Have the fighter roll say a D20 (or whatever die the DM wishes) and that determines the direction he moves. That's what our DM got us to do when the characters were put into darkness.
Could also have the fighter (or anyone) roll Perception (maybe a high DC) to notice where the spell exploded from (thus know where the center is).
Contrary to revisionist history, and the parsing of the wording the spell, it is abundantly clear that Darkness falls simultaneously across the entire area. The Fighter has zero ability to figure out the epicenter. A ton of spells would be ruined if that was the case.
Which still leaves the fighter with a somewhat informed decision. He may not know there is an edge he can reach, but he can hope for that since otherwise he's really, really screwed. He may not know in which direction he can reach that edge the quickest, but he knows roughly where the dragon is and probably has a notion of a couple of notable features in the room, such as the exit, maybe something that can be used for cover, or just the nearest wall which he can use to orient himself further or as a guide towards wherever he wants to go.
So, all in all, how to decide whether the decision of the fighter is based on metagame knowledge or just common in-game sense?
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Contrary to revisionist history, and the parsing of the wording the spell, it is abundantly clear that Darkness falls simultaneously across the entire area.
It's abundantly clear that it is a single action to complete, but D&D has never addressed timing beyond that.
In my game, casters of book and casters of faith generally have training. So while your college or temple may have been too poor to have some one cast Darkness on you for one of your finals, you were taught it existed. As for Non casters, what you don't share stories and information at the local tavern? But if you want a ruling. DC 15 plus level of spell to know what was.
Have the fighter roll say a D20 (or whatever die the DM wishes) and that determines the direction he moves. That's what our DM got us to do when the characters were put into darkness.
Could also have the fighter (or anyone) roll Perception (maybe a high DC) to notice where the spell exploded from (thus know where the center is).
Contrary to revisionist history, and the parsing of the wording the spell, it is abundantly clear that Darkness falls simultaneously across the entire area. The Fighter has zero ability to figure out the epicenter. A ton of spells would be ruined if that was the case.
What part of "Magical darkness spreads from a point you choose within range to fill a 15-foot-radius sphere for the duration. The darkness spreads around corners..." implies simultaneous? "spreads" in most common english would mean that it starts small and expands, presumably over some duration of time, but certainly not instant. a single action could take up to 6 seconds, so I don't see why you would say definitively that the spell is instant, either based on its casting time or on the actual decriptive wording of the spell (unless you have a very different definition of what it means to "spread")
Have the fighter roll say a D20 (or whatever die the DM wishes) and that determines the direction he moves. That's what our DM got us to do when the characters were put into darkness.
Could also have the fighter (or anyone) roll Perception (maybe a high DC) to notice where the spell exploded from (thus know where the center is).
Contrary to revisionist history, and the parsing of the wording the spell, it is abundantly clear that Darkness falls simultaneously across the entire area. The Fighter has zero ability to figure out the epicenter. A ton of spells would be ruined if that was the case.
What part of "Magical darkness spreads from a point you choose within range to fill a 15-foot-radius sphere for the duration. The darkness spreads around corners..." implies simultaneous? "spreads" in most common english would mean that it starts small and expands, presumably over some duration of time, but certainly not instant. a single action could take up to 6 seconds, so I don't see why you would say definitively that the spell is instant, either based on its casting time or on the actual decriptive wording of the spell (unless you have a very different definition of what it means to "spread")
It is simultaneous, no matter how badly the spell is written.
Have the fighter roll say a D20 (or whatever die the DM wishes) and that determines the direction he moves. That's what our DM got us to do when the characters were put into darkness.
Could also have the fighter (or anyone) roll Perception (maybe a high DC) to notice where the spell exploded from (thus know where the center is).
Contrary to revisionist history, and the parsing of the wording the spell, it is abundantly clear that Darkness falls simultaneously across the entire area. The Fighter has zero ability to figure out the epicenter. A ton of spells would be ruined if that was the case.
What part of "Magical darkness spreads from a point you choose within range to fill a 15-foot-radius sphere for the duration. The darkness spreads around corners..." implies simultaneous? "spreads" in most common english would mean that it starts small and expands, presumably over some duration of time, but certainly not instant. a single action could take up to 6 seconds, so I don't see why you would say definitively that the spell is instant, either based on its casting time or on the actual decriptive wording of the spell (unless you have a very different definition of what it means to "spread")
It is simultaneous, no matter how badly the spell is written.
I'd say it's effectively simultaneous, but you can see it spreading. You can't say that a fireball is simultaneous.
It is simultaneous, no matter how badly the spell is written.
Other than your assertion, do you have evidence for this? It appears that darkness acts like an anti-torch, so presumably that part spreads at the speed of light, but that doesn't mean the it reaches full anti-brightness instantly
Have the fighter roll say a D20 (or whatever die the DM wishes) and that determines the direction he moves. That's what our DM got us to do when the characters were put into darkness.
Could also have the fighter (or anyone) roll Perception (maybe a high DC) to notice where the spell exploded from (thus know where the center is).
Contrary to revisionist history, and the parsing of the wording the spell, it is abundantly clear that Darkness falls simultaneously across the entire area. The Fighter has zero ability to figure out the epicenter. A ton of spells would be ruined if that was the case.
What part of "Magical darkness spreads from a point you choose within range to fill a 15-foot-radius sphere for the duration. The darkness spreads around corners..." implies simultaneous? "spreads" in most common english would mean that it starts small and expands, presumably over some duration of time, but certainly not instant. a single action could take up to 6 seconds, so I don't see why you would say definitively that the spell is instant, either based on its casting time or on the actual decriptive wording of the spell (unless you have a very different definition of what it means to "spread")
It is simultaneous, no matter how badly the spell is written.
I would think the facts of the definitions and plain English usage of the words used in the spell description would override your feelings of what the spell should be.
It is simultaneous, no matter how badly the spell is written.
Other than your assertion, do you have evidence for this? It appears that darkness acts like an anti-torch, so presumably that part spreads at the speed of light, but that doesn't mean the it reaches full anti-brightness instantly
OK..you are right. Darkness moves at the speed that light from a torch moves away from the source. Prove me wrong.
It is simultaneous, no matter how badly the spell is written.
Other than your assertion, do you have evidence for this? It appears that darkness acts like an anti-torch, so presumably that part spreads at the speed of light, but that doesn't mean the it reaches full anti-brightness instantly
OK..you are right. Darkness moves at the speed that light from a torch moves away from the source. Prove me wrong.
Just like a torch doesn't necessarily reach full brightness the instant you light it, darkness doesn't necessarily reach full anti-brightness the instant you cast it.
If the spell isn't instantaneous and simultaneous, then the whole argument this entire forsaken thread is based on falls apart --- those other players weren't metagaming, they were just playing rationally, with tacit support from the DM.
It is simultaneous, no matter how badly the spell is written.
Other than your assertion, do you have evidence for this? It appears that darkness acts like an anti-torch, so presumably that part spreads at the speed of light, but that doesn't mean the it reaches full anti-brightness instantly
OK..you are right. Darkness moves at the speed that light from a torch moves away from the source. Prove me wrong.
Just like a torch doesn't necessarily reach full brightness the instant you light it, darkness doesn't necessarily reach full anti-brightness the instant you cast it.
Tell you what. You dig through however much 5e documentation as you like, and get back to me on how long darkness takes to travel from a source to its edge, if it is a spell. We are really into weeds that were never ever considered, and for good reason.
Does anyone here agree with Vince, or is this just a 'Vince versus the World" situation?
Hot Take:
"Spread" implies a progression, however, it has no implication of speed. A grenade spreads from a point, but the explosion happens too quickly to follow in the moment. A torch will flicker to life, but a lightbulb turns on in milliseconds.
An "Action" represents approximately 3 seconds, however, that timing only directly reflects the casting time, not the time to manifestation.
The Darkness spell simply doesn't make any statement that can provide an objective answer to what the Darkness spell looks like during casting, aside from being in full effect by the end of the action window. Beyond that, it's purely in the territory of DM discretion.
Cinematically, seeing a seed of darkness forming in the air to fill the space is much more interesting and interactive, but does carry some mechanical consequences. However, the thing to consider is that, usually, when a spell forces an effect on a victim, the game ensures that there is a saving throw to give the players a chance to escape or minimize the impact. Fireball is an obvious example, however Wall of Stone also explicitly provides a dexterity saving throw in the event that the casting would cause a target to be trapped on 4 sides, giving the victim free movement, up to their maximum speed, as a reaction.
Now, being effectively blinded isn't as dangerous as being trapped, and there are spells like Heat Metal that impose no-save situations, but in the event of ambiguity, the RAI seems to lean in the player's advantage. Having Darkness impose difficult terrain, confusion, or otherwise force them to waste actions from ignorance isn't in the spirit of the game design.
Ergo, players should be assumed to know at least enough about the basics of the elements in play that they are no more penalized than the spell explicitly accounts for, unless the DM deliberately narrates the scene in a way to impose greater stakes. However that is justified is a separate issue.
It is simultaneous, no matter how badly the spell is written.
Other than your assertion, do you have evidence for this? It appears that darkness acts like an anti-torch, so presumably that part spreads at the speed of light, but that doesn't mean the it reaches full anti-brightness instantly
OK..you are right. Darkness moves at the speed that light from a torch moves away from the source. Prove me wrong.
While not necessarily a hinderance to its speed, the fact that magical darkness spreads around corners would indicate it does not behave like light. Of course this is up to DM discretion.
It is simultaneous, no matter how badly the spell is written.
Other than your assertion, do you have evidence for this? It appears that darkness acts like an anti-torch, so presumably that part spreads at the speed of light, but that doesn't mean the it reaches full anti-brightness instantly
OK..you are right. Darkness moves at the speed that light from a torch moves away from the source. Prove me wrong.
Just like a torch doesn't necessarily reach full brightness the instant you light it, darkness doesn't necessarily reach full anti-brightness the instant you cast it.
Tell you what. You dig through however much 5e documentation as you like, and get back to me on how long darkness takes to travel from a source to its edge, if it is a spell. We are really into weeds that were never ever considered, and for good reason.
Yes, we're into weeds that were never even considered, and therefore 'how fast does the darkness spread' is a GM call, as long as it completes in one action.
"Spreads from a point" doesn't even specify that point is the center of the 15-ft radius sphere. In theory it could spread along the circumference at first, like black paint being poured over a globe, and then fill up the sphere like rising water. Just do whatever you think is the coolest/most interesting/most effective/funniest/whatever quality you value most for your campaign.
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Which still leaves the fighter with a somewhat informed decision. He may not know there is an edge he can reach, but he can hope for that since otherwise he's really, really screwed. He may not know in which direction he can reach that edge the quickest, but he knows roughly where the dragon is and probably has a notion of a couple of notable features in the room, such as the exit, maybe something that can be used for cover, or just the nearest wall which he can use to orient himself further or as a guide towards wherever he wants to go.
So, all in all, how to decide whether the decision of the fighter is based on metagame knowledge or just common in-game sense?
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
It's abundantly clear that it is a single action to complete, but D&D has never addressed timing beyond that.
In my game, casters of book and casters of faith generally have training. So while your college or temple may have been too poor to have some one cast Darkness on you for one of your finals, you were taught it existed. As for Non casters, what you don't share stories and information at the local tavern? But if you want a ruling. DC 15 plus level of spell to know what was.
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
What part of "Magical darkness spreads from a point you choose within range to fill a 15-foot-radius sphere for the duration. The darkness spreads around corners..." implies simultaneous? "spreads" in most common english would mean that it starts small and expands, presumably over some duration of time, but certainly not instant. a single action could take up to 6 seconds, so I don't see why you would say definitively that the spell is instant, either based on its casting time or on the actual decriptive wording of the spell (unless you have a very different definition of what it means to "spread")
It is simultaneous, no matter how badly the spell is written.
I'd say it's effectively simultaneous, but you can see it spreading. You can't say that a fireball is simultaneous.
I have a weird sense of humor.
I also make maps.(That's a link)
Other than your assertion, do you have evidence for this? It appears that darkness acts like an anti-torch, so presumably that part spreads at the speed of light, but that doesn't mean the it reaches full anti-brightness instantly
I would think the facts of the definitions and plain English usage of the words used in the spell description would override your feelings of what the spell should be.
OK..you are right. Darkness moves at the speed that light from a torch moves away from the source. Prove me wrong.
Just like a torch doesn't necessarily reach full brightness the instant you light it, darkness doesn't necessarily reach full anti-brightness the instant you cast it.
If the spell isn't instantaneous and simultaneous, then the whole argument this entire forsaken thread is based on falls apart --- those other players weren't metagaming, they were just playing rationally, with tacit support from the DM.
Tell you what. You dig through however much 5e documentation as you like, and get back to me on how long darkness takes to travel from a source to its edge, if it is a spell. We are really into weeds that were never ever considered, and for good reason.
I'm amazed that this thread is still on-going.
Does anyone here agree with Vince, or is this just a 'Vince versus the World" situation?
Hot Take:
"Spread" implies a progression, however, it has no implication of speed. A grenade spreads from a point, but the explosion happens too quickly to follow in the moment. A torch will flicker to life, but a lightbulb turns on in milliseconds.
An "Action" represents approximately 3 seconds, however, that timing only directly reflects the casting time, not the time to manifestation.
The Darkness spell simply doesn't make any statement that can provide an objective answer to what the Darkness spell looks like during casting, aside from being in full effect by the end of the action window. Beyond that, it's purely in the territory of DM discretion.
Cinematically, seeing a seed of darkness forming in the air to fill the space is much more interesting and interactive, but does carry some mechanical consequences. However, the thing to consider is that, usually, when a spell forces an effect on a victim, the game ensures that there is a saving throw to give the players a chance to escape or minimize the impact. Fireball is an obvious example, however Wall of Stone also explicitly provides a dexterity saving throw in the event that the casting would cause a target to be trapped on 4 sides, giving the victim free movement, up to their maximum speed, as a reaction.
Now, being effectively blinded isn't as dangerous as being trapped, and there are spells like Heat Metal that impose no-save situations, but in the event of ambiguity, the RAI seems to lean in the player's advantage. Having Darkness impose difficult terrain, confusion, or otherwise force them to waste actions from ignorance isn't in the spirit of the game design.
Ergo, players should be assumed to know at least enough about the basics of the elements in play that they are no more penalized than the spell explicitly accounts for, unless the DM deliberately narrates the scene in a way to impose greater stakes. However that is justified is a separate issue.
While not necessarily a hinderance to its speed, the fact that magical darkness spreads around corners would indicate it does not behave like light. Of course this is up to DM discretion.
Yes, we're into weeds that were never even considered, and therefore 'how fast does the darkness spread' is a GM call, as long as it completes in one action.
"Spreads from a point" doesn't even specify that point is the center of the 15-ft radius sphere. In theory it could spread along the circumference at first, like black paint being poured over a globe, and then fill up the sphere like rising water. Just do whatever you think is the coolest/most interesting/most effective/funniest/whatever quality you value most for your campaign.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].