As I previously said, Gust of Wind can functionally be a telekinetic shove. There’s also the telekinetic feat for bonus action at-will forced movement. No, you can’t do the full Jedi Grip before 9th level, but that’s clearly by design as something they’re not giving anyone sooner because they feel that degree of forced movement is a late tier 2 feature.
The Aberrant Mind has a hard-coded, baked-in, largely unavoidable requirement to be a Disgusting Far-Planar Snot Monster. Can people say "you don't have to be gross!"? Yes. Would any of the people protesting the existence of psychic abilities in this thread accept a non-gross "reflavor" of the Aberrant Mind at their table? No. They would not.
Opinion not justified by facts. I'd certainly allow it. I somewhat feel that your existing play group is toxic, because a lot of the things that you complain about (not limited to psi)... simply don't match my experiences about how people actually play the game.
As Pantagruel keeps saying while trying to convince people to give up their interests and stop wanting what they want, if you're not a summoner kineticist battlemage priest animist illusionist necromancer alchemist aethermancer manasophist spellbinder? You are quite literally nothing and the game is actively and intentionally out to punish you for your hubris. This Is Not Okay, and until people stop screaming at anyone who doesn't want to play The OmniWizard for the forty-third time? You're gonna get threads like this one.
So you don't want generalist spellcasters, but current implementations of psionics are dissatisfying because they aren't generalist enough?
The psionic-ish spells each do one thing, and there are gaps in the sort of things you ought to be able to do if they didn't think to make a spell. And yes, you can add more spells, but then Fred the Wizard can come along, learn Awesome TK Capstone, and do the thing you've been working toward your whole career, while he can't even pick up a pencil. And he throws Meteor Storms, summons demons, etc. If all psi abilities are spells, they must be balanced on the assumption that wizards will get to use them along with all their other stuff. If they are not spells, they can be more powerful while not upsetting the balance of the game.
I'm just not grasping what it is you want. That you don't want something that is spellcasting-adjacent is clear enough, but without knowing what you do want as well as how they should address the problems they ran into before, we're just going to be left vaguely guessing.
It seems fairly clear to me.
Imagine a class. We'll call it Psi. It gets two powers from a list at level one, and another one every two levels or something. It also gets some other abilities. It has a pool of points, dice, or something that lets it power the abilities. How much? Who knows? Who cares?
The meat of the class is those powers. Some of them are free to use. Some always cost. Some cost to juice their effects.
A few examples:
Telepathy: duh
TK: move stuff with your mind, kind of like mage hand. As you level, you can move more stuff, or manage multiple objects. Maybe you can juice it to move extra stuff
TK Strike: basic damage cantrip. Punch people in the face. With Your Brain!!!!
TK push: move people back and forth Probably always costs.
TK armor: requires TK shield. Gives you duration armor class. Probably better than mage armor, or you can juice it.
TK lift: requires TK push. levitation stuff
TK hold: requires level 5 and two TK powers. Stop somebody from moving. Maybe also from acting. dunno
...
Explode: requires level 15, six TK powers, including Crush: Target takes 15d8 force damage, con save for half. If they hit 0 hp, their body explodes, killing them and doing an additional 5d8 force to everyone within ten feet. It's also very gross.
And so on, and so forth. The other types of power get similar trees. Probably there are powers that you can get even if you cross trees. Maybe there are some you have to. Some powers are flexible utility, some are very specific. A lot are combat, because it's still D&D.
There. It's not a wizard. It gets to do cool stuff. It has coherent theme. It's even easier to play than a wizard.
And I'm pretty sure it would fit the bill of the sort of thing Yurei is asking for.
And it would be a colossal headache to actually balance, and that’s before we address the point that it would be trivial to just make psion only spells. It’s not some innate rule of the game that a Wizard can grab everything- and there are some significant holes in point of fact- it’s a deliberate design choice, and one they could simply choose not to exercise if they wanted to make psionic spells.
The Aberrant Mind has a hard-coded, baked-in, largely unavoidable requirement to be a Disgusting Far-Planar Snot Monster. Can people say "you don't have to be gross!"? Yes. Would any of the people protesting the existence of psychic abilities in this thread accept a non-gross "reflavor" of the Aberrant Mind at their table? No. They would not.
Opinion not justified by facts. I'd certainly allow it. I somewhat feel that your existing play group is toxic, because a lot of the things that you complain about (not limited to psi)... simply don't match my experiences about how people actually play the game.
A lot of this goes back into a mounting suspicion that I have about Yurei based on questions and comments that they've made over the last few days: I don't know that they've actually had that much expierience with 5th edition and how it is played in a real world sense; Like they were inferring that subclasses don't actually change or impact the core class that they come from at one point.
Also the Abberant mind is not typically some hideous mutant as they seem convinced which they would have learned if they actually read the material instead of looking for all the ways it isn't their precious psion.
And it would be a colossal headache to actually balance, and that’s before we address the point that it would be trivial to just make psion only spells. It’s not some innate rule of the game that a Wizard can grab everything- and there are some significant holes in point of fact- it’s a deliberate design choice, and one they could simply choose not to exercise if they wanted to make psionic spells.
More to the point, there are clear examples of spells Wizards can’t learn.
I mean, without an outline you're already giving people plenty of ammunition to say that no psionic class can work because its proponents can't form a coherent vision. Nobody is asking you to make a perfect product. Would you be able to point to an existing homebrew or third-party product then? Maybe MCDM's talent, even? I can't speak for anybody else, but I'm perfectly willing to be constructive. I'm not out to get you.
You may not be. Most everybody else very much is. The objective is "abolish psychic abilities from D&D entirely forever" and convincing me I'm a dogshit human being for wanting alternatives to spellcasting is Step 1.
I don't keep up with other people's Psionics homebrew because they invariably try and recreate Old Edition Junk and I have absolutely zero interest in how 2e did psychic abilities. Also because almost all third-party homebrew is wildly incompatible with the digital toolset and so my ability to adopt it is sharply limited. But frankly I consider it telling that people feel like the Telekinetic feat is "the ultimate in PK". Being able to move five whole pounds so long as they're within thirty feet of you and only so long as you don't do damage with it and nobody else is ever within five feet of them is the absolute zenith of kineticist abilities to these folks. Everything else is just too damn powerful to ever allow to happen. Wizards can get at-will Fireball, but fuggoff with being able to use psychokinetic abilities in a way that's actually beneficial or meaningful beyond "I open the door with Mage Hand because Trap Memes."
Pantagruel: my play group is fine. One of our frequent DMs is quite fond of futuristic settings that often lean much harder on psi than Faerun. In one of their games "True Magic" was vanishingly rare and a sure sign ****ery Was Afoot. You want to talk Ohh Pee, talk about a ranger with the Archery fighting style, Sharpshooter, and a +3 laser pistol. Taiko was, quietly and without fanfare, an absolute freaking monstrosity. You want to talk about too-powerful at-will turns, busting 60+ radiant damage at will every round by tenth level will do it. Stuff Was Learned that game.
Ask any of the people in THIS forum, though? If it didn't show up in Tolkien, it has no business in THEIR D&D, and thus it has no business in anyone else's either. Most people in this thread frankly would just ban Aberrant Mind altogether, regardless of flavor, and then gleefully run the dozens and dozens of psychic monsters in the books without a hint of their own hypocrisy.
Wren: mobile means I can't go down your list, but most of those are gross overreaches and you know it. Why would a psykinetic have special abilities to manipulate water but nothing else? Thunder damage is thunder damage, not psykinetic strikes. You've got fire damage and earthbending as well. Great for you if that fits your idea of how PK works, but most of it has very little to do with the common perception of kineticist talents.
But fine. Whatever. I keep forgetting people aren't allowed to have desires in this place, they HAVE to toe the line and play the exact same D&D all the olds have been playing for forty years now. Just... forget it. Let's all go Bear a Ring one more time. Surely the eighty thousandth will be the charm, right?
Psyren, I can't really explain it better than I already have a thousand times before.
Either someone agrees with the fundamental assertion "psychic abilities are not spellcasting, whatsoever, and have no bloody business being treated as such", or they don't. If someone is not capable of seeing/perceiving/understanding that to some people it's simply wrong to treat psychic abilities as being identical to magic, they'll never understand why anyone would object to just being a bad spellcaster.
But why do they need to be completely different? That's what I'm not getting. Even in 3.5, arguably the closest we've gotten to a functioning psionic subsystem, a bunch of psionic powers were just "take a spell, give it Greek roots instead of Latin." Or "use the exact same name as the original and stick 'Psionic' in front of it." So it's not like psionics and spellcasting having a bunch of overlap is anything new. Moreover, magic-psionics- transparency was the default rule too, because making it so that psions could ignore magic resistance, AMF and dispel magic resulted in a balance nightmare.
The only real differences between the two in practice were: (a) points instead of slots as the default, and (b) psionics being particularly bad at emulating certain schools like necromancy and illusion, and also pretty bad at buffing allies, but in exchange you got to do things like self-heal.
Pantagruel, Ace, Ashla, and the rest have made it chear they see no difference whatsoever between psychic abilities and magic. They've all said that a surface level reflavor is all someone needs to get 100% of what they want from psychic characters and anyone who thinks otherwise is just dumb. There's no convincing people otherwise. They'll never "get it", and will rail against people who want a better system forever.
People for whom magic and psychic abilities are distinct, separate, and in many cases straight up incompatible - like myself - will never stop being upset that psychic abilities have been handled so incredibly poorly in this edition. Mages stole their lunch and are getting away with it scot free, and that will never stop being a sore point.
The burden of proof is on you to explain what makes what you want "better." I've already given multiple reasons why it's worse - D&D's long history of non-spellcasting subsystems being underbaked and undersupported, needing convoluted transparency rules so that psionicists can't end-run around the few checks and balances spellcasting even has, and alternative resources being more flash than substance. A point you yourself proved when you noted how even the one alternative resource 5e has, spell points, still hasn't been implemented properly on DDB 10 years after it debuted. How can you look at all that and conclude that what we need are more subsystems?
And it would be a colossal headache to actually balance,
Yes, of course. You think Artificer was an easy job to balance? Monk? Paladin? Wizard? (Whether or not any of those are balanced is an exercise for the student.)
Balance in D&D (or any RPG) can never be better than extremely vague anyway.
"You have to balance it" is in no way a counterargument to a new class. And, compared to wizard, it's easy, because its power is based on a much more limited set of abilities.
(Also, wizard gets to cheat on the balance question, because when a new feature throws things out of whack, it's the spell that's blamed, not the class.)
and that’s before we address the point that it would be trivial to just make psion only spells. It’s not some innate rule of the game that a Wizard can grab everything- and there are some significant holes in point of fact- it’s a deliberate design choice, and one they could simply choose not to exercise if they wanted to make psionic spells.
Yes, and then you lose all the features you could have by not using the spell-slot system -- powering abilities up, maintenance costs, prerequisites, etc. You're trying to use the generalist caster framework for something else, and you're going to get a wizard with no spell selection.
The spell slot system is not fit for this purpose, and trying to force it will just lead to failed designs and weird hacks built on top to try to make it work.
The psionic-ish spells each do one thing, and there are gaps in the sort of things you ought to be able to do if they didn't think to make a spell. And yes, you can add more spells, but then Fred the Wizard can come along, learn Awesome TK Capstone, and do the thing you've been working toward your whole career, while he can't even pick up a pencil. And he throws Meteor Storms, summons demons, etc. If all psi abilities are spells, they must be balanced on the assumption that wizards will get to use them along with all their other stuff. If they are not spells, they can be more powerful while not upsetting the balance of the game.
It seems fairly clear to me.
Imagine a class. We'll call it Psi. It gets two powers from a list at level one, and another one every two levels or something. It also gets some other abilities. It has a pool of points, dice, or something that lets it power the abilities. How much? Who knows? Who cares?
The meat of the class is those powers. Some of them are free to use. Some always cost. Some cost to juice their effects.
A few examples:
Telepathy: duh
TK: move stuff with your mind, kind of like mage hand. As you level, you can move more stuff, or manage multiple objects. Maybe you can juice it to move extra stuff
TK Strike: basic damage cantrip. Punch people in the face. With Your Brain!!!!
TK push: move people back and forth Probably always costs.
TK armor: requires TK shield. Gives you duration armor class. Probably better than mage armor, or you can juice it.
TK lift: requires TK push. levitation stuff
TK hold: requires level 5 and two TK powers. Stop somebody from moving. Maybe also from acting. dunno
...
Explode: requires level 15, six TK powers, including Crush: Target takes 15d8 force damage, con save for half. If they hit 0 hp, their body explodes, killing them and doing an additional 5d8 force to everyone within ten feet. It's also very gross.
And so on, and so forth. The other types of power get similar trees. Probably there are powers that you can get even if you cross trees. Maybe there are some you have to. Some powers are flexible utility, some are very specific. A lot are combat, because it's still D&D.
There. It's not a wizard. It gets to do cool stuff. It has coherent theme. It's even easier to play than a wizard.
And I'm pretty sure it would fit the bill of the sort of thing Yurei is asking for.
I can do nearly everything you've described here by taking a Sorcerer, picking thematic spells + Telepathic + Telekinetic, and using all my sorcery points to either make my castings Subtle (which removes the "finger-waggling woo-woo" Yurei described) or create additional slots. I don't even have to be an Aberrant Mind; that just makes it easier by giving me a bunch of Subtle spells for free.
Ashla, you have made it perfectly plain that you believe psychic abilities have no place in D&D, and that you believe I've never played a game of D&D before due to not believing that bolting a single random weird gimmick to one side of a core class offers a dramatic and meaningful shift in that class's play flow.
You want to know what I mean when I say *meaningful* changes? Do a ranger subclass that implements the core idea of the Spell-less Ranger - the sub entirely removes spellcasting and replaces it with a powerful Superiority system and additional martial capabilities.
Do a Bladesinger that turns the wizard into a half-caster that can mingle leveled spellcasting and martial swordplay in the same turn, implementing spellblade abilities *properly*.
Do a sorcerer that removes spell slots entirely, instead allowing the sorcerer to make a casting roll to successfully cast their spells - their magic isn't 100% reliable but they can cast without limit.
Things that CHANGE THE RULES, not just bolt a small handful of extra actions onto an otherwise ironclad, utterly rigid and inflexible chassis. THEN subclasses could be used to reduce class bloat the way people keep saying they do. But until subclasses are allowed to do that? They're utterly useless for changing up the game flow and feel of a class.
Not that it matters. I'm never going to get the ideal kineticist build, and frankly that's fine. I'd simply like to be able to do *A* kineticist build that isn't a sad ******* joke without having to homebrew the entire goddamn thing from scratch.
There. It's not a wizard. It gets to do cool stuff. It has coherent theme. It's even easier to play than a wizard.
And I'm pretty sure it would fit the bill of the sort of thing Yurei is asking for.
I can do nearly everything you've described here by taking a Sorcerer, picking thematic spells + Telepathic + Telekinetic, and using all my sorcery points to either make my castings Subtle (which removes the "finger-waggling woo-woo" Yurei described) or create additional slots. I don't even have to be an Aberrant Mind; that just makes it easier by giving me a bunch of Subtle spells for free.
Yes, congratulations. You can use the spell list and two feats to reconstruct the basic abilities for a Psi class I typed out off the top of my head to dispute the argument "what Yurei wants is incomprehensible and mysterious." Only worse and more complicated.
Ashla, you have made it perfectly plain that you believe psychic abilities have no place in D&D, and that you believe I've never played a game of D&D before due to not believing that bolting a single random weird gimmick to one side of a core class offers a dramatic and meaningful shift in that class's play flow.
I've literally pointed out that there is a whole setting that was built for it and let me assure you I really do like it and how Psionics are a part of it.
As to not believing you: you've given me little reason to based on your comments and lack of understanding of how whole swathes of classes work.
You want to know what I mean when I say *meaningful* changes? Do a ranger subclass that implements the core idea of the Spell-less Ranger - the sub entirely removes spellcasting and replaces it with a powerful Superiority system and additional martial capabilities.
Can you clarify what that would mean and how it wouldn't just be a battlemaster archer?
Do a Bladesinger that turns the wizard into a half-caster that can mingle leveled spellcasting and martial swordplay in the same turn, implementing spellblade abilities *properly*.
Why do you need that when there are other half classes that can credibly perform that role (IE valor bard, Hexblade)
Do a sorcerer that removes spell slots entirely, instead allowing the sorcerer to make a casting roll to successfully cast their spells - their magic isn't 100% reliable but they can cast without limit.
This sounds like an utter disaster to try and balance and/or make work in anything approaching a timely fashion.
Things that CHANGE THE RULES, not just bolt a small handful of extra actions onto an otherwise ironclad, utterly rigid and inflexible chassis. THEN subclasses could be used to reduce class bloat the way people keep saying they do. But until subclasses are allowed to do that? They're utterly useless for changing up the game flow and feel of a class.
What you're proposing would make the game an absolute nightmare hellscape of rules inconsistancies that would grind the game to a halt as players and GM's try to parse out how anything actually happens.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: you should be playing literally anything else because you apparently don't like D&D.
Yes, congratulations. You can use the spell list and two feats to reconstruct the basic abilities for a Psi class I typed out off the top of my head to dispute the argument "what Yurei wants is incomprehensible and mysterious." Only worse and more complicated.
I don't find what they want to be incomprehensible, I find the desire for it to be completely divorced from everything we currently have to be incomprehensible.
Also worth noting that the sorcerer-as-kineticist is 100% utterly incapable of manipulating any object or entity weighing in excess of ten pounds until ninth level, when it can suddenly manipulate a thousand pounds. Ten pounds or under, or half a ton by the end of a campaign. No in between.
Yurei, ... Please for the love of anything what the hell do you want?
I want psychic abilities to be entirely divorced from spellcasting.
Ok, time for another string of replies and thoughts.
Thank you for replying. While You say what you want, by bashing on what you don't want, you really don't make a good case for what would make you happy.
But I can see:
You dislike the 2 out of the 4 types of casters in 5e D&D (Wizard, Sorcerer) you haven't mentioned Warlock or Monk casting as pro or con, in fact you've kind of ignored that Monk in 5e is basically the 2nd Ed Psionicist reflavored, and you have made it clear you dislike spell slots so the Mystic Reflavored into the Artificer seems out as well.
Meaning you dislike all the official D&D 5e Psionic classes, and subclasses.
Still no description beyond no spell slots, can do melee and or ranged combat big boom up to five times a day. This doesn't give a clear path btw, just sets a desire off in the distance while saying what you don't want in it.
Paraphrase "The OGL of D&D is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural." time to look into 5e systems, and OGL books that have psionic systems not tied to normal D&D mechanics. There is even a Darksun 5e Community, with a bunch of Homebrew based on AD&D and 3.5 psionics. Also Pathfinder is about to release a 5e version of their setting. (Or at least that's the big rumor)
Also while I enjoy the authors of Dragonlace (their non-D&D fantasy books) I am not really a big fan of the setting, it's a grim dark D&D setting that focuses of Big Battles and Grim Dark fantasy battles. Not my flavor, but I can see why some love it.
Me it's Dark Sun, which is ironic, because nothing is more Grim Dark than Darksun, except maybe Warhammer fantasy... and only by a pinch. Darksun is the main Psionic Setting in D&D, as Magic use in the setting counts as a war crime according to the latest Geneva convention.
Which means the one setting that would have forced WotC to finally release a Psionic Class, is on indefinite hold because Hasbro doesn't want to publish a Mature setting that deals with real problematic issues. Note all the Problematic issues with Dark Sun are the things being done by the Villains who control the world. It is the Players Job to fight that evil, free the people, destroy the Sorcerer Kings and try and restore some balance in the lives of the population.
Please stop trying to force people to play other systems...
This is why joining an active 5e Group with open use of Homebrew classes is such a powerful thing. Because it's not hard to use the tools here in DnDB to homebrew up what you want. ie Recreate some semblance of a AD&D or 3.5 psion class. I personally would use Warlock and build it as a subclass, although Monk and Artificer would work as well. Monk already is based on the AD&D PSP system, and Artificer is very much the cleaned up final version of the Mystic. I know you hate spell slots, but that is the primary tracking tool D&D uses in 5e for any ability that has spell like properties, look at Mind Flayers. Mind Flayers...
The reality is, D&D is not a generic game system, it's a system designed for a rather particular game style. Sure, you can't play a mind flayer in D&D... but that's no different from all the other monsters you can't play; if I were to make a list of "monsters players would like to play but can't without completely breaking the game", my list would probably start with the top hits of dragons, vampires, and were-creatures, migrate through some fiends, fey, and celestials, before finally reaching mind flayers. There's game systems that are designed to do that kind of thing, that work to varying degrees, but it's not realistic to expect D&D to become one of them (they made a stab at it with savage species in 3.5e; it worked poorly and got way less support than psi). If you want psi characters in D&D, there are two realistic options
Accept that you're a spellcaster variant.
Use an alternative system that is objectively inferior to spell slots, because they're not going to build a class that might outperform their core classes.
I do sometimes hate how the forum post editor is. At least it made what I'm addressing bold.
D&D has always been a generic table top role playing game system, with each version becoming more universal with each iteration. 5e is one of the most generic easy to use easy to modify game systems. It's why there are so many people making OGL content. The irony being GRUPs a system which was intended to be universal failed hard at doing just that, and other game systems are too focused on one type of gameplay to ever truly be considered universal.
Also while spell mechanics is different than spell casting, psionics is a bit more complicated than just a spellcaster variant, unless you consider a way of the open hand Monk to be a Spell Caster.
Yureil wants a psion, in D&D, well she* can do that, however WotC has chosen to not release a 5e update to the setting that requires them to make the class she wants, which IMO is a mistake, but it's their choice so it is what it is.
A psionist, mystic, psion, battlemind, and monk, are a few known D&D psionic classes from official lore and gameplay mechanics. And yes Monks are psionic in the lore. they can fulfill a caster role, and Yuriel wants a non-slot magic caster. I would use Pact Magic as the alternative, and then build a subclass that becomes one of the known psionic classes (except monk because everyone ignore monk)
Yes she can play it, but she'll have to make it herself, or find it in partnered content or on the homebrew subclass area. Trust me when I say I've seen a few psionic homebrews here on DnDB that are balanced, and I would allow in my game as DM.
(*That is correct? I saw some comment before but I didn't see your response)
I feel like I've explained what I want a thousand times and people keep demanding I do it again. But fine. Here we go.
A "psi" spellcaster gets to use their "psychic abilities" three or four times a day tops, because spell slots ******* suck. The upshot is that mages are supposed to have a huge diversity of options for those three or four daily casts, so they always have exactly what they need.
I would prefer for a psychokinetic character to have at-will access to their abilities, in exchange for not having the ability to cast Counterspell or Conjure Elemental or Hypnotic Pattern or Stinking Cloud or Animate Dead or Polymorph or Blight or Steel Wind Strike or Aganazzar's Scorcher or Wall of Stone or Globe of Invulnerability or Manual Breathing or Dominate Karen or Bestow Taxes or all the three million and fourteen things every single spellcaster in D&D is required to have ready to go at an instant's notice or wind up on CritCrab's channel being excoriated by the entire Internet.
This does not always mean "permanent Telekinesis from level 1". It does mean doing better than goddamn Mage Hand before ninth level.
Honestly, that would be your personal bias against spell slots, they work and are a useful mechanic. But you are describing Pact Magic... While it may resemble spell slots, it's very different.
Also I would just build what you want out of a Monk, I'd grab the 2nd ed Psionics Book, the 3rd ed Darksun books, and the 4th ed book with Battle mind, and build my homebrew out of Monk. Ki points are just PSPs done better. I would use the described 5e spell for their abilities list, and I would give them a spend Ki to gain a feat until (x short amount of time) ability.
As Ki is a limited daily resource. It works perfectly for your needs as a casting resource. Also because psions have more hit points than a caster, and can do melee or sit back and shoot mind bullets, Monk plays well with this. Additionally I've said this a bunch, and if needed I can show it in the lore. Monk is officially a psionic class, and always has been. Hopefully the 2024 edition (5.5) will improve monks to not feel weak in the mid levels.
---
Note I stand in the middle of this issue, always have. As I said Dark Sun is one of my favorite settings, in spite of it's issues. Nothing more heroic than overthrowing dictators and police states.
I feel like I've explained what I want a thousand times and people keep demanding I do it again. But fine. Here we go.
A "psi" spellcaster gets to use their "psychic abilities" three or four times a day tops, because spell slots ******* suck. The upshot is that mages are supposed to have a huge diversity of options for those three or four daily casts, so they always have exactly what they need.
I would prefer for a psychokinetic character to have at-will access to their abilities, in exchange for not having the ability to cast Counterspell or Conjure Elemental or Hypnotic Pattern or Stinking Cloud or Animate Dead or Polymorph or Blight or Steel Wind Strike or Aganazzar's Scorcher or Wall of Stone or Globe of Invulnerability or Manual Breathing or Dominate Karen or Bestow Taxes or all the three million and fourteen things every single spellcaster in D&D is required to have ready to go at an instant's notice or wind up on CritCrab's channel being excoriated by the entire Internet.
This does not always mean "permanent Telekinesis from level 1". It does mean doing better than goddamn Mage Hand before ninth level.
"in exchange for not having the ability to cast .........." So does this mean you want a class that can never duel class into any casting class? What about other classes taking a dip into the psion class. What about using magic items?
Are you born with psionic ability and then learn to use them better or can anyone just learn to tap their own internal psion powers? Everyone has them but some don't use them. Can you develop(learn) new psionic abilities as you level up? Can you max out ALL of those abilities? How many different base abilities are there? Some places say there are only about 6 base abilities but they cover almost everything possible and some claim their are 36 different abilities each very specific.
As I previously said, Gust of Wind can functionally be a telekinetic shove. There’s also the telekinetic feat for bonus action at-will forced movement. No, you can’t do the full Jedi Grip before 9th level, but that’s clearly by design as something they’re not giving anyone sooner because they feel that degree of forced movement is a late tier 2 feature.
Opinion not justified by facts. I'd certainly allow it. I somewhat feel that your existing play group is toxic, because a lot of the things that you complain about (not limited to psi)... simply don't match my experiences about how people actually play the game.
Psychokinetic Spells
CANTRIPS
Blade Ward
Booming Blade
Gust
Mage Hand
Mending
Shape Water
Sword Burst
Thunderclap
FIRST LEVEL
Catapault
Earth Tremor
Expeditious Retreat
Feather fall
Jump
Magic Missile
Shield
Thunderwave
SECOND LEVEL
Air Bubble
Cloud of Daggers
Dustdevil
Earthbind
Gust of Wind
Hold Person
Kinetic Jaunt
Knock
Levitate
Earthen Grasp
Pyrotechnics
Shatter
Spider Climb
Spray of Cards
Warding Wind
THIRD LEVEL
Erupting Earth
Fly
Haste
Minute Meteors
Slow
Wall of Water
Water Walk
The psionic-ish spells each do one thing, and there are gaps in the sort of things you ought to be able to do if they didn't think to make a spell. And yes, you can add more spells, but then Fred the Wizard can come along, learn Awesome TK Capstone, and do the thing you've been working toward your whole career, while he can't even pick up a pencil. And he throws Meteor Storms, summons demons, etc. If all psi abilities are spells, they must be balanced on the assumption that wizards will get to use them along with all their other stuff. If they are not spells, they can be more powerful while not upsetting the balance of the game.
It seems fairly clear to me.
Imagine a class. We'll call it Psi. It gets two powers from a list at level one, and another one every two levels or something. It also gets some other abilities. It has a pool of points, dice, or something that lets it power the abilities. How much? Who knows? Who cares?
The meat of the class is those powers. Some of them are free to use. Some always cost. Some cost to juice their effects.
A few examples:
Telepathy: duh
TK: move stuff with your mind, kind of like mage hand. As you level, you can move more stuff, or manage multiple objects. Maybe you can juice it to move extra stuff
TK Strike: basic damage cantrip. Punch people in the face. With Your Brain!!!!
TK push: move people back and forth Probably always costs.
TK shield: requires TK. Pay power to get shield
TK armor: requires TK shield. Gives you duration armor class. Probably better than mage armor, or you can juice it.
TK lift: requires TK push. levitation stuff
TK hold: requires level 5 and two TK powers. Stop somebody from moving. Maybe also from acting. dunno
...
Explode: requires level 15, six TK powers, including Crush: Target takes 15d8 force damage, con save for half. If they hit 0 hp, their body explodes, killing them and doing an additional 5d8 force to everyone within ten feet. It's also very gross.
And so on, and so forth. The other types of power get similar trees. Probably there are powers that you can get even if you cross trees. Maybe there are some you have to. Some powers are flexible utility, some are very specific. A lot are combat, because it's still D&D.
There. It's not a wizard. It gets to do cool stuff. It has coherent theme. It's even easier to play than a wizard.
And I'm pretty sure it would fit the bill of the sort of thing Yurei is asking for.
And it would be a colossal headache to actually balance, and that’s before we address the point that it would be trivial to just make psion only spells. It’s not some innate rule of the game that a Wizard can grab everything- and there are some significant holes in point of fact- it’s a deliberate design choice, and one they could simply choose not to exercise if they wanted to make psionic spells.
A lot of this goes back into a mounting suspicion that I have about Yurei based on questions and comments that they've made over the last few days: I don't know that they've actually had that much expierience with 5th edition and how it is played in a real world sense; Like they were inferring that subclasses don't actually change or impact the core class that they come from at one point.
Also the Abberant mind is not typically some hideous mutant as they seem convinced which they would have learned if they actually read the material instead of looking for all the ways it isn't their precious psion.
More to the point, there are clear examples of spells Wizards can’t learn.
Quote from Gnomarchy >>
I mean, without an outline you're already giving people plenty of ammunition to say that no psionic class can work because its proponents can't form a coherent vision. Nobody is asking you to make a perfect product. Would you be able to point to an existing homebrew or third-party product then? Maybe MCDM's talent, even? I can't speak for anybody else, but I'm perfectly willing to be constructive. I'm not out to get you.
You may not be. Most everybody else very much is. The objective is "abolish psychic abilities from D&D entirely forever" and convincing me I'm a dogshit human being for wanting alternatives to spellcasting is Step 1.
I don't keep up with other people's Psionics homebrew because they invariably try and recreate Old Edition Junk and I have absolutely zero interest in how 2e did psychic abilities. Also because almost all third-party homebrew is wildly incompatible with the digital toolset and so my ability to adopt it is sharply limited. But frankly I consider it telling that people feel like the Telekinetic feat is "the ultimate in PK". Being able to move five whole pounds so long as they're within thirty feet of you and only so long as you don't do damage with it and nobody else is ever within five feet of them is the absolute zenith of kineticist abilities to these folks. Everything else is just too damn powerful to ever allow to happen. Wizards can get at-will Fireball, but fuggoff with being able to use psychokinetic abilities in a way that's actually beneficial or meaningful beyond "I open the door with Mage Hand because Trap Memes."
Pantagruel: my play group is fine. One of our frequent DMs is quite fond of futuristic settings that often lean much harder on psi than Faerun. In one of their games "True Magic" was vanishingly rare and a sure sign ****ery Was Afoot. You want to talk Ohh Pee, talk about a ranger with the Archery fighting style, Sharpshooter, and a +3 laser pistol. Taiko was, quietly and without fanfare, an absolute freaking monstrosity. You want to talk about too-powerful at-will turns, busting 60+ radiant damage at will every round by tenth level will do it. Stuff Was Learned that game.
Ask any of the people in THIS forum, though? If it didn't show up in Tolkien, it has no business in THEIR D&D, and thus it has no business in anyone else's either. Most people in this thread frankly would just ban Aberrant Mind altogether, regardless of flavor, and then gleefully run the dozens and dozens of psychic monsters in the books without a hint of their own hypocrisy.
Wren: mobile means I can't go down your list, but most of those are gross overreaches and you know it. Why would a psykinetic have special abilities to manipulate water but nothing else? Thunder damage is thunder damage, not psykinetic strikes. You've got fire damage and earthbending as well. Great for you if that fits your idea of how PK works, but most of it has very little to do with the common perception of kineticist talents.
But fine. Whatever. I keep forgetting people aren't allowed to have desires in this place, they HAVE to toe the line and play the exact same D&D all the olds have been playing for forty years now. Just... forget it. Let's all go Bear a Ring one more time. Surely the eighty thousandth will be the charm, right?
Please do not contact or message me.
But why do they need to be completely different? That's what I'm not getting. Even in 3.5, arguably the closest we've gotten to a functioning psionic subsystem, a bunch of psionic powers were just "take a spell, give it Greek roots instead of Latin." Or "use the exact same name as the original and stick 'Psionic' in front of it." So it's not like psionics and spellcasting having a bunch of overlap is anything new. Moreover, magic-psionics- transparency was the default rule too, because making it so that psions could ignore magic resistance, AMF and dispel magic resulted in a balance nightmare.
The only real differences between the two in practice were: (a) points instead of slots as the default, and (b) psionics being particularly bad at emulating certain schools like necromancy and illusion, and also pretty bad at buffing allies, but in exchange you got to do things like self-heal.
The burden of proof is on you to explain what makes what you want "better." I've already given multiple reasons why it's worse - D&D's long history of non-spellcasting subsystems being underbaked and undersupported, needing convoluted transparency rules so that psionicists can't end-run around the few checks and balances spellcasting even has, and alternative resources being more flash than substance. A point you yourself proved when you noted how even the one alternative resource 5e has, spell points, still hasn't been implemented properly on DDB 10 years after it debuted. How can you look at all that and conclude that what we need are more subsystems?
Yes, of course. You think Artificer was an easy job to balance? Monk? Paladin? Wizard? (Whether or not any of those are balanced is an exercise for the student.)
Balance in D&D (or any RPG) can never be better than extremely vague anyway.
"You have to balance it" is in no way a counterargument to a new class. And, compared to wizard, it's easy, because its power is based on a much more limited set of abilities.
(Also, wizard gets to cheat on the balance question, because when a new feature throws things out of whack, it's the spell that's blamed, not the class.)
Yes, and then you lose all the features you could have by not using the spell-slot system -- powering abilities up, maintenance costs, prerequisites, etc. You're trying to use the generalist caster framework for something else, and you're going to get a wizard with no spell selection.
The spell slot system is not fit for this purpose, and trying to force it will just lead to failed designs and weird hacks built on top to try to make it work.
I can do nearly everything you've described here by taking a Sorcerer, picking thematic spells + Telepathic + Telekinetic, and using all my sorcery points to either make my castings Subtle (which removes the "finger-waggling woo-woo" Yurei described) or create additional slots. I don't even have to be an Aberrant Mind; that just makes it easier by giving me a bunch of Subtle spells for free.
Ashla, you have made it perfectly plain that you believe psychic abilities have no place in D&D, and that you believe I've never played a game of D&D before due to not believing that bolting a single random weird gimmick to one side of a core class offers a dramatic and meaningful shift in that class's play flow.
You want to know what I mean when I say *meaningful* changes? Do a ranger subclass that implements the core idea of the Spell-less Ranger - the sub entirely removes spellcasting and replaces it with a powerful Superiority system and additional martial capabilities.
Do a Bladesinger that turns the wizard into a half-caster that can mingle leveled spellcasting and martial swordplay in the same turn, implementing spellblade abilities *properly*.
Do a sorcerer that removes spell slots entirely, instead allowing the sorcerer to make a casting roll to successfully cast their spells - their magic isn't 100% reliable but they can cast without limit.
Things that CHANGE THE RULES, not just bolt a small handful of extra actions onto an otherwise ironclad, utterly rigid and inflexible chassis. THEN subclasses could be used to reduce class bloat the way people keep saying they do. But until subclasses are allowed to do that? They're utterly useless for changing up the game flow and feel of a class.
Not that it matters. I'm never going to get the ideal kineticist build, and frankly that's fine. I'd simply like to be able to do *A* kineticist build that isn't a sad ******* joke without having to homebrew the entire goddamn thing from scratch.
Please do not contact or message me.
I think MCDM's Talent class might be close-ish to what you're looking for?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GN_9EiOGk88
https://shop.mcdmproductions.com/collections/the-talent-and-psionics/products/the-talent
Yes, congratulations. You can use the spell list and two feats to reconstruct the basic abilities for a Psi class I typed out off the top of my head to dispute the argument "what Yurei wants is incomprehensible and mysterious." Only worse and more complicated.
I've literally pointed out that there is a whole setting that was built for it and let me assure you I really do like it and how Psionics are a part of it.
As to not believing you: you've given me little reason to based on your comments and lack of understanding of how whole swathes of classes work.
Can you clarify what that would mean and how it wouldn't just be a battlemaster archer?
Why do you need that when there are other half classes that can credibly perform that role (IE valor bard, Hexblade)
This sounds like an utter disaster to try and balance and/or make work in anything approaching a timely fashion.
What you're proposing would make the game an absolute nightmare hellscape of rules inconsistancies that would grind the game to a halt as players and GM's try to parse out how anything actually happens.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: you should be playing literally anything else because you apparently don't like D&D.
I don't find what they want to be incomprehensible, I find the desire for it to be completely divorced from everything we currently have to be incomprehensible.
Also worth noting that the sorcerer-as-kineticist is 100% utterly incapable of manipulating any object or entity weighing in excess of ten pounds until ninth level, when it can suddenly manipulate a thousand pounds. Ten pounds or under, or half a ton by the end of a campaign. No in between.
This is not how psykinetic characters work.
Please do not contact or message me.
Ok, time for another string of replies and thoughts.
Thank you for replying. While You say what you want, by bashing on what you don't want, you really don't make a good case for what would make you happy.
But I can see:
You dislike the 2 out of the 4 types of casters in 5e D&D (Wizard, Sorcerer) you haven't mentioned Warlock or Monk casting as pro or con, in fact you've kind of ignored that Monk in 5e is basically the 2nd Ed Psionicist reflavored, and you have made it clear you dislike spell slots so the Mystic Reflavored into the Artificer seems out as well.
Meaning you dislike all the official D&D 5e Psionic classes, and subclasses.
Still no description beyond no spell slots, can do melee and or ranged combat big boom up to five times a day. This doesn't give a clear path btw, just sets a desire off in the distance while saying what you don't want in it.
Paraphrase " The OGL of D&D is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural." time to look into 5e systems, and OGL books that have psionic systems not tied to normal D&D mechanics. There is even a Darksun 5e Community, with a bunch of Homebrew based on AD&D and 3.5 psionics. Also Pathfinder is about to release a 5e version of their setting. (Or at least that's the big rumor)
Also while I enjoy the authors of Dragonlace (their non-D&D fantasy books) I am not really a big fan of the setting, it's a grim dark D&D setting that focuses of Big Battles and Grim Dark fantasy battles. Not my flavor, but I can see why some love it.
Me it's Dark Sun, which is ironic, because nothing is more Grim Dark than Darksun, except maybe Warhammer fantasy... and only by a pinch. Darksun is the main Psionic Setting in D&D, as Magic use in the setting counts as a war crime according to the latest Geneva convention.
Which means the one setting that would have forced WotC to finally release a Psionic Class, is on indefinite hold because Hasbro doesn't want to publish a Mature setting that deals with real problematic issues. Note all the Problematic issues with Dark Sun are the things being done by the Villains who control the world. It is the Players Job to fight that evil, free the people, destroy the Sorcerer Kings and try and restore some balance in the lives of the population.
This is why joining an active 5e Group with open use of Homebrew classes is such a powerful thing. Because it's not hard to use the tools here in DnDB to homebrew up what you want. ie Recreate some semblance of a AD&D or 3.5 psion class. I personally would use Warlock and build it as a subclass, although Monk and Artificer would work as well. Monk already is based on the AD&D PSP system, and Artificer is very much the cleaned up final version of the Mystic. I know you hate spell slots, but that is the primary tracking tool D&D uses in 5e for any ability that has spell like properties, look at Mind Flayers. Mind Flayers...
I do sometimes hate how the forum post editor is. At least it made what I'm addressing bold.
D&D has always been a generic table top role playing game system, with each version becoming more universal with each iteration. 5e is one of the most generic easy to use easy to modify game systems. It's why there are so many people making OGL content. The irony being GRUPs a system which was intended to be universal failed hard at doing just that, and other game systems are too focused on one type of gameplay to ever truly be considered universal.
Also while spell mechanics is different than spell casting, psionics is a bit more complicated than just a spellcaster variant, unless you consider a way of the open hand Monk to be a Spell Caster.
Yureil wants a psion, in D&D, well she* can do that, however WotC has chosen to not release a 5e update to the setting that requires them to make the class she wants, which IMO is a mistake, but it's their choice so it is what it is.
A psionist, mystic, psion, battlemind, and monk, are a few known D&D psionic classes from official lore and gameplay mechanics. And yes Monks are psionic in the lore. they can fulfill a caster role, and Yuriel wants a non-slot magic caster. I would use Pact Magic as the alternative, and then build a subclass that becomes one of the known psionic classes (except monk because everyone ignore monk)
Yes she can play it, but she'll have to make it herself, or find it in partnered content or on the homebrew subclass area. Trust me when I say I've seen a few psionic homebrews here on DnDB that are balanced, and I would allow in my game as DM.
(*That is correct? I saw some comment before but I didn't see your response)
Honestly, that would be your personal bias against spell slots, they work and are a useful mechanic. But you are describing Pact Magic... While it may resemble spell slots, it's very different.
Also I would just build what you want out of a Monk, I'd grab the 2nd ed Psionics Book, the 3rd ed Darksun books, and the 4th ed book with Battle mind, and build my homebrew out of Monk. Ki points are just PSPs done better. I would use the described 5e spell for their abilities list, and I would give them a spend Ki to gain a feat until (x short amount of time) ability.
As Ki is a limited daily resource. It works perfectly for your needs as a casting resource. Also because psions have more hit points than a caster, and can do melee or sit back and shoot mind bullets, Monk plays well with this. Additionally I've said this a bunch, and if needed I can show it in the lore. Monk is officially a psionic class, and always has been. Hopefully the 2024 edition (5.5) will improve monks to not feel weak in the mid levels.
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Note I stand in the middle of this issue, always have. As I said Dark Sun is one of my favorite settings, in spite of it's issues. Nothing more heroic than overthrowing dictators and police states.
"in exchange for not having the ability to cast .........."
So does this mean you want a class that can never duel class into any casting class?
What about other classes taking a dip into the psion class.
What about using magic items?
Are you born with psionic ability and then learn to use them better or can anyone just learn to tap their own internal psion powers? Everyone has them but some don't use them.
Can you develop(learn) new psionic abilities as you level up? Can you max out ALL of those abilities?
How many different base abilities are there? Some places say there are only about 6 base abilities but they cover almost everything possible and some claim their are 36 different abilities each very specific.
I guess we’re not going to get a straight answer as to why s Sorcerer can’t scratch that itch.
Seems like a waste of time to invest any more energy into this thread when Yurei isn’t going to answer such questions.