A discrete, standalone, subsystem is not "minor variations". (Well, maybe "just do it with spell slots" would be, if you're gonna patch it to make it more psychic-like.)
That has its own confusion load, as I've mentioned, but it's fundamentally different in type; more of an initial hurdle issue than an ongoing "which one is this?" Does anyone think battlemaster powers, or warlock invocations, or artificer infusions, are confusing just because they're not spells? (The answer is almost certainly "yes", but not statistically significant.) "There are too many classes and subclasses, each with their own things", is much more common, and legit, but 5e has a definite design decision on that axis already.
I meant that past iterations of psionics have themselves been, quote, "a pile of arbitrary decisions." Like all their failed attempts at nontransparency and psionic combat which led to them abandoning those ideas entirely in the XPH.
Yes, piles of arbitrary decisions are very traditional in D&D. They've been moving away from them in favor of actual systems design since 3e, though 5e definitely has some backsliding.
If instead all you want is a tiny menu of abilities like battlemaster powers, I have good news, Psi Warrior and Soulknife exist. If instead what you want are a larger menu of supplemental options like Invocations and Infusions - hey, did you notice how those aren't the core of their respective classes and how they both needed spellcasting to go alongside them?
I don't think I agree on the artificer (not deeply familiar with it), and definitely disagree on the warlock. Warlocks' meat is the invocations, pact boons, and patron powers. I think I can make a solid case that they'd be better off with less casting and more other stuff. (And their casting is already not really in the standard spell slot model.)
(I'm not going to make that case here, because it's off topic.)
And if what you're asking for is something that bears no resemblance to any of those, or any iteration of psionics that came before - well fine, "make me something that has never existed and that I can't adequately describe" is certainly a thing you can ask for, but you know, good luck with that.
Here's my secret: I can't describe what I want out of a psychic class because I don't want one.
Well, really, "won't" more than "can't". If I wanted one, I could design one. It's not hard*. I am not, nor are WotC's designers, shackled to the past. If I were tasked with designing such a beast from first principles, there'd be some back and forth to determine the scope of the assignment, then I'd crank out some concepts. I'd have a leg up on WotC's designers because I've already considered and discarded the spell slot model. (On the other hand, they've got hands-on experience with the system, people to bounce ideas off, and way more resources.)
The past tries are useful, mostly as a source of power ideas, but if they all sucked, that's all they're good for.
* The iteration, that's... still not hard, just time consuming. The ability to backtrack on your ideas when they don't work out is kinda hard, but I have practice.
Then there's things they might be willing to do but would need better arguments than "I don't like it", such as
A new class. They've published all of one new class since 2014, they're clearly unenthusiastic about it.
A system that doesn't use spell slots. Spell slots have a bunch of useful predefined interactions (including things like multiclassing) and are standard for the game.
I still don't know what the aversion to spell slots even is. Is it the word "spell?"
It's that spell slots work (more or less) for a system of unconnected generalist powers with clear power tiering.
Once you introduce at least one of:
Interconnectedness
Low diversity
Flexible scaling
A few other properties that didn't pop into my head right now
The system really starts to show its flaws.
Yes, I suppose you could build a power hierarchy system that you power at varying levels with spell slots, but then you have to answer the question: Why?
Yes, piles of arbitrary decisions are very traditional in D&D. They've been moving away from them in favor of actual systems design since 3e, though 5e definitely has some backsliding.
3rd's approach to "actual systems" was god damn atrocious and I am ecstatic that the jokers who came up with them once you scratched the shiny veneer off went off to found Pathfinder.
Yes, piles of arbitrary decisions are very traditional in D&D. They've been moving away from them in favor of actual systems design since 3e, though 5e definitely has some backsliding.
"Backsliding?" 5e has far better system design than 3e ever did. 3e town guards couldn't even keep watch. Casters got free spells for pumping the stats they were going to pump anyway. Martials couldn't move and full attack.
There were tons of subsystems in 3e and every single one absolutely sucked compared to spellcasting, even psionics which was the second-best one. Give me a break.
Here's my secret: I can't describe what I want out of a psychic class because I don't want one.
Well, really, "won't" more than "can't". If I wanted one, I could design one. It's not hard*. I am not, nor are WotC's designers, shackled to the past. If I were tasked with designing such a beast from first principles, there'd be some back and forth to determine the scope of the assignment, then I'd crank out some concepts. I'd have a leg up on WotC's designers because I've already considered and discarded the spell slot model.
And you still haven't said what benefit discarding it gets you, besides "I just want something new." Enjoy your bread submarine.
It's that spell slots work (more or less) for a system of unconnected generalist powers with clear power tiering.
Once you introduce at least one of:
Interconnectedness
Low diversity
Flexible scaling
A few other properties that didn't pop into my head right now
The system really starts to show its flaws.
Yes, I suppose you could build a power hierarchy system that you power at varying levels with spell slots, but then you have to answer the question: Why?
You know what else was a system of unconnected generalist powers with clear power tiering? Psionics.
The only way to get away from that is to make something so narrow in focus and weak that it won't be on par with spellcasting. Which we got, via Psi Warrior and Soulknife, so that's fine.
"Backsliding?" 5e has far better system design than 3e ever did. 3e town guards couldn't even keep watch. Casters got free spells for pumping the stats they were going to pump anyway. Martials couldn't move and full attack.
There were tons of subsystems in 3e and every single one absolutely sucked compared to spellcasting, even psionics which was the second-best one. Give me a break.
Don't forget how the whole damn thing was constructed in such a way where they all but screamed at you "Play wizard or cleric" with how the "actual systems" did almost nothing to curb the rampant power gaming those classes offered up relative to say... the fighter(which seems to have been designed to afford other classes a way to get as many feats as possible so that you met whatever minimum requirement eisted for the prestige class you actually wanted to play..
Shouldn't Marvel comics to publish X-Men because Avengers is enough? Or DC wouldn't need Teen Titans because Justice League is enough.
Aren't there enough PC species? But WotC is publishing more and more.
If WotC doesn't want to publish a psionic mystic it's because sourcerbooks with classes using special game mechanics are more difficult to be sold. Maybe this could change thanks D&D-Beyond and DM-Guild because online-sales saving the printing and sending.
There are hundreds of pokemons, and more ones are created for the last videogames. Hasbro is creating new characters to sell more action figures. Disney is creating new characters for the future movies.
Even Paizo published "Ocult Adventures" with the classes: kineticist, medium, mesmerist, occultist, psychic and spiritualist.
Maybe there is in the next year a new manga where the main characters have got psionic powers, but they aren't wellcome in a fantasy world ruled by the magic, something style X-Men as intruders in Harry Potter saga. Then the psionic powers become popular.
Even Paizo published "Ocult Adventures" with the classes: kineticist, medium, mesmerist, occultist, psychic and spiritualist.
Yeah they did, and you know what those classes were? Spellcasters, who didn't need a pile of brand new powers, feats, magic items, and racial interactions to work. Even Kineticist, the most unique of the bunch, had a bunch of invocations talents that simply replicated spells.
Paizo gave their "psychic spells" components (Thought instead of Verbal, and Emotion instead of Somatic) that managed to feel psionic while still allowing for the kinds of interactions and counterplay that spell components do. And they made sure that all spells are noticeable in some way, even without having hand movements or chanting, preventing a lone psychic from wreaking havoc in any unprepared nation. It was honestly brilliant, and furthermore it's getting more ongoing support than psionics ever did. If WotC decided to do psionics as psychic spellcasting I'd be all for it.
It's that spell slots work (more or less) for a system of unconnected generalist powers with clear power tiering.
Once you introduce at least one of:
Interconnectedness
Low diversity
Flexible scaling
A few other properties that didn't pop into my head right now
The system really starts to show its flaws.
Yes, I suppose you could build a power hierarchy system that you power at varying levels with spell slots, but then you have to answer the question: Why?
I could perfectly well do everything you describe with spell slots. To the degree spell slots have a value, it's in the fact that they compel use of intermediate power levels -- on a spell point system you're almost always either casting at max power or very low power, because if it's worth spending on, it's worth spending a lot on.
Just because sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic does not mean sufficiently advance technology and magic are the same thing.
If there can be one method to break the laws of physics, there can be other different methods that break the laws of physics, yet achieve the same end results.
If the 'sufficiently advanced technology' breaks the laws of physics, it's magic.
This just in... Star Trek is magic.
Here in the real world, the speed of sound was once considered an unsurpassable flight barrier, too.
"Known physics" is the better term. My apologies for shortening it. In a world where magic works, there are clearly different laws of physics per the definition. In a setting where extra planar beings are normally considered magical, yet are clearly natural to their home planes, what constitutes "natural" and "the laws of physics" will be different than those in the reality we live in and consider our real lives. Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic based on our current views on what is possible.
Arthur C. Clarke's law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
The true question is if there is a enough number of players willing to spend money for a sourcebook of psionic powers, or digital content in D&D Beyond.
What if any players suggest to add any ideas by 3PPs? For example a discipline about spirits and souls. Or a class like warlock, with a different pool of power points but the recovering is faster.
I love the concept of the psionic ardent like a frienemy of the clerics. "We don't hate you but either you to be wellcome here".
* The monsters with anti-magic effects, for example the beholders, could need a different XPs value if some PC is a psionic manifester.
The true question is if there is a enough number of players willing to spend money for a sourcebook of psionic powers, or digital content in D&D Beyond.
And would those people be okay paying for psychic spellcasting as opposed to some brand new system that would take a lot more work and end up undersupported going forward. I think most players would be fine with psychic/psionic spells.
Aren't there enough PC species? But WotC is publishing more and more.
Given that the 30 races that were listed in Tome were rendered so bland and generic that their descriptions were pretty much freely interchangable I'd really rather they didn't add more.
If WotC doesn't want to publish a psionic mystic it's because sourcerbooks with classes using special game mechanics are more difficult to be sold. Maybe this could change thanks D&D-Beyond and DM-Guild because online-sales saving the printing and sending.
They did publish a psionic class. It went over like a lead baloon because it was a confusing mess.
Disney is creating new characters for the future movies.
They aren't really, they're mostly just recycling the same characters and tropes over and over. That they're giving barbie a new hat doesn't change this.
Maybe there is in the next year a new manga where the main characters have got psionic powers, but they aren't wellcome in a fantasy world ruled by the magic, something style X-Men as intruders in Harry Potter saga. Then the psionic powers become popular.
Maybe someone will make a manga/anime about a really powerful guy who keeps insisting that he's psychic but is actually magic which people keep pointing out to him over and over again... and it becomes really popular so people stop trying to deliniate this.
The monsters with anti-magic effects, for example the beholders, could need a different XPs value if some PC is a psionic manifester.
So, right here? You;ve shown that you don't really understand the point of beholder fights.
Beholder fights are at their core a challenge for both players and the GM since on any given turn the Beholder can shut down the magic of any party member by just facing them with it's central eye. This means no spells or magic items work and thus the players are forced to really think about how to deal with this. This isn't exactly easy mode for the Beholder though, since the same rules that are making the wizard regret wearing his white robes instead of the brown ones is preventing the beholder from using it's other eye beams and thus forcing it to engage in melee combat.
As a result everyone at the table needs to think carefully about positioning, turn sequences, non magic abilities and any other things that they can pull together to get a leg up on the other guys. This is Good!
A player being able to just turn around and Flex the encounter because his magic isn't effected while everyone else has to actually think carefully fundamentally undermines it.
Yes, piles of arbitrary decisions are very traditional in D&D. They've been moving away from them in favor of actual systems design since 3e, though 5e definitely has some backsliding.
"Backsliding?" 5e has far better system design than 3e ever did.
Did anything happen between 3rd edition and 5th edition?
3e town guards couldn't even keep watch. Casters got free spells for pumping the stats they were going to pump anyway. Martials couldn't move and full attack.
There were tons of subsystems in 3e and every single one absolutely sucked compared to spellcasting, even psionics which was the second-best one. Give me a break.
I admit that I never got deep into 3.
But they very clearly actually designed it, which was miles ahead of what had come before. I doesn't have to be great. It doesn't even have to be good. It certainly doesn't have to be to your taste. All it needs is a more-or-less coherent rules model.
And, before you say it, yes "use spell slots for all powers" would be a coherent rules model. And 5e doesn't do that. It's never done that. It uses it for all casters, which works, until you have a caster archetype that doesn't fit the mold. They've not yet made the jump from "spells and powers" to "just powers", but it's an obvious step.
Here's my secret: I can't describe what I want out of a psychic class because I don't want one.
Well, really, "won't" more than "can't". If I wanted one, I could design one. It's not hard*. I am not, nor are WotC's designers, shackled to the past. If I were tasked with designing such a beast from first principles, there'd be some back and forth to determine the scope of the assignment, then I'd crank out some concepts. I'd have a leg up on WotC's designers because I've already considered and discarded the spell slot model.
And you still haven't said what benefit discarding it gets you, besides "I just want something new." Enjoy your bread submarine.
I literally said it (again) in the post you're responding to.
You disagreeing with the argument does not make it not exist.
It's that spell slots work (more or less) for a system of unconnected generalist powers with clear power tiering.
Once you introduce at least one of:
Interconnectedness
Low diversity
Flexible scaling
A few other properties that didn't pop into my head right now
The system really starts to show its flaws.
Yes, I suppose you could build a power hierarchy system that you power at varying levels with spell slots, but then you have to answer the question: Why?
You know what else was a system of unconnected generalist powers with clear power tiering? Psionics.
And how did that work out? I understand it didn't go well, so perhaps a different approach might fare better.
The only way to get away from that is to make something so narrow in focus and weak that it won't be on par with spellcasting. Which we got, via Psi Warrior and Soulknife, so that's fine.
I realize that thinking about systems abstractions is a specialized skill, but can you really not imagine the existence of another functional system beyond the ones that you have? It doesn't have to be one you'd want to play, but just consider the vague possibility that the design space may not be played out.
It's that spell slots work (more or less) for a system of unconnected generalist powers with clear power tiering.
Once you introduce at least one of:
Interconnectedness
Low diversity
Flexible scaling
A few other properties that didn't pop into my head right now
The system really starts to show its flaws.
Yes, I suppose you could build a power hierarchy system that you power at varying levels with spell slots, but then you have to answer the question: Why?
I could perfectly well do everything you describe with spell slots.
And I can write security-critical internet code in C. Doesn't make it a good idea.
Now, admittedly, trying to build a different power system out of spell slots is not anything like that bad, but you're still working against what it's good at, and you're going to end up tacking additional mechanics on if you don't want to end up with "yet another wizard".
To the degree spell slots have a value, it's in the fact that they compel use of intermediate power levels -- on a spell point system you're almost always either casting at max power or very low power, because if it's worth spending on, it's worth spending a lot on.
They only do that in multiple-encounter-day games. in short-day games, you just gun with the big guns.
In those games, any spell-pointesque player won't just blow out their charge ASAP because they're then out of juice. They have strong encouragement to try for the minimum level of power required.
But they very clearly actually designed it, which was miles ahead of what had come before. I doesn't have to be great. It doesn't even have to be good. It certainly doesn't have to be to your taste. All it needs is a more-or-less coherent rules model.
Aren't there enough PC species? But WotC is publishing more and more.
Given that the 30 races that were listed in Tome were rendered so bland and generic that their descriptions were pretty much freely interchangable I'd really rather they didn't add more.
If WotC doesn't want to publish a psionic mystic it's because sourcerbooks with classes using special game mechanics are more difficult to be sold. Maybe this could change thanks D&D-Beyond and DM-Guild because online-sales saving the printing and sending.
They did publish a psionic class. It went over like a lead baloon because it was a confusing mess.
Maybe there is in the next year a new manga where the main characters have got psionic powers, but they aren't welcome in a fantasy world ruled by the magic, something style X-Men as intruders in Harry Potter saga. Then the psionic powers become popular.
Maybe someone will make a manga/anime about a really powerful guy who keeps insisting that he's psychic but is actually magic which people keep pointing out to him over and over again... and it becomes really popular so people stop trying to deliniate this.
There is magic that does things normally associated with psychics. The concept that there could be a story or even a campaign where the main character turns out to be something other than what they believed themselves to be is not a new plot development concept.
That does not make it the plot development (or mechanic) that people who want a psychic/Psion class are looking for.
That it is a difficult and possibly impossible dream to come up with a class that fits the criteria but is nevertheless balanced with what already exists is a legitimate argument. Tempering expectations does not need to outright invalidate the desires of those seeking such a character class.
And not sure what about existing races is considered interchangeable, other than that they are sentient races and disengaging race and culture from each other does not change the physiological differences, even if going with the Tashas stat bonus model.
I wish people in this dialogue would stop staring opinions as facts, stop making declarations, and start providing evidence and reasoning.
Somebody please tell me with evidence and reasoning _why_. Psi points are a better choice for Psions than spell levels.
My understanding is that the biggest issue with Aberrant Mind as the Psion class is not merely that it has spell slots, but that the spells cast (including those with subtle magic or with psionic magic, actually) are still magic, with respect to interacting with anti-magic effects and to the extent they are castable conventionally without metamagic, are cast conventionally, with the same verbal, somatic and/or material components as when cast by any other sorcerer or for that matter any other class which can cast them.
That said, something other than spell slots would be preferrable just to differentiate the class better as 'something different.' But it would still have to be non-magical in nature to be properly psi (or at least a completely different type of magic that does not count as 'magic' for spells that target/interact with magic.
I wish people in this dialogue would stop staring opinions as facts, stop making declarations, and start providing evidence and reasoning.
Somebody please tell me with evidence and reasoning _why_. Psi points are a better choice for Psions than spell levels.
You're asking for an opinion there. There's no one true way of game design. Outside of relatively uninteresting questions like "this die mechanic has this result curve", it's all, ultimately, opinion. It's often opinion backed with "these other opinions with occasional facts support my conclusion", but, in the end, it's always "This is what I want out of a game."
That said:
The D&D spell system is made for generalist casters, characters who can throw lightning, and summon a demon, and punch people with a big glowy hand, and, and, and.
If you just made a list of "these are the psychic spells, and the psychic caster can choose from them", you tend to end up with a psychic character who can speak telepathically, and move objects with their mind -- but only to injure people, and do long-range teleports -- but not short, and see the future a little, etc.
This fails to match the fiction that it's attempting to evoke.
And yes, you can choose coherent powers. Maybe. If there's enough of them.
It's lot like trying to make a fire mage. You end up with all the interesting fire spells, and then more attack spells than you actually need, because that's all there is. Lots of the generally useful spells are outside your scope. You can either take them and compromise your concept, deliberately make your character weaker, or do unsatisfying rechroming. ("I counter your spell... WITH FIRE! No, no... it doesn't do any damage or anything. It's just a counterspell.") If you could choose to only pick fire powers, and actually get something for it, likely access to better fire spells that only fire mages have, you'd be all over that. But that ain't how it works.
And, once you've abandoned the standard spell system anyway, you need some kind of way to manage your resources.
The D&D spell system is made for generalist casters, characters who can throw lightning, and summon a demon, and punch people with a big glowy hand, and, and, and.
No, the D&D classes are made for that. That's essentially unrelated to spell slots, you'd see the same effect on a spell point system. The main thing it does is encourage you to change which your primary spells are as you level up, which could be fixed by spells with better scaling on upcasting.
It's lot like trying to make a fire mage. You end up with all the interesting fire spells, and then more attack spells than you actually need, because that's all there is. Lots of the generally useful spells are outside your scope. You can either take them and compromise your concept, deliberately make your character weaker, or do unsatisfying rechroming.
I believe I've commented that psi is just the specialist caster problem before.
My understanding is that the biggest issue with Aberrant Mind as the Psion class is not merely that it has spell slots, but that the spells cast (including those with subtle magic or with psionic magic, actually) are still magic, with respect to interacting with anti-magic effects and to the extent they are castable conventionally without metamagic, are cast conventionally, with the same verbal, somatic and/or material components as when cast by any other sorcerer or for that matter any other class which can cast them.
The bolded, right here? This is why psionics is never going to be a thing wholly diverged from magic; the rest of the system simply isn't built with a treehouse magic system in mind and as such would either require a massive overhaul of the monster compendium and/or class options to allow for counter-play (which would piss off psi enthusiasts) or just leave them with an absurd exploit (Which would piss off everyone else).
Alternately, GM's just keep contriving limitations on Psions in order to bring them down to earth which is basically bullying.
I wish people in this dialogue would stop staring opinions as facts, stop making declarations, and start providing evidence and reasoning.
Somebody please tell me with evidence and reasoning _why_. Psi points are a better choice for Psions than spell levels.
You're asking for an opinion there. There's no one true way of game design. Outside of relatively uninteresting questions like "this die mechanic has this result curve", it's all, ultimately, opinion. It's often opinion backed with "these other opinions with occasional facts support my conclusion", but, in the end, it's always "This is what I want out of a game."
That said:
The D&D spell system is made for generalist casters, characters who can throw lightning, and summon a demon, and punch people with a big glowy hand, and, and, and.
If you just made a list of "these are the psychic spells, and the psychic caster can choose from them", you tend to end up with a psychic character who can speak telepathically, and move objects with their mind -- but only to injure people, and do long-range teleports -- but not short, and see the future a little, etc.
This fails to match the fiction that it's attempting to evoke.
And yes, you can choose coherent powers. Maybe. If there's enough of them.
It's lot like trying to make a fire mage. You end up with all the interesting fire spells, and then more attack spells than you actually need, because that's all there is. Lots of the generally useful spells are outside your scope. You can either take them and compromise your concept, deliberately make your character weaker, or do unsatisfying rechroming. ("I counter your spell... WITH FIRE! No, no... it doesn't do any damage or anything. It's just a counterspell.") If you could choose to only pick fire powers, and actually get something for it, likely access to better fire spells that only fire mages have, you'd be all over that. But that ain't how it works.
And, once you've abandoned the standard spell system anyway, you need some kind of way to manage your resources.
Thank you for the reply.
”The D&D spell system is made for generalist casters,”
What’s your proof of this?
“”
If you just made a list of "these are the psychic spells, and the psychic caster can choose from them", you tend to end up with a psychic character who can speak telepathically, and move objects with their mind -- but only to injure people, and do long-range teleports -- but not short, and see the future a little, etc.
This fails to match the fiction that it's attempting to evoke”
Let’s test that.
Cantrips
Mage Hand
Message
1st Level
Chsrm Person
Distort Value
Distort Value
Feather Fall Floating Disk Jump
Magic Missile *
Shirld
Tasha’s Hideous Laughter
Unseen Servant
2nd level Blindness / Deafness
Borrowed Knowledge
Cloud of Daggers *
Crown of Madness
Detect Thoughts Dust Devil
Earthbind
Gift of Gab
Hold Person
Knock
Levitate
Locate Object
Mind Spike *
Phantasmal Force
Shatter
Suggestion
Tasha’s Mind Whip *
Wardinbg Wind
I could go on, but I can tell from here that you don’t have to worry about ending up with a psychic character who can speak telepathically, and move objects with their mind -- but only to injure people, and do long-range teleports
Yes, piles of arbitrary decisions are very traditional in D&D. They've been moving away from them in favor of actual systems design since 3e, though 5e definitely has some backsliding.
I don't think I agree on the artificer (not deeply familiar with it), and definitely disagree on the warlock. Warlocks' meat is the invocations, pact boons, and patron powers. I think I can make a solid case that they'd be better off with less casting and more other stuff. (And their casting is already not really in the standard spell slot model.)
(I'm not going to make that case here, because it's off topic.)
Here's my secret: I can't describe what I want out of a psychic class because I don't want one.
Well, really, "won't" more than "can't". If I wanted one, I could design one. It's not hard*. I am not, nor are WotC's designers, shackled to the past. If I were tasked with designing such a beast from first principles, there'd be some back and forth to determine the scope of the assignment, then I'd crank out some concepts. I'd have a leg up on WotC's designers because I've already considered and discarded the spell slot model. (On the other hand, they've got hands-on experience with the system, people to bounce ideas off, and way more resources.)
The past tries are useful, mostly as a source of power ideas, but if they all sucked, that's all they're good for.
* The iteration, that's... still not hard, just time consuming. The ability to backtrack on your ideas when they don't work out is kinda hard, but I have practice.
It's that spell slots work (more or less) for a system of unconnected generalist powers with clear power tiering.
Once you introduce at least one of:
The system really starts to show its flaws.
Yes, I suppose you could build a power hierarchy system that you power at varying levels with spell slots, but then you have to answer the question: Why?
3rd's approach to "actual systems" was god damn atrocious and I am ecstatic that the jokers who came up with them once you scratched the shiny veneer off went off to found Pathfinder.
"Backsliding?" 5e has far better system design than 3e ever did. 3e town guards couldn't even keep watch. Casters got free spells for pumping the stats they were going to pump anyway. Martials couldn't move and full attack.
There were tons of subsystems in 3e and every single one absolutely sucked compared to spellcasting, even psionics which was the second-best one. Give me a break.
And you still haven't said what benefit discarding it gets you, besides "I just want something new." Enjoy your bread submarine.
You know what else was a system of unconnected generalist powers with clear power tiering? Psionics.
The only way to get away from that is to make something so narrow in focus and weak that it won't be on par with spellcasting. Which we got, via Psi Warrior and Soulknife, so that's fine.
Don't forget how the whole damn thing was constructed in such a way where they all but screamed at you "Play wizard or cleric" with how the "actual systems" did almost nothing to curb the rampant power gaming those classes offered up relative to say... the fighter(which seems to have been designed to afford other classes a way to get as many feats as possible so that you met whatever minimum requirement eisted for the prestige class you actually wanted to play..
Shouldn't Marvel comics to publish X-Men because Avengers is enough? Or DC wouldn't need Teen Titans because Justice League is enough.
Aren't there enough PC species? But WotC is publishing more and more.
If WotC doesn't want to publish a psionic mystic it's because sourcerbooks with classes using special game mechanics are more difficult to be sold. Maybe this could change thanks D&D-Beyond and DM-Guild because online-sales saving the printing and sending.
There are hundreds of pokemons, and more ones are created for the last videogames. Hasbro is creating new characters to sell more action figures. Disney is creating new characters for the future movies.
Even Paizo published "Ocult Adventures" with the classes: kineticist, medium, mesmerist, occultist, psychic and spiritualist.
Maybe there is in the next year a new manga where the main characters have got psionic powers, but they aren't wellcome in a fantasy world ruled by the magic, something style X-Men as intruders in Harry Potter saga. Then the psionic powers become popular.
Yeah they did, and you know what those classes were? Spellcasters, who didn't need a pile of brand new powers, feats, magic items, and racial interactions to work. Even Kineticist, the most unique of the bunch, had a bunch of
invocationstalents that simply replicated spells.Paizo gave their "psychic spells" components (Thought instead of Verbal, and Emotion instead of Somatic) that managed to feel psionic while still allowing for the kinds of interactions and counterplay that spell components do. And they made sure that all spells are noticeable in some way, even without having hand movements or chanting, preventing a lone psychic from wreaking havoc in any unprepared nation. It was honestly brilliant, and furthermore it's getting more ongoing support than psionics ever did. If WotC decided to do psionics as psychic spellcasting I'd be all for it.
I could perfectly well do everything you describe with spell slots. To the degree spell slots have a value, it's in the fact that they compel use of intermediate power levels -- on a spell point system you're almost always either casting at max power or very low power, because if it's worth spending on, it's worth spending a lot on.
This just in... Star Trek is magic.
Here in the real world, the speed of sound was once considered an unsurpassable flight barrier, too.
"Known physics" is the better term. My apologies for shortening it. In a world where magic works, there are clearly different laws of physics per the definition. In a setting where extra planar beings are normally considered magical, yet are clearly natural to their home planes, what constitutes "natural" and "the laws of physics" will be different than those in the reality we live in and consider our real lives. Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic based on our current views on what is possible.
Arthur C. Clarke's law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
The true question is if there is a enough number of players willing to spend money for a sourcebook of psionic powers, or digital content in D&D Beyond.
What if any players suggest to add any ideas by 3PPs? For example a discipline about spirits and souls. Or a class like warlock, with a different pool of power points but the recovering is faster.
I love the concept of the psionic ardent like a frienemy of the clerics. "We don't hate you but either you to be wellcome here".
* The monsters with anti-magic effects, for example the beholders, could need a different XPs value if some PC is a psionic manifester.
And would those people be okay paying for psychic spellcasting as opposed to some brand new system that would take a lot more work and end up undersupported going forward. I think most players would be fine with psychic/psionic spells.
Given that the 30 races that were listed in Tome were rendered so bland and generic that their descriptions were pretty much freely interchangable I'd really rather they didn't add more.
They did publish a psionic class. It went over like a lead baloon because it was a confusing mess.
They aren't really, they're mostly just recycling the same characters and tropes over and over. That they're giving barbie a new hat doesn't change this.
Maybe someone will make a manga/anime about a really powerful guy who keeps insisting that he's psychic but is actually magic which people keep pointing out to him over and over again... and it becomes really popular so people stop trying to deliniate this.
Did anything happen between 3rd edition and 5th edition?
I admit that I never got deep into 3.
But they very clearly actually designed it, which was miles ahead of what had come before. I doesn't have to be great. It doesn't even have to be good. It certainly doesn't have to be to your taste. All it needs is a more-or-less coherent rules model.
And, before you say it, yes "use spell slots for all powers" would be a coherent rules model. And 5e doesn't do that. It's never done that. It uses it for all casters, which works, until you have a caster archetype that doesn't fit the mold. They've not yet made the jump from "spells and powers" to "just powers", but it's an obvious step.
I literally said it (again) in the post you're responding to.
You disagreeing with the argument does not make it not exist.
And how did that work out? I understand it didn't go well, so perhaps a different approach might fare better.
I realize that thinking about systems abstractions is a specialized skill, but can you really not imagine the existence of another functional system beyond the ones that you have? It doesn't have to be one you'd want to play, but just consider the vague possibility that the design space may not be played out.
And I can write security-critical internet code in C. Doesn't make it a good idea.
Now, admittedly, trying to build a different power system out of spell slots is not anything like that bad, but you're still working against what it's good at, and you're going to end up tacking additional mechanics on if you don't want to end up with "yet another wizard".
They only do that in multiple-encounter-day games. in short-day games, you just gun with the big guns.
In those games, any spell-pointesque player won't just blow out their charge ASAP because they're then out of juice. They have strong encouragement to try for the minimum level of power required.
So why are you complaining about 5e?
I wish people in this dialogue would stop staring opinions as facts, stop making declarations, and start providing evidence and reasoning.
Somebody please tell me with evidence and reasoning _why_. Psi points are a better choice for Psions than spell levels.
There is magic that does things normally associated with psychics. The concept that there could be a story or even a campaign where the main character turns out to be something other than what they believed themselves to be is not a new plot development concept.
That does not make it the plot development (or mechanic) that people who want a psychic/Psion class are looking for.
That it is a difficult and possibly impossible dream to come up with a class that fits the criteria but is nevertheless balanced with what already exists is a legitimate argument. Tempering expectations does not need to outright invalidate the desires of those seeking such a character class.
And not sure what about existing races is considered interchangeable, other than that they are sentient races and disengaging race and culture from each other does not change the physiological differences, even if going with the Tashas stat bonus model.
My understanding is that the biggest issue with Aberrant Mind as the Psion class is not merely that it has spell slots, but that the spells cast (including those with subtle magic or with psionic magic, actually) are still magic, with respect to interacting with anti-magic effects and to the extent they are castable conventionally without metamagic, are cast conventionally, with the same verbal, somatic and/or material components as when cast by any other sorcerer or for that matter any other class which can cast them.
That said, something other than spell slots would be preferrable just to differentiate the class better as 'something different.' But it would still have to be non-magical in nature to be properly psi (or at least a completely different type of magic that does not count as 'magic' for spells that target/interact with magic.
You're asking for an opinion there. There's no one true way of game design. Outside of relatively uninteresting questions like "this die mechanic has this result curve", it's all, ultimately, opinion. It's often opinion backed with "these other opinions with occasional facts support my conclusion", but, in the end, it's always "This is what I want out of a game."
That said:
The D&D spell system is made for generalist casters, characters who can throw lightning, and summon a demon, and punch people with a big glowy hand, and, and, and.
If you just made a list of "these are the psychic spells, and the psychic caster can choose from them", you tend to end up with a psychic character who can speak telepathically, and move objects with their mind -- but only to injure people, and do long-range teleports -- but not short, and see the future a little, etc.
This fails to match the fiction that it's attempting to evoke.
And yes, you can choose coherent powers. Maybe. If there's enough of them.
It's lot like trying to make a fire mage. You end up with all the interesting fire spells, and then more attack spells than you actually need, because that's all there is. Lots of the generally useful spells are outside your scope. You can either take them and compromise your concept, deliberately make your character weaker, or do unsatisfying rechroming. ("I counter your spell... WITH FIRE! No, no... it doesn't do any damage or anything. It's just a counterspell.") If you could choose to only pick fire powers, and actually get something for it, likely access to better fire spells that only fire mages have, you'd be all over that. But that ain't how it works.
And, once you've abandoned the standard spell system anyway, you need some kind of way to manage your resources.
No, the D&D classes are made for that. That's essentially unrelated to spell slots, you'd see the same effect on a spell point system. The main thing it does is encourage you to change which your primary spells are as you level up, which could be fixed by spells with better scaling on upcasting.
I believe I've commented that psi is just the specialist caster problem before.
The bolded, right here? This is why psionics is never going to be a thing wholly diverged from magic; the rest of the system simply isn't built with a treehouse magic system in mind and as such would either require a massive overhaul of the monster compendium and/or class options to allow for counter-play (which would piss off psi enthusiasts) or just leave them with an absurd exploit (Which would piss off everyone else).
Alternately, GM's just keep contriving limitations on Psions in order to bring them down to earth which is basically bullying.
Thank you for the reply.
”The D&D spell system is made for generalist casters,”
What’s your proof of this?
“”
If you just made a list of "these are the psychic spells, and the psychic caster can choose from them", you tend to end up with a psychic character who can speak telepathically, and move objects with their mind -- but only to injure people, and do long-range teleports -- but not short, and see the future a little, etc.
This fails to match the fiction that it's attempting to evoke”
Let’s test that.
Cantrips
Mage Hand
Message
1st Level
Chsrm Person
Distort Value
Distort Value
Feather Fall
Floating Disk
Jump
Magic Missile *
Shirld
Tasha’s Hideous Laughter
Unseen Servant
2nd level
Blindness / Deafness
Borrowed Knowledge
Cloud of Daggers *
Crown of Madness
Detect Thoughts
Dust Devil
Earthbind
Gift of Gab
Hold Person
Knock
Levitate
Locate Object
Mind Spike *
Phantasmal Force
Shatter
Suggestion
Tasha’s Mind Whip *
Wardinbg Wind
I could go on, but I can tell from here that you don’t have to worry about ending up with a psychic character who can speak telepathically, and move objects with their mind -- but only to injure people, and do long-range teleports