I would also like the rules for Martial characters to be spiced up. You shouldn't need to play a caster, or homebrew/improvise actions, to have a decent variety of options in combat.
I agree here, a lot. I think stuff like the battle master should be baseline for most martials with maneuvers for instance. But add some more to it. I also think that martials are largely dependant on feats to flesh out a theme or fighting style etc. where casters get to use specific spells that fit their theme, and as such I think martials should be balanced around getting both ASIs and feats at different intervals, such that they don't always have to choose between them.
Yep, that’s the problem with this idea: what at that point makes martials feel different from casters? That and, more importantly, a lot of new, casual, or roleplay-focused players I’ve met prefer martials for their simplicity. Many people enjoy simple, and taking that option away could really alienate them.
Although frankly I suspect that most advocating this have either not thought it through or just want to be more powerful without the limitations on spellcasting.
Personally, I don't want "to be more powerful". I just want some codified options beyond "hit the enemy with my <insert weapon>". It isn't about power, it's about fun. A martial character should be in their element in combat, but in many games, while they may be effective, they can be less exciting and fun to play.
I would also like the rules for Martial characters to be spiced up. You shouldn't need to play a caster, or homebrew/improvise actions, to have a decent variety of options in combat.
I agree here, a lot. I think stuff like the battle master should be baseline for most martials with maneuvers for instance. But add some more to it. I also think that martials are largely dependant on feats to flesh out a theme or fighting style etc. where casters get to use specific spells that fit their theme, and as such I think martials should be balanced around getting both ASIs and feats at different intervals, such that they don't always have to choose between them.
Again, then everyone should play casters! Casters should play spell based casters and melee 'maneuver' based casters.
Presumably such melee moves would need to be limited for balance purposes in number of uses. And the baseline capabilities of melees should presumably be nerfed to compensate for all this added utility....
Although frankly I suspect that most advocating this have either not thought it through or just want to be more powerful without the limitations on spellcasting.
Battlemaster maneuvers are already spell like.
Spells would still have a much larger utility space than maneuvers. But of course it should be balanced. I'd also like to see martials at high level rival casters at high level.
If you want the attacks to do anything more than your current 'hit the enemy' equivalent, you are increasing the character's power thereby. It means if you do not use the right maneuver that round, you are less effective, or your base damage is reduced to compensate so it all works out the same. But then why not simply roleplay it?
I do roleplay it. It's still doing the same thing round after round, though.
The point is that most martial characters have very few codified options in combat, the area they are supposed to be best at. They can flavour their attacks with RP, but they are still doing the exact same thing mechanically, and it takes a lot more work to flavour something than to pick from a list of options anyway.
Casters, on the other hand, have a list of spells they can cast as well as being able to take the standard actions martial characters can (albeit probably less effectively). They don't have to think about how they are going to flavour their action to make it different, because it's already a different spell to what they used the previous round.
How many maneuvers would you want that you are not still doing the same thing round after round? And what are you saying about casters, who are likely using a cantrip most rounds?
Exactly how complex do you need the mechanics to be, given you can simply describe your attack differently each round now and you find that insufficient?
I don't know "how many maneuvers[sic]". However, having some options would be nice.
Yes, I can describe my attack differently. I do so. It's a fun thing to do, but it is still mechanically identical to what I did last round, and the round before that, and most rounds in most combats all through the game. Eventually I do run out of new ways to say "I hit it with my sword", and even finding a new way to say it becomes less fun when almost every round is mechanically the same. I can end up reliant on others in the party to make the encounter fun, in precisely the area my character should shine.
Most casters have to use cantrips in most rounds, this is true. However, even when completely out of spell slots most still have more than one suitable cantrip available, plus all the standard actions. They have variety. They can choose, from one round to the next, to use Cantrip A, Cantrip B, one of a handful of levelled spells, or take one of the normal actions (attack, hide, dash etc). A martial character generally only has the normal actions, sometimes with a slight modifier.
Casters also can have class features that are actions beyond spell slots like Channel Divinity, Wildshape, At Will Invocations (Mask of Many Faces, Ascendant Step, etc....), Wizard features (Hypnotic Gaze, Momentary Stasis, etc...).
They get uses of this per day which also give variety and options.
What alternative are you presenting here that would work?
I'm not presenting an alternative. This thread is asking what I would like to see, and what I would like to see is more action variety available for non-casting classes. I don't know how it would be best to do it. I think the "martial casting" option you mentioned could work, or some form of manoeuvre-type system. There are various ways it could be done, and I'm not proposing any particular approach, just more variety of options.
As for "So play a caster!"... That doesn't really solve the issue of variety in a martial character at all, does it?
What alternative are you presenting here that would work?
I'm not presenting an alternative. This thread is asking what I would like to see, and what I would like to see is more action variety available for non-casting classes. I don't know how it would be best to do it. I think the "martial casting" option you mentioned could work, or some form of manoeuvre-type system. There are various ways it could be done, and I'm not proposing any particular approach, just more variety of options.
As for "So play a caster!"... That doesn't really solve the issue of variety in a martial character at all, does it?
And yet the problem remains. it is not a given that there is a solution that fits your wishes.
Casters also can have class features that are actions beyond spell slots like Channel Divinity, Wildshape, At Will Invocations (Mask of Many Faces, Ascendant Step, etc....), Wizard features (Hypnotic Gaze, Momentary Stasis, etc...).
They get uses of this per day which also give variety and options.
And so do Arcane Archers, or Battlemasters or Monks, with various Ki based options or most varieties of Rogue. Rangers and Paladins do get casting.
Sometimes combat is just 'Swing weapon (cast cantrip), get loot/xps.' If it is too often boring, well, good DM's are hard to find no matter the system.
So we have:
Attacks + Class Features for Martials
Cantrips + Class Features + Spellcasting for Casters
Cantrips + Class Features + Spellcasting for Casters
So yes there are more options for Casters.
I was not disputing Caster's having more options. I was saying that there are built in trade offs for that additional versatility. And even among casters you'll get hand wringing and jealousy and pointing to the advantages of any given caster class over the others, again ignoring the trade offs.
And even then, I have observed that more physical skills such as athletics or acrobatics, which are less likely for casters to be proficient in, as well as just raw strength itself, tend to be underused.
Casters are generally even better at those skills than martials too thanks to spells:
Enhance ability makes it so you get ADV on all checks for that particular ability.
Enlarge makes it so you can lift more than the paladin and grapple things he can't
Polymorph turns you into a Giant Ape which laughs at the barbarian's attempt to grapple a giant.
Class features like cutting words and the like make it so you can even make the enemies checks worse.
Overall once you get to 4th level spells it starts to go downhill for martials and never recovers.
My solution? PF2e does it well. Skill Feats that let you do amazing things regardless of class. Cool class feats that are not just attacks.
Cantrips + Class Features + Spellcasting for Casters
So yes there are more options for Casters.
I was not disputing Caster's having more options. I was saying that there are built in trade offs for that additional versatility. And even among casters you'll get hand wringing and jealousy and pointing to the advantages of any given caster class over the others, again ignoring the trade offs.
And even then, I have observed that more physical skills such as athletics or acrobatics, which are less likely for casters to be proficient in, as well as just raw strength itself, tend to be underused.
Casters are generally even better at those skills than martials too thanks to spells:
Enhance ability makes it so you get ADV on all checks for that particular ability.
Enlarge makes it so you can lift more than the paladin and grapple things he can't
Polymorph turns you into a Giant Ape which laughs at the barbarian's attempt to grapple a giant.
Class features like cutting words and the like make it so you can even make the enemies checks worse.
Overall once you get to 4th level spells it starts to go downhill for martials and never recovers.
My solution? PF2e does it well. Skill Feats that let you do amazing things regardless of class. Cool class feats that are not just attacks.
Really... so casters have unlimited jump spells? Have equal strength to strength build melees (even taking spells into account)? Cannot cast jump or expedient retreat on anyone other than themselves and would rather try to compensate for their weaknesses rather than boost the lead runner(s)?
Yes, could go back to 3.5e/pathfinder. Those in earlier D&D editions were feats. Now to put those back in they would be stepping on the toes of existing subclasses. And being feats, why exactly can't a caster in Pathfinder build towards such feats if they so wish?
No not unlimited spells but if you are saying you will encounter in a long rest with enough traps/physical challenges that you burn through all your spell slots then you are playing a much more hardcore version of the game than I am. As a cleric I have only run out of slots once maybe twice and even then I had CD to rely on and Guidance to help me through physical challenges.
As for the question about feats....
They can build towards these feats....anyone can is the point. Anyone can do cool things not just a caster.
PF2E has it so you can freely build the character you want with a wide variety of options that are based on not only class, but skills and heritiage too.
A goblin barbarian can take this but a goblin sorcerer can as well. This is my ideal situation where you have choices for your character that are not just reliant on what class/subclass you picked.
If you take a half-orc fighter in 5e you make a choice at 3 then at ASI thats it....you follow a static track with no real choices/options most of the time. PF2e at least makes every level up come with some options and improvements so you actually feel your character grow each level.
Casters feel this currently as most of them get a new spell known that they get to chose but martials just get what the class/subclass has said they get.
Reminder: this thread is more for discussing what people want to see in D&D. Not necessarily telling people that what they want to see is bad and they should feel bad over it.
Additional reminder: "Roleplay harder" is not a real rebuttal to systemic woes. A combat turn should take twenty seconds tops, and most of those should be resolving an action. I will actively tell a player to stop if they spend three minutes every combat round waxing soliloquent about the light gleaming off their treasured heirloom blade as it sings through the air in a precise, glorious Swallowtail Form stroke to - shut up and slash, guy. Combat is not the place to be droning on about your actions - it should be feeling fast, frenetic, and barely under control at best. If your attack takes longer than ten seconds to declare, you're declaring your action wrong. Decide, Declare, Do. Save the grandstanding for HDYWTDT moments.
Third, somewhat less gentle reminder: asking people for ideas of what they would like to see, then tearing down their "What I'd like to see is..." offerings for not being fully fleshed out, ready to implement rulesets is disingenuous and not okay. Many expansion-of-martial-combat ideas take the form of "I'd like a book dedicated to...", which indicates that design work on the part of Wizards of the Coast is desired. What they'd like to see is Wizards paying attention to martial combat, which many people find to be vastly oversimplified, too lackluster, and boring. The fact that many people find the stultifying, boneheaded-braindead 'simplicity' of martial combat, wherein your character has one UND PRECISELY ONE action they take every...single...combat round, from level 1 to level 20, refreshing or accessible does not negate the fact that many people find this fact enormously frustrating instead.
Fans of Extreme Combat Simplicity have the entire barbarian class, the entire ranger class, the entire rogue class, every last single fighter subclass not named "Battle Master" - to include Eldritch Knight, which should never be casting spells in combat unless they're defensive reaction spells - as well as a majority of paladin combat as the paladin's 'complexity' stems entirely from the head-crushing tactical complexity of "to Smite, or not to Smite?" Fans of more engaging martial combat which includes decisions beyond "where do I stand for the next [X] rounds until everything hittable has been hit to death?" have one subclass of one class. No matter how excellent Battlemasters are, at some point you're going to be tired of being forced to play the exact same-assed thing every single time you want martial combat to be about more than standing in a spot and hitting everything within five feet of that spot until the DM admits you won.
So stop it. People are allowed to want an optional, add-on rulebook for Better Martial Combat without having to be accused of being powergaming ******** who should just play spellcasters instead. That's not what we want. We want martial combat to have the faintest, tiniest shred of the depth it has in reality, and/or virtually any other game system both TT or V that includes martial combat.
There's a difference between raising concerns with a notion and trying to prompt further discussion and relentlessly hammering someone's idea while continually dismissing them and their desires.
We get it, Kotath. You don't think there's a problem with melee combat. Other people do. It's one of the most commonly requested things in threads like this, from many people. A lot of people want martial combat to be more engaging than it is, and telling them "just roleplay better!" or "just play a spellcaster" is disingenuous bullshit because that's not what they want. People still ask DDB to implement the Spell-Less Ranger thing a D&D dev did offhand as an example of homebrewing stuff a while back because they love the idea of a skilled martial warrior with cool tricks up their sleeve powered by nothing but talent, training, and physical excellence - and note, the Spell-Less Ranger substituted combat superiority and Maneuvers for spells.
People are allowed to want what they want. You're not really any better than the folks you're accusing of not thinking things through if all you do is rip apart their ideas and tell them to stop wanting what they want, ne?
Paladin would be the easiest martial class to do an elemental themed subclass for. Swapping damage type from Radiant to Fire, Cold etc for smites and tossing in some other bits. I would prefer it as a Fighter subclass, but I can see how Paladin could work.
Pity that the paladin chassis has smite as a class feature rather than subclass. Something like a necrotic smite would already suit many peoples idea of an oathbreaker. How would you work it as a fighter subclass?
I like the classes which allow you to pick an elemental at the start, such as draconic sorcerer or genielock.
If you can justify the elemental paladin thematically, it could be awesome. I’d call it the Oath of Balance, handling all the universe’s primal forces and keeping the balance between them. Think Jedi philosophy. “Darkness, light, peace, violence, life, death that feeds new life, and between it all a force. And inside me, that same force.” That fits Paladins and is a thematic gap that could use filling.
But knowing WotC, they’ll probably just make it a boring “Oath of the Elements” where the tenets are “likes elements” and “chills with genies.”
Yeah I think calling it something like oath of balance would mesh with the other subclass themes better. Though I doubt even that would get through considering how heavily they avoid arcane themes with paladin.
Here is a poorly crafted example of an Elemental Fighter based on the Battle Master. It is not meant to be a polished idea and it would need many more "Maneuvers" added to it, but it is an idea.
Elemental Fighter Archetype
Descriptive text that makes you want to play this subtype.
Elemental Gifts
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you learn Elemental Gifts that are fueled by special dice called Elemental Dice.
You gain three Gifts of your choice, which are detailed under “Gifts” below. Many Gifts enhance an attack in some way though some are defensive or utility in nature, however, you can use only one maneuver per attack. You gain two additional Gifts of your choice at 7th, 10th, and 15th level. Each time you learn new maneuvers, you can also replace one maneuver you know with a different one.
Elemental Dice. You have four Elemental dice, which are d8s. You expended the Elemental dice when you use them unless the power used says otherwise. You regain all your expended Elemental dice when you finish a short or long rest. You gain another Elemental die at 7th level and one more at 15th level.
Saving Throws. Some of your Elemental Gifts require your target to make a saving throw to resist the ability's effects. The saving throw DC is calculated as follows: Elemental Gift save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Constitution modifier.
Element Specialization
At 3rd level, Chose a damage type from Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, or Thunder. Attacks that you make that deal that damage type ignore resistance.
Improved Elemental Dice
At 10th level, your Elemental dice turn into d10s. At 18th level, they turn into d12s.
Improved Elemental Specialization
Starting at 15th level, your attacks ignore immunity for your chosen element type.
Improved Elemental Dice
At 18th level, your Elemental dice turn into d12s.
Elemental Gifts
Acid Strike
When you succeed on a Weapon Attack against a creature, you can expend one Elemental die and add the die to the damage roll as Acid damage. All attacks made against the target creature gain an additional 1d4 to hit until the start of your next turn.
Numbing Cold
When you succeed on a Weapon Attack against a creature, you can expend one Elemental die and add the die to the damage roll as Cold damage. The target creature has their movement halved until the end of their next turn.
Bursting Attack
When you succeed on a Weapon Attack against a creature, you can expend one Elemental die and deal Fire damage to the target of the attack as well as any creatures of your choice within 5 feet of the target of the attack.
Quick as Lightning
When you make a Weapon Attack against a creature, you can expend one Elemental die and deal Lightning damage to the target of the attack should you hit. Whether or not the attack hits, you may immediately move a distance equal to your base walking speed without provoking attacks of opportunity. This does not count against your normal movement.
Thundering Blow
When you succeed on a Weapon Attack against a creature, you can expend one Elemental die and deal Thunder damage to the target of the attack. The damaged creature must then succeed on a Strength saving throw or be pushed 10 feet directly away from you.
Here is a poorly crafted example of an Elemental Fighter based on the Battle Master. It is not meant to be a polished idea and it would need many more "Maneuvers" added to it, but it is an idea.
Elemental Fighter Archetype
Descriptive text that makes you want to play this subtype.
Elemental Gifts
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you learn Elemental Gifts that are fueled by special dice called Elemental Dice.
You gain three Gifts of your choice, which are detailed under “Gifts” below. Many Gifts enhance an attack in some way though some are defensive or utility in nature, however, you can use only one maneuver per attack. You gain two additional Gifts of your choice at 7th, 10th, and 15th level. Each time you learn new maneuvers, you can also replace one maneuver you know with a different one.
Elemental Dice. You have four Elemental dice, which are d8s. You expended the Elemental dice when you use them unless the power used says otherwise. You regain all your expended Elemental dice when you finish a short or long rest. You gain another Elemental die at 7th level and one more at 15th level.
Saving Throws. Some of your Elemental Gifts require your target to make a saving throw to resist the ability's effects. The saving throw DC is calculated as follows: Elemental Gift save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Constitution modifier.
Element Specialization
At 3rd level, Chose a damage type from Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, or Thunder. Attacks that you make that deal that damage type ignore resistance.
Improved Elemental Dice
At 10th level, your Elemental dice turn into d10s. At 18th level, they turn into d12s.
Improved Elemental Specialization
Starting at 15th level, your attacks ignore immunity for your chosen element type.
Improved Elemental Dice
At 18th level, your Elemental dice turn into d12s.
Elemental Gifts
Acid Strike
When you succeed on a Weapon Attack against a creature, you can expend one Elemental die and add the die to the damage roll as Acid damage. All attacks made against the target creature gain an additional 1d4 to hit until the start of your next turn.
Numbing Cold
When you succeed on a Weapon Attack against a creature, you can expend one Elemental die and add the die to the damage roll as Cold damage. The target creature has their movement halved until the end of their next turn.
Bursting Attack
When you succeed on a Weapon Attack against a creature, you can expend one Elemental die and deal Fire damage to the target of the attack as well as any creatures of your choice within 5 feet of the target of the attack.
Quick as Lightning
When you make a Weapon Attack against a creature, you can expend one Elemental die and deal Lightning damage to the target of the attack should you hit. Whether or not the attack hits, you may immediately move a distance equal to your base walking speed without provoking attacks of opportunity. This does not count against your normal movement.
Thundering Blow
When you succeed on a Weapon Attack against a creature, you can expend one Elemental die and deal Thunder damage to the target of the attack. The damaged creature must then succeed on a Strength saving throw or be pushed 10 feet directly away from you.
I really like this! I feel like it could definitely work, just needs some polishing.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
This isn't actually a signature, just something I copy and paste onto the bottom of all my posts. Or is it? Yep, it is. Or is it..? I’m a hobbit, and the master cranial imploder of the "Oops, I Accidently Destroyed Someone's Brain" cult. Extended sig. I'm actually in Limbo, it says I'm in Mechanus because that's where I get my WiFi from. Please don't tell the modrons, they're still angry from the 'Spawning Stone' fiasco. No connection to Dragonslayer8 other than knowing them in real life.
I would like to see monster stat blocks that can be varied to different CRs and tiers of play. I do not think this is something that EVERY monster in 5e needs (not even the majority of them to be honest), but for certain "big bad" monsters or important NPCs, I think it would be interesting to, as a DM, be presented a stat block that can be slightly tuned to fit where in my campaign I want to include them without having to reverse engineer the entire process from scratch. I think with the way they have introduced variable stat blocks for pets and summoned creatures, the groundwork is there
Haven't fully fleshed out the idea, but it might look something like this
These things all increase as the tier of play increases: Hit Dice and HP max, Proficiency Bonus, Number of attacks and/or damage of attacks
Tier 1: Fairly basic monster stat block with a unique action
Take Strahd for example. In the CoS campaign he is basically set to be functional in Tiers 1 & 2 of play. With VRGtR, what if I want to do a full Ravenloft campaign and want Strahd to appear in Tier 3 or Tier 4? I feel like dragons kind of have this already if you distinguish between the different age groups of the dragons, but what I am imagining is a single stat block that encompasses everything which the DM can work with and simplify based on what tier of play they are using the monster in
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews!Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
I would like to see monster stat blocks that can be varied to different CRs and tiers of play. I do not think this is something that EVERY monster in 5e needs (not even the majority of them to be honest), but for certain "big bad" monsters or important NPCs, I think it would be interesting to, as a DM, be presented a stat block that can be slightly tuned to fit where in my campaign I want to include them without having to reverse engineer the entire process from scratch. I think with the way they have introduced variable stat blocks for pets and summoned creatures, the groundwork is there
Haven't fully fleshed out the idea, but it might look something like this
These things all increase as the tier of play increases: Hit Dice and HP max, Proficiency Bonus, Number of attacks and/or damage of attacks
Tier 1: Fairly basic monster stat block with a unique action
Take Strahd for example. In the CoS campaign he is basically set to be functional in Tiers 1 & 2 of play. With VRGtR, what if I want to do a full Ravenloft campaign and want Strahd to appear in Tier 3 or Tier 4? I feel like dragons kind of have this already if you distinguish between the different age groups of the dragons, but what I am imagining is a single stat block that encompasses everything which the DM can work with and simplify based on what tier of play they are using the monster in
I like this! It would be very useful.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
This isn't actually a signature, just something I copy and paste onto the bottom of all my posts. Or is it? Yep, it is. Or is it..? I’m a hobbit, and the master cranial imploder of the "Oops, I Accidently Destroyed Someone's Brain" cult. Extended sig. I'm actually in Limbo, it says I'm in Mechanus because that's where I get my WiFi from. Please don't tell the modrons, they're still angry from the 'Spawning Stone' fiasco. No connection to Dragonslayer8 other than knowing them in real life.
I would love to see more solid rules for mounts and mounted combat, although it is kind of niche. My players found RAW pretty unintuitive and unsatisfying. I don't have any really good suggestions for how to improve it though.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I agree here, a lot. I think stuff like the battle master should be baseline for most martials with maneuvers for instance. But add some more to it. I also think that martials are largely dependant on feats to flesh out a theme or fighting style etc. where casters get to use specific spells that fit their theme, and as such I think martials should be balanced around getting both ASIs and feats at different intervals, such that they don't always have to choose between them.
Altrazin Aghanes - Wizard/Fighter
Varpulis Windhowl - Fighter
Skolson Demjon - Cleric/Fighter
Yep, that’s the problem with this idea: what at that point makes martials feel different from casters? That and, more importantly, a lot of new, casual, or roleplay-focused players I’ve met prefer martials for their simplicity. Many people enjoy simple, and taking that option away could really alienate them.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
Personally, I don't want "to be more powerful". I just want some codified options beyond "hit the enemy with my <insert weapon>". It isn't about power, it's about fun. A martial character should be in their element in combat, but in many games, while they may be effective, they can be less exciting and fun to play.
Battlemaster maneuvers are already spell like.
Spells would still have a much larger utility space than maneuvers. But of course it should be balanced. I'd also like to see martials at high level rival casters at high level.
Altrazin Aghanes - Wizard/Fighter
Varpulis Windhowl - Fighter
Skolson Demjon - Cleric/Fighter
I do roleplay it. It's still doing the same thing round after round, though.
The point is that most martial characters have very few codified options in combat, the area they are supposed to be best at. They can flavour their attacks with RP, but they are still doing the exact same thing mechanically, and it takes a lot more work to flavour something than to pick from a list of options anyway.
Casters, on the other hand, have a list of spells they can cast as well as being able to take the standard actions martial characters can (albeit probably less effectively). They don't have to think about how they are going to flavour their action to make it different, because it's already a different spell to what they used the previous round.
I don't know "how many maneuvers[sic]". However, having some options would be nice.
Yes, I can describe my attack differently. I do so. It's a fun thing to do, but it is still mechanically identical to what I did last round, and the round before that, and most rounds in most combats all through the game. Eventually I do run out of new ways to say "I hit it with my sword", and even finding a new way to say it becomes less fun when almost every round is mechanically the same. I can end up reliant on others in the party to make the encounter fun, in precisely the area my character should shine.
Most casters have to use cantrips in most rounds, this is true. However, even when completely out of spell slots most still have more than one suitable cantrip available, plus all the standard actions. They have variety. They can choose, from one round to the next, to use Cantrip A, Cantrip B, one of a handful of levelled spells, or take one of the normal actions (attack, hide, dash etc). A martial character generally only has the normal actions, sometimes with a slight modifier.
"Rival" sounds a bit adversarial, but otherwise a salient point. Martial class abilities don't really compare to spell options at higher levels.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Casters also can have class features that are actions beyond spell slots like Channel Divinity, Wildshape, At Will Invocations (Mask of Many Faces, Ascendant Step, etc....), Wizard features (Hypnotic Gaze, Momentary Stasis, etc...).
They get uses of this per day which also give variety and options.
I'm not presenting an alternative. This thread is asking what I would like to see, and what I would like to see is more action variety available for non-casting classes. I don't know how it would be best to do it. I think the "martial casting" option you mentioned could work, or some form of manoeuvre-type system. There are various ways it could be done, and I'm not proposing any particular approach, just more variety of options.
As for "So play a caster!"... That doesn't really solve the issue of variety in a martial character at all, does it?
So we have:
Attacks + Class Features for Martials
Cantrips + Class Features + Spellcasting for Casters
So yes there are more options for Casters.
Casters are generally even better at those skills than martials too thanks to spells:
Enhance ability makes it so you get ADV on all checks for that particular ability.
Enlarge makes it so you can lift more than the paladin and grapple things he can't
Polymorph turns you into a Giant Ape which laughs at the barbarian's attempt to grapple a giant.
Class features like cutting words and the like make it so you can even make the enemies checks worse.
Overall once you get to 4th level spells it starts to go downhill for martials and never recovers.
My solution? PF2e does it well. Skill Feats that let you do amazing things regardless of class. Cool class feats that are not just attacks.
Examples: Scare to Death, Whirling Throw, Debilitating Shot
No not unlimited spells but if you are saying you will encounter in a long rest with enough traps/physical challenges that you burn through all your spell slots then you are playing a much more hardcore version of the game than I am. As a cleric I have only run out of slots once maybe twice and even then I had CD to rely on and Guidance to help me through physical challenges.
As for the question about feats....
They can build towards these feats....anyone can is the point. Anyone can do cool things not just a caster.
PF2E has it so you can freely build the character you want with a wide variety of options that are based on not only class, but skills and heritiage too.
As a goblin you can get feats that eventually let you take no fall damage ever and bounce like a bouncy ball....
A goblin barbarian can take this but a goblin sorcerer can as well. This is my ideal situation where you have choices for your character that are not just reliant on what class/subclass you picked.
If you take a half-orc fighter in 5e you make a choice at 3 then at ASI thats it....you follow a static track with no real choices/options most of the time. PF2e at least makes every level up come with some options and improvements so you actually feel your character grow each level.
Casters feel this currently as most of them get a new spell known that they get to chose but martials just get what the class/subclass has said they get.
Reminder: this thread is more for discussing what people want to see in D&D. Not necessarily telling people that what they want to see is bad and they should feel bad over it.
Additional reminder: "Roleplay harder" is not a real rebuttal to systemic woes. A combat turn should take twenty seconds tops, and most of those should be resolving an action. I will actively tell a player to stop if they spend three minutes every combat round waxing soliloquent about the light gleaming off their treasured heirloom blade as it sings through the air in a precise, glorious Swallowtail Form stroke to - shut up and slash, guy. Combat is not the place to be droning on about your actions - it should be feeling fast, frenetic, and barely under control at best. If your attack takes longer than ten seconds to declare, you're declaring your action wrong. Decide, Declare, Do. Save the grandstanding for HDYWTDT moments.
Third, somewhat less gentle reminder: asking people for ideas of what they would like to see, then tearing down their "What I'd like to see is..." offerings for not being fully fleshed out, ready to implement rulesets is disingenuous and not okay. Many expansion-of-martial-combat ideas take the form of "I'd like a book dedicated to...", which indicates that design work on the part of Wizards of the Coast is desired. What they'd like to see is Wizards paying attention to martial combat, which many people find to be vastly oversimplified, too lackluster, and boring. The fact that many people find the stultifying, boneheaded-braindead 'simplicity' of martial combat, wherein your character has one UND PRECISELY ONE action they take every...single...combat round, from level 1 to level 20, refreshing or accessible does not negate the fact that many people find this fact enormously frustrating instead.
Fans of Extreme Combat Simplicity have the entire barbarian class, the entire ranger class, the entire rogue class, every last single fighter subclass not named "Battle Master" - to include Eldritch Knight, which should never be casting spells in combat unless they're defensive reaction spells - as well as a majority of paladin combat as the paladin's 'complexity' stems entirely from the head-crushing tactical complexity of "to Smite, or not to Smite?" Fans of more engaging martial combat which includes decisions beyond "where do I stand for the next [X] rounds until everything hittable has been hit to death?" have one subclass of one class. No matter how excellent Battlemasters are, at some point you're going to be tired of being forced to play the exact same-assed thing every single time you want martial combat to be about more than standing in a spot and hitting everything within five feet of that spot until the DM admits you won.
So stop it. People are allowed to want an optional, add-on rulebook for Better Martial Combat without having to be accused of being powergaming ******** who should just play spellcasters instead. That's not what we want. We want martial combat to have the faintest, tiniest shred of the depth it has in reality, and/or virtually any other game system both TT or V that includes martial combat.
Please do not contact or message me.
There's a difference between raising concerns with a notion and trying to prompt further discussion and relentlessly hammering someone's idea while continually dismissing them and their desires.
We get it, Kotath. You don't think there's a problem with melee combat. Other people do. It's one of the most commonly requested things in threads like this, from many people. A lot of people want martial combat to be more engaging than it is, and telling them "just roleplay better!" or "just play a spellcaster" is disingenuous bullshit because that's not what they want. People still ask DDB to implement the Spell-Less Ranger thing a D&D dev did offhand as an example of homebrewing stuff a while back because they love the idea of a skilled martial warrior with cool tricks up their sleeve powered by nothing but talent, training, and physical excellence - and note, the Spell-Less Ranger substituted combat superiority and Maneuvers for spells.
People are allowed to want what they want. You're not really any better than the folks you're accusing of not thinking things through if all you do is rip apart their ideas and tell them to stop wanting what they want, ne?
Please do not contact or message me.
Here is a poorly crafted example of an Elemental Fighter based on the Battle Master. It is not meant to be a polished idea and it would need many more "Maneuvers" added to it, but it is an idea.
Elemental Fighter Archetype
Descriptive text that makes you want to play this subtype.
Elemental Gifts
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you learn Elemental Gifts that are fueled by special dice called Elemental Dice.
Element Specialization
At 3rd level, Chose a damage type from Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, or Thunder. Attacks that you make that deal that damage type ignore resistance.
Improved Elemental Dice
At 10th level, your Elemental dice turn into d10s. At 18th level, they turn into d12s.
Improved Elemental Specialization
Starting at 15th level, your attacks ignore immunity for your chosen element type.
Improved Elemental Dice
At 18th level, your Elemental dice turn into d12s.
Elemental Gifts
Acid Strike
When you succeed on a Weapon Attack against a creature, you can expend one Elemental die and add the die to the damage roll as Acid damage. All attacks made against the target creature gain an additional 1d4 to hit until the start of your next turn.
Numbing Cold
When you succeed on a Weapon Attack against a creature, you can expend one Elemental die and add the die to the damage roll as Cold damage. The target creature has their movement halved until the end of their next turn.
Bursting Attack
When you succeed on a Weapon Attack against a creature, you can expend one Elemental die and deal Fire damage to the target of the attack as well as any creatures of your choice within 5 feet of the target of the attack.
Quick as Lightning
When you make a Weapon Attack against a creature, you can expend one Elemental die and deal Lightning damage to the target of the attack should you hit. Whether or not the attack hits, you may immediately move a distance equal to your base walking speed without provoking attacks of opportunity. This does not count against your normal movement.
Thundering Blow
When you succeed on a Weapon Attack against a creature, you can expend one Elemental die and deal Thunder damage to the target of the attack. The damaged creature must then succeed on a Strength saving throw or be pushed 10 feet directly away from you.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I really like this! I feel like it could definitely work, just needs some polishing.
This isn't actually a signature, just something I copy and paste onto the bottom of all my posts. Or is it? Yep, it is. Or is it..? I’m a hobbit, and the master cranial imploder of the "Oops, I Accidently Destroyed Someone's Brain" cult. Extended sig. I'm actually in Limbo, it says I'm in Mechanus because that's where I get my WiFi from. Please don't tell the modrons, they're still angry from the 'Spawning Stone' fiasco.
No connection to Dragonslayer8 other than knowing them in real life.
I would like to see monster stat blocks that can be varied to different CRs and tiers of play. I do not think this is something that EVERY monster in 5e needs (not even the majority of them to be honest), but for certain "big bad" monsters or important NPCs, I think it would be interesting to, as a DM, be presented a stat block that can be slightly tuned to fit where in my campaign I want to include them without having to reverse engineer the entire process from scratch. I think with the way they have introduced variable stat blocks for pets and summoned creatures, the groundwork is there
Haven't fully fleshed out the idea, but it might look something like this
These things all increase as the tier of play increases: Hit Dice and HP max, Proficiency Bonus, Number of attacks and/or damage of attacks
Tier 1: Fairly basic monster stat block with a unique action
Tier 2: Introduce reactions, bonus actions, and possibly legendary actions/ legendary resistance
Tier 3: Introduce 1-2 new abilities, buff damage resistances/immunities
Tier 4: Increase legendary resistances, introduce mythic actions.
Take Strahd for example. In the CoS campaign he is basically set to be functional in Tiers 1 & 2 of play. With VRGtR, what if I want to do a full Ravenloft campaign and want Strahd to appear in Tier 3 or Tier 4? I feel like dragons kind of have this already if you distinguish between the different age groups of the dragons, but what I am imagining is a single stat block that encompasses everything which the DM can work with and simplify based on what tier of play they are using the monster in
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
I like this! It would be very useful.
This isn't actually a signature, just something I copy and paste onto the bottom of all my posts. Or is it? Yep, it is. Or is it..? I’m a hobbit, and the master cranial imploder of the "Oops, I Accidently Destroyed Someone's Brain" cult. Extended sig. I'm actually in Limbo, it says I'm in Mechanus because that's where I get my WiFi from. Please don't tell the modrons, they're still angry from the 'Spawning Stone' fiasco.
No connection to Dragonslayer8 other than knowing them in real life.
I would love to see more solid rules for mounts and mounted combat, although it is kind of niche. My players found RAW pretty unintuitive and unsatisfying. I don't have any really good suggestions for how to improve it though.