If you suggest the virtual dice roller mod as an improvement you don't need to have the awkward cheater conversation. The mod would speed up the game, especially when the rolls get into the handfuls of dice for powered up spells. It also gives a history to refer to, removes any doubt of fudging and removes the chance of honest mistakes (forgetting a die, using the wrong die or just a mis-count when adding a dozen die with bonuses). It also means people don't have to buy packs of dice and really improves engagement as you can all feel the excitement of the clutch moments and feel the pain of the 1s.
Even if I play at a physical table I would always expect to use the tools available. It feels like online character sheets and dice rolls are so well done and completely free, so I would be discussing which system, rather than if we use one.
Exactly. It is fair for all, visible to all and thus avoids any suggestions of cheating. And need not be considered an accusation of anything.
I have never used online rollers. I don't understand. How can it be faster than someone simply picking up a die and rolling it?
You press the right button (if its linked to a digital character sheet), generates the random numbers needed, adds them together and adds the mods, and throws the result back at you. It takes less time than it takes for the dice to even hit the table. You dont need to add anything, you dont need to wait for the dice to stop, or to look at the dice, it takes a fraction of a second
Which is why there's a new thread on DDB roughly every month about how to roll attacks with special ammo on the character sheet, I suppose. ;-) Or applying bonus dice from Guidance or Bless. Or getting that cool item the DM came up with to work. Not saying it's not faster, but it's not perfect.
Can.
*******.
Concur.
The automatic dice roller's great - if you never stray beyond the rulebooks. The moment you try to do anything other than push a button on your character sheet - and half the buttons you can push on the sheet, to boot - the whole thing just stares at you blankly and locks up.
I do prefer Discord roller bots. Avrae is an over-complicated nonsensical mess, but a simple dice roller can let you roll in a Discord channel not any much more slowly than throwing physical dice. Get Dice Maiden going, enter !roll 1d20+1d4+5 for a Guidance skill check or the like, get your result. Same with Sneak Attack, or homebrew magic items, or anything else. A simple, no-nonsense dice bot that lets you specify an expression and get back the math is about as close to perfect as it gets for online play. I prefer throwing physical dice myself, but alas - not a thing this day and age.
Oh please, you can still do the rolls manually in Avrae. You can also do any modifiers as separate rolls and add them manually. Using real dice you would have to manually add anyway. Or you can use something like Dice Maiden with Avrae. There is no 'only one bot or tool per player' rule.
Sure you can. It's just one kind of convenience vs another though. Working on paper is easy. Adding non-official stuff to digital tools isn't, or at least not always. Manually rolling dice and adding them up can take a little bit longer, but is more pleasing in a tactile manner. No option is absolutely better in every way.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Even the extra casting of a first level spell is not evidence of a blatant cheater. Maybe they got distracted in the moment and forget to mark it off their sheet. The point is you don't actually know and should not be so adamant about it. Is it all a bit fishy? Absolutely. But you don't have the proof and are not in the DM chair to officiate over rolls. I suggest if it's making you this angry that you just walk away from the game. You clearly can't stand this person.
I really hate allowing cheaters to prosper. If I walk, I will most certainly make it clear WHY I am walking.
I completely agree with you vince. You should walk away from the game and make it clear it is because you think that one guy is cheating just because he has better luck than you. No need to throw in your disdain for people having fun differently from you though, that might be overkill.
Oh please, you can still do the rolls manually in Avrae. You can also do any modifiers as separate rolls and add them manually. Using real dice you would have to manually add anyway. Or you can use something like Dice Maiden with Avrae. There is no 'only one bot or tool per player' rule.
Sure you can. It's just one kind of convenience vs another though. Working on paper is easy. Adding non-official stuff to digital tools isn't, or at least not always. Manually rolling dice and adding them up can take a little bit longer, but is more pleasing in a tactile manner. No option is absolutely better in every way.
Again, not mutually exclusive. I use paper for very little but, as a DM, I use Excel for initiative and enemy hp tracking and use manual rolls, since the DM would normally roll behind the screen anyway. Avrae is used for most things PC with exceptions it does not cover simply handled by separate die roll(s) with Avrae and manual addition.
Hardly complex.
The problem with manual rolls for players are the risks of a lack of transparency. Someone could be accused of cheating, rightly or wrongly. Someone could be doing things incorrectly completely innocently, thinking they have it right. Either way, the DM has the right to see the math. This is more than mere convenience. It has practical utility.
While I get the practical utility, and the reduction in errors (once the software is set up and all settings correct), it is the "if it ain't broke, why fix it" mindset to deal with. I am going to have a hard sell to a bunch of old school players, and a DM who at this point thinks nothing is wrong. If was him, I would have exactly the same feeling. Like I said, this will be a very hard sell. I played in another game yesterday where the average age was under 40, and it was all "roll at home", and not a single person even had a thought of going online with rolls, including me.
Even the extra casting of a first level spell is not evidence of a blatant cheater. Maybe they got distracted in the moment and forget to mark it off their sheet. The point is you don't actually know and should not be so adamant about it. Is it all a bit fishy? Absolutely. But you don't have the proof and are not in the DM chair to officiate over rolls. I suggest if it's making you this angry that you just walk away from the game. You clearly can't stand this person.
I really hate allowing cheaters to prosper. If I walk, I will most certainly make it clear WHY I am walking.
I completely agree with you vince. You should walk away from the game and make it clear it is because you think that one guy is cheating just because he has better luck than you. No need to throw in your disdain for people having fun differently from you though, that might be overkill.
Yeah, thanks for your very helpful input. If you think cheating is a "having fun differently"....wow.
Even the extra casting of a first level spell is not evidence of a blatant cheater. Maybe they got distracted in the moment and forget to mark it off their sheet. The point is you don't actually know and should not be so adamant about it. Is it all a bit fishy? Absolutely. But you don't have the proof and are not in the DM chair to officiate over rolls. I suggest if it's making you this angry that you just walk away from the game. You clearly can't stand this person.
I really hate allowing cheaters to prosper. If I walk, I will most certainly make it clear WHY I am walking.
I completely agree with you vince. You should walk away from the game and make it clear it is because you think that one guy is cheating just because he has better luck than you. No need to throw in your disdain for people having fun differently from you though, that might be overkill.
Yeah, thanks for your very helpful input. If you think cheating is a "having fun differently"....wow.
That last part was obviously a reference to your inability to enjoy the rule of cool. Wasn't that obvious?
Even the extra casting of a first level spell is not evidence of a blatant cheater. Maybe they got distracted in the moment and forget to mark it off their sheet. The point is you don't actually know and should not be so adamant about it. Is it all a bit fishy? Absolutely. But you don't have the proof and are not in the DM chair to officiate over rolls. I suggest if it's making you this angry that you just walk away from the game. You clearly can't stand this person.
I really hate allowing cheaters to prosper. If I walk, I will most certainly make it clear WHY I am walking.
I completely agree with you vince. You should walk away from the game and make it clear it is because you think that one guy is cheating just because he has better luck than you. No need to throw in your disdain for people having fun differently from you though, that might be overkill.
And the concept of rolling in the open is unfun... why, exactly?
Why are you asking me that? I never said anything of the sorts.
Then if it really is just them having better luck, it is clear that that is all it is.
Mhm. Sure.
If you think no one ever cheats, I am sure there is somewhere out there with a bridge to sell you an a prince from some foreign land who needs your help to recover their wealth, who will reward you handsomely if you just send them money.
Can you please point to where I, or anyone else in this thread for that matter, claimed that no-one ever cheats? I can't find it.
Edit: Similarly, there are players who attempt to misuse the 'Rule of Cool' and who will whine and throw tantrums if the DM denies their 'amazing' ideas.
Absolutely. And if people don't want to play with those people they shouldn't. :)
None of that was what Lost was saying Kotath and Vince. Very clearly not. Don't put ridiculous words in peoples' mouths please. I know it's an easy way to dismiss someone, but all it does is make you look bad.
Of course people cheat. It's the aggressive way Vince is going about this and his insistence on conflating "Rule of Cool" with cheating that is entirely unacceptable.
My question at this point is what is the end goal? Let's say you get the DM to try out a digital roller without making a huge fuss about whether this person is cheating or not. I see two outcomes.
1) The player has a worse set of rolls throughout the session.
You might feel vindicated, but this actually proves nothing because the information you have now and presented in this thread is not definitive proof of cheating.
2) The player has another set of high rolls throughout the session.
You still have no clue whether this player was cheating or not because again, you do not have definitive proof.
Either way you are going to be left wondering, and clearly you cannot let go of the feeling that this player must be cheating. You have already come to a conclusion and are deeply effected by confirmation bias. Is any of this going to help you like this player more? Is any of this going to make their playstyle less annoying to you?
It comes off like you want to be the DM of this game and are not prepared to let go of certain things as a player. No doubt it's okay to approach your DM with concerns about anything, but not in the way you are going about things. You are displaying a huge lack of trust in their abilities. It's been two sessions of great rolls. You're acting like the DM would never bring it up if it continues to happen. Not to mention obviously this player has not rolled this way the entire campaign, because you are not citing more data points or even mentioning sessions before the last two as indicative of the potential problem. But because of how sure you are this person is cheating you are not giving the player the benefit of the doubt (you know that whole innocent until proven guilty mumbo jumbo we use in our legal system) and you aren't giving the DM time to become suspicious themselves and investigate of their own accord.
If you dislike one of the players this much and have no faith in the DM, why play in the game?
Even the extra casting of a first level spell is not evidence of a blatant cheater. Maybe they got distracted in the moment and forget to mark it off their sheet. The point is you don't actually know and should not be so adamant about it. Is it all a bit fishy? Absolutely. But you don't have the proof and are not in the DM chair to officiate over rolls. I suggest if it's making you this angry that you just walk away from the game. You clearly can't stand this person.
I really hate allowing cheaters to prosper. If I walk, I will most certainly make it clear WHY I am walking.
I completely agree with you vince. You should walk away from the game and make it clear it is because you think that one guy is cheating just because he has better luck than you. No need to throw in your disdain for people having fun differently from you though, that might be overkill.
And the concept of rolling in the open is unfun... why, exactly?
Why are you asking me that? I never said anything of the sorts.
Then if it really is just them having better luck, it is clear that that is all it is.
Mhm. Sure.
If you think no one ever cheats, I am sure there is somewhere out there with a bridge to sell you an a prince from some foreign land who needs your help to recover their wealth, who will reward you handsomely if you just send them money.
Can you please point to where I, or anyone else in this thread for that matter, claimed that no-one ever cheats? I can't find it.
Edit: Similarly, there are players who attempt to misuse the 'Rule of Cool' and who will whine and throw tantrums if the DM denies their 'amazing' ideas.
Absolutely. And if people don't want to play with those people they shouldn't. :)
I was assuming that your post was actually in context with the discussion in this thread. When you say "...because you think that one guy is cheating just because he has better luck than you..." you outright dismiss the possibility that the other person was cheating, particularly since they are rolling in their own home, where they are the only witness to the rolls.
Suggesting that all PC rolls should be made openly is a reasonable counter-measure, don't you think? That way, if it really is a lucky streak, everyone can see it and simply be amazed rather than suspicious or angry. However, seemingly chastizing someone for being suspicious seems more vindictive than constructive.
It is an counter-intuitive, but there is probably far less cheating amongst strangers who do have everything online and everything IS in the open, as opposed to games between friends and friends of friends, where it is considered an enormous faux pas to accuse someone of cheating. Friendships are ended over that sort of thing. Now, with THAT GUY, yeah, I would feel nothing but relief if he vanished from my life. But the collateral damage, given my history/ friendship with 2 of the other players, that is what is stopping me from walking / going full accusations. I think I need another 20 rolls or so of data. If I get 50 data points, and I am still seeing these crazy numbers, any statistician will say "nope".
None of that was what Lost was saying Kotath and Vince. Very clearly not. Don't put ridiculous words in peoples' mouths please. I know it's an easy way to dismiss someone, but all it does is make you look bad.
Of course people cheat. It's the aggressive way Vince is going about this and his insistence on conflating "Rule of Cool" with cheating that is entirely unacceptable.
My question at this point is what is the end goal? Let's say you get the DM to try out a digital roller without making a huge fuss about whether this person is cheating or not. I see two outcomes.
1) The player has a worse set of rolls throughout the session.
You might feel vindicated, but this actually proves nothing because the information you have now and presented in this thread is not definitive proof of cheating.
2) The player has another set of high rolls throughout the session.
You still have no clue whether this player was cheating or not because again, you do not have definitive proof.
Either way you are going to be left wondering, and clearly you cannot let go of the feeling that this player must be cheating. You have already come to a conclusion and are deeply effected by confirmation bias. Is any of this going to help you like this player more? Is any of this going to make their playstyle less annoying to you?
It comes off like you want to be the DM of this game and are not prepared to let go of certain things as a player. No doubt it's okay to approach your DM with concerns about anything, but not in the way you are going about things. You are displaying a huge lack of trust in their abilities. It's been two sessions of great rolls. You're acting like the DM would never bring it up if it continues to happen. Not to mention obviously this player has not rolled this way the entire campaign, because you are not citing more data points or even mentioning sessions before the last two as indicative of the potential problem. But because of how sure you are this person is cheating you are not giving the player the benefit of the doubt (you know that whole innocent until proven guilty mumbo jumbo we use in our legal system) and you aren't giving the DM time to become suspicious themselves and investigate of their own accord.
If you dislike one of the players this much and have no faith in the DM, why play in the game?
Actually, the reason I started tracking WAS because I had a feeling something was off, long before only 2 sessions ago. At the time, there were only 3 players in the game, and my char is dead easy to play, so I had a lot of mental downtime, and yeah, I am smart enough to pick up on things in-game. This is the 2nd time in 40 plus years of gaming that I have felt the need to do this.
And as for putting "ridiculous words in peoples' mouths", how about following your own advice. I have never said I have no faith in the DM. I have actually defended him, if you care to read more carefully.
You don't have to outright say "I don't have faith in my DM" to communicate the sentiment. The way you are going about all of this shows it. It's called reading in between the lines.
It is an counter-intuitive, but there is probably far less cheating amongst strangers who do have everything online and everything IS in the open, as opposed to games between friends and friends of friends, where it is considered an enormous faux pas to accuse someone of cheating. Friendships are ended over that sort of thing. Now, with THAT GUY, yeah, I would feel nothing but relief if he vanished from my life. But the collateral damage, given my history/ friendship with 2 of the other players, that is what is stopping me from walking / going full accusations. I think I need another 20 rolls or so of data. If I get 50 data points, and I am still seeing these crazy numbers, any statistician will say "nope".
You can easily make this happen by walking away. Communicate to your friends that you can't stand playing with this person because their playstyle clashes with your sensibilities. If they are indeed friends they will understand and not take it personally.
I mean what could possibly happen to make you enjoy a game that involves a person that you loathe?
If you dislike one of the players this much and have no faith in the DM, why play in the game?
This. I don't think there is anything that player can do which will convince you he was not cheating, and you seem to have little respect for the DMs ability to handle things. Given that, I cannot see any simple way for you to be able to enjoy that game, and would suggest you'd be better at another table.
Even the extra casting of a first level spell is not evidence of a blatant cheater. Maybe they got distracted in the moment and forget to mark it off their sheet. The point is you don't actually know and should not be so adamant about it. Is it all a bit fishy? Absolutely. But you don't have the proof and are not in the DM chair to officiate over rolls. I suggest if it's making you this angry that you just walk away from the game. You clearly can't stand this person.
I really hate allowing cheaters to prosper. If I walk, I will most certainly make it clear WHY I am walking.
I completely agree with you vince. You should walk away from the game and make it clear it is because you think that one guy is cheating just because he has better luck than you. No need to throw in your disdain for people having fun differently from you though, that might be overkill.
And the concept of rolling in the open is unfun... why, exactly?
Why are you asking me that? I never said anything of the sorts.
Then if it really is just them having better luck, it is clear that that is all it is.
Mhm. Sure.
If you think no one ever cheats, I am sure there is somewhere out there with a bridge to sell you an a prince from some foreign land who needs your help to recover their wealth, who will reward you handsomely if you just send them money.
Can you please point to where I, or anyone else in this thread for that matter, claimed that no-one ever cheats? I can't find it.
Edit: Similarly, there are players who attempt to misuse the 'Rule of Cool' and who will whine and throw tantrums if the DM denies their 'amazing' ideas.
Absolutely. And if people don't want to play with those people they shouldn't. :)
I was assuming that your post was actually in context with the discussion in this thread.
It was. It's just that you claimed I said something that I didn't.
When you say "...because you think that one guy is cheating just because he has better luck than you..." you outright dismiss the possibility that the other person was cheating,
First of all, no I haven't dismissed anything. Second of all, you falsely implied that I "think no one ever cheats" which is just not true.
Suggesting that all PC rolls should be made openly is a reasonable counter-measure, don't you think?
A counter measure to what? Lucky rolls or vince's aversion to particular ways to have fun? Either way, I haven't said anything about counter measures, I was talking about how to best solve the overall situation.
That way, if it really is a lucky streak, everyone can see it and simply be amazed rather than suspicious or angry. However, seemingly chastizing someone for being suspicious seems more vindictive than constructive.
It's just not someone being "suspicious" now is it? Not that I chastised anyone though so that's a moot point.
While the knee-jerk reactions to Vince's highly emotional rants are expected, they also shade open minded thinking. To say he has no faith in the DM is an assumption, as only now is VINCE even looking closely at the rolls, indicating the previous issue of too many "Rule of Cool" situations popping up likely overshadowed any weird rolling issues. This could easily show that the DM is also oblivious to these odd rolls, as he/she has a LOT more going on than the players, who, as Vince pointed out, often have idle time that allows tracking something like that. I both DM and play and I assure you, it's not as easy to notice a slew of high rolls when BEHIND the screen as in front of it.
Why would he ever consider sticking with this if he hates ONE of the other 4 people involved? Uh, maybe he is really IN to this campaign story and wants to play it out? Maybe he really enjoys playing with these other friends and wants to try and continue, under less stressful circumstances? Maybe he has a character he's really wanting to flesh out? Maybe he wants to try to finish something he started? I know today's society is all to quick to simply toss anything that doesn't work easily (see divorce rates) but SOME folks have an understanding of commitment and a desire to see things through, ADDRESSING issues when they come up for resolution as opposed to walking away without putting in any effort.
I agree with the sentiments that Vince's rants often come off as quite harsh and highly emotionally charged. If he addresses them with the groups in the same tone he brings here, I'm not surprised to see poor responses, however there were 2 folks (maybe more) who have said they know him and he's not this confrontational in person, so WE likely see the ranting frustration while the group might be seeing a more diplomatic presentation. I am playing Devil's advocate here, because a lot of his tone and attitude I don't agree with either, BUT when participating in most threads, and offering my voice, I try to see things from as many angles as I can, to better understand the situation.
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
Equating cheating with rule of cool is pretty dumb and stupid. It is fine to have biases, but you also have to recognize them in the first place and not actually believe it and act on it. I have a very poor impression of old roleplayers, but that does not mean I believe all roleplayers are as toxic and negative as you are.
I would bring it up with the GM one-on-one. If the relationship ends because the GM thinks of it as you are accusing another player of cheating, then I would not call the relationship a friendship in the first place. Friendship is more than a simple sharing of hobbies, and I would not call anything that cannot handle something as minor as disagreement over D&D a friendship. If your faith in all your friendships are so shallow that you are afraid of breaking them over something as stupid as a hobby or minor disagreement, you have some serious personal issues you got to work on.
Personally, I would just walk away. As much as the other person is annoying you, you are probably annoying the hell out of the other person too. If you refuse to work on your biases and friendship but still want to save your relationship with the GM for some reason, walking away and keeping the status quo is probably the easiest thing to do. Just make up an excuse and say you are busy or something and cannot make the commitment to that campaign. I see no point in wasting my time and energy on acquaintances and strangers when I have a group of friends that I can hangout with.
Just because other people have different beliefs than you, doesn't mean they are wrong. Everyone is biased toward something. The player that is using the rule of cool isn't wrong because of thier beliefs. As for the one cheating, first of all, they might just have really good luck. Second of all, you can talk to the DM. If that will break a friendship, maybe it isn't the right group for you.
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The Circle of Hedgehogs Druid Beholder/Animated Armor Level -20 Bardof the OIADSB Cult, here are our rules.Sig.Also a sauce council member, but it's been dead for a while.
While the knee-jerk reactions to Vince's highly emotional rants are expected, they also shade open minded thinking. To say he has no faith in the DM is an assumption, as only now is VINCE even looking closely at the rolls, indicating the previous issue of too many "Rule of Cool" situations popping up likely overshadowed any weird rolling issues. This could easily show that the DM is also oblivious to these odd rolls, as he/she has a LOT more going on than the players, who, as Vince pointed out, often have idle time that allows tracking something like that. I both DM and play and I assure you, it's not as easy to notice a slew of high rolls when BEHIND the screen as in front of it.
I don't appreciate the repeated attempts to make this about personal feelings about Vince. I won't speak for anyone else, but I for one am responding only to the vitriolic nature of the OP and the toxicity Vince continues to display in the discussion. Stop it with the petty accusations.
If you don't see what he's saying as communicating a lack of faith in the DM, that's okay. But I do. It isn't an assumption. It's a conclusion based on the ample evidence displayed in his writing.
Absolutely the DM could be oblivious. The point is you can approach them about this in a healthy, respectful way and Vince is not on that trajectory.
Why would he ever consider sticking with this if he hates ONE of the other 4 people involved? Uh, maybe he is really IN to this campaign story and wants to play it out? Maybe he really enjoys playing with these other friends and wants to try and continue, under less stressful circumstances? Maybe he has a character he's really wanting to flesh out? Maybe he wants to try to finish something he started? I know today's society is all to quick to simply toss anything that doesn't work easily (see divorce rates) but SOME folks have an understanding of commitment and a desire to see things through, ADDRESSING issues when they come up for resolution as opposed to walking away without putting in any effort.
"Now, with THAT GUY, yeah, I would feel nothing but relief if he vanished from my life." I have a hard time believing that feeling this way about someone could be addressed in a meaningful way that leaves both players happy at the table.
I agree with the sentiments that Vince's rants often come off as quite harsh and highly emotionally charged. If he addresses them with the groups in the same tone he brings here, I'm not surprised to see poor responses, however there were 2 folks (maybe more) who have said they know him and he's not this confrontational in person, so WE likely see the ranting frustration while the group might be seeing a more diplomatic presentation. I am playing Devil's advocate here, because a lot of his tone and attitude I don't agree with either, BUT when participating in most threads, and offering my voice, I try to see things from as many angles as I can, to better understand the situation.
Yeah so do I. Nothing special about it. You probably wouldn't feel the need to say that if you weren't busy accusing people of petty crap like saying what they are because of a personal vendetta as you put it.
And there is the issue. You are treating this as if it is a court of criminal law. It isn't. And leaving because something unliked is hardly the only solution here. The other player leaving because they are distrusted is likewise not the only alternative solution.
Why not open rolls? Then there are no such questions.
So innocent until proven guilty only applies in the court? Kind of just seems like good ethics to me.
I never said anything against open rolls. My point was that starting to use them now won't prove that they were cheating before it was instituted.
Having faced a cheat roller in our own campaign and seeing it completely vanish upon going to visible rolls for everyone, I can say it will eliminate the debate/argument/accusation side of the whole crap show. I can understand getting defensive when a biased view of the situation is pointed out, and I am amused to an extent by the notion that I have made petty accusations, in the same thread where the poster says Vince is handling this with his table in an overly emotion and confrontational way. Might be you skipped the part where I suggested that others who claim to know him IRL describe his manner as much more civil and rational and thus his dealing with the table is likely less volatile than here. Of course that was part of what I tried to say, and mention that others have immediately assumed he's being an overbearing asshat with the group, because he's so hot here.
The read I get from all these posts (in both threads) is that Vince gets really irritated by some things and when he presents them here on the forum, it comes off as a raging madman, red in the face and screaming. Taking into account references of folks who say they know him personally, I presume his interaction with the DM and players at the table is much more diplomatic. The main point I make is that WE see the rage/frustration and irritation yet all indicators I see say the table sees a player with concerns and questions. Having been in situations where I would most happily throat punch one person in the group while thoroughly enjoying the company of the rest, I can appreciate how irritating being in this spot is.
And finally, since I mentioned NO names, nor specific quotes, methink thou dost protest overmuch for you to be innocent of said charges. If you see my remarks as aimed at you, with nothing within directly pointing at you........maybe I was correct?
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
Oh please, you can still do the rolls manually in Avrae. You can also do any modifiers as separate rolls and add them manually. Using real dice you would have to manually add anyway. Or you can use something like Dice Maiden with Avrae. There is no 'only one bot or tool per player' rule.
Sure you can. It's just one kind of convenience vs another though. Working on paper is easy. Adding non-official stuff to digital tools isn't, or at least not always. Manually rolling dice and adding them up can take a little bit longer, but is more pleasing in a tactile manner. No option is absolutely better in every way.
Again, not mutually exclusive. I use paper for very little but, as a DM, I use Excel for initiative and enemy hp tracking and use manual rolls, since the DM would normally roll behind the screen anyway. Avrae is used for most things PC with exceptions it does not cover simply handled by separate die roll(s) with Avrae and manual addition.
Hardly complex.
The problem with manual rolls for players are the risks of a lack of transparency. Someone could be accused of cheating, rightly or wrongly. Someone could be doing things incorrectly completely innocently, thinking they have it right. Either way, the DM has the right to see the math. This is more than mere convenience. It has practical utility.
While I get the practical utility, and the reduction in errors (once the software is set up and all settings correct), it is the "if it ain't broke, why fix it" mindset to deal with. I am going to have a hard sell to a bunch of old school players, and a DM who at this point thinks nothing is wrong. If was him, I would have exactly the same feeling. Like I said, this will be a very hard sell. I played in another game yesterday where the average age was under 40, and it was all "roll at home", and not a single person even had a thought of going online with rolls, including me.
You’re playing in the wrong games then. Online rolling has become nearly ubiquitous because people just can’t be trusted. Sorry, but I’ve played live games where people roll behind their screen and/or pick up the dice before it even stops moving to yell “crit!”... there’s just too many people out there in public games that screw with the dice rolls and have no qualms making the game about success rather than challenges.
I am an old school DM for over 30 some years, and I absolutely love online rolling. I even roll openly myself as a DM; something I avoided for years but now I’ve embraced and my players love it. When they win, it’s because they know for a fact I didn’t pull any punches or play favourites.
If at this point you haven’t found a group that uses an online roller but still prefer manual dice rolling AND you play random games where you’re not close friends with everyone at the table... then you have set yourself up for disappointment. I agree that guy is very likely cheating, but you’re purposefully failing those saving throws my friend.
And the concept of rolling in the open is unfun... why, exactly?
Why are you asking me that? I never said anything of the sorts.
Then if it really is just them having better luck, it is clear that that is all it is.
Mhm. Sure.
If you think no one ever cheats, I am sure there is somewhere out there with a bridge to sell you an a prince from some foreign land who needs your help to recover their wealth, who will reward you handsomely if you just send them money.
Can you please point to where I, or anyone else in this thread for that matter, claimed that no-one ever cheats? I can't find it.
Edit: Similarly, there are players who attempt to misuse the 'Rule of Cool' and who will whine and throw tantrums if the DM denies their 'amazing' ideas.
Absolutely. And if people don't want to play with those people they shouldn't. :)
I was assuming that your post was actually in context with the discussion in this thread.
It was. It's just that you claimed I said something that I didn't.
When you say "...because you think that one guy is cheating just because he has better luck than you..." you outright dismiss the possibility that the other person was cheating,
First of all, no I haven't dismissed anything. Second of all, you falsely implied that I "think no one ever cheats" which is just not true.
Suggesting that all PC rolls should be made openly is a reasonable counter-measure, don't you think?
A counter measure to what? Lucky rolls or vince's aversion to particular ways to have fun? Either way, I haven't said anything about counter measures, I was talking about how to best solve the overall situation.
That way, if it really is a lucky streak, everyone can see it and simply be amazed rather than suspicious or angry. However, seemingly chastizing someone for being suspicious seems more vindictive than constructive.
It's just not someone being "suspicious" now is it? Not that I chastised anyone though so that's a moot point.
Ok, so what, exactly, is your point? You claim it isn't about Vince being suspicious. You claim that you do not object to open rolls (despite seemingly arguing against my suggestion of it as a solution).
If this is over 'Vince's definition of fun," not sure that is actually the topic.
It is very much the topic though.
It's not a simple "I caught a fellow player cheating" topic.
It's a "I hate rule of cool and no wonder because the rule of cool player turns out to be a cheater" topic. Look at the title. Look at the last three sentences of the first post.
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Can.
*******.
Concur.
The automatic dice roller's great - if you never stray beyond the rulebooks. The moment you try to do anything other than push a button on your character sheet - and half the buttons you can push on the sheet, to boot - the whole thing just stares at you blankly and locks up.
I do prefer Discord roller bots. Avrae is an over-complicated nonsensical mess, but a simple dice roller can let you roll in a Discord channel not any much more slowly than throwing physical dice. Get Dice Maiden going, enter !roll 1d20+1d4+5 for a Guidance skill check or the like, get your result. Same with Sneak Attack, or homebrew magic items, or anything else. A simple, no-nonsense dice bot that lets you specify an expression and get back the math is about as close to perfect as it gets for online play. I prefer throwing physical dice myself, but alas - not a thing this day and age.
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Sure you can. It's just one kind of convenience vs another though. Working on paper is easy. Adding non-official stuff to digital tools isn't, or at least not always. Manually rolling dice and adding them up can take a little bit longer, but is more pleasing in a tactile manner. No option is absolutely better in every way.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I completely agree with you vince. You should walk away from the game and make it clear it is because you think that one guy is cheating just because he has better luck than you. No need to throw in your disdain for people having fun differently from you though, that might be overkill.
While I get the practical utility, and the reduction in errors (once the software is set up and all settings correct), it is the "if it ain't broke, why fix it" mindset to deal with. I am going to have a hard sell to a bunch of old school players, and a DM who at this point thinks nothing is wrong. If was him, I would have exactly the same feeling. Like I said, this will be a very hard sell. I played in another game yesterday where the average age was under 40, and it was all "roll at home", and not a single person even had a thought of going online with rolls, including me.
Yeah, thanks for your very helpful input. If you think cheating is a "having fun differently"....wow.
That last part was obviously a reference to your inability to enjoy the rule of cool. Wasn't that obvious?
Why are you asking me that? I never said anything of the sorts.
Mhm. Sure.
Can you please point to where I, or anyone else in this thread for that matter, claimed that no-one ever cheats? I can't find it.
Absolutely. And if people don't want to play with those people they shouldn't. :)
None of that was what Lost was saying Kotath and Vince. Very clearly not. Don't put ridiculous words in peoples' mouths please. I know it's an easy way to dismiss someone, but all it does is make you look bad.
Of course people cheat. It's the aggressive way Vince is going about this and his insistence on conflating "Rule of Cool" with cheating that is entirely unacceptable.
My question at this point is what is the end goal? Let's say you get the DM to try out a digital roller without making a huge fuss about whether this person is cheating or not. I see two outcomes.
1) The player has a worse set of rolls throughout the session.
You might feel vindicated, but this actually proves nothing because the information you have now and presented in this thread is not definitive proof of cheating.
2) The player has another set of high rolls throughout the session.
You still have no clue whether this player was cheating or not because again, you do not have definitive proof.
Either way you are going to be left wondering, and clearly you cannot let go of the feeling that this player must be cheating. You have already come to a conclusion and are deeply effected by confirmation bias. Is any of this going to help you like this player more? Is any of this going to make their playstyle less annoying to you?
It comes off like you want to be the DM of this game and are not prepared to let go of certain things as a player. No doubt it's okay to approach your DM with concerns about anything, but not in the way you are going about things. You are displaying a huge lack of trust in their abilities. It's been two sessions of great rolls. You're acting like the DM would never bring it up if it continues to happen. Not to mention obviously this player has not rolled this way the entire campaign, because you are not citing more data points or even mentioning sessions before the last two as indicative of the potential problem. But because of how sure you are this person is cheating you are not giving the player the benefit of the doubt (you know that whole innocent until proven guilty mumbo jumbo we use in our legal system) and you aren't giving the DM time to become suspicious themselves and investigate of their own accord.
If you dislike one of the players this much and have no faith in the DM, why play in the game?
It is an counter-intuitive, but there is probably far less cheating amongst strangers who do have everything online and everything IS in the open, as opposed to games between friends and friends of friends, where it is considered an enormous faux pas to accuse someone of cheating. Friendships are ended over that sort of thing. Now, with THAT GUY, yeah, I would feel nothing but relief if he vanished from my life. But the collateral damage, given my history/ friendship with 2 of the other players, that is what is stopping me from walking / going full accusations. I think I need another 20 rolls or so of data. If I get 50 data points, and I am still seeing these crazy numbers, any statistician will say "nope".
Actually, the reason I started tracking WAS because I had a feeling something was off, long before only 2 sessions ago. At the time, there were only 3 players in the game, and my char is dead easy to play, so I had a lot of mental downtime, and yeah, I am smart enough to pick up on things in-game. This is the 2nd time in 40 plus years of gaming that I have felt the need to do this.
And as for putting "ridiculous words in peoples' mouths", how about following your own advice. I have never said I have no faith in the DM. I have actually defended him, if you care to read more carefully.
You don't have to outright say "I don't have faith in my DM" to communicate the sentiment. The way you are going about all of this shows it. It's called reading in between the lines.
You can easily make this happen by walking away. Communicate to your friends that you can't stand playing with this person because their playstyle clashes with your sensibilities. If they are indeed friends they will understand and not take it personally.
I mean what could possibly happen to make you enjoy a game that involves a person that you loathe?
This. I don't think there is anything that player can do which will convince you he was not cheating, and you seem to have little respect for the DMs ability to handle things. Given that, I cannot see any simple way for you to be able to enjoy that game, and would suggest you'd be better at another table.
It was. It's just that you claimed I said something that I didn't.
First of all, no I haven't dismissed anything. Second of all, you falsely implied that I "think no one ever cheats" which is just not true.
A counter measure to what? Lucky rolls or vince's aversion to particular ways to have fun? Either way, I haven't said anything about counter measures, I was talking about how to best solve the overall situation.
It's just not someone being "suspicious" now is it? Not that I chastised anyone though so that's a moot point.
While the knee-jerk reactions to Vince's highly emotional rants are expected, they also shade open minded thinking. To say he has no faith in the DM is an assumption, as only now is VINCE even looking closely at the rolls, indicating the previous issue of too many "Rule of Cool" situations popping up likely overshadowed any weird rolling issues. This could easily show that the DM is also oblivious to these odd rolls, as he/she has a LOT more going on than the players, who, as Vince pointed out, often have idle time that allows tracking something like that. I both DM and play and I assure you, it's not as easy to notice a slew of high rolls when BEHIND the screen as in front of it.
Why would he ever consider sticking with this if he hates ONE of the other 4 people involved? Uh, maybe he is really IN to this campaign story and wants to play it out? Maybe he really enjoys playing with these other friends and wants to try and continue, under less stressful circumstances? Maybe he has a character he's really wanting to flesh out? Maybe he wants to try to finish something he started? I know today's society is all to quick to simply toss anything that doesn't work easily (see divorce rates) but SOME folks have an understanding of commitment and a desire to see things through, ADDRESSING issues when they come up for resolution as opposed to walking away without putting in any effort.
I agree with the sentiments that Vince's rants often come off as quite harsh and highly emotionally charged. If he addresses them with the groups in the same tone he brings here, I'm not surprised to see poor responses, however there were 2 folks (maybe more) who have said they know him and he's not this confrontational in person, so WE likely see the ranting frustration while the group might be seeing a more diplomatic presentation. I am playing Devil's advocate here, because a lot of his tone and attitude I don't agree with either, BUT when participating in most threads, and offering my voice, I try to see things from as many angles as I can, to better understand the situation.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
Equating cheating with rule of cool is pretty dumb and stupid. It is fine to have biases, but you also have to recognize them in the first place and not actually believe it and act on it. I have a very poor impression of old roleplayers, but that does not mean I believe all roleplayers are as toxic and negative as you are.
I would bring it up with the GM one-on-one. If the relationship ends because the GM thinks of it as you are accusing another player of cheating, then I would not call the relationship a friendship in the first place. Friendship is more than a simple sharing of hobbies, and I would not call anything that cannot handle something as minor as disagreement over D&D a friendship. If your faith in all your friendships are so shallow that you are afraid of breaking them over something as stupid as a hobby or minor disagreement, you have some serious personal issues you got to work on.
Personally, I would just walk away. As much as the other person is annoying you, you are probably annoying the hell out of the other person too. If you refuse to work on your biases and friendship but still want to save your relationship with the GM for some reason, walking away and keeping the status quo is probably the easiest thing to do. Just make up an excuse and say you are busy or something and cannot make the commitment to that campaign. I see no point in wasting my time and energy on acquaintances and strangers when I have a group of friends that I can hangout with.
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Just because other people have different beliefs than you, doesn't mean they are wrong. Everyone is biased toward something. The player that is using the rule of cool isn't wrong because of thier beliefs. As for the one cheating, first of all, they might just have really good luck. Second of all, you can talk to the DM. If that will break a friendship, maybe it isn't the right group for you.
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I don't appreciate the repeated attempts to make this about personal feelings about Vince. I won't speak for anyone else, but I for one am responding only to the vitriolic nature of the OP and the toxicity Vince continues to display in the discussion. Stop it with the petty accusations.
If you don't see what he's saying as communicating a lack of faith in the DM, that's okay. But I do. It isn't an assumption. It's a conclusion based on the ample evidence displayed in his writing.
Absolutely the DM could be oblivious. The point is you can approach them about this in a healthy, respectful way and Vince is not on that trajectory.
"Now, with THAT GUY, yeah, I would feel nothing but relief if he vanished from my life." I have a hard time believing that feeling this way about someone could be addressed in a meaningful way that leaves both players happy at the table.
Yeah so do I. Nothing special about it. You probably wouldn't feel the need to say that if you weren't busy accusing people of petty crap like saying what they are because of a personal vendetta as you put it.
So innocent until proven guilty only applies in the court? Kind of just seems like good ethics to me.
I never said anything against open rolls. My point was that starting to use them now won't prove that they were cheating before it was instituted.
Having faced a cheat roller in our own campaign and seeing it completely vanish upon going to visible rolls for everyone, I can say it will eliminate the debate/argument/accusation side of the whole crap show. I can understand getting defensive when a biased view of the situation is pointed out, and I am amused to an extent by the notion that I have made petty accusations, in the same thread where the poster says Vince is handling this with his table in an overly emotion and confrontational way. Might be you skipped the part where I suggested that others who claim to know him IRL describe his manner as much more civil and rational and thus his dealing with the table is likely less volatile than here. Of course that was part of what I tried to say, and mention that others have immediately assumed he's being an overbearing asshat with the group, because he's so hot here.
The read I get from all these posts (in both threads) is that Vince gets really irritated by some things and when he presents them here on the forum, it comes off as a raging madman, red in the face and screaming. Taking into account references of folks who say they know him personally, I presume his interaction with the DM and players at the table is much more diplomatic. The main point I make is that WE see the rage/frustration and irritation yet all indicators I see say the table sees a player with concerns and questions. Having been in situations where I would most happily throat punch one person in the group while thoroughly enjoying the company of the rest, I can appreciate how irritating being in this spot is.
And finally, since I mentioned NO names, nor specific quotes, methink thou dost protest overmuch for you to be innocent of said charges. If you see my remarks as aimed at you, with nothing within directly pointing at you........maybe I was correct?
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
You’re playing in the wrong games then. Online rolling has become nearly ubiquitous because people just can’t be trusted. Sorry, but I’ve played live games where people roll behind their screen and/or pick up the dice before it even stops moving to yell “crit!”... there’s just too many people out there in public games that screw with the dice rolls and have no qualms making the game about success rather than challenges.
I am an old school DM for over 30 some years, and I absolutely love online rolling. I even roll openly myself as a DM; something I avoided for years but now I’ve embraced and my players love it. When they win, it’s because they know for a fact I didn’t pull any punches or play favourites.
If at this point you haven’t found a group that uses an online roller but still prefer manual dice rolling AND you play random games where you’re not close friends with everyone at the table... then you have set yourself up for disappointment. I agree that guy is very likely cheating, but you’re purposefully failing those saving throws my friend.
It is very much the topic though.
It's not a simple "I caught a fellow player cheating" topic.
It's a "I hate rule of cool and no wonder because the rule of cool player turns out to be a cheater" topic. Look at the title. Look at the last three sentences of the first post.