Expected Behaviour: In advancing a character from L3 with 18 DEX to L4 and selecting +2 DEX increase, I would expect a Total Score of 20.
Actual Behavior: With a negative Other Modifier as part of the score calculation, you will note that the math result is incorrect: Base Score (18) + Racial Bonus (+1) + Ability Improvements (+2) + Other Modifier (-1) = Total Score (19) but Total Score should be 20 (taking into account the -1 Other Modifier).
Steps to Reproduce: Create character with a Base Score of 18 on DEX with a Race that gives +1 DEX. Create that character with an Other Modifier of -1. At Level 3, DEX = 18. Switch to Level 4 and add ASI DEX +2. Notice that Total Score = 19.
Possible Cause: The calculation appears that it may be clipped at the max (20) before applying the Other Modifier. Thus, 18+1+2 = 21 -> gets clipped to 20 -> then 20-1=19.
I've had a look and this appears to be the correct order of operations for ability score calculations. Base score will have all it's bonuses (racial, ability improvements, etc) applied and then capped at 20. Other modifiers exist outside of the ability score calculation as a non-RAW homebrew function. As such if you reach the ability score cap for an ability, extra points are discarded before applying other modifiers. You would need to increase the ability score maximum to greater than 20 in order to keep these 'floating points' in order to mitigate the -1
The 'other modifiers' is not part of the RAW ability score calculation; it's a tool to facilitate homebrew modifications. As such, it is applied after all RAW calculations and limitations have been applied. This means the behaviour is not errant; the character builder/sheet is correctly applying all the RAW ability score calculations, then applying the 'other modifiers'
For example, I have made a character with a base strength score of 17, +2 to strength from their race, and +2 from ability score improvement. I then give them a magic item that gives -1 to strength. Because the magic item is part of the RAW ability score calculation, their score comes out at 20 (17+2+2-1, capped at 20)
If I think apply 'other modifier' of -1, because that's outside of the RAW calculation, it drops it to 19 (17+2+2-1, capped at 20, then -1)
If I remove the item, the total remains at 19 (17+2+2, capped at 20, then -1)
If you want to apply a negative modifier to a character, I'd recommend creating a homebrew item, feat, race or subrace that includes the modifier "Bonus - [Ability Score] - Fixed Value: [negative number]", This will provide the expected result rather than using the other modifier field.
I suppose the Rules as Written do not account for such homebrew origin modifiers.
Rules as written don't account for the Other Modifier field at all. That field is intended for short term modifiers (such as a the Shadow) rather than permanent effects from race, magic items, etc
One of the players in my campaign has a Stat that says 16 and a racial mod of +2, but it shows his score as a 21? Even though he is level 4 now he didn't apply his Ability score inprovement to his Dex...
Please share a link to the character if you can? With a score of 21, I think there is an item that is increasing it or they have used the override feature to increase it to 21.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Expected Behaviour: In advancing a character from L3 with 18 DEX to L4 and selecting +2 DEX increase, I would expect a Total Score of 20.
Actual Behavior: With a negative Other Modifier as part of the score calculation, you will note that the math result is incorrect: Base Score (18) + Racial Bonus (+1) + Ability Improvements (+2) + Other Modifier (-1) = Total Score (19) but Total Score should be 20 (taking into account the -1 Other Modifier).
Steps to Reproduce: Create character with a Base Score of 18 on DEX with a Race that gives +1 DEX. Create that character with an Other Modifier of -1. At Level 3, DEX = 18. Switch to Level 4 and add ASI DEX +2. Notice that Total Score = 19.
Possible Cause: The calculation appears that it may be clipped at the max (20) before applying the Other Modifier. Thus, 18+1+2 = 21 -> gets clipped to 20 -> then 20-1=19.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
ModeratorI've had a look and this appears to be the correct order of operations for ability score calculations. Base score will have all it's bonuses (racial, ability improvements, etc) applied and then capped at 20. Other modifiers exist outside of the ability score calculation as a non-RAW homebrew function. As such if you reach the ability score cap for an ability, extra points are discarded before applying other modifiers. You would need to increase the ability score maximum to greater than 20 in order to keep these 'floating points' in order to mitigate the -1
D&D Beyond moderator across forums, Discord, Twitch and YouTube. Always happy to help and willing to answer questions (or at least try). (he/him/his)
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat On - Mod Hat Off
Site Rules & Guidelines - Homebrew Rules - Looking for Players and Groups Rules
In other words, you confirm the errant behaviour exists
This sounds like a possible workaround and not a code fix.
Are you suggesting that the user interface allows a change to the ability score maximum in order to work around this weird order of operations?
BTW - is there a use case for having the order of operations that you describe as correct?
How does a user apply a -1 modifier while keeping their game capped to ability score maximum of 20?
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
ModeratorThe 'other modifiers' is not part of the RAW ability score calculation; it's a tool to facilitate homebrew modifications. As such, it is applied after all RAW calculations and limitations have been applied. This means the behaviour is not errant; the character builder/sheet is correctly applying all the RAW ability score calculations, then applying the 'other modifiers'
For example, I have made a character with a base strength score of 17, +2 to strength from their race, and +2 from ability score improvement. I then give them a magic item that gives -1 to strength. Because the magic item is part of the RAW ability score calculation, their score comes out at 20 (17+2+2-1, capped at 20)
If I think apply 'other modifier' of -1, because that's outside of the RAW calculation, it drops it to 19 (17+2+2-1, capped at 20, then -1)
If I remove the item, the total remains at 19 (17+2+2, capped at 20, then -1)
If you want to apply a negative modifier to a character, I'd recommend creating a homebrew item, feat, race or subrace that includes the modifier "Bonus - [Ability Score] - Fixed Value: [negative number]", This will provide the expected result rather than using the other modifier field.
D&D Beyond moderator across forums, Discord, Twitch and YouTube. Always happy to help and willing to answer questions (or at least try). (he/him/his)
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat On - Mod Hat Off
Site Rules & Guidelines - Homebrew Rules - Looking for Players and Groups Rules
Thanks for your recommendation.
A simpler work around is to do the calculations manually when there is an ASI and use the Override Score in the Ability Scores page.
I suppose the Rules as Written do not account for such homebrew origin modifiers.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
ModeratorRules as written don't account for the Other Modifier field at all. That field is intended for short term modifiers (such as a the Shadow) rather than permanent effects from race, magic items, etc
D&D Beyond moderator across forums, Discord, Twitch and YouTube. Always happy to help and willing to answer questions (or at least try). (he/him/his)
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat On - Mod Hat Off
Site Rules & Guidelines - Homebrew Rules - Looking for Players and Groups Rules
One of the players in my campaign has a Stat that says 16 and a racial mod of +2, but it shows his score as a 21? Even though he is level 4 now he didn't apply his Ability score inprovement to his Dex...
Ayooo...
I don't even work here tbh
Please share a link to the character if you can? With a score of 21, I think there is an item that is increasing it or they have used the override feature to increase it to 21.