This conversation reminds me of the scene in Superman II, after General Zod, Ursa, and Non have conquered the world, and Zod is sitting in the wreckage of the Oval Office (after they broke in and took over). Zod is sitting at the desk spinning some object around and around, looking bored as can be. Ursa says to him, "You are the ruler of all you survey." And Zod sighs and says, "And so I was yesterday, and the day before that, and the day before that."
Winning all the time is boring... You conquer the world and then what? BORED.
It's not necessarily a good thing to be able to win at everything you do all the time without any chance of defeat. It sucked the will out of even a megalomaniac like Zod.
When Lex Luthor showed up and told them where they could find Superman, the only person on earth who could even challenge him, Zod jumped at the chance. Because he was BORED.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
The character and his gear become incorporeal and under the permanent effect of the sanctuary spell with a DC 1,000. So no one will attack them (sanctuary) and he cannot attack as his weapons glide harmlessly through all objects
Make them the next big bad evil guy, set your next campaign a few years later and there is a being who has forged an empire having never been defeated. The power has corrupted him driving him to seek more and more.
So then the players, including the same player if they are part of the next campaign, are destined to fail?
No the trick here is to then find the way to trick him to fail, there are story ways of dealing with this, find a wish, or a god that can undo the wish. Have the players trick the bbeg into having to succeed at a thing that ultimately results in loss of power, roleplay out brining the character back to the light side allowing him to see the error in what he has done.
It's at the end of the campaign. Why not just grant the wish?
One person being undefeatable in combat won't solve every problem in the universe, even if that person wants to do so. Still, it's a very cool thing to have, and it's also not a wish that Literally Everyone would pick first, so... Yeah, what's the problem?
I mean honestly even if you were going to continue playing, you could run at least a handful of sessions with this wish being active, without it being totally devoid of tension. But you're not, so you don't even have to put in the effort.
I think I'd just grant them immortality, without the negative consequences. It's the end of the game, no need to screw them. If you're one of those DMs that likes to use things from prior games as something in future games, there can be tales of an immortal fighter, who while he may lose the fight, NEVER loses the war or a Wizard that is CONSTANTLY searching for new magics. Whatever the case is.
My instant reaction with Wish isn't to screw the person over. If I gave them a wish, as a DM, I knew there were consequences to MY action, why am I going to just retreat from that? I might make it interesting, but this is a self imposed problem and because of that, it's best to err on the side of the player and just roll with the punches.
A draw is technically not a defeat. Have it such that if he is every slain, the attacker also dies. As they die, they see the opponent also keel over, and a disembodied voice says "Okay, we'll call it a draw!"
To that aspect, give them the Black Knight powers. They don't die if they hit 0hp, they instead lose a limb. Each subsequent hit removes another limb until they have none left. They can't be defeated, but can be rendered a non-threat.
A draw is technically not a defeat. Have it such that if he is every slain, the attacker also dies. As they die, they see the opponent also keel over, and a disembodied voice says "Okay, we'll call it a draw!"
To that aspect, give them the Black Knight powers. They don't die if they hit 0hp, they instead lose a limb. Each subsequent hit removes another limb until they have none left. They can't be defeated, but can be rendered a non-threat.
Or turn them into my fav 40k chaos character, if they get killed they posses the body of the thing that killed them slowly turning them into him.
Every time he tries to fight someone, they die in a freak accident. He is worried that he will never get to valhalla, as he has to die in battle to get there.
Make them the next big bad evil guy, set your next campaign a few years later and there is a being who has forged an empire having never been defeated. The power has corrupted him driving him to seek more and more.
So then the players, including the same player if they are part of the next campaign, are destined to fail?
Maybe not destined to fail, just not destined to *defeat* the BBEG. Maybe, because this BBEG used to be a hero, in the right circumstances they will listen to reason and be convinced to turn back to the side of good and stop their evil scheme. They wouldn't have been defeated, per se, because they're still on the winning side, it's just not the side they started with.
I think of Dr. Doom at the end of Secret Wars, when he gives up his godlike power when he becomes convinced that his efforts to preserve the multiverse are in fact damaging it further due to his vanity, and he realizes that Reed Richards is the one who can truly re-make the world because he is the better man. Doom doesn't "lose" for the story to resolve.
Everyone here wants instant death and other such horrible punishments. You should making them casting wish worthwhile, not something they'd regret.
How about you just simply say no? Just tell them that that wish is too game-breaking, and tell them to wish for something else.
I rather like the suggestion from OptimusGrimus - Make them some form of Undead. I am slightly fond of my own suggestion, the Wish changes their name, so they can go right on playing and their original identity will never be defeated. Either one would work, and I'm sure there are others. True, having the mightiest spell in the game simply fail is fine, but I think it lacks drama a bit, and where is the fun in that?
While the wish could be granted straight up I don't know if I'd be able to resist putting a twist on a wish made for arrogance and pride on that scale.
I could also see whatever cosmic magical force is reshaping reality to grant that wish going for the easiest option. Rather than having to bend reality every time he gets into a fight, he dies or something like that to never suffer 'defeat' in a once and done deal.
I wouldn't consider dying to be 'defeated by death' unless the embodiment of Death, if there is one in that setting, has to like, personally contend with everyone that dies or something which just feels weird and convoluted to me.
If the DM wants a kinder ending I'd go for something raising him up to a higher plane of existence or something. But it's ultimately up to however the DM wants to interpret that wish.
Everyone here wants instant death and other such horrible punishments. You should making them casting wish worthwhile, not something they'd regret.
How about you just simply say no? Just tell them that that wish is too game-breaking, and tell them to wish for something else.
I rather like the suggestion from OptimusGrimus - Make them some form of Undead. I am slightly fond of my own suggestion, the Wish changes their name, so they can go right on playing and their original identity will never be defeated. Either one would work, and I'm sure there are others. True, having the mightiest spell in the game simply fail is fine, but I think it lacks drama a bit, and where is the fun in that?
I agree that for certain things, some twisting is good (your undead example for instance). However, in this case, if you have these twists it will either make the wish totally not worth it (instant death for example) or still be op even with the twist (turning into an undead for example).
And I didn't mean the spell failing. I meant just saying no and letting them wish for something else. Just like if a player asked to make a called shot for the eye, you'd probably say not, but not say their action is wasted.
The Wish spell cannot be cast before level 17 by a player character. I rather assumed that what we were talking about was the player having their character cast a Wish and say "I wish I to never be defeated", and what the DM would do to grant that Wish. I also assumed that the player wanted their character to keep being played past level 17, to be effectively invincible and able to overcome all obstacles if they chose to try. If I granted such a Wish, I know that I'd be bored, the other players would be likely to be bored, and the only one having any fun would be that player, and possibly not even them. Who has fun if they can't be challenged?
It wasn't me that suggested undeath, that was OptimusGrimus in post #7, and I think the credit should be given to them. I think it works as well as any other suggestion.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
<Insert clever signature here>
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I was considering something more like the character becomes a complete coward. By avoiding any sort of conflict, they never get defeated.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Make them so risk-averse that they avoid even indirect conflict.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
This conversation reminds me of the scene in Superman II, after General Zod, Ursa, and Non have conquered the world, and Zod is sitting in the wreckage of the Oval Office (after they broke in and took over). Zod is sitting at the desk spinning some object around and around, looking bored as can be. Ursa says to him, "You are the ruler of all you survey." And Zod sighs and says, "And so I was yesterday, and the day before that, and the day before that."
Winning all the time is boring... You conquer the world and then what? BORED.
It's not necessarily a good thing to be able to win at everything you do all the time without any chance of defeat. It sucked the will out of even a megalomaniac like Zod.
When Lex Luthor showed up and told them where they could find Superman, the only person on earth who could even challenge him, Zod jumped at the chance. Because he was BORED.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
The character and his gear become incorporeal and under the permanent effect of the sanctuary spell with a DC 1,000. So no one will attack them (sanctuary) and he cannot attack as his weapons glide harmlessly through all objects
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
No the trick here is to then find the way to trick him to fail, there are story ways of dealing with this, find a wish, or a god that can undo the wish. Have the players trick the bbeg into having to succeed at a thing that ultimately results in loss of power, roleplay out brining the character back to the light side allowing him to see the error in what he has done.
So much storytelling potential here
It's at the end of the campaign. Why not just grant the wish?
One person being undefeatable in combat won't solve every problem in the universe, even if that person wants to do so. Still, it's a very cool thing to have, and it's also not a wish that Literally Everyone would pick first, so... Yeah, what's the problem?
I mean honestly even if you were going to continue playing, you could run at least a handful of sessions with this wish being active, without it being totally devoid of tension. But you're not, so you don't even have to put in the effort.
I didn't say to make them the big bad. That was an entirely different post that I never replied to or quoted.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I think I'd just grant them immortality, without the negative consequences. It's the end of the game, no need to screw them. If you're one of those DMs that likes to use things from prior games as something in future games, there can be tales of an immortal fighter, who while he may lose the fight, NEVER loses the war or a Wizard that is CONSTANTLY searching for new magics. Whatever the case is.
My instant reaction with Wish isn't to screw the person over. If I gave them a wish, as a DM, I knew there were consequences to MY action, why am I going to just retreat from that? I might make it interesting, but this is a self imposed problem and because of that, it's best to err on the side of the player and just roll with the punches.
dad joke, you can not legally change your name to defeated
or just at all, your feat can also not be phisically, or magically removed
Everyone here wants instant death and other such horrible punishments. You should making them casting wish worthwhile, not something they'd regret.
How about you just simply say no? Just tell them that that wish is too game-breaking, and tell them to wish for something else.
I am an average mathematics enjoyer.
>Extended Signature<
A draw is technically not a defeat. Have it such that if he is every slain, the attacker also dies. As they die, they see the opponent also keel over, and a disembodied voice says "Okay, we'll call it a draw!"
To that aspect, give them the Black Knight powers. They don't die if they hit 0hp, they instead lose a limb. Each subsequent hit removes another limb until they have none left. They can't be defeated, but can be rendered a non-threat.
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
That’s a good one…or otherwise change them to never be able to get in a fight in the first place. Like turned into a sentient rock.
Guide to the Five Factions (PWYW)
Deck of Decks
Or turn them into my fav 40k chaos character, if they get killed they posses the body of the thing that killed them slowly turning them into him.
https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Lucius_the_Eternal
Another alternative would be the "curse" of Beorn the Viking:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV5w262XvCU
Every time he tries to fight someone, they die in a freak accident. He is worried that he will never get to valhalla, as he has to die in battle to get there.
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
Maybe not destined to fail, just not destined to *defeat* the BBEG. Maybe, because this BBEG used to be a hero, in the right circumstances they will listen to reason and be convinced to turn back to the side of good and stop their evil scheme. They wouldn't have been defeated, per se, because they're still on the winning side, it's just not the side they started with.
I think of Dr. Doom at the end of Secret Wars, when he gives up his godlike power when he becomes convinced that his efforts to preserve the multiverse are in fact damaging it further due to his vanity, and he realizes that Reed Richards is the one who can truly re-make the world because he is the better man. Doom doesn't "lose" for the story to resolve.
I rather like the suggestion from OptimusGrimus - Make them some form of Undead. I am slightly fond of my own suggestion, the Wish changes their name, so they can go right on playing and their original identity will never be defeated. Either one would work, and I'm sure there are others. True, having the mightiest spell in the game simply fail is fine, but I think it lacks drama a bit, and where is the fun in that?
<Insert clever signature here>
While the wish could be granted straight up I don't know if I'd be able to resist putting a twist on a wish made for arrogance and pride on that scale.
I could also see whatever cosmic magical force is reshaping reality to grant that wish going for the easiest option. Rather than having to bend reality every time he gets into a fight, he dies or something like that to never suffer 'defeat' in a once and done deal.
I wouldn't consider dying to be 'defeated by death' unless the embodiment of Death, if there is one in that setting, has to like, personally contend with everyone that dies or something which just feels weird and convoluted to me.
If the DM wants a kinder ending I'd go for something raising him up to a higher plane of existence or something. But it's ultimately up to however the DM wants to interpret that wish.
I agree that for certain things, some twisting is good (your undead example for instance). However, in this case, if you have these twists it will either make the wish totally not worth it (instant death for example) or still be op even with the twist (turning into an undead for example).
And I didn't mean the spell failing. I meant just saying no and letting them wish for something else. Just like if a player asked to make a called shot for the eye, you'd probably say not, but not say their action is wasted.
I am an average mathematics enjoyer.
>Extended Signature<
The Wish spell cannot be cast before level 17 by a player character. I rather assumed that what we were talking about was the player having their character cast a Wish and say "I wish I to never be defeated", and what the DM would do to grant that Wish. I also assumed that the player wanted their character to keep being played past level 17, to be effectively invincible and able to overcome all obstacles if they chose to try. If I granted such a Wish, I know that I'd be bored, the other players would be likely to be bored, and the only one having any fun would be that player, and possibly not even them. Who has fun if they can't be challenged?
It wasn't me that suggested undeath, that was OptimusGrimus in post #7, and I think the credit should be given to them. I think it works as well as any other suggestion.
<Insert clever signature here>