Prices in real world Earth are largely arbitrary and often nonsensical so I’m not sure why D&D would be any different. As an example: the price of oil is artificially high relative to its supply. The price of food is artificially low relative to its utility. Diamonds cost more than gas or food and are insanely expensive relative to their supply and especially their utility. Is a diamond really more valuable than a loaf of bread or litre of gas? Absolutely not, to the overwhelming majority of people, but that is not reflected by the price of these things. And regarding the price of gas, if I drive 10 minutes down the highway, I can pay anywhere from 3-7 cents less per litre of fuel than I do at the gas station around the corner from my home. I’d save money by travelling 10 minutes but, most times, I just pay for the convenience and fuel up close to home despite the fact that the gas itself is exactly the same.
I’m not saying D&D poison or elephants are analogous to diamonds, gas or food; I’m saying the product itself doesn’t determine its value. A single global price does not exist for any good or service in real world Earth. Pricing in capitalism is based on getting people to pay you as much as possible in return for the smallest investment on your part and this equation is immensely variable. Your very notion that there is a single price for anything is a flawed premise in capitalism. It may be annoying to be told that prices in the books are guidelines rather than decrees but this is actually the very closest, most accurate depiction of capitalism—where prices change from moment to moment based on a range of factors that could be something as capricious as whether you remind the vendor of their favourite aunt or that jerk that bullied them in middle school—you could possibly roleplay.
Pricing is not very arbitrary. Pricing can be somewhat arbitrary if you are talking about pricing something at $0.99 instead of at $1.00. However a product's average price or its general price range are not arbitrary. If a seller wants to price a used car at $2,995 instead of $3,000, that is kind of arbitrary, but a used car costing around that price range is not arbitrary, as that is what the market will buy/sell a product for. For another example, crude oil costing $60 per barrel (or whatever its current price) is not arbitrary, as that is an average of all the oil sold that day or time period, not necessarily the actual price that an individual buyer will pay. The price can fluctuate from second to second on the commodities market so an oil buyer may pay a bit more or less depending on other factors. Price of food is not exactly low in America either, as that perception is relative to your economic background, but for the average American, food is pretty cheap due in part to government subsidies and plentiful supply.
I do agree that the DMG's price tables are guidelines. It is easy to charge a few GPs more or knock it off if the table as whole really likes to roleplay buying and selling. But for most tables, I think GMs and players are happy to just resort to using the guideline prices for ease of play and not think too much about it if that is not part of the game that they enjoy exploring.
I would keep 200 for a work elephant, but seeing that it roughly x5 to go from a riding horse to a (trained) warhorse, I would apply the same factor here and price a war elephant at 1000 gp, one that would not panic and continue to order his cormac and attack even in the midst of a magical fight.
But, to prevent problems, I would also require that some acclimatation and training be done between rider/driver and mount, etc.
Yeah, that makes sense.
I do agree that mounted combat would be more interesting with a bit more rules, and panicking the mounts of riders is decent way of getting them off their mounts, although I guess most tables prefer something more simple. Personally, I think I will stick with no panic for animals for now, but I think that is a fun mechanic to incorporate if my players want to use it.
Prices in real world Earth are largely arbitrary and often nonsensical so I’m not sure why D&D would be any different. As an example: the price of oil is artificially high relative to its supply. The price of food is artificially low relative to its utility. Diamonds cost more than gas or food and are insanely expensive relative to their supply and especially their utility. Is a diamond really more valuable than a loaf of bread or litre of gas? Absolutely not, to the overwhelming majority of people, but that is not reflected by the price of these things. And regarding the price of gas, if I drive 10 minutes down the highway, I can pay anywhere from 3-7 cents less per litre of fuel than I do at the gas station around the corner from my home. I’d save money by travelling 10 minutes but, most times, I just pay for the convenience and fuel up close to home despite the fact that the gas itself is exactly the same.
I’m not saying D&D poison or elephants are analogous to diamonds, gas or food; I’m saying the product itself doesn’t determine its value. A single global price does not exist for any good or service in real world Earth. Pricing in capitalism is based on getting people to pay you as much as possible in return for the smallest investment on your part and this equation is immensely variable. Your very notion that there is a single price for anything is a flawed premise in capitalism. It may be annoying to be told that prices in the books are guidelines rather than decrees but this is actually the very closest, most accurate depiction of capitalism—where prices change from moment to moment based on a range of factors that could be something as capricious as whether you remind the vendor of their favourite aunt or that jerk that bullied them in middle school—you could possibly roleplay.
Pricing is not very arbitrary. Pricing can be somewhat arbitrary if you are talking about pricing something at $0.99 instead of at $1.00. However a product's average price or its general price range are not arbitrary. If a seller wants to price a used car at $2,995 instead of $3,000, that is kind of arbitrary, but a used car costing around that price range is not arbitrary, as that is what the market will buy/sell a product for. For another example, crude oil costing $60 per barrel (or whatever its current price) is not arbitrary, as that is an average of all the oil sold that day or time period, not necessarily the actual price that an individual buyer will pay. The price can fluctuate from second to second on the commodities market so an oil buyer may pay a bit more or less depending on other factors. Price of food is not exactly low in America either, as that perception is relative to your economic background, but for the average American, food is pretty cheap due in part to government subsidies and plentiful supply.
I do agree that the DMG's price tables are guidelines. It is easy to charge a few GPs more or knock it off if the table as whole really likes to roleplay buying and selling. But for most tables, I think GMs and players are happy to just resort to using the guideline prices for ease of play and not think too much about it if that is not part of the game that they enjoy exploring.
It’s interesting that you claim pricing is not arbitrary when I specifically chose examples of products where the pricing is artificially maintained. Diamonds and oil are both stockpiled to escalate prices. This is why the US gets mad at OPEC periodically for “flooding the market”. And, as you mention, the price of food is lower than costs should reflect in the western world due to government subsidies and interventions. The price of these things is very much arbitrary.
I could expound further because economics is a complex subject and there are many factors that affect pricing in a market economy. But really, that is the only point I’m trying to make. There are people who dedicate their entire lives to the study of economics. People earn phD’s in and can be awarded Nobel Prizes for Economic Sciences but half a dozen pages in a gaming book should include a definitive price list for all goods and services and a perfectly logical currency system? I think that is quite a lofty expectation.
I read that a mug of ale was 2 copper and I'm fairly sure a mug of bud or miller or what it may be is two bucks so I've always thought a copper was the dollar equivalent.
For day to day regular consumable products and services, I think copper is relatively close to a modern day dollar. 4 CP for a beer and 8 SP for a night at a hotel is pretty close to the prices where I live.
Menial labor is hella cheap though, as it is only 2 SP per day. Skilled labor is 2 GP per day, and that is more in line with modern pay standards for a person with decent education and work experience.
Ubering/ride sharing/taxiing is also really cheap for 1 CP per ride, compared to like about $20 for a one way trip in my city. Feed already costs 5 CP per day, so a coach driver is not making a lot of dough compared menial laborers depending on how many rides they can give.
Prices in real world Earth are largely arbitrary and often nonsensical so I’m not sure why D&D would be any different. As an example: the price of oil is artificially high relative to its supply. The price of food is artificially low relative to its utility. Diamonds cost more than gas or food and are insanely expensive relative to their supply and especially their utility. Is a diamond really more valuable than a loaf of bread or litre of gas? Absolutely not, to the overwhelming majority of people, but that is not reflected by the price of these things. And regarding the price of gas, if I drive 10 minutes down the highway, I can pay anywhere from 3-7 cents less per litre of fuel than I do at the gas station around the corner from my home. I’d save money by travelling 10 minutes but, most times, I just pay for the convenience and fuel up close to home despite the fact that the gas itself is exactly the same.
I’m not saying D&D poison or elephants are analogous to diamonds, gas or food; I’m saying the product itself doesn’t determine its value. A single global price does not exist for any good or service in real world Earth. Pricing in capitalism is based on getting people to pay you as much as possible in return for the smallest investment on your part and this equation is immensely variable. Your very notion that there is a single price for anything is a flawed premise in capitalism. It may be annoying to be told that prices in the books are guidelines rather than decrees but this is actually the very closest, most accurate depiction of capitalism—where prices change from moment to moment based on a range of factors that could be something as capricious as whether you remind the vendor of their favourite aunt or that jerk that bullied them in middle school—you could possibly roleplay.
Pricing is not very arbitrary. Pricing can be somewhat arbitrary if you are talking about pricing something at $0.99 instead of at $1.00. However a product's average price or its general price range are not arbitrary. If a seller wants to price a used car at $2,995 instead of $3,000, that is kind of arbitrary, but a used car costing around that price range is not arbitrary, as that is what the market will buy/sell a product for. For another example, crude oil costing $60 per barrel (or whatever its current price) is not arbitrary, as that is an average of all the oil sold that day or time period, not necessarily the actual price that an individual buyer will pay. The price can fluctuate from second to second on the commodities market so an oil buyer may pay a bit more or less depending on other factors. Price of food is not exactly low in America either, as that perception is relative to your economic background, but for the average American, food is pretty cheap due in part to government subsidies and plentiful supply.
I do agree that the DMG's price tables are guidelines. It is easy to charge a few GPs more or knock it off if the table as whole really likes to roleplay buying and selling. But for most tables, I think GMs and players are happy to just resort to using the guideline prices for ease of play and not think too much about it if that is not part of the game that they enjoy exploring.
It’s interesting that you claim pricing is not arbitrary when I specifically chose examples of products where the pricing is artificially maintained. Diamonds and oil are both stockpiled to escalate prices. This is why the US gets mad at OPEC periodically for “flooding the market”. And, as you mention, the price of food is lower than costs should reflect in the western world due to government subsidies and interventions. The price of these things is very much arbitrary.
I could expound further because economics is a complex subject and there are many factors that affect pricing in a market economy. But really, that is the only point I’m trying to make. There are people who dedicate their entire lives to the study of economics. People earn phD’s in and can be awarded Nobel Prizes for Economic Sciences but half a dozen pages in a gaming book should include a definitive price list for all goods and services and a perfectly logical currency system? I think that is quite a lofty expectation.
Supply of raw natural diamonds are priced to maximize profit, and that price point is very much a non-arbitrary one.
Similarly for oil, OPEC wants high oil prices and they try to influence prices by adjusting their production to control supply, and the production goals they set are not arbitrary. However, there is a limit to their control since there are other oil producing countries out there who can take advantage of their limited production and produce more themselves.
The thing with the broken economy system in 5E can be boiled down to one thing: profit. Any healthy economy needs profits, but most basic items in the game generates little to no profit, or straight up goes in negative as most of the base items are way overpriced. A classic example is the standard healing potion that cost 25 gp to buy and 25gp to create and takes 1 day to brew, already putting you in debt if you were to have hired hands in an apothecary, and if you're the only one running the business from your own house, then you only break even. The Herbalism kit itself costs 5gp, which you'll never make back, as you're making no profit on the potions you sell. And if you're a tavern owner, you're basically in a huge amount of debt, as barley is so overpriced that technically, an alehouse would be haemorrhaging money each time they sell a mug of ale, as the cost to brew 1 mug is 7cp but they sell a mug of ale for 4cp, and that's not taking hired staff, possible taxes, upkeep, and the price of brewing the ale itself into account which takes 2 weeks to make. (1 standard keg of ale is 50 litres, it takes 1kg/2.2lb barley pr 1 litres, so 50 litres requires 50kg/110lb barley. 10lb of barley cost 7 silver/70 copper, 1 mug of ale cost 4cp, 1 mug is about 1 pint, 1 pint is half a litre, so there's 100 pints in a keg worth 770cp, sold at 400cp, not accounting for possible additional spices or added herbs nor water)
With this established, one can conclude that potionmakers, who heals the sick, only break even for charity, and ale houses, which the majority of peasants use, are bankrupt. Brilliant! These cases aren't unique in any way, as there are multiple cases where the pricing makes no sense. I know it's fantasy, but there is NO logic to the economy system and it needs an overhaul.
That's only the prices to make a healing potion for a player character, who is crafting materials for their own use without having access to a full alchemy laboratory. Presumably, NPCs can craft things cheaper because they don't need to worry about portability. Really, item crafting rules have prices that are there to prevent PCs from performing infinite money exploits.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The thing with the broken economy system in 5E can be boiled down to one thing: profit. Any healthy economy needs profits, but most basic items in the game generates little to no profit, or straight up goes in negative as most of the base items are way overpriced. A classic example is the standard healing potion that cost 25 gp to buy and 25gp to create and takes 1 day to brew, already putting you in debt if you were to have hired hands in an apothecary, and if you're the only one running the business from your own house, then you only break even. The Herbalism kit itself costs 5gp, which you'll never make back, as you're making no profit on the potions you sell. And if you're a tavern owner, you're basically in a huge amount of debt, as barley is so overpriced that technically, an alehouse would be haemorrhaging money each time they sell a mug of ale, as the cost to brew 1 mug is 7cp but they sell a mug of ale for 4cp, and that's not taking hired staff, possible taxes, upkeep, and the price of brewing the ale itself into account which takes 2 weeks to make. (1 standard keg of ale is 50 litres, it takes 1kg/2.2lb barley pr 1 litres, so 50 litres requires 50kg/110lb barley. 10lb of barley cost 7 silver/70 copper, 1 mug of ale cost 4cp, 1 mug is about 1 pint, 1 pint is half a litre, so there's 100 pints in a keg worth 770cp, sold at 400cp, not accounting for possible additional spices or added herbs nor water)
With this established, one can conclude that potionmakers, who heals the sick, only break even for charity, and ale houses, which the majority of peasants use, are bankrupt. Brilliant! These cases aren't unique in any way, as there are multiple cases where the pricing makes no sense. I know it's fantasy, but there is NO logic to the economy system and it needs an overhaul.
Trade goods prices weren't worked out in that kind of detail when they wrote the tables, they were just ballpark values to give some context to what copper, silver, and gold are worth in practical terms. I also have no idea where you're getting the value of barley from, it doesn't appear in the 2014 PHB and I don't see any entries for trade good values in the DMG.
Also, for the mug of ale, it's bold of you to assume they're not watering the drinks~
bhthephoenix I don't think converting the in-game currency to real world money, let alone dollars, can be done in any logical nor reasonable way, as the in-game economy is, tough nonsensical, stable as written, which can't be said for the real world. I think it's better to base it on the value of basic items. You can't buy much for 1cp as it's the lowest possible form of currency, but you can buy quite a few things for one dollar, -or at least you could a few years ago, and I'm sure you can buy more than one candle irl for 1 dollar. If you have to convert it, you have to take several things into account, like rarity, cost of production etc of basic common items in the specific setting and the quality of said item, though even applying this logic to the in-game items leaves *much* to be desired.
As an example with your candle; today we have candles galore and most are fairly cheap and made from an abundance of different materials, but back in medieval times you effectively only had fat candles, "rushlights", or wax candles, and wax was pricy. So pricy that common peasants couldn't afford them on the regular, as they required bee-keeping and a much longer process to produce than a rushlight. A rushlight could effectively be made by anybody but had the downside of burning for a much shorter time, stinking up the house, and producing a lot of soot, hence why higher society preferred wax candles, as they burned with a pure flame and for a longer time, and came with the upside of smelling like honey.
This is what I mean by the in-game currency and pricing makes no sense, as it's seemingly based on real life medieval circumstances most of the time, but then at the same time, it has a candle, presumably a bee's wax candle, or even a tallow candle, be worth less than a mug of ale, which was the most common and cheapest safe drink, is simply illogical pricing. So comparing in-game currency to modern world currency will make little to no sense in pricing most of the time. A lot of times, it seems that they never took into account the rarity let alone the process of production of said items when they put a price tag on it.
Pricing is not very arbitrary. Pricing can be somewhat arbitrary if you are talking about pricing something at $0.99 instead of at $1.00. However a product's average price or its general price range are not arbitrary. If a seller wants to price a used car at $2,995 instead of $3,000, that is kind of arbitrary, but a used car costing around that price range is not arbitrary, as that is what the market will buy/sell a product for. For another example, crude oil costing $60 per barrel (or whatever its current price) is not arbitrary, as that is an average of all the oil sold that day or time period, not necessarily the actual price that an individual buyer will pay. The price can fluctuate from second to second on the commodities market so an oil buyer may pay a bit more or less depending on other factors. Price of food is not exactly low in America either, as that perception is relative to your economic background, but for the average American, food is pretty cheap due in part to government subsidies and plentiful supply.
I do agree that the DMG's price tables are guidelines. It is easy to charge a few GPs more or knock it off if the table as whole really likes to roleplay buying and selling. But for most tables, I think GMs and players are happy to just resort to using the guideline prices for ease of play and not think too much about it if that is not part of the game that they enjoy exploring.
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Yeah, that makes sense.
I do agree that mounted combat would be more interesting with a bit more rules, and panicking the mounts of riders is decent way of getting them off their mounts, although I guess most tables prefer something more simple. Personally, I think I will stick with no panic for animals for now, but I think that is a fun mechanic to incorporate if my players want to use it.
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Running the Game by Matt Colville; Introduction: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-YZvLUXcR8 >
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It’s interesting that you claim pricing is not arbitrary when I specifically chose examples of products where the pricing is artificially maintained. Diamonds and oil are both stockpiled to escalate prices. This is why the US gets mad at OPEC periodically for “flooding the market”. And, as you mention, the price of food is lower than costs should reflect in the western world due to government subsidies and interventions. The price of these things is very much arbitrary.
I could expound further because economics is a complex subject and there are many factors that affect pricing in a market economy. But really, that is the only point I’m trying to make. There are people who dedicate their entire lives to the study of economics. People earn phD’s in and can be awarded Nobel Prizes for Economic Sciences but half a dozen pages in a gaming book should include a definitive price list for all goods and services and a perfectly logical currency system? I think that is quite a lofty expectation.
For day to day regular consumable products and services, I think copper is relatively close to a modern day dollar. 4 CP for a beer and 8 SP for a night at a hotel is pretty close to the prices where I live.
Menial labor is hella cheap though, as it is only 2 SP per day. Skilled labor is 2 GP per day, and that is more in line with modern pay standards for a person with decent education and work experience.
Ubering/ride sharing/taxiing is also really cheap for 1 CP per ride, compared to like about $20 for a one way trip in my city. Feed already costs 5 CP per day, so a coach driver is not making a lot of dough compared menial laborers depending on how many rides they can give.
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Running the Game by Matt Colville; Introduction: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-YZvLUXcR8 >
D&D with High School Students by Bill Allen; Season 1 Episode 1: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52NJTUDokyk&t >
Supply of raw natural diamonds are priced to maximize profit, and that price point is very much a non-arbitrary one.
Similarly for oil, OPEC wants high oil prices and they try to influence prices by adjusting their production to control supply, and the production goals they set are not arbitrary. However, there is a limit to their control since there are other oil producing countries out there who can take advantage of their limited production and produce more themselves.
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Running the Game by Matt Colville; Introduction: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-YZvLUXcR8 >
D&D with High School Students by Bill Allen; Season 1 Episode 1: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52NJTUDokyk&t >
The thing with the broken economy system in 5E can be boiled down to one thing: profit.
Any healthy economy needs profits, but most basic items in the game generates little to no profit, or straight up goes in negative as most of the base items are way overpriced.
A classic example is the standard healing potion that cost 25 gp to buy and 25gp to create and takes 1 day to brew, already putting you in debt if you were to have hired hands in an apothecary, and if you're the only one running the business from your own house, then you only break even. The Herbalism kit itself costs 5gp, which you'll never make back, as you're making no profit on the potions you sell.
And if you're a tavern owner, you're basically in a huge amount of debt, as barley is so overpriced that technically, an alehouse would be haemorrhaging money each time they sell a mug of ale, as the cost to brew 1 mug is 7cp but they sell a mug of ale for 4cp, and that's not taking hired staff, possible taxes, upkeep, and the price of brewing the ale itself into account which takes 2 weeks to make.
(1 standard keg of ale is 50 litres, it takes 1kg/2.2lb barley pr 1 litres, so 50 litres requires 50kg/110lb barley. 10lb of barley cost 7 silver/70 copper, 1 mug of ale cost 4cp, 1 mug is about 1 pint, 1 pint is half a litre, so there's 100 pints in a keg worth 770cp, sold at 400cp, not accounting for possible additional spices or added herbs nor water)
With this established, one can conclude that potionmakers, who heals the sick, only break even for charity, and ale houses, which the majority of peasants use, are bankrupt. Brilliant!
These cases aren't unique in any way, as there are multiple cases where the pricing makes no sense.
I know it's fantasy, but there is NO logic to the economy system and it needs an overhaul.
That's only the prices to make a healing potion for a player character, who is crafting materials for their own use without having access to a full alchemy laboratory. Presumably, NPCs can craft things cheaper because they don't need to worry about portability. Really, item crafting rules have prices that are there to prevent PCs from performing infinite money exploits.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
So if a candle cost 1cp that means 1cp is about equivalent to $1. Which makes silver $10 and 1 gold about $100.
Trade goods prices weren't worked out in that kind of detail when they wrote the tables, they were just ballpark values to give some context to what copper, silver, and gold are worth in practical terms. I also have no idea where you're getting the value of barley from, it doesn't appear in the 2014 PHB and I don't see any entries for trade good values in the DMG.
Also, for the mug of ale, it's bold of you to assume they're not watering the drinks~
bhthephoenix
I don't think converting the in-game currency to real world money, let alone dollars, can be done in any logical nor reasonable way, as the in-game economy is, tough nonsensical, stable as written, which can't be said for the real world. I think it's better to base it on the value of basic items. You can't buy much for 1cp as it's the lowest possible form of currency, but you can buy quite a few things for one dollar, -or at least you could a few years ago, and I'm sure you can buy more than one candle irl for 1 dollar.
If you have to convert it, you have to take several things into account, like rarity, cost of production etc of basic common items in the specific setting and the quality of said item, though even applying this logic to the in-game items leaves *much* to be desired.
As an example with your candle; today we have candles galore and most are fairly cheap and made from an abundance of different materials, but back in medieval times you effectively only had fat candles, "rushlights", or wax candles, and wax was pricy. So pricy that common peasants couldn't afford them on the regular, as they required bee-keeping and a much longer process to produce than a rushlight. A rushlight could effectively be made by anybody but had the downside of burning for a much shorter time, stinking up the house, and producing a lot of soot, hence why higher society preferred wax candles, as they burned with a pure flame and for a longer time, and came with the upside of smelling like honey.
This is what I mean by the in-game currency and pricing makes no sense, as it's seemingly based on real life medieval circumstances most of the time, but then at the same time, it has a candle, presumably a bee's wax candle, or even a tallow candle, be worth less than a mug of ale, which was the most common and cheapest safe drink, is simply illogical pricing.
So comparing in-game currency to modern world currency will make little to no sense in pricing most of the time.
A lot of times, it seems that they never took into account the rarity let alone the process of production of said items when they put a price tag on it.
In game pricing never made sense. Gygax said it best is the prices are for those wealthy adventurers. Not the locals.
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