I will simply point out that The Sacred Rules themselves state "if the players attempt something not covered by the rules of the game, it's up to the DM to make a ruling and determine how that attempted action works within the narrative of the game."
In this case, Vince hit upon a good, solid DM ruling - weaponized Dust of Dryness has the same effect as Tidal Wave unless the specific situation of its use merits alternative treatment. There's no need to punish the players for trying to be creative and use their tools to the maximum extent they can - that's just good play. The way they choose to try and do so determines whether they succeed or not, and how easy it is for them to do so, but the attempt itself should be encouraged rather than scourged.
Frankly? An enemy hitting the party with a Tidal Wave arrow would be a damn cool way of highlighting that enemy's resources and inventiveness, as well as signaling to the party that they should be matching suit and finding cool ways to use their own items. Heh, just imagine the "wait WHAT" reaction when you narrate an arrow striking your frontline fighter's plate armor with an uncharacteristic crrrnch before a vast cube of water explodes with a deep, resounding thunderclap in his space, battering him mercilessly and potentially knocking him prone. Great way to get a party to respect the threat a single powerful archer can pose.
And the other side of the coin is that a fairly high level Wizard, Druid, or Storm Sorcerer, or any BBEG, that the DM is running might, or more likely, WILL use the same kind of concepts against the players in the future, with umpteen physical effects suddenly gaining power where before they were not detailed or were innocuous. The DM can throw 3 Archers at the group, each equipped with such a weapon. And the group's Actions could well be nullified, or heavily nerfed, for each round the DM has an Archer fire off one of these arrows. Doubt the players would be too thrilled with that.
A good D&D game is one where is mutual respect and trust between the player and DM. The players have to trust the DM will provide them a game with challenges and entertainment within the existing rules. If the players feel the need to step outside those rules into 'rule of cool land', then the players must accept the DM will do the same to maintain a fair challenge.
If the area is fairly open, anyone within 30ft of the bead must make a strength save (maybe DC10, nothing too dificult) or be knocked prone and moved 1d6 ft away from where the bead broke.
Now you're just being silly. By the time the water reaches 10 feet (or so) the water is only going to be 2 feet high. At 30 feet, it will be inches high at best. How is a flow of water 2 inches high going to knock somebody prone and push them 6 feet?
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Pro Player Tip: find a way to boil the fifteen-foot cube of water, first. That will require an absolute smegload of thermal energy, but you may be able to win a debate with the DM over whether the water the Dust absorbs retains its properties when absorbed - such as temperature. Dumping a fifteen-foot cube of boiling water on your enemies is a whole new ball game. If the players found a way to pull off boiling several tons of water prior to Dusting it, I'd be willing to let them have some extra fire damage on the blast when they eventually release it. Not, like, "have a free Fireball" levels of extra fire damage, but considering this is effectively a magical AoE attack that any old martial guy with sling proficiency can execute? Tidal Wave + a few d6 fire damage is pretty damn good from a single Attack action.
Now THAT is interesting.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
The bursting pool analogy doesn't hold. The majority show directed water flow from a single breach point not water flow in every direction. Even then the effect isn't very big. Closest is at 2:45 with water in every direction.
OT: wtf the guy with a chainsaw near his family/friends.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
If the area is fairly open, anyone within 30ft of the bead must make a strength save (maybe DC10, nothing too dificult) or be knocked prone and moved 1d6 ft away from where the bead broke.
Now you're just being silly. By the time the water reaches 10 feet (or so) the water is only going to be 2 feet high. At 30 feet, it will be inches high at best. How is a flow of water 2 inches high going to knock somebody prone and push them 6 feet?
I had not done the math, but now you got me thinking
3375 cu feet is the baseline. Also assume everything aligns in vertical planes, which it would most assuredly not.
Radius of 10 feet = 100 * Pi = approx 314 sq feet. That translates into 10 plus feet high. That would indeed move someone.
Radius of 30 feet = 1/9th of that, so a call it 13 inches. Still, enough to knock someone prone. I have waded enough rivers while fishing to respect the flow of water, even 12 inches thick.
But, as stated before, moving into rule of cool world alters dramatically a ton of spells, and that IS silly, unless the DM is a masochist and had unlimited time.
I think, as a DM, there is another solution I would entertain. I still prefer "you are all dead from the explosive force", but if a player came to me with all the REAL WORLD physics of a 15 foot cube of water suddenly coming into existence, and detailed how it would spread out, using Earth gravity, various co-efficients of friction (water moves differently over smooth and rough terrain), with all the differential equations correctly solved for to tell me how many Newtons of force exposure to said water would be at 20, and 30 feet, THEN I would allow it.
Yeah..that is how rule of cool should work. Player solves the real world equations for the physics of what they want, and then, once I am convinced they are correct, they can use them in-game.
The bursting pool analogy doesn't hold. The majority show directed water flow from a single breach point not water flow in every direction. Even then the effect isn't very big. Closest is at 2:45 with water in every direction.
OT: wtf the guy with a chainsaw near his family/friends.
No, but that video proves that many people are too stupid to be part of society.
(1) Notice how full the pool is when people fall over. There is plenty of water to knock over several more people simultaneously. Flood waters only need to be a couple inches deep to drag people down stream.
(2) 4 times as much water directly expands the effective area of such a situation.
(3) Elevating a pool of water above ground increases its potential energy. The top 10~15 feet of water is going to hit a lot harder than the bottom 0~5.
(4) Terrain matters. If the ground is soft, then the person can have more reliable footing. If it's harder, then they won't.
(5) Most of the people in the videos expect the flood to happen. Being caught by surprise/off-balance dramatically changes the outcome.
All of this is just over complicating an issue that very few people are likely to have in their game.
This video of a pool collapsing into a parking garage is probably the best example of what would happen if a 5' x 15' x 15' block of water suddenly appeared from nowhere 10ft above the ground.
There are no people or medium sized objects to use for reference, but if you look closely you may see the car shift slightly at about 15~20ft away.
(1) Notice how full the pool is when people fall over. There is plenty of water to knock over several more people simultaneously. Flood waters only need to be a couple inches deep to drag people down stream.
(2) 4 times as much water directly expands the effective area of such a situation.
(3) Elevating a pool of water above ground increases its potential energy. The top 10~15 feet of water is going to hit a lot harder than the bottom 0~5.
(4) Terrain matters. If the ground is soft, then the person can have more reliable footing. If it's harder, then they won't.
(5) Most of the people in the videos expect the flood to happen. Being caught by surprise/off-balance dramatically changes the outcome.
All of this is just over complicating an issue that very few people are likely to have in their game.
So work out the equations for us, including the fluid dynamics, and then we can discuss using it in a game. Or, explain how this differs from a player dropping from 100 feet, brushing themselves off, and carrying on.
Precisely, which real world examples do we incorporate into D&D, and which ones do we leave out?
So work out the equations for us, including the fluid dynamics, and then we can discuss using it in a game. Or, explain how this differs from a player dropping from 100 feet, brushing themselves off, and carrying on.
Precisely, which real world examples do we incorporate into D&D, and which ones do we leave out?
If I didn't make it clear in my original posts, (or if you simply didn't read them), I am by no means an advocate for using the Dust of Dryness in this way. My personal "calculations" are entirely based off of item rarity, number of charges, and comparable magic items.
However, if someone is going to debate the impact of an item like this in the real world, there are plenty of examples to work with. The "above ground pool" and "collapsing garage pool" examples are enough to justify some kind of combat value.
Working out equations is old school. There are plenty of 3D physics engines available, if you really want to simulate this scenario. Once the ML and optics modelling software stop hogging my GPU, I might entertain the notion of modelling this scenario as well, but I really don't care.
(1) Notice how full the pool is when people fall over. There is plenty of water to knock over several more people simultaneously. Flood waters only need to be a couple inches deep to drag people down stream.
(2) 4 times as much water directly expands the effective area of such a situation.
(3) Elevating a pool of water above ground increases its potential energy. The top 10~15 feet of water is going to hit a lot harder than the bottom 0~5.
(4) Terrain matters. If the ground is soft, then the person can have more reliable footing. If it's harder, then they won't.
(5) Most of the people in the videos expect the flood to happen. Being caught by surprise/off-balance dramatically changes the outcome.
All of this is just over complicating an issue that very few people are likely to have in their game.
So work out the equations for us, including the fluid dynamics, and then we can discuss using it in a game. Or, explain how this differs from a player dropping from 100 feet, brushing themselves off, and carrying on.
Precisely, which real world examples do we incorporate into D&D, and which ones do we leave out?
Another straw man. No one is saying this should be instantly fatal, or that it should do 10d6 damage (equivalent to that 100' fall).
People do fall in game though and do take damage from falling. Falling damage is not 'left out' as an aspect of physics. Nor does everything or anything have to be worked out completely to estimate it or include it. Why does the water have to be worked out perfectly and in fine detail when the other examples you cite are not?
If there are pages on what the rule of cool effects of Dust of Dryness should be when 3375 cu feet of water are suddenly released, then the proper physics of falling are in play as well. So is anything that has a physical effect.
Players like to pick and choose when Newtonian mechanics kick in. I say if it is done once, then it is done in all physical aspects of the game. If the water that is released from Dust of Dryness can push targets over, let alone do damage to creatures and structures, then players suddenly Grappling a Large creature might be in for a surprise, as the same rules for mass and force are applied.
Players like to pick and choose when Newtonian mechanics kick in. I say if it is done once, then it is done in all physical aspects of the game.
So your position is real world physics never appear anywhere in the rules?
No, my position is when players invoke rule of cool for some kind of advantage, then all physical effects governed by those laws of physics are in play, which is a total mess for all concerned. Players can't pick and choose when to ignore the RAW, unless RAW is thrown out when all physical effects are involved. I for one don't have the inclination to overhaul every single non-magical effect and mechanic.
As a DM, in my world, I choose the most egregious examples and fix them in session 0 with House Rules. In another DM's world, unless he has detailed what is allowed and what is not, I assume if some rule has not been addressed in session 0, then that rule is in play as RAW, and rule of cool does not supercede it.
Earlier today my players found some Dust of Dryness. As our setting has Renaissance firearms, one of my players immediately asked if he could fire one of the pellets from a musket. I said he could try it, knowing that would give me until next week to come up with an answer.
I'm thinking this could go one of two ways: The pellet hits the target and disgorges the water, as my players are expecting, or, the pellet breaks inside the gun from the act of firing it and disgorges the water inside the gun.
For the first one, I'd probably say there's a knock back and it renders the target prone, but I'm not clear how to derive the damage.
For the second, I figure the gun is built to take an explosive internal pressure and channel it forward, since that's what a gun usually does. You've basically got a lethal-power water gun then. Still not sure how to derive that damage. Also, just out of curiosity, I got to thinking about what happens when you eject 15 cubic feet of water out of the muzzle of a gun. For ease of math, treat that as a contiguous series of 1 inch water cubes. If you put those in a line that works out to about 97200 squares on a battlemap. I don't think there's any way to tell if it has the energy to eject a line that length, since we don't have a real way to know how much force is exerted by the magical transformation. The same issue exists for trying to come up with realistic damage. I know we don't need to be realistic, but it's fun.
And than there's the issue of weather or not to allow other liquids...
So. I'ma remind folks: nowhere, in the entire original post, did Bunni ask for or suggest ignoring RAW.
The situation exists completely outside the rules. There are no rules, whatsoever, governing this interaction. RAW barely acknowledges the existence of muskets in the first place, and the Dust of Dryness does not specify what happens when the bead is broken save that the water comes back. As it is unspecified, it's up to DM discretion what happens beyond "water happens".
If a DM wants to reward the players for thinking laterally and doing the thing literally everyone thinks to do when presented with Dust of Dryness, just from a distance? Cool. Such is the DM's prerogative.
I happen to believe one of those is more likely to result in players continuing to play with a given DM than the other, but I am neither DM in this situation. I am a person on the Internet answering a question posed by a DM hoping for advice on a situation at their table they weren't sure how to resolve within the week they bought themself to resolve it. it is not my place, your place, or anyone else's place to tell Bunni how to run their game, castigate their players, or air our own personal grievances for the umpteen thousandth time. We are simply here to answer the question as best we can.
Can we stop treating this as another "If you don't follow the rules you are an Actual D&D Terrorist and should stop playing forever" rant thread?
I took the liberty of converting it into a short gif for those who don't want to bother with it. The simulation takes place in a confined space, so it's not perfect, but it's fun nonetheless. Scale is approximate for a tall human.
I took the liberty of converting it into a short gif for those who don't want to bother with it. The simulation takes place in a confined space, so it's not perfect, but it's fun nonetheless. Scale is approximate for a tall human.
I wasn't sure why I even kept coming back to this thread, but this looks fun at least.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I don't even consider this to be the Rule of Cool. This is doing what DMs are supposed to do: Filling in the blanks when the rules do not cover a situation.
In the specific rules, the Dust of Dryness only specifies that the water is released when the pellet is smashed. It does not describe what happens to the water after it has reappeared, and there is no general rule to cover this situation, so it is up to the DM to rule on what happens. The same with how it would react to being fired from a musket. Wherever the rules do not describe what happens in a situation, the DM needs to decide.
It's perfectly legitimate to rule that "the rules don't say anything else happens, so nothing does", or that they "just get wet". As a player, I would find that irritating and immersion breaking, but that doesn't mean it's an incorrect way to handle it. As a DM, I would find a simple way to model semi-realistic effects without making it too powerful, while telling the players that as an on-the-spot house rule, I reserve the right to change it if I deem it too powerful.
There are many situations where I would consider things in this manner. For instance, consider a character which needed to jump off a cliff, but realised they had a large canvas sheet and tried to use that as a parachute. There are no rules I am aware of for such an action, so I would consider how it affected the fall and the damage they received from falling. Maybe it would reduce the damage, maybe it would give a chance of stopping it altogether. It would likely take a little time to prepare. I'm not sure exactly how it would work, and it may have no effect whatsoever (depending on the character, conditions, material used etc). The point being, I would not just say "The falling rules don't say you can reduce the damage with a parachute, so you take the full damage no matter what you do".
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And the other side of the coin is that a fairly high level Wizard, Druid, or Storm Sorcerer, or any BBEG, that the DM is running might, or more likely, WILL use the same kind of concepts against the players in the future, with umpteen physical effects suddenly gaining power where before they were not detailed or were innocuous. The DM can throw 3 Archers at the group, each equipped with such a weapon. And the group's Actions could well be nullified, or heavily nerfed, for each round the DM has an Archer fire off one of these arrows. Doubt the players would be too thrilled with that.
A good D&D game is one where is mutual respect and trust between the player and DM. The players have to trust the DM will provide them a game with challenges and entertainment within the existing rules. If the players feel the need to step outside those rules into 'rule of cool land', then the players must accept the DM will do the same to maintain a fair challenge.
Now you're just being silly. By the time the water reaches 10 feet (or so) the water is only going to be 2 feet high. At 30 feet, it will be inches high at best. How is a flow of water 2 inches high going to knock somebody prone and push them 6 feet?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Now THAT is interesting.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
The bursting pool analogy doesn't hold. The majority show directed water flow from a single breach point not water flow in every direction. Even then the effect isn't very big. Closest is at 2:45 with water in every direction.
OT: wtf the guy with a chainsaw near his family/friends.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I had not done the math, but now you got me thinking
3375 cu feet is the baseline. Also assume everything aligns in vertical planes, which it would most assuredly not.
Radius of 10 feet = 100 * Pi = approx 314 sq feet. That translates into 10 plus feet high. That would indeed move someone.
Radius of 30 feet = 1/9th of that, so a call it 13 inches. Still, enough to knock someone prone. I have waded enough rivers while fishing to respect the flow of water, even 12 inches thick.
But, as stated before, moving into rule of cool world alters dramatically a ton of spells, and that IS silly, unless the DM is a masochist and had unlimited time.
I think, as a DM, there is another solution I would entertain. I still prefer "you are all dead from the explosive force", but if a player came to me with all the REAL WORLD physics of a 15 foot cube of water suddenly coming into existence, and detailed how it would spread out, using Earth gravity, various co-efficients of friction (water moves differently over smooth and rough terrain), with all the differential equations correctly solved for to tell me how many Newtons of force exposure to said water would be at 20, and 30 feet, THEN I would allow it.
Yeah..that is how rule of cool should work. Player solves the real world equations for the physics of what they want, and then, once I am convinced they are correct, they can use them in-game.
No, but that video proves that many people are too stupid to be part of society.
(1) Notice how full the pool is when people fall over. There is plenty of water to knock over several more people simultaneously. Flood waters only need to be a couple inches deep to drag people down stream.
(2) 4 times as much water directly expands the effective area of such a situation.
(3) Elevating a pool of water above ground increases its potential energy. The top 10~15 feet of water is going to hit a lot harder than the bottom 0~5.
(4) Terrain matters. If the ground is soft, then the person can have more reliable footing. If it's harder, then they won't.
(5) Most of the people in the videos expect the flood to happen. Being caught by surprise/off-balance dramatically changes the outcome.
All of this is just over complicating an issue that very few people are likely to have in their game.
This video of a pool collapsing into a parking garage is probably the best example of what would happen if a 5' x 15' x 15' block of water suddenly appeared from nowhere 10ft above the ground.
There are no people or medium sized objects to use for reference, but if you look closely you may see the car shift slightly at about 15~20ft away.
So work out the equations for us, including the fluid dynamics, and then we can discuss using it in a game. Or, explain how this differs from a player dropping from 100 feet, brushing themselves off, and carrying on.
Precisely, which real world examples do we incorporate into D&D, and which ones do we leave out?
If I didn't make it clear in my original posts, (or if you simply didn't read them), I am by no means an advocate for using the Dust of Dryness in this way. My personal "calculations" are entirely based off of item rarity, number of charges, and comparable magic items.
However, if someone is going to debate the impact of an item like this in the real world, there are plenty of examples to work with. The "above ground pool" and "collapsing garage pool" examples are enough to justify some kind of combat value.
Working out equations is old school. There are plenty of 3D physics engines available, if you really want to simulate this scenario. Once the ML and optics modelling software stop hogging my GPU, I might entertain the notion of modelling this scenario as well, but I really don't care.
If there are pages on what the rule of cool effects of Dust of Dryness should be when 3375 cu feet of water are suddenly released, then the proper physics of falling are in play as well. So is anything that has a physical effect.
Players like to pick and choose when Newtonian mechanics kick in. I say if it is done once, then it is done in all physical aspects of the game. If the water that is released from Dust of Dryness can push targets over, let alone do damage to creatures and structures, then players suddenly Grappling a Large creature might be in for a surprise, as the same rules for mass and force are applied.
So your position is real world physics never appear anywhere in the rules?
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
No, my position is when players invoke rule of cool for some kind of advantage, then all physical effects governed by those laws of physics are in play, which is a total mess for all concerned. Players can't pick and choose when to ignore the RAW, unless RAW is thrown out when all physical effects are involved. I for one don't have the inclination to overhaul every single non-magical effect and mechanic.
As a DM, in my world, I choose the most egregious examples and fix them in session 0 with House Rules. In another DM's world, unless he has detailed what is allowed and what is not, I assume if some rule has not been addressed in session 0, then that rule is in play as RAW, and rule of cool does not supercede it.
Holy ******* goddamn cod-whalloping monkey moose ****.
Lemme do something wild, here, as a reminder to certain folks:
So. I'ma remind folks: nowhere, in the entire original post, did Bunni ask for or suggest ignoring RAW.
The situation exists completely outside the rules. There are no rules, whatsoever, governing this interaction. RAW barely acknowledges the existence of muskets in the first place, and the Dust of Dryness does not specify what happens when the bead is broken save that the water comes back. As it is unspecified, it's up to DM discretion what happens beyond "water happens".
If a DM wants to reward the players for thinking laterally and doing the thing literally everyone thinks to do when presented with Dust of Dryness, just from a distance? Cool. Such is the DM's prerogative.
If a DM wants to instantly TPK his party with a hydrostatic shrapnel bomb from an exploding musket for daring to do something other than one of the actions specified in the "Actions in Combat" section of the Player's Handbook? Cool. Such is the DM's prerogative.
I happen to believe one of those is more likely to result in players continuing to play with a given DM than the other, but I am neither DM in this situation. I am a person on the Internet answering a question posed by a DM hoping for advice on a situation at their table they weren't sure how to resolve within the week they bought themself to resolve it. it is not my place, your place, or anyone else's place to tell Bunni how to run their game, castigate their players, or air our own personal grievances for the umpteen thousandth time. We are simply here to answer the question as best we can.
Can we stop treating this as another "If you don't follow the rules you are an Actual D&D Terrorist and should stop playing forever" rant thread?
Please do not contact or message me.
Found this very simple 3D Fluid Particle Simulator.
I took the liberty of converting it into a short gif for those who don't want to bother with it. The simulation takes place in a confined space, so it's not perfect, but it's fun nonetheless. Scale is approximate for a tall human.
I wasn't sure why I even kept coming back to this thread, but this looks fun at least.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I don't even consider this to be the Rule of Cool. This is doing what DMs are supposed to do: Filling in the blanks when the rules do not cover a situation.
In the specific rules, the Dust of Dryness only specifies that the water is released when the pellet is smashed. It does not describe what happens to the water after it has reappeared, and there is no general rule to cover this situation, so it is up to the DM to rule on what happens. The same with how it would react to being fired from a musket. Wherever the rules do not describe what happens in a situation, the DM needs to decide.
It's perfectly legitimate to rule that "the rules don't say anything else happens, so nothing does", or that they "just get wet". As a player, I would find that irritating and immersion breaking, but that doesn't mean it's an incorrect way to handle it. As a DM, I would find a simple way to model semi-realistic effects without making it too powerful, while telling the players that as an on-the-spot house rule, I reserve the right to change it if I deem it too powerful.
There are many situations where I would consider things in this manner. For instance, consider a character which needed to jump off a cliff, but realised they had a large canvas sheet and tried to use that as a parachute. There are no rules I am aware of for such an action, so I would consider how it affected the fall and the damage they received from falling. Maybe it would reduce the damage, maybe it would give a chance of stopping it altogether. It would likely take a little time to prepare. I'm not sure exactly how it would work, and it may have no effect whatsoever (depending on the character, conditions, material used etc). The point being, I would not just say "The falling rules don't say you can reduce the damage with a parachute, so you take the full damage no matter what you do".