Other page readers have a location point (eg Kindle) and physical page numbers can easily be pegged to the first word of that location. A search facility by page number would then allow for ease of cross referencing.
That's because Kindle's and the like are still organized in a book-like, linear manner. DDB takes that linear format, chops it up, and displays it as seperate web pages. So adding page numbers to a specific refernce point of a web page that correlates with a linear page number is more problematic than you seem to believe. That said, an easy (but not cheap, because time is money and this kind of editing would take a LOT of time) way I see to implement would be to add a line of text in the title block of the page that states, "Found on pages XX-XXX of the PHB."
As the others have said though, the DDB staff has far more pressing QoL and functional issues to handle first.What is "essential" to you isn't even an afterthought to most players and DMs I know. If I need to quick reference something to my DM I'll find it on DDB and hand them my device, which serves as the equivolent of showing them the book.
The fact DDB “chop” it up and use a web based approach make this easier not harder! The fact a player has done it non-natively says all you need to know.
You're confusing what fohswe has done with what people are asking for.
Fohswe has made a cross reference of every section to a page, that's useful but not what people are asking for. They even have a disclaimer:
Important note: Most links(?) in the reference does not correspond to an actual page break in the physical books, but rather to the closest linkable section of the DDB compendiums. That means that sometimes the information you might be looking for is above the section you arrive at. If you don't find what you're looking for, link to the page before and scroll down.
I made this reference by going through the DDB ToCs (and added some additional links) and looked up the corresponding page in the Core Rules.
What is being requested is the ability to extract the page number from any point in the page. That requires dynamic CSS mapping based on page delineations that have to be extracted from the books. Basically they'd have to go through books and identify at what point in the text the page changes. But there's a problem with this; the books have sidebars, DDB does not. All boxes are placed as breaks in the text, not in parallel. That means that you will frequently have misaligned page numbers due to some text being in different places. There's also the art formatting causing the same problem. It works on kindle because there's a 1:1 formatting parity between physical and digital. This is not true for DDB.
The next problem is actually extracting that information. How do you display the page number? You would need one of the following, each with its own problems:
Floating page number indicator based on the bottom most line of text - problem: this would give inaccurate numbers as you could be looking at text from one page and, depending on your monitor size, get a page number for the next, or even page after next, page. Also wouldn't work on mobile that doesn't have floating menus
Contextual right click menu that exposes page number - problem: massive undertaking to code a contextual menu system. Also doesn't work on mobile
Embedded information in copied text - problem: disruptive for users who copy-paste a lot of text. Also could cause issues with copying information that spans multiple pages. Might work on mobile but would serious reduce the mobile QoL
Fowshe's project is, while useful, not the level of implementation people are asking for, or would expect, of DDB, so using it as a metric of difficulty is disingenuous
I’m the one asking for it. Far more likely that you’re confused by what I’m asking than I am.
I seldom like to go here, but I have worked with developers for one of the World’s leading publishers who use this facility on one of their products to achieve exactly what I’m describing and do so to convert several thousand pages on a routine basis. Hence me saying it’s not a question of whether it’s difficult. It is _beyond_ easy. Granted, the company I’m referring to is significantly larger and with vastly greater resources. But that’s irrelevant since the task is an easy, inexpensive automated process.
But that’s really all irrelevant by now. Sadly, like so many forums, this has turned into an excuse just to have a debate for the sake of it. There really is nothing to be gained. If you don’t support someone’s suggestion, you’re entitled to that view. Wading in and expressing that view ad infinitum really does not achieve anything. It doesn’t help the community and it sure as heck doesn’t help the product.
Please don't ever assume that something would be "easy to implement" 😊
Adding page number references in this way is not something that is currently planned - "incalculably useful" seems to be something that a relatively small number of people care about according to feedback. If that changes, then we may reconsider.
I care about it very much. I know this conversation is old already, but I figured I'd throw that out there.
add me to the count of people that want some vague notion of which page things are on in the physical book. a way to implement this might be to just tag some section headings with page numbers. that would give us a way to at least ballpark where the info is in the DDB version.
Please don't ever assume that something would be "easy to implement" 😊
Adding page number references in this way is not something that is currently planned - "incalculably useful" seems to be something that a relatively small number of people care about according to feedback. If that changes, then we may reconsider.
Feedback as in requests or complaints? Have you had a poll of your users? I have never experienced an opportunity upon this site to give feedback as to this issue. Page numbers would be extremely useful.
Please don't ever assume that something would be "easy to implement" 😊
Adding page number references in this way is not something that is currently planned - "incalculably useful" seems to be something that a relatively small number of people care about according to feedback. If that changes, then we may reconsider.
Feedback as in requests or complaints? Have you had a poll of your users? I have never experienced an opportunity upon this site to give feedback as to this issue. Page numbers would be extremely useful.
There are a few ways to give feedback on requested features.
1 is to make a thread in feedback subforum, of which this is one of the only ones, so low demand there.
Another is the zendesk feature request, where there are a whopping 3 requests for page numbers totaling a whopping 70 up votes (which puts it in the bottom percent of feature requests).
There are a few other ways like comments during live q&as, etc. The demand is practically non-existent there too.
These are all good channels of communication for DND Beyond to have but they are a poor metric for assessing wider community appeal.
It amazes me that frequenters of online communities still assume they are reflective of wider opinion. It is the entire problem with social media. There is a reason why (a) the phrase “silent majority” exists and (b) why sophisticated, multi-million dollar opinion polls have struggled recently.
Have these polls, have these feedback zones and take them on board. But don’t inflate what analysis can be applied to the data.
The issue should actually be far more straightforward: (a) would this be useful, (b) can this be implemented, (c) what priority should it be given.
(a) is an undeniable yes. (b) I’d argue is a also a yes. (c) is a matter for DnDB based on analysis we do not have.
These are all good channels of communication for DND Beyond to have but they are a poor metric for assessing wider community appeal.
It amazes me that frequenters of online communities still assume they are reflective of wider opinion. It is the entire problem with social media. There is a reason why (a) the phrase “silent majority” exists and (b) why sophisticated, multi-million dollar opinion polls have struggled recently.
Have these polls, have these feedback zones and take them on board. But don’t inflate what analysis can be applied to the data.
The issue should actually be far more straightforward: (a) would this be useful, (b) can this be implemented, (c) what priority should it be given.
(a) is an undeniable yes. (b) I’d argue is a also a yes. (c) is a matter for DnDB based on analysis we do not have.
DDB is well aware that a majority of their users don't actively give feedback, but of the ones that do, less than 0.01% ask about page numbers. They really don't need more than that to know this is low priority.
Furthermore, they have commented that the compendium gets partly rearranged compares to the books, so you might have situations where a section goes from page 105 to 106 to 105 to 107, and didn't want to confuse their users.
Which brings your answers to: a) only sometimes for only some people. b) yes, after some time. c) very, very low.
My players and I love our hard copies also. General page numbers would be greatly appreciated. Alas, it isn't too important to others.
I have found the above link for PHB pages to be useful in the meantime (thanks be to the creator fohswe and to DxJxC for posting it earlier in this thread). If you want to upvote elsewhere for page numbers here is a link to the thread that DxJxC referred to previously, but good luck, it's old and doesn't have much traction. https://dndbeyond.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/360027342033-Page-numbers
Ok, I’m not sure how many different ways to say the % point is meaningless (and, incidentally 100% not one that DND Beyond would rely upon).
And you’re (a) and (b) are a yes and yes expressed differently. I understand you’re not interested in the idea. I understand you don’t think it’s a priority. [REDACTED].
Ok, I’m not sure how many different ways to say the % point is meaningless (and, incidentally 100% not one that DND Beyond would rely upon).
And you’re (a) and (b) are a yes and yes expressed differently. I understand you’re not interested in the idea. I understand you don’t think it’s a priority. Beyond that, I’m not sure what you hope to achieve by trolling someone’s suggestion.
Yeah, % is irrelevant. Only point is: small number of requests = low priority, large number of request = high priority.
(a) in the sense that "yes" a grain of sand is a rock. (b) wasn't expressed differently, "yes" was in the sentence.
I never expressed my opinion in the suggestion. I think it would have been helpful both times I was given a page reference. My first comment on this thread was to link where someone had gone through the trouble of marching page number sections as best they could (I also helped get that thread pinned because that was helpful and I wanted other people to be able to find it).
I'm not trying to troll, I am only trying to tell people that just because they and a few others want something, DDB is not going to put off dozens of more requested features and do the less requested feature first. While doing so, I have told them how to show their support for this feature, rather than just whine that DDB didn't ask them personally.
Then it may be less about what your saying and more how you’re saying it. Quoting meaningless percentage figures at people has the effect of demeaning their suggestion. I’ve come here to make a suggestion of how I think the product can be improved. Hearing a response along the lines of ‘only 0.01% are interested in what your saying’, (especially when statistically redundant) is not conducive to a welcoming environment for suggestions. Most of us have enough stress in our work lives, without having to engage in pointless debates in a community because we thought to make a suggestion about a hobby we all love.
Count me in as someone who would like page numbers. Especially since WotC will reference page numbers, and others do too like in stream chats or Twitter. Also it seems useful considering WorC also uses page numbers in thier marketing material now.
User story: As DM/PC, when I see a reference to a page in the core rules (i.e. PHB 178), I would like the ability to easily navigate to it, whether I've purchased the physical or electronic book.
I would re-frame the reasoning from "percentage of users requesting" to maintaining parity (within reason) with the physical experience.
Referring to specific PHB, DMG, MM pages is so common-place online, especially among forums - pointing new players to core rules, helping veterans find how underwater combat works, winning an online battle against a stranger showing them exactly where the rule is defined. It would be great if online subscribers could benefit from these indexes when we encounter them.
A page number feature would be extremely useful. The fact that I have all the sourcebooks electronically through ddb but still use an outside reference when I need to find a reference associated with a page number says something. While your search function is good it also leaves something to be desired in terms of near matching. Being able to quickly jump to a digital page would make the electronic versions of the rule books more useful.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
That's because Kindle's and the like are still organized in a book-like, linear manner. DDB takes that linear format, chops it up, and displays it as seperate web pages. So adding page numbers to a specific refernce point of a web page that correlates with a linear page number is more problematic than you seem to believe. That said, an easy (but not cheap, because time is money and this kind of editing would take a LOT of time) way I see to implement would be to add a line of text in the title block of the page that states, "Found on pages XX-XXX of the PHB."
As the others have said though, the DDB staff has far more pressing QoL and functional issues to handle first.What is "essential" to you isn't even an afterthought to most players and DMs I know. If I need to quick reference something to my DM I'll find it on DDB and hand them my device, which serves as the equivolent of showing them the book.
The fact DDB “chop” it up and use a web based approach make this easier not harder! The fact a player has done it non-natively says all you need to know.
You're confusing what fohswe has done with what people are asking for.
Fohswe has made a cross reference of every section to a page, that's useful but not what people are asking for. They even have a disclaimer:
What is being requested is the ability to extract the page number from any point in the page. That requires dynamic CSS mapping based on page delineations that have to be extracted from the books. Basically they'd have to go through books and identify at what point in the text the page changes. But there's a problem with this; the books have sidebars, DDB does not. All boxes are placed as breaks in the text, not in parallel. That means that you will frequently have misaligned page numbers due to some text being in different places. There's also the art formatting causing the same problem. It works on kindle because there's a 1:1 formatting parity between physical and digital. This is not true for DDB.
The next problem is actually extracting that information. How do you display the page number? You would need one of the following, each with its own problems:
Fowshe's project is, while useful, not the level of implementation people are asking for, or would expect, of DDB, so using it as a metric of difficulty is disingenuous
D&D Beyond moderator across forums, Discord, Twitch and YouTube. Always happy to help and willing to answer questions (or at least try). (he/him/his)
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat On - Mod Hat Off
Site Rules & Guidelines - Homebrew Rules - Looking for Players and Groups Rules
I’m the one asking for it. Far more likely that you’re confused by what I’m asking than I am.
I seldom like to go here, but I have worked with developers for one of the World’s leading publishers who use this facility on one of their products to achieve exactly what I’m describing and do so to convert several thousand pages on a routine basis. Hence me saying it’s not a question of whether it’s difficult. It is _beyond_ easy. Granted, the company I’m referring to is significantly larger and with vastly greater resources. But that’s irrelevant since the task is an easy, inexpensive automated process.
But that’s really all irrelevant by now. Sadly, like so many forums, this has turned into an excuse just to have a debate for the sake of it. There really is nothing to be gained. If you don’t support someone’s suggestion, you’re entitled to that view. Wading in and expressing that view ad infinitum really does not achieve anything. It doesn’t help the community and it sure as heck doesn’t help the product.
You disagree. Thats already been noted.
I desperately want an integrated page reference for all the source books. Players and DMs have constantly been referencing by source book AND PAGE.
PLEASE implement this.
This is truly helpful for the newer players. Long time players probably don't care as much because they know the books like the back of their hand.
Army-man (US Army), Policeman (LAPD), Fireman (LAFD), son/brother/husband/father GAMER = been there, done that, doing it! :)
I care about it very much. I know this conversation is old already, but I figured I'd throw that out there.
add me to the count of people that want some vague notion of which page things are on in the physical book. a way to implement this might be to just tag some section headings with page numbers. that would give us a way to at least ballpark where the info is in the DDB version.
Feedback as in requests or complaints? Have you had a poll of your users? I have never experienced an opportunity upon this site to give feedback as to this issue. Page numbers would be extremely useful.
There are a few ways to give feedback on requested features.
1 is to make a thread in feedback subforum, of which this is one of the only ones, so low demand there.
Another is the zendesk feature request, where there are a whopping 3 requests for page numbers totaling a whopping 70 up votes (which puts it in the bottom percent of feature requests).
There are a few other ways like comments during live q&as, etc. The demand is practically non-existent there too.
These are all good channels of communication for DND Beyond to have but they are a poor metric for assessing wider community appeal.
It amazes me that frequenters of online communities still assume they are reflective of wider opinion. It is the entire problem with social media. There is a reason why (a) the phrase “silent majority” exists and (b) why sophisticated, multi-million dollar opinion polls have struggled recently.
Have these polls, have these feedback zones and take them on board. But don’t inflate what analysis can be applied to the data.
The issue should actually be far more straightforward: (a) would this be useful, (b) can this be implemented, (c) what priority should it be given.
(a) is an undeniable yes. (b) I’d argue is a also a yes. (c) is a matter for DnDB based on analysis we do not have.
DDB is well aware that a majority of their users don't actively give feedback, but of the ones that do, less than 0.01% ask about page numbers. They really don't need more than that to know this is low priority.
Furthermore, they have commented that the compendium gets partly rearranged compares to the books, so you might have situations where a section goes from page 105 to 106 to 105 to 107, and didn't want to confuse their users.
Which brings your answers to: a) only sometimes for only some people. b) yes, after some time. c) very, very low.
My players and I love our hard copies also. General page numbers would be greatly appreciated. Alas, it isn't too important to others.
I have found the above link for PHB pages to be useful in the meantime (thanks be to the creator fohswe and to DxJxC for posting it earlier in this thread).
If you want to upvote elsewhere for page numbers here is a link to the thread that DxJxC referred to previously, but good luck, it's old and doesn't have much traction.
https://dndbeyond.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/360027342033-Page-numbers
Army-man (US Army), Policeman (LAPD), Fireman (LAFD), son/brother/husband/father GAMER = been there, done that, doing it! :)
Ok, I’m not sure how many different ways to say the % point is meaningless (and, incidentally 100% not one that DND Beyond would rely upon).
And you’re (a) and (b) are a yes and yes expressed differently. I understand you’re not interested in the idea. I understand you don’t think it’s a priority. [REDACTED].
Yeah, % is irrelevant. Only point is: small number of requests = low priority, large number of request = high priority.
(a) in the sense that "yes" a grain of sand is a rock. (b) wasn't expressed differently, "yes" was in the sentence.
I never expressed my opinion in the suggestion. I think it would have been helpful both times I was given a page reference. My first comment on this thread was to link where someone had gone through the trouble of marching page number sections as best they could (I also helped get that thread pinned because that was helpful and I wanted other people to be able to find it).
I'm not trying to troll, I am only trying to tell people that just because they and a few others want something, DDB is not going to put off dozens of more requested features and do the less requested feature first. While doing so, I have told them how to show their support for this feature, rather than just whine that DDB didn't ask them personally.
Then it may be less about what your saying and more how you’re saying it. Quoting meaningless percentage figures at people has the effect of demeaning their suggestion. I’ve come here to make a suggestion of how I think the product can be improved. Hearing a response along the lines of ‘only 0.01% are interested in what your saying’, (especially when statistically redundant) is not conducive to a welcoming environment for suggestions. Most of us have enough stress in our work lives, without having to engage in pointless debates in a community because we thought to make a suggestion about a hobby we all love.
Count me in as someone who would like page numbers. Especially since WotC will reference page numbers, and others do too like in stream chats or Twitter. Also it seems useful considering WorC also uses page numbers in thier marketing material now.
Would also like to see page numbers.
I'll add to the list of people who want page numbers. Friends tend to use physical books and the lack of page numbers can make communication tricky.
+1 for this feature request.
User story: As DM/PC, when I see a reference to a page in the core rules (i.e. PHB 178), I would like the ability to easily navigate to it, whether I've purchased the physical or electronic book.
I would re-frame the reasoning from "percentage of users requesting" to maintaining parity (within reason) with the physical experience.
Referring to specific PHB, DMG, MM pages is so common-place online, especially among forums - pointing new players to core rules, helping veterans find how underwater combat works, winning an online battle against a stranger showing them exactly where the rule is defined. It would be great if online subscribers could benefit from these indexes when we encounter them.
A page number feature would be extremely useful. The fact that I have all the sourcebooks electronically through ddb but still use an outside reference when I need to find a reference associated with a page number says something. While your search function is good it also leaves something to be desired in terms of near matching. Being able to quickly jump to a digital page would make the electronic versions of the rule books more useful.