And before yet more garbage about "psionics" being sci-fi magic gets thrown at me, note that I've been using the terms "psychic powers" and "psychic characters", not psionics.
That's a completely irrelevant distinction, as the terms are generally synonyms. Psychic powers are also sci-fi magic.
That's a completely irrelevant distinction, as the terms are generally synonyms. Psychic powers are also sci-fi magic.
Then I reject your assertion that it's "sci-fi magic". Psychic abilities are no more "sci-fi" than artificers are. Again - there's a large number of monsters in the game that have explicitly psychic abilities. Why are those perfectly fine and Fantasy Allowed, but PCs with psychic abilities are somehow far too Star Trek to allow? Ridiculous. If mind flayers are fine, then so are psychic PCs. And given the existence (and sheer magnitude) of Baldur's Gate 3? Clearly mind flayers are fine.
Then I reject your assertion that it's "sci-fi magic". Psychic abilities are no more "sci-fi" than artificers are. Again - there's a large number of monsters in the game that have explicitly psychic abilities. Why are those perfectly fine and Fantasy Allowed, but PCs with psychic abilities are somehow far too Star Trek to allow?
PCs with psychic abilities are not a problem. The problem is thinking that psychic abilities should have different mechanics than other spellcasting. The way you build a psion in 5e is to play an aberrant mind sorcerer (it literally says that in the subclass description; "An alien influence has wrapped its tendrils around your mind, giving you psionic power.").
That's a completely irrelevant distinction, as the terms are generally synonyms. Psychic powers are also sci-fi magic.
Then I reject your assertion that it's "sci-fi magic". Psychic abilities are no more "sci-fi" than artificers are. Again - there's a large number of monsters in the game that have explicitly psychic abilities. Why are those perfectly fine and Fantasy Allowed, but PCs with psychic abilities are somehow far too Star Trek to allow? Ridiculous. If mind flayers are fine, then so are psychic PCs. And given the existence (and sheer magnitude) of Baldur's Gate 3? Clearly mind flayers are fine.
Gee, if only they provided numerous spells, feats, and subclasses that facilitate this model. Oh, wait, they do. As has been previously said, the issue with psionic powers as a PC option is not that they should not exist, but when there's already a spell for pretty much every classic psychic power there's little reason to reinvent the wheel attempting to build an entire alternate system as opposed to simply utilizing what is already in place. In spite of your thoroughly specious assertion that an Aberrant Mind sorcerer must be a- what charming invective was it you came up with?- ah, yes "skuzzleech", the actual fact of the matter is that the subclass features themselves all thoroughly facilitate a psionic playstyle, and there Sorcerer spells that use psychic damage at cantrip, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 9th level in addition to pretty much all the mind control and telekinetic spells, so one is hardly "forced" to take other spells unless you are likewise seeking optimization, and true optimized spellcasting in D&D has always been extremely narrow so one cannot reasonably claim that psionics in particular are being discriminated against on that basis.
Most classes have a Psionic Subclass, or have a subclass that can be flavored Psionic.
Barbarian = Have a Player in my campaign right now who's Wild Magic Barbarian who treats their rage as a psychic manifestation of their lucid dreams. Honestly brilliant player roleplay.
Bard = any caster can be flavored psionic easy, College of Whispers make it even easier.
Cleric = one of the hardest caster classes to make psionic, but Order plays well with a psionic backstory.
Druid = Psionic Body horror, make a Changeling Druid, and you have the making of a sci-fi horror character.
Fighter = Has actual Psionic Subclass, and a few that work well with a psionic theme. Psi-Warrior taken directly from the Mystic and made into a more fitting subclass. But also Eldritch Knight and Echo Knight play into the theme well.
Monk = Every Monk subclass is a Psionic subclass, prove me wrong. The Ki mechanic is basically PSP.
Paladin = another hard sell, but since your oaths are basically your beliefs manifesting your power, an argument can be made for any subclass. And your charisma empowered casting is just your psionics.
Ranger = It would take some hard RP and Backstory, but it works essentially like Paladin you can argue any subclass for the most part could be psionic.
Rogue = Got one of the Mystic Subclasses, the Soul Knife. Besides the very clearly Psionic Subclass, any of the caster type Rogues could be flavored Psionic easily. After all how does an orphan from Waterdeep end up an Arcane Trickster or Phantom?
Sorcerer = Born with magic seems a lot like Psionics... but Aberrant Mind comes right from the Mystic.
Warlocks = Well this is a harder sell, but who knows maybe the entity you made the contract with is the psionic personality that shares your body. A fun way to make a system into a powerful character concept, Kalashtar would be the clever choice on this.
Wizard = Book learning spell caster... while one of the few Intelligent casters ( the Old Psionic Class used Int ) it's a hard sell. However you could RP an Enchanter or Transmutation Wizard as a Psion in disguise.
Normally I wouldn't mention this class, even though I love them, they usually don't need mentioning, and most people ignore them due to "Not fitting the aesthetic" of whatever dark age fantasy you have. I disagree, but well I'm just one.
Artificer = They have everything needed to be a psionic class, and because they were developed after Mystic was forgotten, I can't help but notice how much mystic is in them. They use Intelligence, they just know spells as they level, they can just make magic items, ... yeah totally a psionic class. I mean my favorite infusion is basically bullets made from air. Not a hard sell for a psionic character IMO.
(Edit: Note my Gnome Artificer Avatar, I played her in one of those Dark Ages fantasy settings, where the DM hated Elves and Dragons, My Gnome was amazing. Bhuem Ka Bhuem)
Semantics; plus I've seen some of the novels refer to psionics as just an alternate way of manipulating the Weave, so lorewise there's even indications it's just different techniques for the same basic function.
Every Psionic Ability from the AD&D Psionic Handbook, is a spell in 5th Edition. Psionics uses ones mind to manipulate the weave. So technically not Magic, but realistically it's just another way to do Magic. Only in 2nd Ed were psionics considered not magic for the purposes of gameplay, and that was because of the OP nature of the abilities and the fact a level 1 could use abilities that could kill a Tarrasque. With a 10% chance of killing the party instead.
Most classes have a Psionic Subclass, or have a subclass that can be flavored Psionic.
Paladin = another hard sell, but since your oaths are basically your beliefs manifesting your power, an argument can be made for any subclass. And your charisma empowered casting is just your psionics.
Most classes have a Psionic Subclass, or have a subclass that can be flavored Psionic.
Paladin = another hard sell, but since your oaths are basically your beliefs manifesting your power, an argument can be made for any subclass. And your charisma empowered casting is just your psionics.
Paladin = Jedi style force powers.
NGL, I was going to mention this, but I decided not to mention something so obvious. After all just pop over to SW5e and read the Jedi or Sith and you will quickly realize they are based on Paladins.
I have been playing D&D for 40 plus years. I played in AD&D groups that used Psionics. That trash ruined games then, and giving it to players now will do the same. The entire mechanics of these things make PC's incredibly OP. And as others have stated, many of the Psionic abilities in AD&D have been introduced as watered down spells. There is zero need to bring that nonsense back into the game.
I have been playing D&D for 40 plus years. I played in AD&D groups that used Psionics. That trash ruined games then, and giving it to players now will do the same. The entire mechanics of these things make PC's incredibly OP. And as others have stated, many of the Psionic abilities in AD&D have been introduced as watered down spells. There is zero need to bring that nonsense back into the game.
Just because the original AD&D psionic rules were crap in no way invalidates the concept. Can it be done badly? Sure. Must it? Of course not.
At its heart, any set of psionic rules is just another framework of special powers. D&D already has a bunch of those, though most aside from spell slots are used for only one class or subclass.
I have been playing D&D for 40 plus years. I played in AD&D groups that used Psionics. That trash ruined games then, and giving it to players now will do the same. The entire mechanics of these things make PC's incredibly OP. And as others have stated, many of the Psionic abilities in AD&D have been introduced as watered down spells. There is zero need to bring that nonsense back into the game.
Just because the original AD&D psionic rules were crap in no way invalidates the concept. Can it be done badly? Sure. Must it? Of course not.
At its heart, any set of psionic rules is just another framework of special powers. D&D already has a bunch of those, though most aside from spell slots are used for only one class or subclass.
Why must every PC be "special"? Why does every single one have to have super-duper mind powers, aka magical abilities? You want to play a PC that has special mind powers? Great. Play a Wizard, or Cleric. or any number of flavours of Warlock. Or better yet, play a Bard that rolls a 25 on Persuasion on a single roll and convinces the evil king to give up his kingdom and give it all away to the poor. Almost every class and subclass has magical features now. There is no need whatsoever to add more mind control.
I have been playing D&D for 40 plus years. I played in AD&D groups that used Psionics. That trash ruined games then, and giving it to players now will do the same. The entire mechanics of these things make PC's incredibly OP. And as others have stated, many of the Psionic abilities in AD&D have been introduced as watered down spells. There is zero need to bring that nonsense back into the game.
Just because the original AD&D psionic rules were crap in no way invalidates the concept. Can it be done badly? Sure. Must it? Of course not.
At its heart, any set of psionic rules is just another framework of special powers. D&D already has a bunch of those, though most aside from spell slots are used for only one class or subclass.
Well, if it is 'just a natural ability' that some people have, what differentiates that from sorcerers, who are similarly born into their power? And how is it even a class at all? Or even subclass? (The sorcerer concept itself has this problem too, mind.... if one is born with these powers, why does that limit potential to learn other things?)
I have been playing D&D for 40 plus years. I played in AD&D groups that used Psionics. That trash ruined games then, and giving it to players now will do the same. The entire mechanics of these things make PC's incredibly OP. And as others have stated, many of the Psionic abilities in AD&D have been introduced as watered down spells. There is zero need to bring that nonsense back into the game.
Just because the original AD&D psionic rules were crap in no way invalidates the concept. Can it be done badly? Sure. Must it? Of course not.
At its heart, any set of psionic rules is just another framework of special powers. D&D already has a bunch of those, though most aside from spell slots are used for only one class or subclass.
Well, if it is 'just a natural ability' that some people have, what differentiates that from sorcerers, who are similarly born into their power? And how is it even a class at all? Or even subclass? (The sorcerer concept itself has this problem too, mind.... if one is born with these powers, why does that limit potential to learn other things?)
The most obvious answer would be "you need significant training". Natural, mostly untrained, talent would be done with feats, which is used for giving characters just a little access to most of the other special power systems in the game. (Monks being the only exception I can think of.)
The difference from sorcerers is that sorcerers are tied into the existing spell list, and thus the spell slot system. And, of course, they suffer for it. But "how to differentiate the sorcerer from a warmed-over wizard" is a different topic.
I don't even think D&D needs psionics, and think these are some pretty weak objections.
The base sorcerer class framework is a terrible representation of someone born with magic in their blood and bone. Sorcerers don't really have any business being formal spellcasters unless they learned to channel their power that way, which mostly makes them bad wizards.
That said, the reason the sorcerer class exists - and the reason a psychic class should exist - is because being born with power doesn't mean you can use it meaningfully. My favorite example is the Wild Magic barbarian, who is (potentially) born with power exactly the same way the sorcerer is. But they didn't want to be a God Damned Nerd, so instead they lifted, hit the protein shakes, trained in the dojo, and devoted only as much time to their magic as was needed to figure out how to vent it in the general direction of the enemy before mauling them with an axe. This is a perfect example of someone born with a gift or talent they didn't really develop.
Psychic subs of other classes can fill similar roles,but there's no good option for someone that eishes for their character's psychic abilities to be their focus. And no, the goddamn Aberrant Mind is not and never will be a good answer. I don't want mucus and adventitious eyeballs on every psychic character in the game, thank you very none.
I have been playing D&D for 40 plus years. I played in AD&D groups that used Psionics. That trash ruined games then, and giving it to players now will do the same. The entire mechanics of these things make PC's incredibly OP. And as others have stated, many of the Psionic abilities in AD&D have been introduced as watered down spells. There is zero need to bring that nonsense back into the game.
Just because the original AD&D psionic rules were crap in no way invalidates the concept. Can it be done badly? Sure. Must it? Of course not.
At its heart, any set of psionic rules is just another framework of special powers. D&D already has a bunch of those, though most aside from spell slots are used for only one class or subclass.
Why must every PC be "special"? Why does every single one have to have super-duper mind powers, aka magical abilities? You want to play a PC that has special mind powers? Great. Play a Wizard, or Cleric. or any number of flavours of Warlock. Or better yet, play a Bard that rolls a 25 on Persuasion on a single roll and convinces the evil king to give up his kingdom and give it all away to the poor. Almost every class and subclass has magical features now. There is no need whatsoever to add more mind control.
Every PC must be special because they're a PC. Why must they have magic powers, or mastery of weapons, or whatever? Because we're not playing 5-point GURPS. Every single level 1 PC in every single version of D&D is already exceptional, with the potential to become vastly more so. Psionics are a not-uncommon trope in fantasy, particularly in the era that most influenced D&D, so some people want it available in the game. Cope.
Every PC must be special because they're a PC. Why must they have magic powers, or mastery of weapons, or whatever? Because we're not playing 5-point GURPS. Every single level 1 PC in every single version of D&D is already exceptional, with the potential to become vastly more so. Psionics are a not-uncommon trope in fantasy, particularly in the era that most influenced D&D, so some people want it available in the game. Cope.
The problem isn't that psionics aren't available in the game. The problem is that people don't like how it's implemented in the game. And, well, that's the reality of class-based RPGs: you almost always need to compromise your concept, often significantly, to get it to fit within the game.
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I can not see the gods allowing the minions to have a power they do not have.
That's worldbuilding, varies from game to game, and is not a matter for the rules.
(And why do you assume the gods don't have access to such powers, anyway?)
That's a completely irrelevant distinction, as the terms are generally synonyms. Psychic powers are also sci-fi magic.
Then I reject your assertion that it's "sci-fi magic". Psychic abilities are no more "sci-fi" than artificers are. Again - there's a large number of monsters in the game that have explicitly psychic abilities. Why are those perfectly fine and Fantasy Allowed, but PCs with psychic abilities are somehow far too Star Trek to allow? Ridiculous. If mind flayers are fine, then so are psychic PCs. And given the existence (and sheer magnitude) of Baldur's Gate 3? Clearly mind flayers are fine.
Please do not contact or message me.
PCs with psychic abilities are not a problem. The problem is thinking that psychic abilities should have different mechanics than other spellcasting. The way you build a psion in 5e is to play an aberrant mind sorcerer (it literally says that in the subclass description; "An alien influence has wrapped its tendrils around your mind, giving you psionic power.").
Gee, if only they provided numerous spells, feats, and subclasses that facilitate this model. Oh, wait, they do. As has been previously said, the issue with psionic powers as a PC option is not that they should not exist, but when there's already a spell for pretty much every classic psychic power there's little reason to reinvent the wheel attempting to build an entire alternate system as opposed to simply utilizing what is already in place. In spite of your thoroughly specious assertion that an Aberrant Mind sorcerer must be a- what charming invective was it you came up with?- ah, yes "skuzzleech", the actual fact of the matter is that the subclass features themselves all thoroughly facilitate a psionic playstyle, and there Sorcerer spells that use psychic damage at cantrip, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 9th level in addition to pretty much all the mind control and telekinetic spells, so one is hardly "forced" to take other spells unless you are likewise seeking optimization, and true optimized spellcasting in D&D has always been extremely narrow so one cannot reasonably claim that psionics in particular are being discriminated against on that basis.
Most classes have a Psionic Subclass, or have a subclass that can be flavored Psionic.
Barbarian = Have a Player in my campaign right now who's Wild Magic Barbarian who treats their rage as a psychic manifestation of their lucid dreams. Honestly brilliant player roleplay.
Bard = any caster can be flavored psionic easy, College of Whispers make it even easier.
Cleric = one of the hardest caster classes to make psionic, but Order plays well with a psionic backstory.
Druid = Psionic Body horror, make a Changeling Druid, and you have the making of a sci-fi horror character.
Fighter = Has actual Psionic Subclass, and a few that work well with a psionic theme. Psi-Warrior taken directly from the Mystic and made into a more fitting subclass. But also Eldritch Knight and Echo Knight play into the theme well.
Monk = Every Monk subclass is a Psionic subclass, prove me wrong. The Ki mechanic is basically PSP.
Paladin = another hard sell, but since your oaths are basically your beliefs manifesting your power, an argument can be made for any subclass. And your charisma empowered casting is just your psionics.
Ranger = It would take some hard RP and Backstory, but it works essentially like Paladin you can argue any subclass for the most part could be psionic.
Rogue = Got one of the Mystic Subclasses, the Soul Knife. Besides the very clearly Psionic Subclass, any of the caster type Rogues could be flavored Psionic easily. After all how does an orphan from Waterdeep end up an Arcane Trickster or Phantom?
Sorcerer = Born with magic seems a lot like Psionics... but Aberrant Mind comes right from the Mystic.
Warlocks = Well this is a harder sell, but who knows maybe the entity you made the contract with is the psionic personality that shares your body. A fun way to make a system into a powerful character concept, Kalashtar would be the clever choice on this.
Wizard = Book learning spell caster... while one of the few Intelligent casters ( the Old Psionic Class used Int ) it's a hard sell. However you could RP an Enchanter or Transmutation Wizard as a Psion in disguise.
Normally I wouldn't mention this class, even though I love them, they usually don't need mentioning, and most people ignore them due to "Not fitting the aesthetic" of whatever dark age fantasy you have. I disagree, but well I'm just one.
Artificer = They have everything needed to be a psionic class, and because they were developed after Mystic was forgotten, I can't help but notice how much mystic is in them. They use Intelligence, they just know spells as they level, they can just make magic items, ... yeah totally a psionic class. I mean my favorite infusion is basically bullets made from air. Not a hard sell for a psionic character IMO.
(Edit: Note my Gnome Artificer Avatar, I played her in one of those Dark Ages fantasy settings, where the DM hated Elves and Dragons, My Gnome was amazing. Bhuem Ka Bhuem)
But its not magic!!!!!!!!!!!
Semantics; plus I've seen some of the novels refer to psionics as just an alternate way of manipulating the Weave, so lorewise there's even indications it's just different techniques for the same basic function.
Every Psionic Ability from the AD&D Psionic Handbook, is a spell in 5th Edition. Psionics uses ones mind to manipulate the weave. So technically not Magic, but realistically it's just another way to do Magic. Only in 2nd Ed were psionics considered not magic for the purposes of gameplay, and that was because of the OP nature of the abilities and the fact a level 1 could use abilities that could kill a Tarrasque. With a 10% chance of killing the party instead.
Paladin = Jedi style force powers.
NGL, I was going to mention this, but I decided not to mention something so obvious. After all just pop over to SW5e and read the Jedi or Sith and you will quickly realize they are based on Paladins.
I have been playing D&D for 40 plus years. I played in AD&D groups that used Psionics. That trash ruined games then, and giving it to players now will do the same. The entire mechanics of these things make PC's incredibly OP. And as others have stated, many of the Psionic abilities in AD&D have been introduced as watered down spells. There is zero need to bring that nonsense back into the game.
Just because the original AD&D psionic rules were crap in no way invalidates the concept. Can it be done badly? Sure. Must it? Of course not.
At its heart, any set of psionic rules is just another framework of special powers. D&D already has a bunch of those, though most aside from spell slots are used for only one class or subclass.
Why must every PC be "special"? Why does every single one have to have super-duper mind powers, aka magical abilities? You want to play a PC that has special mind powers? Great. Play a Wizard, or Cleric. or any number of flavours of Warlock. Or better yet, play a Bard that rolls a 25 on Persuasion on a single roll and convinces the evil king to give up his kingdom and give it all away to the poor. Almost every class and subclass has magical features now. There is no need whatsoever to add more mind control.
Well, if it is 'just a natural ability' that some people have, what differentiates that from sorcerers, who are similarly born into their power? And how is it even a class at all? Or even subclass? (The sorcerer concept itself has this problem too, mind.... if one is born with these powers, why does that limit potential to learn other things?)
The most obvious answer would be "you need significant training". Natural, mostly untrained, talent would be done with feats, which is used for giving characters just a little access to most of the other special power systems in the game. (Monks being the only exception I can think of.)
The difference from sorcerers is that sorcerers are tied into the existing spell list, and thus the spell slot system. And, of course, they suffer for it. But "how to differentiate the sorcerer from a warmed-over wizard" is a different topic.
I don't even think D&D needs psionics, and think these are some pretty weak objections.
The base sorcerer class framework is a terrible representation of someone born with magic in their blood and bone. Sorcerers don't really have any business being formal spellcasters unless they learned to channel their power that way, which mostly makes them bad wizards.
That said, the reason the sorcerer class exists - and the reason a psychic class should exist - is because being born with power doesn't mean you can use it meaningfully. My favorite example is the Wild Magic barbarian, who is (potentially) born with power exactly the same way the sorcerer is. But they didn't want to be a God Damned Nerd, so instead they lifted, hit the protein shakes, trained in the dojo, and devoted only as much time to their magic as was needed to figure out how to vent it in the general direction of the enemy before mauling them with an axe. This is a perfect example of someone born with a gift or talent they didn't really develop.
Psychic subs of other classes can fill similar roles,but there's no good option for someone that eishes for their character's psychic abilities to be their focus. And no, the goddamn Aberrant Mind is not and never will be a good answer. I don't want mucus and adventitious eyeballs on every psychic character in the game, thank you very none.
Please do not contact or message me.
Every PC must be special because they're a PC. Why must they have magic powers, or mastery of weapons, or whatever? Because we're not playing 5-point GURPS. Every single level 1 PC in every single version of D&D is already exceptional, with the potential to become vastly more so. Psionics are a not-uncommon trope in fantasy, particularly in the era that most influenced D&D, so some people want it available in the game. Cope.
The problem isn't that psionics aren't available in the game. The problem is that people don't like how it's implemented in the game. And, well, that's the reality of class-based RPGs: you almost always need to compromise your concept, often significantly, to get it to fit within the game.