Also why would you need to have stupid high DCs on lock picks just because there's a character with +18 lockpicking? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of investing in the skill in hte first place? The player clearly designed the character never to be stopped by a locked door ever again. This should not be mitigated by the DM imo.
Because a high level Rogue, or group in general, is not going to be wasting time with low end locks and traps with equally low end rewards.
What is the DC on picking the lock on your front door compared to the DC of breaking into a bank vault? It is perfectly valid to have a DC of say 15 for a lock for a 3rd or 4th level group. It is equally valid to have a DC of 25 for the group at 11th level. The challenge of the encounter goes up, in all aspects, not just the CR level of the monsters and NPC's.
If any lock can be picked by the Artificer with his +18, why should the DM even bother having locks in the campaign at all?
So one, I have NO IDEA how we're getting to +18 lockpicking. A class would have to have expertise in thieves tools, 22 DEX AND be level 17. If the number was just thrown out to be thrown out, I get it but it's just not obtainable in 95% of games.
Going back to stealing thunder, if the artificer wants to attempt the lock? Let them. They obviously invested in the character, and if there's a rogue in the party? If I were them I'd just sit back and scoff when the guy who built their artificer character to do this fails and I just walk up and go and roll a nat 1 and look at the artificer and go "23", assuming we're level 11 or higher.
Speaking to trap/disarm DCs, it depends on what we're doing, right. I don't like arbitrarily raising DCs just because the party is increasing in power. I just take that piece of the game out of the equation, so now when a potential fail does come up there's gravity to it. Telling the rogue "Roll" at level 12 to roll with reliable talent teaches the party it's an oh shit moment, and the minute I say roll, I don't allow "give bardic inspiration" or any such intervention unless the ability says it can happen after the fact. Divination Wizard of course can go HEY I USE A PORTENT ROLL if they have one and before the die is rolled. DM Inspiration of course allows the reroll, and if they use that, then I'll allow the party to jump in too. If someone is going to blow a valuable resource like that, obviously they want it to work, I want the party to feel the gravity of the resources is successful.
5th edition's problem is that the game is very obviously designed below level 13. It just doesn't scale into the very high end well, because all puzzles at that point can be solved by character sheets, and not players being creative. Movement isn't an issue with teleporting around the globe, escaping hard puzzles is easy with knock, dispel magic, etc. That being said, I don't want to create stupid high DCs just to have failures on rolls because the reality who, who the **** Is making those things? If you have a wizard who can make a DC 35 check as the big bad evil guy, why the hell isn't the world destroyed yet. If there's a random small-town bank with a DC 35 lock on its vault, it better be hiding some god-tier item because if not, HOW did that town afford that lock?
I don't use the table for example DCs that is given in whichever book its given, I use this one from a reddit thread that's like six years old:
Trivial (DC 0) A task that is so easy that isn't worth a check. An adventurer can almost always succeed automatically.
Very Easy (DC 5) Requires a minimum level of competence or a bit of luck to accomplish.
Easy (DC 10) Requires a minimum level of competence or a bit of luck to accomplish.
Moderate (DC 15) Requires a bit more competence to accomplish. Can be completed more often than not by a character with both natural aptitude and specialized training.
Hard (DC 20) Include anything beyond the capabilities of the average person without aid or exceptional talent. Even with a bit of training and skill you still need some luck to pull it off (or maybe some specialized training). Note: This is where things start to be out of the reach by standard fluff NPCs/Commoners. This is still a hard check for any class without expertise as well, but with expertise, it becomes a lot more achievable. Level 13 characters without expertise, assuming no magical bonuses and a 20 in a stat are going to fail this half the time.
Very Hard (DC 25) Achievable only by especially talented individuals. Nobody else should even bother trying. Note: This is where expertise is going to start paying off. This is also where I will start including things that if the player asks the right questions, or maybe they've found something earlier that gives a hint, that I will lower the DC from Very Hard to Hard. Even high level rogues with reliable talent need to roll here unless they are 13th or higher.
Formidable (DC 30) Achievable only by the most trained, experienced, and talented individuals, and they probably still need help to pull it off. Note: Help means teamwork. No amount of character sheets are going to solve this without immense help, prior knowledge to lower the DC somehow or just insane rolls.
Nearly Impossible (DC 35) An epic feat on which legendary tales are based on. The named masters of skill come from acts such as these. Note: Insane rolls were needed before, perfect rolls are needed now. If I'm dropping a 35 DC on something, it's because you aren't doing it right as a player group. This can still be done by groups where someone with expertise has been given bardic inspiration and rolls insanely high on both pieces, but generally, I have given the players the opportunity to lower this somehow, and they didn't find it or just flat out refused to use it or aren't remembering something.
Godly (DC 40) Can't be done without assistance unless you're basically a demigod. - This isn't going to be done by characters unless you're 17+. Period. Assuming 20 stats, expertise and no magic items that boost the skill, the highest you can roll at level 17 is a 37. Bardic Inspiration at this level by an equivalent bard is a D12, so now the highest you can roll is a 49. If my table rolls a 49? You know what? You get in. I don't care what it is, you did it. You might not SURVIVE what's inside but you get in.
doesn't expertise give +12 with thieves tools? +6 is the biggest modifier before expertise and if it's doubled it should be 12? 12 + 5 is 17, +4 from guidance is 21 not +18.
I don't see where either +15 or + 18 comes from tbh?
Also why would you need to have stupid high DCs on lock picks just because there's a character with +18 lockpicking? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of investing in the skill in hte first place? The player clearly designed the character never to be stopped by a locked door ever again. This should not be mitigated by the DM imo.
Because a high level Rogue, or group in general, is not going to be wasting time with low end locks and traps with equally low end rewards.
What is the DC on picking the lock on your front door compared to the DC of breaking into a bank vault? It is perfectly valid to have a DC of say 15 for a lock for a 3rd or 4th level group. It is equally valid to have a DC of 25 for the group at 11th level. The challenge of the encounter goes up, in all aspects, not just the CR level of the monsters and NPC's.
If any lock can be picked by the Artificer with his +18, why should the DM even bother having locks in the campaign at all?
So one, I have NO IDEA how we're getting to +18 lockpicking. A class would have to have expertise in thieves tools, 22 DEX AND be level 17. If the number was just thrown out to be thrown out, I get it but it's just not obtainable in 95% of games.
Nearly Impossible (DC 35) An epic feat on which legendary tales are based on. The named masters of skill come from acts such as these. Note: Insane rolls were needed before, perfect rolls are needed now. If I'm dropping a 35 DC on something, it's because you aren't doing it right as a player group. This can still be done by groups where someone with expertise has been given bardic inspiration and rolls insanely high on both pieces, but generally, I have given the players the opportunity to lower this somehow, and they didn't find it or just flat out refused to use it or aren't remembering something.
Gloves of Thievery give a +5 to pick locks (and slight of hand). And a +4 from a guidance cantrip, plus expertise, is how we are getting to +18. Technically it is 'only' +15 to +18.
Officially, Near Impossible is +30, not +35.
I always forget that Tools are technically ability checks. We've housed ruled they aren't just to prevent guidance spamming(Clerics/Druids are already strong enough, and it steps on one of the bard's limited resources). That said, RAW, it's allowed. Ditto with the gloves.
I preface before I use that table that it's not an official table, I understand that RAW, DC 30 is the top end. I just don't agree with the official table.
Man you guys are gonna freak out when you learn about the Knock spell, available at level 3. And definitely consider "force the lock" which is available to everyone at level 1.
I really don't think that by the time you can get an 18 in lockpicking that locks should really be a significant part of gameplay. The DM might not even bother putting in significant locks at all.
This is really one of those "it only matters on forums" thought experiments. Does the rogue really care about picking locks all that much, as long as someone opened them? If you have two expert lockpickers does the DM just put in encounters with 2 locks that need picking simultaneously? Is lockpicking even something that is intended to be a rogue speciality more than an artificer (whose whole class literally revolves around complex mechanical devices)?
Man you guys are gonna freak out when you learn about the Knock spell, available at level 3. And definitely consider "force the lock" which is available to everyone at level 1.
I really don't think that by the time you can get an 18 in lockpicking that locks should really be a significant part of gameplay. The DM might not even bother putting in significant locks at all.
This is really one of those "it only matters on forums" thought experiments. Does the rogue really care about picking locks all that much, as long as someone opened them? If you have two expert lockpickers does the DM just put in encounters with 2 locks that need picking simultaneously? Is lockpicking even something that is intended to be a rogue speciality more than an artificer (whose whole class literally revolves around complex mechanical devices)?
It's one of those vestiges from early games/people's early memories of the games, for sure. I think there is something to be said for very hard locks at high levels, but I agree with you. It's just something you take out of the game because the locks don't just magically all increase in difficulty. If your level 14 rogue wants to pick the lock of a common person's house, it just works. If your level 17 wizard wants to blow a 2nd level slot to open a door when they can prepare up to 9th level slots? Great. The wizard will have the drawbacks of the knock spell of course, but that's their choice.
The game evolves at higher levels and the mechanics change because of the purview/power of the party changing. This is fine, but oftentimes from the DM side we try to make those early game mechanics relevant at higher levels and it just doesn't work.
To try and keep this somewhat on topic, this is relevant to the player spotlight too. There are going to be points where all classes shine harder than others. Just have to be aware of it on a player to the player side so that we all get turns to have fun, and have to remember from a DM to player perspective when building/running content that designing things should be done with the players at your table in mind, not just "Well, you didn't have a Wizard to help counterspell everything so I'm going to lob every spell at you!".
Man you guys are gonna freak out when you learn about the Knock spell, available at level 3. And definitely consider "force the lock" which is available to everyone at level 1.
I really don't think that by the time you can get an 18 in lockpicking that locks should really be a significant part of gameplay. The DM might not even bother putting in significant locks at all.
This is really one of those "it only matters on forums" thought experiments. Does the rogue really care about picking locks all that much, as long as someone opened them? If you have two expert lockpickers does the DM just put in encounters with 2 locks that need picking simultaneously? Is lockpicking even something that is intended to be a rogue speciality more than an artificer (whose whole class literally revolves around complex mechanical devices)?
And Knock announces your presence with authority, up to 300 feet away. I am sure all the Stealth based chars appreciate such a thing. Unless your lock-picker has a buddy willing to also blow spell slot on Silence as well, Knock is terrible for any kind of quiet work.
And Knock takes a third level spell slot. You only get three of those per long rest and I'd sure like to do something else with that spell slot. Barbarian, could you help us open this chest? The hinges appear to be a bit ... rusty. [Ka-Thump!!] Thanks.
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Man you guys are gonna freak out when you learn about the Knock spell, available at level 3. And definitely consider "force the lock" which is available to everyone at level 1.
I really don't think that by the time you can get an 18 in lockpicking that locks should really be a significant part of gameplay. The DM might not even bother putting in significant locks at all.
This is really one of those "it only matters on forums" thought experiments. Does the rogue really care about picking locks all that much, as long as someone opened them? If you have two expert lockpickers does the DM just put in encounters with 2 locks that need picking simultaneously? Is lockpicking even something that is intended to be a rogue speciality more than an artificer (whose whole class literally revolves around complex mechanical devices)?
BTW, Knock is level 2, not 3. And it is still a terrible thing to use in any kind of stealth situation.
Man you guys are gonna freak out when you learn about the Knock spell, available at level 3. And definitely consider "force the lock" which is available to everyone at level 1.
I really don't think that by the time you can get an 18 in lockpicking that locks should really be a significant part of gameplay. The DM might not even bother putting in significant locks at all.
This is really one of those "it only matters on forums" thought experiments. Does the rogue really care about picking locks all that much, as long as someone opened them? If you have two expert lockpickers does the DM just put in encounters with 2 locks that need picking simultaneously? Is lockpicking even something that is intended to be a rogue speciality more than an artificer (whose whole class literally revolves around complex mechanical devices)?
BTW, Knock is level 2, not 3. And it is still a terrible thing to use in any kind of stealth situation.
They meant its available at character level 3. I understand any debate that might transpire about multiclassing, let’s just assume that is what they meant.
doesn't expertise give +12 with thieves tools? +6 is the biggest modifier before expertise and if it's doubled it should be 12? 12 + 5 is 17, +4 from guidance is 21 not +18.
I don't see where either +15 or + 18 comes from tbh?
Did you actually bother to read the thread before posting?
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So one, I have NO IDEA how we're getting to +18 lockpicking. A class would have to have expertise in thieves tools, 22 DEX AND be level 17. If the number was just thrown out to be thrown out, I get it but it's just not obtainable in 95% of games.
Going back to stealing thunder, if the artificer wants to attempt the lock? Let them. They obviously invested in the character, and if there's a rogue in the party? If I were them I'd just sit back and scoff when the guy who built their artificer character to do this fails and I just walk up and go and roll a nat 1 and look at the artificer and go "23", assuming we're level 11 or higher.
Speaking to trap/disarm DCs, it depends on what we're doing, right. I don't like arbitrarily raising DCs just because the party is increasing in power. I just take that piece of the game out of the equation, so now when a potential fail does come up there's gravity to it. Telling the rogue "Roll" at level 12 to roll with reliable talent teaches the party it's an oh shit moment, and the minute I say roll, I don't allow "give bardic inspiration" or any such intervention unless the ability says it can happen after the fact. Divination Wizard of course can go HEY I USE A PORTENT ROLL if they have one and before the die is rolled. DM Inspiration of course allows the reroll, and if they use that, then I'll allow the party to jump in too. If someone is going to blow a valuable resource like that, obviously they want it to work, I want the party to feel the gravity of the resources is successful.
5th edition's problem is that the game is very obviously designed below level 13. It just doesn't scale into the very high end well, because all puzzles at that point can be solved by character sheets, and not players being creative. Movement isn't an issue with teleporting around the globe, escaping hard puzzles is easy with knock, dispel magic, etc. That being said, I don't want to create stupid high DCs just to have failures on rolls because the reality who, who the **** Is making those things? If you have a wizard who can make a DC 35 check as the big bad evil guy, why the hell isn't the world destroyed yet. If there's a random small-town bank with a DC 35 lock on its vault, it better be hiding some god-tier item because if not, HOW did that town afford that lock?
I don't use the table for example DCs that is given in whichever book its given, I use this one from a reddit thread that's like six years old:
Trivial (DC 0) A task that is so easy that isn't worth a check. An adventurer can almost always succeed automatically.
Very Easy (DC 5) Requires a minimum level of competence or a bit of luck to accomplish.
Easy (DC 10) Requires a minimum level of competence or a bit of luck to accomplish.
Moderate (DC 15) Requires a bit more competence to accomplish. Can be completed more often than not by a character with both natural aptitude and specialized training.
Hard (DC 20) Include anything beyond the capabilities of the average person without aid or exceptional talent. Even with a bit of training and skill you still need some luck to pull it off (or maybe some specialized training). Note: This is where things start to be out of the reach by standard fluff NPCs/Commoners. This is still a hard check for any class without expertise as well, but with expertise, it becomes a lot more achievable. Level 13 characters without expertise, assuming no magical bonuses and a 20 in a stat are going to fail this half the time.
Very Hard (DC 25) Achievable only by especially talented individuals. Nobody else should even bother trying. Note: This is where expertise is going to start paying off. This is also where I will start including things that if the player asks the right questions, or maybe they've found something earlier that gives a hint, that I will lower the DC from Very Hard to Hard. Even high level rogues with reliable talent need to roll here unless they are 13th or higher.
Formidable (DC 30) Achievable only by the most trained, experienced, and talented individuals, and they probably still need help to pull it off. Note: Help means teamwork. No amount of character sheets are going to solve this without immense help, prior knowledge to lower the DC somehow or just insane rolls.
Nearly Impossible (DC 35) An epic feat on which legendary tales are based on. The named masters of skill come from acts such as these. Note: Insane rolls were needed before, perfect rolls are needed now. If I'm dropping a 35 DC on something, it's because you aren't doing it right as a player group. This can still be done by groups where someone with expertise has been given bardic inspiration and rolls insanely high on both pieces, but generally, I have given the players the opportunity to lower this somehow, and they didn't find it or just flat out refused to use it or aren't remembering something.
Godly (DC 40) Can't be done without assistance unless you're basically a demigod. - This isn't going to be done by characters unless you're 17+. Period. Assuming 20 stats, expertise and no magic items that boost the skill, the highest you can roll at level 17 is a 37. Bardic Inspiration at this level by an equivalent bard is a D12, so now the highest you can roll is a 49. If my table rolls a 49? You know what? You get in. I don't care what it is, you did it. You might not SURVIVE what's inside but you get in.
doesn't expertise give +12 with thieves tools? +6 is the biggest modifier before expertise and if it's doubled it should be 12? 12 + 5 is 17, +4 from guidance is 21 not +18.
I don't see where either +15 or + 18 comes from tbh?
I always forget that Tools are technically ability checks. We've housed ruled they aren't just to prevent guidance spamming(Clerics/Druids are already strong enough, and it steps on one of the bard's limited resources). That said, RAW, it's allowed. Ditto with the gloves.
I preface before I use that table that it's not an official table, I understand that RAW, DC 30 is the top end. I just don't agree with the official table.
Thanks for the clarifying points!
Man you guys are gonna freak out when you learn about the Knock spell, available at level 3. And definitely consider "force the lock" which is available to everyone at level 1.
I really don't think that by the time you can get an 18 in lockpicking that locks should really be a significant part of gameplay. The DM might not even bother putting in significant locks at all.
This is really one of those "it only matters on forums" thought experiments. Does the rogue really care about picking locks all that much, as long as someone opened them? If you have two expert lockpickers does the DM just put in encounters with 2 locks that need picking simultaneously? Is lockpicking even something that is intended to be a rogue speciality more than an artificer (whose whole class literally revolves around complex mechanical devices)?
It's one of those vestiges from early games/people's early memories of the games, for sure. I think there is something to be said for very hard locks at high levels, but I agree with you. It's just something you take out of the game because the locks don't just magically all increase in difficulty. If your level 14 rogue wants to pick the lock of a common person's house, it just works. If your level 17 wizard wants to blow a 2nd level slot to open a door when they can prepare up to 9th level slots? Great. The wizard will have the drawbacks of the knock spell of course, but that's their choice.
The game evolves at higher levels and the mechanics change because of the purview/power of the party changing. This is fine, but oftentimes from the DM side we try to make those early game mechanics relevant at higher levels and it just doesn't work.
To try and keep this somewhat on topic, this is relevant to the player spotlight too. There are going to be points where all classes shine harder than others. Just have to be aware of it on a player to the player side so that we all get turns to have fun, and have to remember from a DM to player perspective when building/running content that designing things should be done with the players at your table in mind, not just "Well, you didn't have a Wizard to help counterspell everything so I'm going to lob every spell at you!".
And Knock announces your presence with authority, up to 300 feet away. I am sure all the Stealth based chars appreciate such a thing. Unless your lock-picker has a buddy willing to also blow spell slot on Silence as well, Knock is terrible for any kind of quiet work.
And Knock takes a third level spell slot. You only get three of those per long rest and I'd sure like to do something else with that spell slot. Barbarian, could you help us open this chest? The hinges appear to be a bit ... rusty. [Ka-Thump!!] Thanks.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
BTW, Knock is level 2, not 3. And it is still a terrible thing to use in any kind of stealth situation.
They meant its available at character level 3. I understand any debate that might transpire about multiclassing, let’s just assume that is what they meant.
Did you actually bother to read the thread before posting?