You're arguing a technicality that distracts from the point of the thread. Common courtesy is the obvious starting point, yes. Davyd, Ophidimancer, myself, and others are arguing that awareness is critical and true equality begins with acknowledging and celebrating - or at least not denigrating - differences.
I'm going to quote something Davyd said, because it strikes to the heart of this.
... Diversity is a principle you keep in mind; you should be cognisant of the diversity of your environment and not just accept that your surroundings represent a 'norm'.
Inclusivity is something you practice; you should act in a way to not make people feel unwelcome or excluded just because of who they are. ...
Inclusivity is not "I'm going to treat everyone the same way, as if they're the same person, because that's equal." It is not adhering to the idea of ignoring or not caring about differences, nor is "I treat everyone with the same basic courtesy until they give me reason otherwise" any sort of real argument.
Inclusivity is "I'm going to treat whoever I interact with like they're a different person than I am, with a different experience of life - and that's awesome." It's the understanding that a black lesbian trans woman practitioner of vodoun from Guatemala is not only an entirely different person than Mr. Brohampton the South Virginian Protestant, but that neither of those two people, neither of those two sets of experiences, are intrinsically more or less valuable than the other.
You're fine. I got firm in my previous post mostly because this board has an unfortunate tendency to allow threads to get bogged down in irrelevant technicality side tangents, and myself and several other posters have decided to start being stricter about spotting common derailing trends and calling them out. If the other person corrects? No issue.
It is a constant - and I do mean a constant - with discussions of this sort that people feel a need to defend themselves or prove their decency and open-mindedness. These threads, by their fundamental nature, emphasize the life experiences of nontypical folk, which can leave normal, ordinary white cishet folks feeling pushed out of the picture. As if their own experience is being denigrated in turn simply because there's nothing 'extra' about them.
There's nothing necessarily wrong with simply treating everyone the same, without regard for race, gender, sexuality, status, or the like. It's better than many alternatives. I've had to explain to so, sooo many people that no - they're not Terrible Horrible People for not being aware of these sorts of things. It was simply outside their life experience until someone else opted to expand their awareness.
One easy examply - I was not aware of the term 'enby' until Ophidimancer used it in this thread. I had to go look it up and figure out what it meant, because that term was outside my experience. The English language is not well equipped to talk about issues of gender, so the LGBT+ community is inventing new language every day to help patch that. Learning those terms helps me better communicate with people and avoid stepping on buttons, so I like finding them when I do. Doesn't mean I was actively trying to Do Bad By People by not knowing or using those terms, it simply meant I hadn't experienced them yet.
For those who were also unaware of the term but did not immediately go Google it, beeteedubs: "Enby" is the phonetic pronunciation of the abbreviation N.B., for 'non-binary'. It's often considered a useful neutral term to substitute for 'man' or 'woman' that conveys information more effectively than 'person', as it indicates gender identity the same way 'man' or 'woman' can/does. It's a neat term, one I'm glad to add to my lexicon, and a great example of the evolving language growing up around the LGBT+ space.
I’ve been DMing for about three years now, and my tables have been diverse in regards to people I’ve played with. White, Black - Gay, straight - Christian, Muslim, Atheist -, etc. The way I see it, all are welcome at my table regardless of lifestyle or belief or what ever else as long as they’re respectful and kind to others. Myself being a straight Christian, and a lot of my friends not sharing those aspects, I’m perfectly fine with anyone being at my games and enjoying our shared hobby.
I didn't mention sexual orientation in my earlier post, simply because it often doesn't come up - especially in this online era, though obviously that applies to ethnicity as well. A not insignificant chunk of my D&D experience has been through PbP as well, the last couple of years of 3rd edition and the first of 4th (still playing 3.5 in that campaign). Most of the people I played in person with for long enough I have at least an idea of their orientation, but even with those not all of them. The online folks, the ones I played only one short campaign with and didn't see anymore after, and in some cases the ones that hadn't figured it all out yet - I often don't know. It's not typically something that comes up early on unless you meet the partner(s) as well, and it's certainly not something I'm going to be asking about unless there are some very unusual circumstances. I've had one player tell me he was gay when I invited him to join my group because he thought I should know beforehand, but that was back in the '90s and that felt odd even back then - though on an intellectual level I could certainly understand the reasons he may have had.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I've played at tables of different composition. My current home game is pretty homogenous (3 white cis-dudes and my white cis-daughter). But I've played at diverse tables. I really don't think it matters how diverse or homogenous an individual table is - tables come together for all manner of reasons.
If I were starting a game online with complete strangers I would take diversity into account when building up a group, not in a box ticking/tokenism way but I would make a strong effort to avoid a homogeneous group vis a vis gender identity, race, sexual orientation, class, or neurodiversity.
I respect your intentions here, but how would you do that or, more accurately, how would you engineer that? I mean sure, online DMs these days can be as selective as say a college admissions officer (whose principles you're reflecting consciously or unconsciously) when it comes to who they admit into their games. And sure while the college admissions process does seem to solicit (with some debate within the admissions profession) very intimate portraits from applicants so much that writing coaches exist for a performative genre and "one's future" does encourage someone to put a lot on the line in their personal statement for an educational opportunity or even some jobs (particularly within creative industries and arts). But for a game, how much are you going to ask, and what happens where your indicators suggest strong player (I'm assuming you'd vet with something beyond diversity demographic markers) but they say to you, "You know, a stranger on the internet asking me some of these questions crosses some intimacy thresholds so I'm not going to answer them."
That's why I said "building up a group" and not "starting" one.
Obviously, the first step would be to eliminate any applicants with whom I don't want to play with, for any range of serious (e.g. someone is clearly problematic from the get-go) or functional (e.g. time zone issues) or silly reasons (they want to play a homebrew class I think is ridiculous) before we even have a session zero, that's what happens when you have a choice and when you owe nothing/have no shared history with the people you're playing with and I don't think anyone would begrudge a DM that.
I wouldn't hand out a survey asking people what various groups they identify with, that would be the box-ticking I said I'd want to avoid. I would, however, ask them how they feel about playing with members of groups they don't belong to, make it clear that my game not only welcomes but actively hopes to have people from all walks of life (and I find that merely stating something like that tends to be enough to drive away from the kind of people I'm hoping to avoid from the getgo).
And frankly, I see no problem with having six applicants for four spots who all clear the minimum requirements and not going with the top four in order to have a more inclusive group, If person X is a better roleplayer and has a better knowledge of the rules than person Y but they both are good people and picking person Y would yield a more diverse group, I frankly have zero qualms over excluding person X. They're only missing out on a game, not a job.
This is why I have to say the college admission metaphor doesn't travel well for me, because the consequences of not getting into a D&D game you wanted to are negligible.
It would be incredibly naive of me to assume that's enough, however. That would just be a starting point. Over time, as people come and go, and as I get to know them better, is when actualizing a diverse group would properly take shape.
Further curious whether you outlined this practice as something you'd do online because it's the only way you'd see yourself playing with randoms or this is a vetting practice you'd be uncomfortable doing if the game met at a physical table (maybe something associated with the local game store, or a community center, or a social club, or ooo, what about a convention?).
Playing online is simply the only way I'd play with strangers, and even then I might be aprehensive. I've never been to a convention, played at a store or community center, and I don't see myself ever doing so given my social anxiety and issues talking to people generally.
Again you're speaking like an admissions councilor, who I do believe engages in such considerations in sincere service of the good intention of building a community. There's value to both cohort and broader culture in such admissions and hiring processes. However, I don't think this kinda technocratic approach is really viable for tables because the nature of the work is very different. It's a presumption that people bring some sort of authentic identity to a table ... in a game which is more readily played by broadly accessible tropes and many options to go a literally inhuman route in your characterization. If your game was somehow grounded in reflection of real world cultural exchange (which does happen, even some contributors to WotC products have claimed to have tried to do so though found those aspect surprisingly excised during the editorial process) sure, but while there are some passionate players who want to see that sort of play I'd say the main thrust of D&D official production and most of the supporting industry is overwhelmingly escapist. And I write that as someone who actually likes playing games that wind up topically resonating to the degree player comfort zones allow.
I don't see the conflict between wanting a diverse set of players and having an escapist game. Personally, I like both approaches. I've run a campaign set in a homebrew world where racism (both the fantastical variety and between humans) was no longer an issue and others where several of the real world's real social ills were front and center through thinly veiled metaphors.
As an aside one of the female players in my mixed groups is playing a male character and one of the male players is playing a female character and both RP it very well and very respectfully and I can’t help but think it’s due to the diversity of the group. In contrast when one of the players in the all male group plays a female character it’s offensive and sexist and I struggle with curbing that behavior.
Boys will be boys with latent misogyny happens if a player and DM allows it to happen. And, yes, a certain toxic masculinity style of play that indulged in misogyny is in the background of D&D though I'd say the hobby is actually more ahead of the curve in addressing that than the U.S. culture at large. However the presumption that a cis-het male group would play women PCs in some sort of denigrating fashion is asserting universals out of presumptions and is actually a sort of "just so" essentialist narrative that your play style is supposed to rise above. I've seen what I call immaturity and insensity exhibited by all sorts. The good groups aren't intentionally diverse recipes. Rather, welcoming in a way that encourages brave gaming comes from actually getting to know players, not the presumption that marked differences is simply enriching, and that "getting to know" is a vulnerable moment for all parties in the (table building) encounter.
You're right about the DM allowing it to happen. Not because I condone it, but because I am admittedly not assertive enough to address it effectively. I recognize that this makes me complicit; I am essentially letting something I believe is wrong go on because it is uncomfortable to enter into a confrontation especially when there's no easy out of "your actions are offending your fellow players" when the entire group is on the same page and the DM gets branded a PC buzzkill. So I do my pathetic "guys that's not cool" protestation and we move on. I'm not proud of it but it's what happens. I firmly believe having a diverse group is one where such a situation doesn't occur.
I have no interest in educating people about good gender politics through D&D. Whether a player's instinct is to be disrespectful but they end up self-censoring due to the group's diversity or whether they are genuinely a kind, respectful, and empathetic person is not my concern. This is doubly true if they're a stranger. I care about consequences not intentions and have no delusions about how much positive change my actions can actually bring about (very little). I care about doing my best as a matter of principle, but I also think the worst in humanity tends to win; I merely wish to escape that fact when I am engaging in my hobby about dragons and wizards. Yes, I am creating a bubble and no I don't see a problem with it.
Finally, I never intended for my throwaway anecdotal evidence to come off as a universal assertion. Maybe there are heterogeneous groups where everything is great and diverse ones that are total disasters; there probably are. My guess is that more often than not it's the other way around but I've not studied the matter, I'm simply going by what I've personally experienced both in D&D and life generally.
Our table has a female (my daughter) and a black guy (well, half, I guess since his mom is white) myself, my son and my daughter's boyfriend, who are all the typical pasty white dudes. We all get along as well as ANY other group possibly could and the only ethnic stuff that ever comes out is Ty (daughter's friend) who constantly runs the line "It's because I'm black, isn't it?" when anything happens to him. We all laugh a lot, as everyone knows it's his ting, his gag and he only does it with those he trusts, which to ME, is awesome, to BE one of the people he trusts.
I know so far as how we treat people (my family) we get a lot of results showing we must be doing things ok. We as a family, have a number of sexual orientations, ethnicity and such, that we count as friends. Every person we meet is gauged on how they are, not WHO they identify as. None of us care what a person's sexual orientation is, what gender they identify as (we previously thought the 2 to be one, but have been properly informed) We are all interested in someone's background if from another country or region, as we adore hearing and learning new ways and customs and so forth.
I feel proud as a parent, to see my kids treat everyone the way THEY would like to be treated. We are open and welcoming to all and we happily join in when these folks start with the silliness of "racist" remarks about themselves, as we appreciate and understand just how inane most of it is. Again, our mantra is to treat others as you wish to be treated. makes life pretty simple, we feel.
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
This is something I think about a lot. I started playing and subsequently DMing about three years ago and I started with all of my high school friends (since we were all big nerds and grew up playing MMOs with one another). So my tables started off as, and surprisingly going forward have always been majority black and poc.
It wasn’t until like maybe a year ago when I started hopping in to watch the various games on the twitch dnd directory did I remember that yeah dnd is still something that’s dominated by a certain demographic
I started playing with friends who were: white/mixed (myself), lily white (dork), Black, Japanese-American, and mixed (Black dad, white mom). As we got older, my Black friends got a lot more grief for being DnD dorks than the rest of us, mainly from other Black guys, so stopped playing earlier. By high school, playing DnD table top was pure dork land, and certain to be mocked, so we gravitated to computer/net versions.
When I got back into playing later, I did so with friends who were girls. They were more into the role-playing/improv acting aspect (one was kind of an early cosplayer I guess). Women/female players weren't very common... I wouldn't say the regular players were diverse, but more diverse than previously. It wasn't really considered polite to pry about other players personal lives (the IRL rule), so I couldn't say who was gay or straight or in the closet or out.
Don't you think all video games have a target demographic and market? (And most have a heavy regional bias, independent of gender & race). I mean how many hard-bitten noir games have most of the characters speaking with LA accents? (Kind of hard to take the Valley Guy voice over actor seriously as a Demon Lord, right?)
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“Desitutus ventis, remos adhibe” When the Winds fail you, row.
Quite disheartening to see even moderators pushing a left wing political agenda of "Diversity and Inclusivity" within these forums. Stop judging people based on immutable characteristics like race, gender, sexual orientation etc. None of those things have any bearing on D&D what so ever, and if you think they do then you are the person with a problem.
It goes without saying that every single person here would be against anyone being excluded from a game or treated differently based on something they can't control, if the thread was meant to be just that then I agree with it.
I'm black and I would be horrified turning up at a table run by some people in this thread as they proceeded to try to correct some sort of perceived imbalance that they have decided exists against me, by treating me differently. I get that its coming from a good place and they are good people trying to do something they think is good, but in practice it is the opposite of inclusive.
These types of people would have made white people sit at the back of the bus for a while to try to balance things out instead of just removing race from seating rules on buses.
Quite disheartening to see even moderators pushing a left wing political agenda of "Diversity and Inclusivity" within these forums.
I don't think it's a political or left wing agenda. It's a compassionate one, it's an open minded one, and yes it's probably somewhat of a PR minded one as well, but what isn't these days?
These types of people would have made white people sit at the back of the bus for a while to try to balance things out instead of just removing race from seating rules on buses.
While I have seen some things along those lines in this thread, I don't think it's been the majority, nor has it been any of the moderators and definitely not the official voice of the staff as seen in the Beyond article about inclusion. I'll quote Davyd here in what I think is the relevant attitude:
There's an important distinction between diversity and inclusivity
Diversity is a principle you keep in mind; you should be cognisant of the diversity of your environment and not just accept that your surroundings represent a 'norm'.
Inclusivity is something you practice; you should act in a way to not make people feel unwelcome or excluded just because of who they are.
It's principle and praxis. Through inclusivity, you create environments where diversity is given room to flourish and grow. You don't force diversity, but you also shouldn't hinder it either.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Quite disheartening to see even moderators pushing a left wing political agenda of "Diversity and Inclusivity" within these forums.
I don't think it's a political or left wing agenda. It's a compassionate one, it's an open minded one, and yes it's probably somewhat of a PR minded one as well, but what isn't these days?
Appreciate you taking the time to respond to my rant :), I perhaps feel a bit too strongly about this to be able to constructively contribute in the way I would like. I have no doubt at all that people making these arguments would agree with you that they are just being compassionate, it doesn't stop it from also being political.
Diversity and Inclusivity come from the exact same mind set of things like quotas, affirmative action, equal representation. I obviously disagree with all of those things as I see them as 'sitting white people at the back of the bus' type solutions, but that is not the point. This ideology makes up what has recently been termed 'woke culture' and is certainly a political agenda being pushed by some on the left. The point is that we all come to this game we love to escape and not have to deal with things like real world politics.
Section 2e of the forum guidelines explains that religious or political topics are not to be discussed hence me being disheartened that even moderators are engaging in this sort of topic.
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Here, take a pair of these frog's lips. I hear they are a delicacy around these parts.
Section 2e of the forum guidelines explains that religious or political topics are not to be discussed hence me being disheartened that even moderators are engaging in this sort of topic.
Promoting the idea that D&D should be welcoming, safe, and inclusive for all people, and that diversity is something that benefits the game, is not a political ideology, it is a principle of compassion and decency, one that D&D Beyond and Fandom take very seriously. As such, it does not violate site rules.
The decision that some may take to politicise the idea that it's a good thing to be inclusive and welcoming is their choice and their choice alone, but does not change the fact that being a decent person is apolitical. Do not confuse that which is political with that which some may choose to politicise.
One question I have that nobody has (unless I missed it) addressed is ageism.
What are the age ranges you have in your groups?
I know now that I am approaching middle age I have gotten some dirty looks from some when I interact with kids or young adults. Luckily enough DnD for me doesn't seem to have the same issues and I have played with teens and people 50+ with no issues...but have you all faced any issues with age in gaming?
Well I'm in my upper thirties and the people in my group are all about the same age or maybe five ish years younger? So all mid to upper thirties. This is mostly because it's built around my group of friends from high school.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Section 2e of the forum guidelines explains that religious or political topics are not to be discussed hence me being disheartened that even moderators are engaging in this sort of topic.
Promoting the idea that D&D should be welcoming, safe, and inclusive for all people, and that diversity is something that benefits the game, is not a political ideology, it is a principle of compassion and decency, one that D&D Beyond and Fandom take very seriously. As such, it does not violate site rules.
The decision that some may take to politicise the idea that it's a good thing to be inclusive and welcoming is their choice and their choice alone, but does not change the fact that being a decent person is apolitical. Do not confuse that which is political with that which some may choose to politicise.
I'm not going to waste mine or anyone else's time trying to argue with a moderator on what your rules mean, the rules are what you say they are.
Look at it this way; you have two groups, one of which has been disenfranchised from the hobby due to unequal treatment. If you pivot to treating them equally, you're not actually going to undo the imbalance caused by the unequal treatment and disenfranchisement, you're going to actually preserve it. Only by acknowledging the differences in experience and treating those of each groups as individuals including their own individual experiences with being disenfranchised or not can you work to undo past damage.
Treating people equally does not mean treating people identicitically. Doing so doesn't result in equality and equity, it just preserves any imbalance that already exists.
Perfect example of 'sit white people at the back of the bus' mentality. Basically saying, don't treat black people the same as white people, treat them differently so we can address some imbalance. Fighting racism with more racism :(
As a final thought on the topic, I would urge people to think twice about judging and treating people differently because of something they cannot control. You may feel compassionate and all cozy inside that you chose a black guy for your game over a white guy, but in reality you've just been textbook racist to the white guy and tokenised the black guy, which is even worse if the other players know that's what you did, as they now look at him as the diversity quota fill and not a equal member of the group, perhaps even undeserving.
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Here, take a pair of these frog's lips. I hear they are a delicacy around these parts.
My group is usually just me ( A straight Christian dude. ), and two other guys ( Also white. ), once in a while a mixed friend will join, and race/gender/sexual orientation has never once come up once, on the subject of diversity I was acquainted with a black guy in my youth group who had also played a good bit of D&D ( Although he was mostly a MTG guy. ), outside of personal interactions with people, probably the only group I ever saw playing was at my FLGS had 2 white players, a black player, and a black DM ( All dudes. ).
I personally don’t think race/gender/etc. should be a huge thing, a person’s color, gender, religion, or sexuality really shouldn’t be the first thing you think about when you see them, but that’s just my opinion.
As a final thought on the topic, I would urge people to think twice about judging and treating people differently because of something they cannot control. You may feel compassionate and all cozy inside that you chose a black guy for your game over a white guy, but in reality you've just been textbook racist to the white guy and tokenised the black guy, which is even worse if the other players know that's what you did, as they now look at him as the diversity quota fill and not a equal member of the group, perhaps even undeserving.
I see your point, and as someone who has been the token minority myself I know how uncomfortable that can be, but if you'll look at the diversity initiatives that have been happening from Wizards and from Beyond, they have all been about removing pain points and barriers to entry, not about specifically shoehorning in token minorities. So none of this quota stuff is actually what's happening.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I tend to think of it as these things being "political" only if and when someone makes them political, Bufu. My attitude towards diversity has nothing to do with my political leanings or affiliations, and the fact that certain political groups like to try and appropriate those ideals to collect some extra votes has nothing to do with me or my discussion of those ideals.
Diversity is not a left issue or a right issue. It's a whole-society issue that affects every last person in this country. It affects us all in different ways depending on the lives we lead, and the impact it leaves on every single person is going to be a little different. You prefer to be treated as being no different at all than anybody else, and were you at my table I'd accommodate your wishes.
Another of my friends, however, is upset by that idea, sees it as 'whitewashing' and hates the notion of "solving" racism in this country by burying race and just treating everybody as being white despite their actual level of whiteness. He runs a lot of games using other rules systems, exploring the cultures, mythology, and history of both African and Chinese societies. I've played a nomadic tribal huntress tasked with guiding her city-bred clodfoot companions through a new, undiscovered wilderness, and I've played (briefly) a qi-empowered police official with dragon's blood chasing organized crime through the streets of a not-Chinese port town. Both of which, by the way, were quite cool games I'm a little sad died off, those were fun ways to explore a new worldview.
He does not want people to ignore or forget the fact that he's black, he wants being black to be just as cool and valid as being white. He wants to be able to celebrate his history and culture as much as the rest of us celebrate ours. I learned quite a bit from him, lessons I try to pass on to others when I can. Regardless of the blue/redness of their ballots, which is none of my business anyways.
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You're arguing a technicality that distracts from the point of the thread. Common courtesy is the obvious starting point, yes. Davyd, Ophidimancer, myself, and others are arguing that awareness is critical and true equality begins with acknowledging and celebrating - or at least not denigrating - differences.
I'm going to quote something Davyd said, because it strikes to the heart of this.
Inclusivity is not "I'm going to treat everyone the same way, as if they're the same person, because that's equal." It is not adhering to the idea of ignoring or not caring about differences, nor is "I treat everyone with the same basic courtesy until they give me reason otherwise" any sort of real argument.
Inclusivity is "I'm going to treat whoever I interact with like they're a different person than I am, with a different experience of life - and that's awesome." It's the understanding that a black lesbian trans woman practitioner of vodoun from Guatemala is not only an entirely different person than Mr. Brohampton the South Virginian Protestant, but that neither of those two people, neither of those two sets of experiences, are intrinsically more or less valuable than the other.
Please do not contact or message me.
I think my engagement here derails the thread too much. I get carried away with discussions such as this as.
Altrazin Aghanes - Wizard/Fighter
Varpulis Windhowl - Fighter
Skolson Demjon - Cleric/Fighter
You're fine. I got firm in my previous post mostly because this board has an unfortunate tendency to allow threads to get bogged down in irrelevant technicality side tangents, and myself and several other posters have decided to start being stricter about spotting common derailing trends and calling them out. If the other person corrects? No issue.
It is a constant - and I do mean a constant - with discussions of this sort that people feel a need to defend themselves or prove their decency and open-mindedness. These threads, by their fundamental nature, emphasize the life experiences of nontypical folk, which can leave normal, ordinary white cishet folks feeling pushed out of the picture. As if their own experience is being denigrated in turn simply because there's nothing 'extra' about them.
There's nothing necessarily wrong with simply treating everyone the same, without regard for race, gender, sexuality, status, or the like. It's better than many alternatives. I've had to explain to so, sooo many people that no - they're not Terrible Horrible People for not being aware of these sorts of things. It was simply outside their life experience until someone else opted to expand their awareness.
One easy examply - I was not aware of the term 'enby' until Ophidimancer used it in this thread. I had to go look it up and figure out what it meant, because that term was outside my experience. The English language is not well equipped to talk about issues of gender, so the LGBT+ community is inventing new language every day to help patch that. Learning those terms helps me better communicate with people and avoid stepping on buttons, so I like finding them when I do. Doesn't mean I was actively trying to Do Bad By People by not knowing or using those terms, it simply meant I hadn't experienced them yet.
For those who were also unaware of the term but did not immediately go Google it, beeteedubs: "Enby" is the phonetic pronunciation of the abbreviation N.B., for 'non-binary'. It's often considered a useful neutral term to substitute for 'man' or 'woman' that conveys information more effectively than 'person', as it indicates gender identity the same way 'man' or 'woman' can/does. It's a neat term, one I'm glad to add to my lexicon, and a great example of the evolving language growing up around the LGBT+ space.
Please do not contact or message me.
I’ve been DMing for about three years now, and my tables have been diverse in regards to people I’ve played with. White, Black - Gay, straight - Christian, Muslim, Atheist -, etc. The way I see it, all are welcome at my table regardless of lifestyle or belief or what ever else as long as they’re respectful and kind to others. Myself being a straight Christian, and a lot of my friends not sharing those aspects, I’m perfectly fine with anyone being at my games and enjoying our shared hobby.
I didn't mention sexual orientation in my earlier post, simply because it often doesn't come up - especially in this online era, though obviously that applies to ethnicity as well. A not insignificant chunk of my D&D experience has been through PbP as well, the last couple of years of 3rd edition and the first of 4th (still playing 3.5 in that campaign). Most of the people I played in person with for long enough I have at least an idea of their orientation, but even with those not all of them. The online folks, the ones I played only one short campaign with and didn't see anymore after, and in some cases the ones that hadn't figured it all out yet - I often don't know. It's not typically something that comes up early on unless you meet the partner(s) as well, and it's certainly not something I'm going to be asking about unless there are some very unusual circumstances. I've had one player tell me he was gay when I invited him to join my group because he thought I should know beforehand, but that was back in the '90s and that felt odd even back then - though on an intellectual level I could certainly understand the reasons he may have had.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I've played at tables of different composition. My current home game is pretty homogenous (3 white cis-dudes and my white cis-daughter). But I've played at diverse tables. I really don't think it matters how diverse or homogenous an individual table is - tables come together for all manner of reasons.
That's why I said "building up a group" and not "starting" one.
Obviously, the first step would be to eliminate any applicants with whom I don't want to play with, for any range of serious (e.g. someone is clearly problematic from the get-go) or functional (e.g. time zone issues) or silly reasons (they want to play a homebrew class I think is ridiculous) before we even have a session zero, that's what happens when you have a choice and when you owe nothing/have no shared history with the people you're playing with and I don't think anyone would begrudge a DM that.
I wouldn't hand out a survey asking people what various groups they identify with, that would be the box-ticking I said I'd want to avoid. I would, however, ask them how they feel about playing with members of groups they don't belong to, make it clear that my game not only welcomes but actively hopes to have people from all walks of life (and I find that merely stating something like that tends to be enough to drive away from the kind of people I'm hoping to avoid from the getgo).
And frankly, I see no problem with having six applicants for four spots who all clear the minimum requirements and not going with the top four in order to have a more inclusive group, If person X is a better roleplayer and has a better knowledge of the rules than person Y but they both are good people and picking person Y would yield a more diverse group, I frankly have zero qualms over excluding person X. They're only missing out on a game, not a job.
This is why I have to say the college admission metaphor doesn't travel well for me, because the consequences of not getting into a D&D game you wanted to are negligible.
It would be incredibly naive of me to assume that's enough, however. That would just be a starting point. Over time, as people come and go, and as I get to know them better, is when actualizing a diverse group would properly take shape.
Playing online is simply the only way I'd play with strangers, and even then I might be aprehensive. I've never been to a convention, played at a store or community center, and I don't see myself ever doing so given my social anxiety and issues talking to people generally.
I don't see the conflict between wanting a diverse set of players and having an escapist game. Personally, I like both approaches. I've run a campaign set in a homebrew world where racism (both the fantastical variety and between humans) was no longer an issue and others where several of the real world's real social ills were front and center through thinly veiled metaphors.
You're right about the DM allowing it to happen. Not because I condone it, but because I am admittedly not assertive enough to address it effectively. I recognize that this makes me complicit; I am essentially letting something I believe is wrong go on because it is uncomfortable to enter into a confrontation especially when there's no easy out of "your actions are offending your fellow players" when the entire group is on the same page and the DM gets branded a PC buzzkill. So I do my pathetic "guys that's not cool" protestation and we move on. I'm not proud of it but it's what happens. I firmly believe having a diverse group is one where such a situation doesn't occur.
I have no interest in educating people about good gender politics through D&D. Whether a player's instinct is to be disrespectful but they end up self-censoring due to the group's diversity or whether they are genuinely a kind, respectful, and empathetic person is not my concern. This is doubly true if they're a stranger. I care about consequences not intentions and have no delusions about how much positive change my actions can actually bring about (very little). I care about doing my best as a matter of principle, but I also think the worst in humanity tends to win; I merely wish to escape that fact when I am engaging in my hobby about dragons and wizards. Yes, I am creating a bubble and no I don't see a problem with it.
Finally, I never intended for my throwaway anecdotal evidence to come off as a universal assertion. Maybe there are heterogeneous groups where everything is great and diverse ones that are total disasters; there probably are. My guess is that more often than not it's the other way around but I've not studied the matter, I'm simply going by what I've personally experienced both in D&D and life generally.
Our table has a female (my daughter) and a black guy (well, half, I guess since his mom is white) myself, my son and my daughter's boyfriend, who are all the typical pasty white dudes. We all get along as well as ANY other group possibly could and the only ethnic stuff that ever comes out is Ty (daughter's friend) who constantly runs the line "It's because I'm black, isn't it?" when anything happens to him. We all laugh a lot, as everyone knows it's his ting, his gag and he only does it with those he trusts, which to ME, is awesome, to BE one of the people he trusts.
I know so far as how we treat people (my family) we get a lot of results showing we must be doing things ok. We as a family, have a number of sexual orientations, ethnicity and such, that we count as friends. Every person we meet is gauged on how they are, not WHO they identify as. None of us care what a person's sexual orientation is, what gender they identify as (we previously thought the 2 to be one, but have been properly informed) We are all interested in someone's background if from another country or region, as we adore hearing and learning new ways and customs and so forth.
I feel proud as a parent, to see my kids treat everyone the way THEY would like to be treated. We are open and welcoming to all and we happily join in when these folks start with the silliness of "racist" remarks about themselves, as we appreciate and understand just how inane most of it is. Again, our mantra is to treat others as you wish to be treated. makes life pretty simple, we feel.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
I started playing with friends who were: white/mixed (myself), lily white (dork), Black, Japanese-American, and mixed (Black dad, white mom). As we got older, my Black friends got a lot more grief for being DnD dorks than the rest of us, mainly from other Black guys, so stopped playing earlier. By high school, playing DnD table top was pure dork land, and certain to be mocked, so we gravitated to computer/net versions.
When I got back into playing later, I did so with friends who were girls. They were more into the role-playing/improv acting aspect (one was kind of an early cosplayer I guess). Women/female players weren't very common... I wouldn't say the regular players were diverse, but more diverse than previously. It wasn't really considered polite to pry about other players personal lives (the IRL rule), so I couldn't say who was gay or straight or in the closet or out.
Don't you think all video games have a target demographic and market? (And most have a heavy regional bias, independent of gender & race). I mean how many hard-bitten noir games have most of the characters speaking with LA accents? (Kind of hard to take the Valley Guy voice over actor seriously as a Demon Lord, right?)
“Desitutus ventis, remos adhibe”
When the Winds fail you, row.
What is this thread.. :(
Quite disheartening to see even moderators pushing a left wing political agenda of "Diversity and Inclusivity" within these forums.
Stop judging people based on immutable characteristics like race, gender, sexual orientation etc.
None of those things have any bearing on D&D what so ever, and if you think they do then you are the person with a problem.
It goes without saying that every single person here would be against anyone being excluded from a game or treated differently based on something they can't control, if the thread was meant to be just that then I agree with it.
I'm black and I would be horrified turning up at a table run by some people in this thread as they proceeded to try to correct some sort of perceived imbalance that they have decided exists against me, by treating me differently.
I get that its coming from a good place and they are good people trying to do something they think is good, but in practice it is the opposite of inclusive.
These types of people would have made white people sit at the back of the bus for a while to try to balance things out instead of just removing race from seating rules on buses.
Here, take a pair of these frog's lips. I hear they are a delicacy around these parts.
I don't think it's a political or left wing agenda. It's a compassionate one, it's an open minded one, and yes it's probably somewhat of a PR minded one as well, but what isn't these days?
While I have seen some things along those lines in this thread, I don't think it's been the majority, nor has it been any of the moderators and definitely not the official voice of the staff as seen in the Beyond article about inclusion. I'll quote Davyd here in what I think is the relevant attitude:
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Appreciate you taking the time to respond to my rant :), I perhaps feel a bit too strongly about this to be able to constructively contribute in the way I would like.
I have no doubt at all that people making these arguments would agree with you that they are just being compassionate, it doesn't stop it from also being political.
Diversity and Inclusivity come from the exact same mind set of things like quotas, affirmative action, equal representation.
I obviously disagree with all of those things as I see them as 'sitting white people at the back of the bus' type solutions, but that is not the point.
This ideology makes up what has recently been termed 'woke culture' and is certainly a political agenda being pushed by some on the left.
The point is that we all come to this game we love to escape and not have to deal with things like real world politics.
Section 2e of the forum guidelines explains that religious or political topics are not to be discussed hence me being disheartened that even moderators are engaging in this sort of topic.
Here, take a pair of these frog's lips. I hear they are a delicacy around these parts.
Promoting the idea that D&D should be welcoming, safe, and inclusive for all people, and that diversity is something that benefits the game, is not a political ideology, it is a principle of compassion and decency, one that D&D Beyond and Fandom take very seriously. As such, it does not violate site rules.
The decision that some may take to politicise the idea that it's a good thing to be inclusive and welcoming is their choice and their choice alone, but does not change the fact that being a decent person is apolitical. Do not confuse that which is political with that which some may choose to politicise.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
All white dudes, myself included.
One question I have that nobody has (unless I missed it) addressed is ageism.
What are the age ranges you have in your groups?
I know now that I am approaching middle age I have gotten some dirty looks from some when I interact with kids or young adults. Luckily enough DnD for me doesn't seem to have the same issues and I have played with teens and people 50+ with no issues...but have you all faced any issues with age in gaming?
Well I'm in my upper thirties and the people in my group are all about the same age or maybe five ish years younger? So all mid to upper thirties. This is mostly because it's built around my group of friends from high school.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I'm not going to waste mine or anyone else's time trying to argue with a moderator on what your rules mean, the rules are what you say they are.
Perfect example of 'sit white people at the back of the bus' mentality.
Basically saying, don't treat black people the same as white people, treat them differently so we can address some imbalance.
Fighting racism with more racism :(
As a final thought on the topic, I would urge people to think twice about judging and treating people differently because of something they cannot control.
You may feel compassionate and all cozy inside that you chose a black guy for your game over a white guy, but in reality you've just been textbook racist to the white guy and tokenised the black guy, which is even worse if the other players know that's what you did, as they now look at him as the diversity quota fill and not a equal member of the group, perhaps even undeserving.
Here, take a pair of these frog's lips. I hear they are a delicacy around these parts.
My group is usually just me ( A straight Christian dude. ), and two other guys ( Also white. ), once in a while a mixed friend will join, and race/gender/sexual orientation has never once come up once, on the subject of diversity I was acquainted with a black guy in my youth group who had also played a good bit of D&D ( Although he was mostly a MTG guy. ), outside of personal interactions with people, probably the only group I ever saw playing was at my FLGS had 2 white players, a black player, and a black DM ( All dudes. ).
I personally don’t think race/gender/etc. should be a huge thing, a person’s color, gender, religion, or sexuality really shouldn’t be the first thing you think about when you see them, but that’s just my opinion.
Mystic v3 should be official, nuff said.
I see your point, and as someone who has been the token minority myself I know how uncomfortable that can be, but if you'll look at the diversity initiatives that have been happening from Wizards and from Beyond, they have all been about removing pain points and barriers to entry, not about specifically shoehorning in token minorities. So none of this quota stuff is actually what's happening.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I tend to think of it as these things being "political" only if and when someone makes them political, Bufu. My attitude towards diversity has nothing to do with my political leanings or affiliations, and the fact that certain political groups like to try and appropriate those ideals to collect some extra votes has nothing to do with me or my discussion of those ideals.
Diversity is not a left issue or a right issue. It's a whole-society issue that affects every last person in this country. It affects us all in different ways depending on the lives we lead, and the impact it leaves on every single person is going to be a little different. You prefer to be treated as being no different at all than anybody else, and were you at my table I'd accommodate your wishes.
Another of my friends, however, is upset by that idea, sees it as 'whitewashing' and hates the notion of "solving" racism in this country by burying race and just treating everybody as being white despite their actual level of whiteness. He runs a lot of games using other rules systems, exploring the cultures, mythology, and history of both African and Chinese societies. I've played a nomadic tribal huntress tasked with guiding her city-bred clodfoot companions through a new, undiscovered wilderness, and I've played (briefly) a qi-empowered police official with dragon's blood chasing organized crime through the streets of a not-Chinese port town. Both of which, by the way, were quite cool games I'm a little sad died off, those were fun ways to explore a new worldview.
He does not want people to ignore or forget the fact that he's black, he wants being black to be just as cool and valid as being white. He wants to be able to celebrate his history and culture as much as the rest of us celebrate ours. I learned quite a bit from him, lessons I try to pass on to others when I can. Regardless of the blue/redness of their ballots, which is none of my business anyways.
Please do not contact or message me.