apologise for misinterpreting the intent of your original post which seemed to me that you were under impression D&D Beyond were well under way on the making of the actual VTT and expecting it to be finished soon so you could stop using Roll20.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
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So I can finally leave the dumpster fire that is Roll20!!!!!
It's going to be years. Plural. At minimum. Before they get their own VTT.
There are alternatives like Fantasy Grounds or Foundry if you don't like Roll20.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Do you have any links or direct quotes from devs to back up that claim that it will be years "Plural" before they are done with their VTT?
The Dev Updates give indications where in the process they are. Beyond that I rely on my 25 years of experience and observations on the speed at which D&D Beyond has completed their projects from first announcement to finish.
Their general features project, which includes things like the disciple of life bonus, epic boons, container management and similar has been on the works for many months (the disciple of life bonus in particular was first announced as being looked into over 2 years ago) and they've only gotten to the disciple of life bonus so far. The Mythic Odysseys of Theros book featured a Piety system and they're still working to implement this feature customers have paid for - and it was released July last year.
These are relatively easy features to implement that have taken several months to 2 years and little has been completed. A VTT is extremely more difficult to make. It's like comparing riding a tricycle to piloting a rocket ship. Bearing in mind to get the features we currently have working for that VTT properly, is going to require a complete overhaul of almost everything. They have laid ground work with tools like the dice roller, encounter builder and combat tracker but these aren't complete enough to be usable in VTT scenarios.
They are slow even during quiet periods but are slowed further when you consider they are contractually obligated to work on new WotC and UA content as they're released at top priority. They also have to work towards all the other bug fixes and homebrew tool improvements the paying customers are screaming at them for (and in some cases, have been for 3+years).
So yes. Based on observation, experience, years worth of mod posts and dev updates: it will be years before we see them make their own VTT. Even if they "buy" a VTT instead, it'll still take a dedicated team about a year to make it work with what they have so far. It's not like they just hash out a few lines of code - it's a lot more complicated than that.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
TLDR you have no posts from the Devs or links stating it will be "years" to confirm your claim.
Gotcha thanks :)
I'm not inclined to collate years worth of staff posts and dev updates for you. There is a Forum Search and links in the menu to the Dev Updates.
They haven't actually started the VTT yet, beyond the dice roller and the combat tracker and encounter builder which are still in alpha and beta testing stages.
By that fact alone - which you can prove by actually checking the dev updates yourself from the link in the main menu - it is going to be years.
If you prefer living with the expectation of this coming soon, on your head be it. Sorry for trying to save you from that.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
So they have not started their VTT yet with the exception of the 3 most important parts of any VTT aka the dice roller, combat tracker, and encounter builder.
*Facepalm*
A VTT is more than these things. These are made as separate, standalone, tools. They could be a groundwork on a future VTT or could be left standalone.
A Virtual Tabletop is a space designed to provide a visual representation of gameplay such as the use of maps, icons, avatars and so on with controls to move and arrange these. Moreover a VTT needs to connect these visual representations to sheets where character stats can be tracked. This is what Roll20 does. For ease of use VTTs often include what they can for automation. Most usually has some way to roll dice or play cards. They often have chat features, or ways to communicate and share information.
D&D Beyond doesn't have this. It has some elements like the character sheet and virtual dice, but this is a far cry from a VTT and there has not yet been any real commitment towards such a thing. These piecemeal tools are made in a standalone version due to the demands but this all they have and would actually have to be reworked from scratch to be compatible with typical VTT coding architecture (well, most of it, the dice roller engine itself would be a simpler import but the data feed and environment would be changed). Even after these were completed the VTT was on the "long term" development idea list on their public trello board "roadmap". They have since removed the VTT. More recently, they shut down the roadmap and removed all public access, and so we're now in the dark if they'll ever put VTT back on their distant future plans.
I believe Adam (the founder) mentioned in one of the dev updates over a year ago that a VTT was a very distant idea they were interested in and were unsure what form it would actually be as they didn't want to do what the plenty of other VTTs already do and there current system would not support such - everything would have to be redone. Which can be understandable - rewriting 3+ years of a system so it can work in a new VTT structure is a massive undertaking. He has since left the company.
A VTT isn't just somebody hashing a few lines of code. A proper, robust, VTT would take a very large amount of code - more than has ever been made for this site's history combined) which also has to be thoroughly tested to ensure everything works together which, it wont first time (never does) - then rewriting code based on those tests and testing it all again. Repeat until near-insane (testing the systems properly takes far longer than the actual coding, and no matter how much testing you do something always breaks when you open to public stages like alpha or beta phases). When finally happy - you get to go back and add more to make it user-friendly and nice on the eyes. And then you've got to recheck all those security holes. Oh and of course once you know it's working and secure, now you see how you can streamline it - because VTTs are resource-drain nightmares. This site has over 4 million users, with several hundred thousand active at any one time. So that is a massive buttload of resource drain - which could cause lag or even crash the system. That's actually the basis of a Denial of Service "hack" attack (even though it's technically not hacking, but whatevs): you exploit vulnerable code or use a botnet to make millions of database calls until the server gives in from strain and just nopes out. A server crashing down can also risk data corruption and loss if your backup systems aren't up to snuff. So when you make a resource-heavy VTT you need to be darn sure you're managing those calls, bandwidth and memory caches really effectively. And that's a pain in the arse, to be frank.
So yeah, it takes a long time, they haven't made a proper start beyond a few basic standalone bits that took between a few months to 2 years depending on which one, and they have a lot of other things they have to focus on first. Now add that they removed VTT from their list of long term future plans, then removed all public access to the roadmap and that the person who added it on has now left the company --- it doesn't seem like it will be soon, now does it?
So:
- They haven't started on the actual VTT yet, just some standalone common tools. No statement or commitment to starting a VTT has ever been made.
- VTT was removed from the roadmap months before the roadmap itself got taken down.
- It is a massive project that would take years to make due to having to rewrite 3+ years of work on the current system in order to get it to function.
... Yeah, it's gonna be years.
I say this because I thought it was better to manage your expectation. Rather than sticking with a VTT you don't like as you wait for D&D Beyond's, which may never arrive or would be years at least, you could then instead take a look at other currently existing VTTs which better suit your needs, like Fantasy Grounds, Foundry, Astral, Talespire, and more. Personally, Roll20 is fine for me. I just use D&D beyond for character sheet tracking and use Beyond20 extension to roll from my D&DB sheet directly into Roll20. All the pros of a VTT with all the benefits of the D&D Beyond character sheet.
But if you prefer to just stick with the waiting and Roll20 and think I'm lying to you - well, your prerogative. All the best, there, mate. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Just FYI, coming from a software engineer, the vast majority of what you wrote is not accurate when it comes to how a VTT works or the implementation of code for a virtual table.
I'm not going to pick apart your entire post but my other software engineers here in my office had a pretty good laugh at your lack of knowledge and the assumption that you're talking to somebody who is not experienced in the field, or based on your original replay of, I've been playing DND for 25 years. "Rookie numbers BTW", or is new to the hobby or online RPGs. Oh and if you think time spent is for some reason a level of authority when it comes to a subject, I've been playing Dungeons and Dragons since 1982 on and off, but really dug in and played weekly since late 84 early 85.
Also, just to throw this out there, I know that the DDB VTT is a long long way off, I've known that from the beginning, before I even posted this thread. I remember a live stream a year or so ago when they said that it's taken more of a backseat. This was more of a "Hey DNDBeyond Devs, lot's of us out here are still very interested in your VTT so don't put it off forever", type of thing. Stemming mostly from frustration from the lack of quality and support coming from the Roll20 team in recent months.
[REDACTED]
As somebody who has worked on VTTs and in software development I'm going to rely on my own experience and knowledge over yours and those in your "office". So I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I don't know why you're bringing up how long you've played D&D for. This is entirely irrelevant.
Then I apologise for misinterpreting the intent of your original post which seemed to me that you were under impression D&D Beyond were well under way on the making of the actual VTT and expecting it to be finished soon so you could stop using Roll20.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.