Hello, this is a thread for discussion of the Pugilist class from Sterling Vermin, pretty much just a place to share your experiences and opinion on the Pugilist.
Let's keep this civil and if you have a distaste or distrust of homebrew, just stay of this thread and enjoy yourself somewhere else.
I tried to track down the Pugilist class from Sterling Vermin. I found them at last with a google search. Their web page lacks any information at all about the class. Evidentially you need to spend money on it. They want you to contribute to their Paetreon account. No thanks.
Threads about people fighting without weapons are a perennial thing on these forums. They crop up all the time. This is my opinion: They are a poor idea at best.
At no time in all of recorded history has it been better to fight in serious battles without weapons. Even in the Orient, the home of the Martial Arts, it wasn't a good idea. Martial artists used their skills to try and survive long enough to hopefully grab some kind of weapon to use. Perhaps to take it from an enemy, perhaps just to stall long enough for an ally to arrive. As near as can be figured, it has been this way since the Stone Age.
A fantasy game allows for it, and I have seen examples that I quite liked. Monks are just about perfect for the job. There was a bunch of Monks in The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. They were called the Bloodguard. They were found in the first three books, I think they may have been in the second three, and I never read the last three.
Haruchai are a hardy race of warriors living in the Westron Mountains, west of the Land. The Haruchai shun the use of weapons or magic, taking pride in their own physical prowess and the purity of their service, which is never given lightly. They have the ability to communicate amongst themselves via telepathy, and each can access the combined memories of their entire race. Outwardly stoic, even seemingly emotionless, they could also be considered arrogant in their beliefs. It is revealed on several occasions that the Haruchai are a deeply passionate race, capable of swearing a lifetime's worth of service if sufficiently moved.
I see no use for a new class, especially one that is to fill a role already taken.
I tried to track down the Pugilist class from Sterling Vermin. I found them at last with a google search. Their web page lacks any information at all about the class. Evidentially you need to spend money on it. They want you to contribute to their Paetreon account. No thanks.
Threads about people fighting without weapons are a perennial thing on these forums. They crop up all the time. This is my opinion: They are a poor idea at best.
At no time in all of recorded history has it been better to fight in serious battles without weapons. Even in the Orient, the home of the Martial Arts, it wasn't a good idea. Martial artists used their skills to try and survive long enough to hopefully grab some kind of weapon to use. Perhaps to take it from an enemy, perhaps just to stall long enough for an ally to arrive. As near as can be figured, it has been this way since the Stone Age.
A fantasy game allows for it, and I have seen examples that I quite liked. Monks are just about perfect for the job. There was a bunch of Monks in The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. They were called the Bloodguard. They were found in the first three books, I think they may have been in the second three, and I never read the last three.
Haruchai are a hardy race of warriors living in the Westron Mountains, west of the Land. The Haruchai shun the use of weapons or magic, taking pride in their own physical prowess and the purity of their service, which is never given lightly. They have the ability to communicate amongst themselves via telepathy, and each can access the combined memories of their entire race. Outwardly stoic, even seemingly emotionless, they could also be considered arrogant in their beliefs. It is revealed on several occasions that the Haruchai are a deeply passionate race, capable of swearing a lifetime's worth of service if sufficiently moved.
I see no use for a new class, especially one that is to fill a role already taken.
It's here for people who want a bar-fighting street bruiser that loves a good scrap, and that draws power from their own strength, courage, and determination, not a magic force that flows through the universe, if you don't like it that's fine.
It doesn't step on any of the monk's ( or barbarian's for that matter ) toes and plays totally differently, just sayin' :).
It's here for people who want a bar-fighting street bruiser that loves a good scrap, and that draws power from their own strength, courage, and determination, not a magic force that flows through the universe...
You take the Tavern Brawler Feat and you go to town with it. No need for a class. You can even do this with a Monk if that's what you wish.
Your link gives me an Internal Server Error by the way.
It's here for people who want a bar-fighting street bruiser that loves a good scrap, and that draws power from their own strength, courage, and determination, not a magic force that flows through the universe...
You take the Tavern Brawler Feat and you go to town with it. No need for a class. You can even do this with a Monk if that's what you wish.
Your link gives me an Internal Server Error by the way.
Google "pugilist 5e" first result....
Also the closest you can get to a STR monk in 5e is a fighter with unarmed style which is a very poor version of the monk.
STR monk just doesn't work in 5e unfortunately.
The pugilist has some cool class stuff that isn't represented by any 5e subclass or class yet.
It's here for people who want a bar-fighting street bruiser that loves a good scrap, and that draws power from their own strength, courage, and determination, not a magic force that flows through the universe...
You take the Tavern Brawler Feat and you go to town with it. No need for a class. You can even do this with a Monk if that's what you wish.
Your link gives me an Internal Server Error by the way.
Thanks to OptimusGrimus, I was able to read the Pugilist Class. I didn't read the entire thing. I got as far as the subclasses and skimmed the rest. They did an impressive amount of work. I would have to see one in actual play to judge it. The Class looks way too powerful to me, but as I said, I can't tell just from looking at it.
Thanks to OptimusGrimus, I was able to read the Pugilist Class. I didn't read the entire thing. I got as far as the subclasses and skimmed the rest. They did an impressive amount of work. I would have to see one in actual play to judge it. The Class looks way too powerful to me, but as I said, I can't tell just from looking at it.
Just curious, which version did you read?, Version 2's Brace Up is a little iffy.
It's here for people who want a bar-fighting street bruiser that loves a good scrap, and that draws power from their own strength, courage, and determination, not a magic force that flows through the universe...
You take the Tavern Brawler Feat and you go to town with it. No need for a class. You can even do this with a Monk if that's what you wish.
Your link gives me an Internal Server Error by the way.
Google "pugilist 5e" first result....
Also the closest you can get to a STR monk in 5e is a fighter with unarmed style which is a very poor version of the monk.
STR monk just doesn't work in 5e unfortunately.
The pugilist has some cool class stuff that isn't represented by any 5e subclass or class yet.
STR monk is basically only really good for grappling, but pairs quite well with a few levels in Barbarian.
Unarmed fighting initiate with paladin could be quite fun, *Cracks knuckles with religious intent*.
I'm not a fan narratively, in that an unarmed brute character should be mince when faced with moderately compatent sword weilders. The reach should mean a weapon user will always strike first, and as a brute type character speed is not the prime characteristic (unlike the agile monk's who rely on dodgy blows to close the distance). They would also miss out on cool magic weapons. I don't mind the idea for a bouncer or unarmed pit fighter, but for a dungeon delving adventurer it doesn't mesh as well. I'm not sure if this particular homebrew includes size consideration, but really body weight makes a big difference, so a gnome pugilist should be less powerful than a goliath one.
I'm not a fan narratively, in that an unarmed brute character should be mince when faced with moderately compatent sword weilders. The reach should mean a weapon user will always strike first, and as a brute type character speed is not the prime characteristic (unlike the agile monk's who rely on dodgy blows to close the distance). They would also miss out on cool magic weapons. I don't mind the idea for a bouncer or unarmed pit fighter, but for a dungeon delving adventurer it doesn't mesh as well. I'm not sure if this particular homebrew includes size consideration, but really body weight makes a big difference, so a gnome pugilist should be less powerful than a goliath one.
I think you're overthinking 5e a little too much on all of these points, it's supposed to be fun and simple, not realistic.
Thanks to OptimusGrimus, I was able to read the Pugilist Class. I didn't read the entire thing. I got as far as the subclasses and skimmed the rest. They did an impressive amount of work. I would have to see one in actual play to judge it. The Class looks way too powerful to me, but as I said, I can't tell just from looking at it.
What part did you find OP?, I'm interested in what you thought.
Thanks to OptimusGrimus, I was able to read the Pugilist Class. I didn't read the entire thing. I got as far as the subclasses and skimmed the rest. They did an impressive amount of work. I would have to see one in actual play to judge it. The Class looks way too powerful to me, but as I said, I can't tell just from looking at it.
What part did you find OP?, I'm interested in what you thought.
All right. You asked. Here goes.
First thing that strikes me is that Pugilists are automatically proficient in improvised weapons. I'm not sure why one would ever bother, they do better damage without them, but perhaps they *really* need to use that silver candlestick holder to beat up a Werewolf. In any case it seems unreasonable for them to get a bonus to hit with anything at all times and in all cases.
Next, they start out with a minimum damage of 1D6. There Martial Arts... er... Fisticuffs Die starts at what a Monk gets at 5th level. Their version of the Monk's Unarmored Defense is based solely around Constitution, removing one of the big drawbacks Monks have, which is the need for multiple high stats. That makes Iron Chin better than Unarmored Defense while doing the same exact thing.
Moxie, their version of Ki Points, gives them roughly the same thing as Monks get. Again, I think they come out ahead a little. They get to heal themselves, Monks get to Disengage for free. Hard to judge this one.
Street Smart is handy I guess, and there is no equivalent for Monks. Bloodied But Unbowed is quite powerful and again, Monks get nothing like it.
Monks get Slow Fall and Deflect Missiles. Both of which are quite nice, but put together I don't see them as being as useful as Bloodied But Unbowed.
Dig Deep encroaches on the Barbarian Rage mechanics, but with the disadvantage of their Berserker Frenzy. Not good.
Haymaker is again more in the Barbarian neck of the woods, the disadvantage isn't nearly as bad as the benefit here. Automatic maximum damage is insane.
Fancy Footwork is much inferior to Evasion. Down But Not Out makes Bloodied But Unbowed even more powerful again. Unarmored Movement and the Improved version are nice, but somewhat situational, so the points are still on the Pugilist side.
The School Of Hard Knocks is better than Purity Of Body. The School gives you Advantage against two common and dangerous conditions, Stunned and Unconscious, and you get Resistance to Psychic damage on top of that. Monks get to be immune to Disease and Poison, which aren't much of a problem at 10th level in any game I have never heard of.
The Tongue Of Sun And Moon and Rabble Rouser is another one that is hard to judge. The effect of the Tongues spell at will and without limited number of uses is outstanding in a game where the DM is using Languages much, and totally useless if the Common Tongue gets you by. Advantage on Persuasion and Intimidation will be handy always. Point to Pugilist again I'd say.
I think Diamond Soul is better than Unbreakable. Especially since Monks get Evasion. Point to the Monks!
Herculean or Timeless Body? Herculean lets you break stuff and jump high. Timeless Body's main features is utterly useless in 5th Edition D&D, but the secondary feature, not having to eat or drink could be wonderful... if the DM is using those Encumbrance rules and sending you out on long trips in hostile environments. Very much a DM's call. No points awarded.
Fighting Spirit over Empty Body... Going to have to go with the Monk side again. The ability to recover from a whole lot of Exhaustion is pretty neato and vital if you abuse Dig Deep, but as I said, I don't like Dig Deep. Fighting Spirit lets you recover a whole whale of a lot of hit points and a bunch of you Ki... Moxie... but Empty Body lets you be invisible. It's expensive in terms of moxie/ki but Invisibility rocks. The Astral Projection effect seems fairly useless to me. You can't take anyone with you. How will you use that? Scrying? Ok I guess.
The Capstones for both classes are Peak Physical Condition and Perfect Self. Peak Condition lets you bypass the hard caps on maximum scores. Barbarian territory again. Perfect Self lets you recover Ki like crazy. Pugilist wins. Lots more times when higher scores will matter than more Ki points.
Monks are ever so much more speedy. Does that matter? I think it depends you the DM. Wide open spaces favor the Monk. How often will you be free to use all that movement?
I don't want to get into the subclasses. I didn't read the Pugilist ones and I still don't want to. Unless there's a Hexblade equivalent running around in there, the Pugilist is winning the war. I know Monks don't have a Hexbladeish subclass. No uber subclass that makes a one or two level dip into the class worth taking.
You want a nonmagical sort? Pugilist isn't that any more than a Monk is. Have fun, whatever you do.
I'm not a fan narratively, in that an unarmed brute character should be mince when faced with moderately compatent sword weilders. The reach should mean a weapon user will always strike first, and as a brute type character speed is not the prime characteristic (unlike the agile monk's who rely on dodgy blows to close the distance). They would also miss out on cool magic weapons. I don't mind the idea for a bouncer or unarmed pit fighter, but for a dungeon delving adventurer it doesn't mesh as well. I'm not sure if this particular homebrew includes size consideration, but really body weight makes a big difference, so a gnome pugilist should be less powerful than a goliath one.
I think you're overthinking 5e a little too much on all of these points, it's supposed to be fun and simple, not realistic.
Those two things don't have to be mutually exclusive. You can absolutely run a comedic, slapstick adventure with ridiculous goblins, over the top steampunk inventions and a hilarious adventure hook, or you can go the other way and run high fantasy, story driven, bloody, brutal and dark adventure. There is no right or wrong, just different styles that are fun to different people. The idea of a pugilist subjectively doesn't work in my preferred style of game, but that is just my personal opinion.
From browsing the other discussions on this class most people seemed to agree that it was balanced, as long as you have the up to date version (not sure what changed but early versions were apparently OP). That change in version does make it hard to know when people complain, whether they are complaining about an out of date version or not. For example I saw people complain about the haymaker skill, but reading it I see no difference between it and a monk's stunning strike. Perhaps it was different in the past?
I see nothing game breaking about the build, but you can never be sure how skills will interact with all possibilities. Many DM's don't allow classes that aren't official, but if yours will and you can play with such a character I'd be interested to hear how you find the balance.
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Hello, this is a thread for discussion of the Pugilist class from Sterling Vermin, pretty much just a place to share your experiences and opinion on the Pugilist.
Let's keep this civil and if you have a distaste or distrust of homebrew, just stay of this thread and enjoy yourself somewhere else.
And last, but not least, have fun :).
Mystic v3 should be official, nuff said.
Great third party option that I wish I could build on here!
Top 3 class I want to play when I get to be in another 5e game.
I tried to track down the Pugilist class from Sterling Vermin. I found them at last with a google search. Their web page lacks any information at all about the class. Evidentially you need to spend money on it. They want you to contribute to their Paetreon account. No thanks.
Threads about people fighting without weapons are a perennial thing on these forums. They crop up all the time. This is my opinion: They are a poor idea at best.
At no time in all of recorded history has it been better to fight in serious battles without weapons. Even in the Orient, the home of the Martial Arts, it wasn't a good idea. Martial artists used their skills to try and survive long enough to hopefully grab some kind of weapon to use. Perhaps to take it from an enemy, perhaps just to stall long enough for an ally to arrive. As near as can be figured, it has been this way since the Stone Age.
A fantasy game allows for it, and I have seen examples that I quite liked. Monks are just about perfect for the job. There was a bunch of Monks in The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. They were called the Bloodguard. They were found in the first three books, I think they may have been in the second three, and I never read the last three.
Haruchai are a hardy race of warriors living in the Westron Mountains, west of the Land. The Haruchai shun the use of weapons or magic, taking pride in their own physical prowess and the purity of their service, which is never given lightly. They have the ability to communicate amongst themselves via telepathy, and each can access the combined memories of their entire race. Outwardly stoic, even seemingly emotionless, they could also be considered arrogant in their beliefs. It is revealed on several occasions that the Haruchai are a deeply passionate race, capable of swearing a lifetime's worth of service if sufficiently moved.
I see no use for a new class, especially one that is to fill a role already taken.
<Insert clever signature here>
Great to see someone appreciate a good homebrew :).
Mystic v3 should be official, nuff said.
It's here for people who want a bar-fighting street bruiser that loves a good scrap, and that draws power from their own strength, courage, and determination, not a magic force that flows through the universe, if you don't like it that's fine.
It doesn't step on any of the monk's ( or barbarian's for that matter ) toes and plays totally differently, just sayin' :).
Mystic v3 should be official, nuff said.
I'm not familiar with Sterling Vermin. Rather than going down a Google and possible patreon rabbit hole, I'll ask, what's that?
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I believe it's a 5e homebrew company, btw here's the link to the Pugilist Classes | Pugilist PDF compiled
Mystic v3 should be official, nuff said.
You take the Tavern Brawler Feat and you go to town with it. No need for a class. You can even do this with a Monk if that's what you wish.
Your link gives me an Internal Server Error by the way.
<Insert clever signature here>
Google "pugilist 5e" first result....
Also the closest you can get to a STR monk in 5e is a fighter with unarmed style which is a very poor version of the monk.
STR monk just doesn't work in 5e unfortunately.
The pugilist has some cool class stuff that isn't represented by any 5e subclass or class yet.
Whoops, sorry.
Mystic v3 should be official, nuff said.
Pugilist
This should work.
Mystic v3 should be official, nuff said.
Thanks to OptimusGrimus, I was able to read the Pugilist Class. I didn't read the entire thing. I got as far as the subclasses and skimmed the rest. They did an impressive amount of work. I would have to see one in actual play to judge it. The Class looks way too powerful to me, but as I said, I can't tell just from looking at it.
<Insert clever signature here>
None of my links are working :(.
Mystic v3 should be official, nuff said.
Just curious, which version did you read?, Version 2's Brace Up is a little iffy.
Mystic v3 should be official, nuff said.
STR monk is basically only really good for grappling, but pairs quite well with a few levels in Barbarian.
Unarmed fighting initiate with paladin could be quite fun, *Cracks knuckles with religious intent*.
Mystic v3 should be official, nuff said.
I'm not a fan narratively, in that an unarmed brute character should be mince when faced with moderately compatent sword weilders. The reach should mean a weapon user will always strike first, and as a brute type character speed is not the prime characteristic (unlike the agile monk's who rely on dodgy blows to close the distance). They would also miss out on cool magic weapons. I don't mind the idea for a bouncer or unarmed pit fighter, but for a dungeon delving adventurer it doesn't mesh as well. I'm not sure if this particular homebrew includes size consideration, but really body weight makes a big difference, so a gnome pugilist should be less powerful than a goliath one.
I think you're overthinking 5e a little too much on all of these points, it's supposed to be fun and simple, not realistic.
Mystic v3 should be official, nuff said.
What part did you find OP?, I'm interested in what you thought.
Mystic v3 should be official, nuff said.
All right. You asked. Here goes.
First thing that strikes me is that Pugilists are automatically proficient in improvised weapons. I'm not sure why one would ever bother, they do better damage without them, but perhaps they *really* need to use that silver candlestick holder to beat up a Werewolf. In any case it seems unreasonable for them to get a bonus to hit with anything at all times and in all cases.
Next, they start out with a minimum damage of 1D6. There Martial Arts... er... Fisticuffs Die starts at what a Monk gets at 5th level. Their version of the Monk's Unarmored Defense is based solely around Constitution, removing one of the big drawbacks Monks have, which is the need for multiple high stats. That makes Iron Chin better than Unarmored Defense while doing the same exact thing.
Moxie, their version of Ki Points, gives them roughly the same thing as Monks get. Again, I think they come out ahead a little. They get to heal themselves, Monks get to Disengage for free. Hard to judge this one.
Street Smart is handy I guess, and there is no equivalent for Monks. Bloodied But Unbowed is quite powerful and again, Monks get nothing like it.
Monks get Slow Fall and Deflect Missiles. Both of which are quite nice, but put together I don't see them as being as useful as Bloodied But Unbowed.
Dig Deep encroaches on the Barbarian Rage mechanics, but with the disadvantage of their Berserker Frenzy. Not good.
Haymaker is again more in the Barbarian neck of the woods, the disadvantage isn't nearly as bad as the benefit here. Automatic maximum damage is insane.
Fancy Footwork is much inferior to Evasion. Down But Not Out makes Bloodied But Unbowed even more powerful again. Unarmored Movement and the Improved version are nice, but somewhat situational, so the points are still on the Pugilist side.
The School Of Hard Knocks is better than Purity Of Body. The School gives you Advantage against two common and dangerous conditions, Stunned and Unconscious, and you get Resistance to Psychic damage on top of that. Monks get to be immune to Disease and Poison, which aren't much of a problem at 10th level in any game I have never heard of.
The Tongue Of Sun And Moon and Rabble Rouser is another one that is hard to judge. The effect of the Tongues spell at will and without limited number of uses is outstanding in a game where the DM is using Languages much, and totally useless if the Common Tongue gets you by. Advantage on Persuasion and Intimidation will be handy always. Point to Pugilist again I'd say.
I think Diamond Soul is better than Unbreakable. Especially since Monks get Evasion. Point to the Monks!
Herculean or Timeless Body? Herculean lets you break stuff and jump high. Timeless Body's main features is utterly useless in 5th Edition D&D, but the secondary feature, not having to eat or drink could be wonderful... if the DM is using those Encumbrance rules and sending you out on long trips in hostile environments. Very much a DM's call. No points awarded.
Fighting Spirit over Empty Body... Going to have to go with the Monk side again. The ability to recover from a whole lot of Exhaustion is pretty neato and vital if you abuse Dig Deep, but as I said, I don't like Dig Deep. Fighting Spirit lets you recover a whole whale of a lot of hit points and a bunch of you Ki... Moxie... but Empty Body lets you be invisible. It's expensive in terms of moxie/ki but Invisibility rocks. The Astral Projection effect seems fairly useless to me. You can't take anyone with you. How will you use that? Scrying? Ok I guess.
The Capstones for both classes are Peak Physical Condition and Perfect Self. Peak Condition lets you bypass the hard caps on maximum scores. Barbarian territory again. Perfect Self lets you recover Ki like crazy. Pugilist wins. Lots more times when higher scores will matter than more Ki points.
Monks are ever so much more speedy. Does that matter? I think it depends you the DM. Wide open spaces favor the Monk. How often will you be free to use all that movement?
I don't want to get into the subclasses. I didn't read the Pugilist ones and I still don't want to. Unless there's a Hexblade equivalent running around in there, the Pugilist is winning the war. I know Monks don't have a Hexbladeish subclass. No uber subclass that makes a one or two level dip into the class worth taking.
You want a nonmagical sort? Pugilist isn't that any more than a Monk is. Have fun, whatever you do.
<Insert clever signature here>
Those two things don't have to be mutually exclusive. You can absolutely run a comedic, slapstick adventure with ridiculous goblins, over the top steampunk inventions and a hilarious adventure hook, or you can go the other way and run high fantasy, story driven, bloody, brutal and dark adventure. There is no right or wrong, just different styles that are fun to different people. The idea of a pugilist subjectively doesn't work in my preferred style of game, but that is just my personal opinion.
From browsing the other discussions on this class most people seemed to agree that it was balanced, as long as you have the up to date version (not sure what changed but early versions were apparently OP). That change in version does make it hard to know when people complain, whether they are complaining about an out of date version or not. For example I saw people complain about the haymaker skill, but reading it I see no difference between it and a monk's stunning strike. Perhaps it was different in the past?
I see nothing game breaking about the build, but you can never be sure how skills will interact with all possibilities. Many DM's don't allow classes that aren't official, but if yours will and you can play with such a character I'd be interested to hear how you find the balance.