A "Holy Symbol" is a pretty generic thing, and mechanically irrelevant, as long as it's not ignored entirely.
Essentially, it just has to be symbolic of their source of power. By default, that usually means the deities "official" logo, but it could just as well be the deity's favored weapon, or other recognizable token.
Give narrative justification to whatever you'd like to use and it should be fine.
The class description is pretty clear. Clerics can use holy symbols as spellcasting foci for their spells. Nothing gives them the ability to use any other kind of focus.
The class description is pretty clear. Clerics can use holy symbols as spellcasting foci for their spells. Nothing gives them the ability to use any other kind of focus.
I think the salient point is that pretty much anything can be a holy symbol. Can a cleric nick or borrow the wizard's arcane focus and use it as a holy symbol in a pinch? No, certainly not: just picking something up and declaring it's a holy symbol is a no-no. Can a cleric have a holy symbol that's basically also an arcane focus? Sure - excellent option for a cleric/wizard multiclass too. It just has to have been their holy symbol already.
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The class description is pretty clear. Clerics can use holy symbols as spellcasting foci for their spells. Nothing gives them the ability to use any other kind of focus.
I think the salient point is that pretty much anything can be a holy symbol. Can a cleric nick or borrow the wizard's arcane focus and use it as a holy symbol in a pinch? No, certainly not: just picking something up and declaring it's a holy symbol is a no-no. Can a cleric have a holy symbol that's basically also an arcane focus? Sure - excellent option for a cleric/wizard multiclass too. It just has to have been their holy symbol already.
I don’t necessarily disagree, but I was just answering the question posed :p The question isn’t “what counts as a holy symbol?” but rather “must a cleric use a holy symbol, or can they use a different kind of focus instead?”
I'm curious what the OP is getting at, including the inclusion of the questions application to druids and druidic focuses. Can a Cleric use something that is not a Holy Symbol as a spell focus? No. Can a Druid use something that is not a Druidic focus as a spell focus? No. Both Holy and Druidic focuses give the DM a wide latitude in determining what those focuses can be, so the questions begged, what sort of alternative foci is the OP thinking of?
I suppose the question could stem from what's a Cleric or Druid to do if they are stripped of their Holy Symbol or Druidic focus. Like is the equivalent of an improvised holy symbol the vampire movie cliche of making an improvised cross out of broken chair legs sufficient or must one have a cross specifically constructed as a religious icon? Of course, most D&D pantheons iconography are a little more complicated than a cross and would likely be hard to improvise. Maybe you can etch the gods rune or sigil in the dirt, and then have to stay by it for the mojo to be affirmed.
Maybe a god of dance can use the act of dance as its holy symbol? Other "action" oriented gods in that case might also have similar acts as holy symbol. If you're a war god Cleric and you're in the midst of battle, consider the juice turned on.
It's moot for me, as I treat divine magic as basically "answered prayers". Maybe some gods are petty and insistent on "their trinket" being in play, but outside of the really expensive material component oriented stuff, I'm good with just "I cast" and if they want to describe the how's of components or foci, that's fine, but as DM, I just let them cast.
There can be hard and fast rulings on this, but there doesn't have to be. A cleric's relationship with their god can be a fluid concept and how the Cleric draws their power from the god can vary as the god's relationship with the Cleric and mortals ebbs.
I can see a plater that has a wooden rod that is inscribed with their gods holy symbol and such and potential inscribed with some arcane symbols, so it can acts as a emblem/amulet and as an arcane rod but that would really depend on who the god is Azuth, Mystra are examples I can see it working.
I can see a plater that has a wooden rod that is inscribed with their gods holy symbol and such and potential inscribed with some arcane symbols, so it can acts as a emblem/amulet and as an arcane rod but that would really depend on who the god is Azuth, Mystra are examples I can see it working.
Convenient for the Wizard/Cleric too. Maybe the OP was talking about a Cleric/Druid which is why the question was framed that way.
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I believe all spellcasters can use a component pouch for material components that do not have a monetary cost and each class can use a particular focus in place of it. Clerics use holy symbols and druids use druidic foci, but if you choose a focus I don't see why you can't reflavor what it looks like.
I believe all spellcasters can use a component pouch for material components that do not have a monetary cost and each class can use a particular focus in place of it. Clerics use holy symbols and druids use druidic foci, but if you choose a focus I don't see why you can't reflavor what it looks like.
Well I think the Cleric (and to an extent Druid) can't just pick any trinket and say "this is my holy symbol" unless the PC was an emissary of a god new to the game world and was literally founding the faith in it. Rather, a holy symbol is supposed to be iconic of its god, your brandishing it while practicing magic in the name of that deity, and if its a known entity of the world's pantheon anyone familiar with the god will recognize the faith being represented (again, think of crosses and crescents and stars in IRL, not every pattern of those geometric figures represent particular faiths, but when one is representing a faith, it's pretty clear).
Druidic foci I think are more wiggly. Like literally, maybe a mole rat could be a druidic foci, as well as feathers, branches, etc.
The game doesn't give you any hard and fast rules on how religions and faiths are organized or otherwise work, so I'd say the symbolic trappings and what's a "legit" symbol and what's a heretical or blasphemous gesture is something the DM and players work out in world building.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Interesting thoughts. I had an idea for something cool: say the character wears gloves. You could have the symbol be woven in or otherwise incorporated on those gloves.
Interesting thoughts. I had an idea for something cool: say the character wears gloves. You could have the symbol be woven in or otherwise incorporated on those gloves.
Interesting thoughts. I had an idea for something cool: say the character wears gloves. You could have the symbol be woven in or otherwise incorporated on those gloves.
I believe all spellcasters can use a component pouch for material components that do not have a monetary cost and each class can use a particular focus in place of it. Clerics use holy symbols and druids use druidic foci, but if you choose a focus I don't see why you can't reflavor what it looks like.
Well I think the Cleric (and to an extent Druid) can't just pick any trinket and say "this is my holy symbol" unless the PC was an emissary of a god new to the game world and was literally founding the faith in it. Rather, a holy symbol is supposed to be iconic of its god, your brandishing it while practicing magic in the name of that deity, and if its a known entity of the world's pantheon anyone familiar with the god will recognize the faith being represented (again, think of crosses and crescents and stars in IRL, not every pattern of those geometric figures represent particular faiths, but when one is representing a faith, it's pretty clear).
Druidic foci I think are more wiggly. Like literally, maybe a mole rat could be a druidic foci, as well as feathers, branches, etc.
The game doesn't give you any hard and fast rules on how religions and faiths are organized or otherwise work, so I'd say the symbolic trappings and what's a "legit" symbol and what's a heretical or blasphemous gesture is something the DM and players work out in world building.
I can't readily think of many circumstances where it'd be an issue other than the cleric having lost it somehow, and in that case the question simply becomes: what purpose/cosequences does the DM intend this loss to have?
If you create a cleric in the character builder and take the starting gear rather than gold, you'll get four options for your holy symbol (one of which literally says "holy symbol", the others are something like amulet/emblem/reliquary iirc). It can effectively be anything, as long as it's symbolic of the cleric's faith and the divine connection to their patron god and if it's lost, it can be replaced. For some DMs buying an appropriately shaped trinket from a street hawker might suffice (official price according to the PHB is 5 gold though), or even something the cleric makes themselves with some scavenged material. For other DMs a consecration period might be in order, or the blessing of a senior priest.
So for me the whole question is a bit nebulous. A cleric can't just use anything (including things like an arcane focus) as a holy symbol. On the other hand, a cleric actually can use anything (including things like an arcane focus) as a holy symbol as long as their faith and deity are satisfied with it. The answer depends on how you interpret the question.
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From a mechanical standpoint, all a focus has to be is something you hold in your hand while casting a spell that requires material components. All classes that can cast spells at first level get a choice for a focus in their starting equipment. It doesn't matter to me what the player wants it to be. I mean, if a druid wants to have a pet frog be their druidic focus I'll allow it. As for multiclassing into another spellcasting class, as long as whatever the player wants to use costs the same as one of the examples in the adventuring gear It's fine by me. If a cleric/druid wants to tie a sprig of mistletoe to their symbol of Tymora so they can cast spells from both lists without switching foci or just spend time and the amount the new focus costs making a new hybrid one I think that's okay too. Personally I enjoy using component pouches. It's all fun and games until Pavel pulls out the bat guano and sulfur!
I'm always a fan of tattoos and hardcore body modifications. Harder to lose.
I'm not sure whether that is allowed, RAW, and also it's all very nice until the orcs decide to really deprive you of your spellcasting tattoo using not so sharp iron, probably not too clean either... :D
It's certainly less common, but I see no reason why it shouldn't work by RAW:
"To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield."
Having a tattoo or the horn of Orcus embedded in ones forehead are both things "worn", albeit semi-permanently. The most difficult part would be having it remain visible, as it couldn't be layered over anything.
I'm always a fan of tattoos and hardcore body modifications. Harder to lose.
I'm not sure whether that is allowed, RAW, and also it's all very nice until the orcs decide to really deprive you of your spellcasting tattoo using not so sharp iron, probably not too clean either... :D
It's certainly less common, but I see no reason why it shouldn't work by RAW:
"To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield."
Having a tattoo or the horn of Orcus embedded in ones forehead are both things "worn", albeit semi-permanently. The most difficult part would be having it remain visible, as it couldn't be layered over anything.
You also need a free hand to use a focus, so if the tattoo/body modification is not on the hand in question I would rule that the caster has to be touching it in order to cast the spell.
Spellcasting focusses are defined by the rules (and depend on you class), tattoos are not part of the list. And generally, it must be an item, if I'm not mistaken, I don't think a tattoo can be considered as such. I would consider it if a player asked for it, but I'm not even sure I would allow it, tbh, it's a bit too easy.
Earring? Torc around the arm? Medallion hanging from a piercing? I don't think tattoos are necessarily easier than those, and in any case the cleric has to be able to present it. Tasha's classifies (magical) tattoos as (magical) items as well.
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From a mechanical standpoint, all a focus has to be is something you hold in your hand while casting a spell that requires material components. All classes that can cast spells at first level get a choice for a focus in their starting equipment. It doesn't matter to me what the player wants it to be. I mean, if a druid wants to have a pet frog be their druidic focus I'll allow it. As for multiclassing into another spellcasting class, as long as whatever the player wants to use costs the same as one of the examples in the adventuring gear It's fine by me. If a cleric/druid wants to tie a sprig of mistletoe to their symbol of Tymora so they can cast spells from both lists without switching foci or just spend time and the amount the new focus costs making a new hybrid one I think that's okay too. Personally I enjoy using component pouches. It's all fun and games until Pavel pulls out the bat guano and sulfur!
Yes, a focus is something that you hold in your hand, but the Spellcasting classes do not simply say a focus. Holy, druidic, and arcane are limiters applied to the foci. And for Clerics its 1.) holy 2.) symbol, so it's not at all arbitrary. The word symbol means the item carries some sort of cultural meaning (usually, if we're talking an "established" deity). So if the Cleric is stripped of their holy symbol, a replacement may or may not be easily improvised or attained depending on your games theology. But sure gods that straddle druidic/clerical turf or arcane/clerical turf can have a double duty focus as long as the focus is in fact polyvalent and speaks to both magics (arcane/clerical, clerical/druidic, dunno if there's arcane/druidic god out there but I imagine maybe a druid who also does wild magic sorcery employing a common element, so to speak.
Again, I'm meh on the material trappings for Clerics in most instances since we're still basically talking about answered prayers. Some gods may insist on being brandished in the act of magical intercession but not all.
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See title. This question also applies to druids and the druidic focuses.
A "Holy Symbol" is a pretty generic thing, and mechanically irrelevant, as long as it's not ignored entirely.
Essentially, it just has to be symbolic of their source of power. By default, that usually means the deities "official" logo, but it could just as well be the deity's favored weapon, or other recognizable token.
Give narrative justification to whatever you'd like to use and it should be fine.
The class description is pretty clear. Clerics can use holy symbols as spellcasting foci for their spells. Nothing gives them the ability to use any other kind of focus.
I think the salient point is that pretty much anything can be a holy symbol. Can a cleric nick or borrow the wizard's arcane focus and use it as a holy symbol in a pinch? No, certainly not: just picking something up and declaring it's a holy symbol is a no-no. Can a cleric have a holy symbol that's basically also an arcane focus? Sure - excellent option for a cleric/wizard multiclass too. It just has to have been their holy symbol already.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I don’t necessarily disagree, but I was just answering the question posed :p The question isn’t “what counts as a holy symbol?” but rather “must a cleric use a holy symbol, or can they use a different kind of focus instead?”
I'm curious what the OP is getting at, including the inclusion of the questions application to druids and druidic focuses. Can a Cleric use something that is not a Holy Symbol as a spell focus? No. Can a Druid use something that is not a Druidic focus as a spell focus? No. Both Holy and Druidic focuses give the DM a wide latitude in determining what those focuses can be, so the questions begged, what sort of alternative foci is the OP thinking of?
I suppose the question could stem from what's a Cleric or Druid to do if they are stripped of their Holy Symbol or Druidic focus. Like is the equivalent of an improvised holy symbol the vampire movie cliche of making an improvised cross out of broken chair legs sufficient or must one have a cross specifically constructed as a religious icon? Of course, most D&D pantheons iconography are a little more complicated than a cross and would likely be hard to improvise. Maybe you can etch the gods rune or sigil in the dirt, and then have to stay by it for the mojo to be affirmed.
Maybe a god of dance can use the act of dance as its holy symbol? Other "action" oriented gods in that case might also have similar acts as holy symbol. If you're a war god Cleric and you're in the midst of battle, consider the juice turned on.
It's moot for me, as I treat divine magic as basically "answered prayers". Maybe some gods are petty and insistent on "their trinket" being in play, but outside of the really expensive material component oriented stuff, I'm good with just "I cast" and if they want to describe the how's of components or foci, that's fine, but as DM, I just let them cast.
There can be hard and fast rulings on this, but there doesn't have to be. A cleric's relationship with their god can be a fluid concept and how the Cleric draws their power from the god can vary as the god's relationship with the Cleric and mortals ebbs.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I can see a plater that has a wooden rod that is inscribed with their gods holy symbol and such and potential inscribed with some arcane symbols, so it can acts as a emblem/amulet and as an arcane rod but that would really depend on who the god is Azuth, Mystra are examples I can see it working.
Convenient for the Wizard/Cleric too. Maybe the OP was talking about a Cleric/Druid which is why the question was framed that way.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I believe all spellcasters can use a component pouch for material components that do not have a monetary cost and each class can use a particular focus in place of it. Clerics use holy symbols and druids use druidic foci, but if you choose a focus I don't see why you can't reflavor what it looks like.
Well I think the Cleric (and to an extent Druid) can't just pick any trinket and say "this is my holy symbol" unless the PC was an emissary of a god new to the game world and was literally founding the faith in it. Rather, a holy symbol is supposed to be iconic of its god, your brandishing it while practicing magic in the name of that deity, and if its a known entity of the world's pantheon anyone familiar with the god will recognize the faith being represented (again, think of crosses and crescents and stars in IRL, not every pattern of those geometric figures represent particular faiths, but when one is representing a faith, it's pretty clear).
Druidic foci I think are more wiggly. Like literally, maybe a mole rat could be a druidic foci, as well as feathers, branches, etc.
The game doesn't give you any hard and fast rules on how religions and faiths are organized or otherwise work, so I'd say the symbolic trappings and what's a "legit" symbol and what's a heretical or blasphemous gesture is something the DM and players work out in world building.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Interesting thoughts. I had an idea for something cool: say the character wears gloves. You could have the symbol be woven in or otherwise incorporated on those gloves.
Colonel Roy Mustang wants his schtick back :p
I don't know the reference....
But no. *trollface*
I'm always a fan of tattoos and hardcore body modifications. Harder to lose.
I can't readily think of many circumstances where it'd be an issue other than the cleric having lost it somehow, and in that case the question simply becomes: what purpose/cosequences does the DM intend this loss to have?
If you create a cleric in the character builder and take the starting gear rather than gold, you'll get four options for your holy symbol (one of which literally says "holy symbol", the others are something like amulet/emblem/reliquary iirc). It can effectively be anything, as long as it's symbolic of the cleric's faith and the divine connection to their patron god and if it's lost, it can be replaced. For some DMs buying an appropriately shaped trinket from a street hawker might suffice (official price according to the PHB is 5 gold though), or even something the cleric makes themselves with some scavenged material. For other DMs a consecration period might be in order, or the blessing of a senior priest.
So for me the whole question is a bit nebulous. A cleric can't just use anything (including things like an arcane focus) as a holy symbol. On the other hand, a cleric actually can use anything (including things like an arcane focus) as a holy symbol as long as their faith and deity are satisfied with it. The answer depends on how you interpret the question.
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From a mechanical standpoint, all a focus has to be is something you hold in your hand while casting a spell that requires material components. All classes that can cast spells at first level get a choice for a focus in their starting equipment. It doesn't matter to me what the player wants it to be. I mean, if a druid wants to have a pet frog be their druidic focus I'll allow it. As for multiclassing into another spellcasting class, as long as whatever the player wants to use costs the same as one of the examples in the adventuring gear It's fine by me. If a cleric/druid wants to tie a sprig of mistletoe to their symbol of Tymora so they can cast spells from both lists without switching foci or just spend time and the amount the new focus costs making a new hybrid one I think that's okay too. Personally I enjoy using component pouches. It's all fun and games until Pavel pulls out the bat guano and sulfur!
It's certainly less common, but I see no reason why it shouldn't work by RAW:
"To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield."
Having a tattoo or the horn of Orcus embedded in ones forehead are both things "worn", albeit semi-permanently. The most difficult part would be having it remain visible, as it couldn't be layered over anything.
You also need a free hand to use a focus, so if the tattoo/body modification is not on the hand in question I would rule that the caster has to be touching it in order to cast the spell.
Earring? Torc around the arm? Medallion hanging from a piercing? I don't think tattoos are necessarily easier than those, and in any case the cleric has to be able to present it. Tasha's classifies (magical) tattoos as (magical) items as well.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Yes, a focus is something that you hold in your hand, but the Spellcasting classes do not simply say a focus. Holy, druidic, and arcane are limiters applied to the foci. And for Clerics its 1.) holy 2.) symbol, so it's not at all arbitrary. The word symbol means the item carries some sort of cultural meaning (usually, if we're talking an "established" deity). So if the Cleric is stripped of their holy symbol, a replacement may or may not be easily improvised or attained depending on your games theology. But sure gods that straddle druidic/clerical turf or arcane/clerical turf can have a double duty focus as long as the focus is in fact polyvalent and speaks to both magics (arcane/clerical, clerical/druidic, dunno if there's arcane/druidic god out there but I imagine maybe a druid who also does wild magic sorcery employing a common element, so to speak.
Again, I'm meh on the material trappings for Clerics in most instances since we're still basically talking about answered prayers. Some gods may insist on being brandished in the act of magical intercession but not all.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.