If you're literally just using everying that's come before why do you need a whole new powerset for this and not just say... Play an arcane trickster?
Because yeah: Improved mage hand is like 50% of their schtick.
Using some things that came before should be expected. We are talking about a prospective new class for 5e D&D, not some completely different game with no connections at all to 5e.
And there being overlap does not equate to 'using everything.' We have been through this, too.
Canabalizing the unique defining aspect of a subclass that gives you basically everything you are asking for isn't exactly a good argument.
I'm pretty sure at some point in the 30 pages that this topic has been discussed we've been over this.
The over the top rhetoric is still not making any arguments, here. The arcane trickster is still the arcane trickster. Just because the subclass has one subtle ability (which is still magical, by the way) does not mean it is any better than the aberrant mind sorcerer to function as a Psion class.
"it has something, therefore it has everything!" is just a restating of "Well if you are using anything from the existing rules, you already have everything!" argument. Please stop repeating yourself.
Arcane Trickster has:
Free access to low level telekinesis
Access to the enchantment (affecting the thoughts of others) and Illusion (create false sensory input) schools of magic
The rogue's evasion, blind sense, slippery mind, reliable talent and stroke of luck and uncanny dodge are an excellent interpretation of precognition.
Really the more I look at this the more it strikes me as being a solid template for a "psychic" character.
Ironically the only thing preventing you from seeing this is the limitations you have put on your own thinking, to which I would cite the following from the seminal film Star wars: The Empire Strikes Back
If you're literally just using everying that's come before why do you need a whole new powerset for this and not just say... Play an arcane trickster?
Because yeah: Improved mage hand is like 50% of their schtick.
Using some things that came before should be expected. We are talking about a prospective new class for 5e D&D, not some completely different game with no connections at all to 5e.
And there being overlap does not equate to 'using everything.' We have been through this, too.
Canabalizing the unique defining aspect of a subclass that gives you basically everything you are asking for isn't exactly a good argument.
I'm pretty sure at some point in the 30 pages that this topic has been discussed we've been over this.
The over the top rhetoric is still not making any arguments, here. The arcane trickster is still the arcane trickster. Just because the subclass has one subtle ability (which is still magical, by the way) does not mean it is any better than the aberrant mind sorcerer to function as a Psion class.
"it has something, therefore it has everything!" is just a restating of "Well if you are using anything from the existing rules, you already have everything!" argument. Please stop repeating yourself.
Arcane Trickster has:
Free access to low level (magical) telekinesis
Access to the enchantment (affecting the thoughts of others) and Illusion (create false sensory input) schools of magic (which do not come with subtle casting, either).
The rogue's evasion, blind sense, slippery mind, reliable talent and stroke of luck and uncanny dodge are an excellent interpretation of precognition. (So then, all rogues are psions and all those rogue abilities can therefore be shut down by any hypothetical psi-dampening field?)
Really the more I look at this the more it strikes me as being a solid template for a "psychic" character.
The problem being that you are not the one looking for the psychic character and keep substituting your own criteria which, of course, you easily meet.
Flaws in bold, above. Plus, my understanding of the concept is more a pure psion, rather than martial hybrid, although could be a subclass for a martial hybrid variant.
Let me stop you right there. The problem here, is that you're looking for excuses as to why something can't be what you want in order to justify the need for a class that meets whatever standards you think a psion needs to have regardless of whether or not it creates more problems then it solves for the game as a whole... as opposed to looking at what already exists and seeing what it could be with a little creativity and imagination.
If you're literally just using everying that's come before why do you need a whole new powerset for this and not just say... Play an arcane trickster?
Because yeah: Improved mage hand is like 50% of their schtick.
Using some things that came before should be expected. We are talking about a prospective new class for 5e D&D, not some completely different game with no connections at all to 5e.
And there being overlap does not equate to 'using everything.' We have been through this, too.
Canabalizing the unique defining aspect of a subclass that gives you basically everything you are asking for isn't exactly a good argument.
I'm pretty sure at some point in the 30 pages that this topic has been discussed we've been over this.
The over the top rhetoric is still not making any arguments, here. The arcane trickster is still the arcane trickster. Just because the subclass has one subtle ability (which is still magical, by the way) does not mean it is any better than the aberrant mind sorcerer to function as a Psion class.
"it has something, therefore it has everything!" is just a restating of "Well if you are using anything from the existing rules, you already have everything!" argument. Please stop repeating yourself.
Arcane Trickster has:
Free access to low level (magical) telekinesis
Access to the enchantment (affecting the thoughts of others) and Illusion (create false sensory input) schools of magic (which do not come with subtle casting, either).
The rogue's evasion, blind sense, slippery mind, reliable talent and stroke of luck and uncanny dodge are an excellent interpretation of precognition. (So then, all rogues are psions and all those rogue abilities can therefore be shut down by any hypothetical psi-dampening field?)
Really the more I look at this the more it strikes me as being a solid template for a "psychic" character.
The problem being that you are not the one looking for the psychic character and keep substituting your own criteria which, of course, you easily meet.
Flaws in bold, above. Plus, my understanding of the concept is more a pure psion, rather than martial hybrid, although could be a subclass for a martial hybrid variant.
Again, there’s not been a good argument for psionics not being a form of magic, just “I don’t like it.” That’s valid, but not compelling.
If powers are going to come with Subtle, then they should not come at the same level as the same level as the same power which does not - because they are inherently more power (this is a point you keep failing to address).
Rogue powers not being affected by Dispel Magic, etc. Didn’t you say that you wanted psionics to be transparent to magic anyway?
Again, there’s not been a good argument for psionics not being a form of magic, just “I don’t like it.” That’s valid, but not compelling.
If powers are going to come with Subtle, then they should not come at the same level as the same level as the same power which does not - because they are inherently more power (this is a point you keep failing to address).
Rogue powers not being affected by Dispel Magic, etc. Didn’t you say that you wanted psionics to be transparent to magic anyway?
See this is one of those things that makes discussing the topic difficult; Kotath seems to simultaneously want psionics to be magic for all intents and purposes but also operate mechanically differently and not be magic... except for when he concedes that it should.
I'm inclined to believe that he hasn't properly thought through what he's proposing and is engaging in mental gymnastics to try and cobble together a vision as he goes.
Again, there’s not been a good argument for psionics not being a form of magic, just “I don’t like it.” That’s valid, but not compelling.
If powers are going to come with Subtle, then they should not come at the same level as the same level as the same power which does not - because they are inherently more power (this is a point you keep failing to address).
Rogue powers not being affected by Dispel Magic, etc. Didn’t you say that you wanted psionics to be transparent to magic anyway?
It does not have to compel you or anyone else. Any such book would be like Eberron or Spelljammer or even Tashas' or Xanathars,' completely optional content in whole or in part.
I have repeatedly agreed that balancing such a class would be 'difficult to impossible,' so consider that acknowledged. Again.
Transparent to anti-magic is not the same as transparent to magic, either, although magical fire being immune to psi pyrokinesis would be a potential balancing limitation. An arcane trickster's spells (incl their mage hand) though are magical and subject to anti-magic.
I'm sorry Kotath, but what you're proposing is simply unworkable.
Like... the best interpretation of what you've suggested is a system wherein players have access to what is for all intents and purposes magic that isn't actually beholden to any of the underlying limitations of magic and as such I once again point out the only two reasonable options at this juncture:
Work with the extent classes and systems within the frameswork of the game
Seek another system that offers you a better implementation of "psionics".
I'm sorry Kotath, but what you're proposing is simply unworkable.
Like... the best interpretation of what you've suggested is a system wherein players have access to what is for all intents and purposes magic that isn't actually beholden to any of the underlying limitations of magic and as such I once again point out the only two reasonable options at this juncture:
Work with the extent classes and systems within the frameswork of the game
Seek another system that offers you a better implementation of "psionics".
Sounds like we'll just have to agree to disagree here. No such class or book has to compel you, either.
“It does not have to compel you or anyone else. Any such book would be like Eberron or Spelljammer or even Tashas' or Xanathars,' completely optional content in whole or in part.”
In that case then, I’d be surprised if you couldn’t find third party content of a range of different psion mechanics.
“Transparent to anti-magic is not the same as transparent to magic, either, although magical fire being immune to psi pyrokinesis would be a potential balancing limitation. An arcane trickster's spells (incl their mage hand) though are magical and subject to anti-magic. ”
I confess I am befuddled about what you mean by “transparent to magic” since anti-magic is a form of magic in my view.
“It does not have to compel you or anyone else. Any such book would be like Eberron or Spelljammer or even Tashas' or Xanathars,' completely optional content in whole or in part.”
In that case then, I’d be surprised if you couldn’t find third party content of a range of different psion mechanics.
“Transparent to anti-magic is not the same as transparent to magic, either, although magical fire being immune to psi pyrokinesis would be a potential balancing limitation. An arcane trickster's spells (incl their mage hand) though are magical and subject to anti-magic. ”
I confess I am befuddled about what you mean by “transparent to magic” since anti-magic is a form of magic in my view.
I am also confused by him since he's stated that he wants psionics to be seperate from magic except for how it mechanically interacts with the game which... what?
“It does not have to compel you or anyone else. Any such book would be like Eberron or Spelljammer or even Tashas' or Xanathars,' completely optional content in whole or in part.”
In that case then, I’d be surprised if you couldn’t find third party content of a range of different psion mechanics.
“Transparent to anti-magic is not the same as transparent to magic, either, although magical fire being immune to psi pyrokinesis would be a potential balancing limitation. An arcane trickster's spells (incl their mage hand) though are magical and subject to anti-magic. ”
I confess I am befuddled about what you mean by “transparent to magic” since anti-magic is a form of magic in my view.
"Difficult to impossible to balance" is likely why there is no third party version.
"Transparent to Magic" is a term you seem to have originally attributed to Yuriel. My take on that concept starts with Psi not being Magic. Since psi is not magic, barriers to magic do not block psi. However barriers to physical do block psi, so physical barriers created by magic could block psi. This dovetails with the "Magic does what it says it does" concept.
And these are just basic ideas. You two, especially Ashla, seem to be taking an "If you don't have all the answers, go away or settle for what already exists" approach.
This is a forum. For discussion. It is not a trade show and even if someone comes up with a completely finished, completely brilliant first draft of an entire Psi based book, neither of you are likely to make or break any market for it. Nor would presenting any such thing here in full detail publicly be particularly wise sales and distribution strategy.
And it is that difficult to come up with something that covers psi instead?
Yes, it's that difficult. No-one is going back, searching through every book, and adding errata for all of them. Particularly since it's entirely pointless because it will just be things like "Beholder: antimagic cone also blocks psionics".
If you really want to have psi be different, just say "Psi is not arcane magic". That will cover the cases it's actually useful to distinguish.
And it is that difficult to come up with something that covers psi instead?
Yes, it's that difficult. No-one is going back, searching through every book, and adding errata for all of them. Particularly since it's entirely pointless because it will just be things like "Beholder: antimagic cone also blocks psionics".
If you really want to have psi be different, just say "Psi is not arcane magic". That will cover the cases it's actually useful to distinguish.
Outside of RP/lore how often would that actually be?
And it is that difficult to come up with something that covers psi instead?
Yes, it's that difficult. No-one is going back, searching through every book, and adding errata for all of them. Particularly since it's entirely pointless because it will just be things like "Beholder: antimagic cone also blocks psionics".
If you really want to have psi be different, just say "Psi is not arcane magic". That will cover the cases it's actually useful to distinguish.
Outside of RP/lore how often would that actually be?
It's mostly for plot device issues such as "the holy city of blah persecutes wizards".
So, I'm going to ask a question that the other enthusiasts have danced around and is critical to the discussion at hand Lia_black: with your proposed class, is psionics magic?
Was thinking about this over breakfast and this is as far I have gotten with my thoughts on a Psion Class using existing mechanics that are not just using spells or magic. Kineticist would be focused on defensive shields, pushing and shoving, and the like. Telepath subclass would focus on subterfuge, Metabolist would be centered around healing and buffs, and Precognizant would be a Melee focused subclass that gains advantages due to seeing things before they happen.
All very rough ideas that are likely not at all balanced, but it is just an idea. I have never tried to make a class before so I probably missed a lot as well.
Class Features
As a Psion, you have the following class features.
Hit Points
Hit Dice: 1d8 per psion level Hit Points at 1st Level: 8 + your Constitution modifier Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d8 (or 5) + your Constitution modifier per psion level after 1st
Proficiencies
Armor: Light armor Weapons: Simple weapons Saving Throws: Constitution, Intelligence Skills: Choose Two from Deception, Insight, Investigation, Perception, and Persuasion
Psionic Power (1st level Psion Feature)
You harbor a wellspring of psionic energy within yourself. This energy is represented by your Psionic Energy dice, which are each a d6. You have a number of these dice equal to twice your proficiency bonus, and they fuel various psionic powers you have, which are detailed below.
Some of your powers expend the Psionic Energy die they use, as specified in a power’s description, and you can’t use a power if it requires you to use a die when your dice are all expended. You regain all your expended Psionic Energy dice when you finish a long rest. In addition, as a bonus action, you can regain one expended Psionic Energy die, but you can’t do so again until you finish a short or long rest.
When you reach certain levels in this class, the size of your Psionic Energy dice increases: at 5th level (d8), 11th level (d10), and 17th level (d12). The powers below use your Psionic Energy dice.
Protective Field. When you or another creature you can see within 30 feet of you takes damage, you can use your reaction to expend one Psionic Energy die, roll the die, and reduce the damage taken by the number rolled plus your Intelligence modifier (minimum reduction of 1), as you create a momentary shield of telekinetic force.
Psi-Bolstered Knack. When your nonpsionic training fails you, your psionic power can help: if you fail an ability check using a skill or tool with which you have proficiency, you can roll one Psionic Energy die and add the number rolled to the check, potentially turning failure into success. You expend the die only if the roll succeeds.
Psionic Attack (1st Level Psion Feature)
A halo of scintillating colors surrounds your head as you focus your will into attacks against creatures and objects. Whenever you take the Attack action, you can manifest a bolt of psionic energy that counts as a simple ranged weapon that uses intelligence in place of Dexterity for the attack roll. It has a normal range of 30 feet and no long range, and on a hit, it deals psychic or force damage (your choice) equal to one roll of your Psionic Power Die plus your intelligence modifier.
Telepathic Speech (2nd-level Psion feature)
You can form a telepathic connection between your mind and the mind of another. As a bonus action, choose a number of friendly creatures you can see within 30 feet of you equal to your Intelligence modifier. You and the chosen creatures can speak telepathically with each other while you are within a number of miles of each other equal to your Psion level. To understand each other, you each must speak mentally in a language the other knows.
The telepathic connection lasts for a number of minutes equal to twice your Psion level. It ends early if you are incapacitated or die or if you use this ability to form a connection with a different creature.
Mind Over Matter (2nd Level Psion Feature)
You can interact with the physical world with the strength of your mind instead of your body. You may use your intelligence instead of strength for anything you would normally make a use Strength for, except attack and damage rolls.
Psionic Discipline (3th Level Psion Feature)
At 3rd level, you choose a Psionic Discipline to focus your abilities around such as Kineticist, Metabolist, Precognizant, or Telepath as detailed at the end of the class description, or one from another source. Your archetype choice grants you features at 3rd level and then again at 9th, 13th, and 17th level.
When you reach 4th level, and again at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.
Using the optional feats rule, you can forgo taking this feature to take a feat of your choice instead.
Extra Attack (5th Level Psion Ability)
Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
Mental Resilience (8th Level Psion Feature)
Starting at 8th level, you have strengthened your mental defenses granting you resistance to Psychic Damage.
Improved Protective Field (10th Level Psion Feature)
Your ability to defend yourself and others increases. You may now expend any number of your Psionic Energy Dice when you use your Protective Field Ability.
Psionic Burst (14th Level Psion Feature)
Once a Psion reaches 14th level, they can use an action to release a colorful burst of Psionic Energy in a 60 foot cone. All creatures within the area of effect must make an intelligence saving throw or take force or psychic damage equal to the roll of 8 Psionic Energy Dice (your choice but must be the same for all creatures affected by the attack.) or half as much damage on a successful save.
The Psion can use this ability a number of times per long rest equal to their intelligence modifier.
In the spirit of brainstorming, I will focus on constructive comments. The main question I have is how does this compare to the Battle Master? Specifically, how do those d6s compare to the BM’s superiority dice?
Was thinking about this over breakfast and this is as far I have gotten with my thoughts on a Psion Class using existing mechanics that are not just using spells or magic. Kineticist would be focused on defensive shields, pushing and shoving, and the like. Telepath subclass would focus on subterfuge, Metabolist would be centered around healing and buffs, and Precognizant would be a Melee focused subclass that gains advantages due to seeing things before they happen.
All very rough ideas that are likely not at all balanced, but it is just an idea. I have never tried to make a class before so I probably missed a lot as well.
Class Features
As a Psion, you have the following class features.
Hit Points
Hit Dice: 1d8 per psion level Hit Points at 1st Level: 8 + your Constitution modifier Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d8 (or 5) + your Constitution modifier per psion level after 1st
Proficiencies
Armor: Light armor Weapons: Simple weapons Saving Throws: Constitution, Intelligence Skills: Choose Two from Deception, Insight, Investigation, Perception, and Persuasion
Psionic Power (1st level Psion Feature)
You harbor a wellspring of psionic energy within yourself. This energy is represented by your Psionic Energy dice, which are each a d6. You have a number of these dice equal to twice your proficiency bonus, and they fuel various psionic powers you have, which are detailed below.
Some of your powers expend the Psionic Energy die they use, as specified in a power’s description, and you can’t use a power if it requires you to use a die when your dice are all expended. You regain all your expended Psionic Energy dice when you finish a long rest. In addition, as a bonus action, you can regain one expended Psionic Energy die, but you can’t do so again until you finish a short or long rest.
When you reach certain levels in this class, the size of your Psionic Energy dice increases: at 5th level (d8), 11th level (d10), and 17th level (d12). The powers below use your Psionic Energy dice.
Protective Field. When you or another creature you can see within 30 feet of you takes damage, you can use your reaction to expend one Psionic Energy die, roll the die, and reduce the damage taken by the number rolled plus your Intelligence modifier (minimum reduction of 1), as you create a momentary shield of telekinetic force.
Psi-Bolstered Knack. When your nonpsionic training fails you, your psionic power can help: if you fail an ability check using a skill or tool with which you have proficiency, you can roll one Psionic Energy die and add the number rolled to the check, potentially turning failure into success. You expend the die only if the roll succeeds.
Psionic Attack (1st Level Psion Feature)
A halo of scintillating colors surrounds your head as you focus your will into attacks against creatures and objects. Whenever you take the Attack action, you can manifest a bolt of psionic energy that counts as a simple ranged weapon that uses intelligence in place of Dexterity for the attack roll. It has a normal range of 30 feet and no long range, and on a hit, it deals psychic or force damage (your choice) equal to one roll of your Psionic Power Die plus your intelligence modifier.
Telepathic Speech (2nd-level Psion feature)
You can form a telepathic connection between your mind and the mind of another. As a bonus action, choose a number of friendly creatures you can see within 30 feet of you equal to your Intelligence modifier. You and the chosen creatures can speak telepathically with each other while you are within a number of miles of each other equal to your Psion level. To understand each other, you each must speak mentally in a language the other knows.
The telepathic connection lasts for a number of minutes equal to twice your Psion level. It ends early if you are incapacitated or die or if you use this ability to form a connection with a different creature.
Mind Over Matter (2nd Level Psion Feature)
You can interact with the physical world with the strength of your mind instead of your body. You may use your intelligence instead of strength for anything you would normally make a use Strength for, except attack and damage rolls.
Psionic Discipline (3th Level Psion Feature)
At 3rd level, you choose a Psionic Discipline to focus your abilities around such as Kineticist, Metabolist, Precognizant, or Telepath as detailed at the end of the class description, or one from another source. Your archetype choice grants you features at 3rd level and then again at 9th, 13th, and 17th level.
When you reach 4th level, and again at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.
Using the optional feats rule, you can forgo taking this feature to take a feat of your choice instead.
Extra Attack (5th Level Psion Ability)
Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
Mental Resilience (8th Level Psion Feature)
Starting at 8th level, you have strengthened your mental defenses granting you resistance to Psychic Damage.
Improved Protective Field (10th Level Psion Feature)
Your ability to defend yourself and others increases. You may now expend any number of your Psionic Energy Dice when you use your Protective Field Ability.
Psionic Burst (14th Level Psion Feature)
Once a Psion reaches 14th level, they can use an action to release a colorful burst of Psionic Energy in a 60 foot cone. All creatures within the area of effect must make an intelligence saving throw or take force or psychic damage equal to the roll of 8 Psionic Energy Dice (your choice but must be the same for all creatures affected by the attack.) or half as much damage on a successful save.
The Psion can use this ability a number of times per long rest equal to their intelligence modifier.
In the spirit of brainstorming, I will focus on constructive comments. The main question I have is how does this compare to the Battle Master? Specifically, how do those d6s compare to the BM’s superiority dice?
I was curious so I had chatGPTt4o give me its suggestions for balancing this class against the Battle Master. This is what it said.
To balance the Psion class in comparison to the Battle Master fighter from Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition, several factors must be taken into consideration: hit points, proficiencies, abilities, and the overall power curve at various levels. Here is a detailed analysis:
Hit Points and Proficiencies
Battle Master:
Hit Dice: 1d10 per level
Armor: All armor, shields
Weapons: Simple and martial weapons
Saving Throws: Strength, Constitution
Skills: Choose two from Acrobatics, Animal Handling, Athletics, History, Insight, Intimidation, Perception, and Survival
Psion:
Hit Dice: 1d8 per level
Armor: Light armor
Weapons: Simple weapons
Saving Throws: Constitution, Intelligence
Skills: Choose two from Deception, Insight, Investigation, Perception, and Persuasion
Analysis:
The Psion has lower hit points compared to the Battle Master, reflecting a more fragile nature.
The Psion has fewer weapon and armor proficiencies, making it less versatile in physical combat. The Psion's saving throws are more geared towards mental resilience (Intelligence) than physical endurance (Strength).
Psionic Power vs. Superiority Dice
Battle Master:
Uses d8 superiority dice (increasing to d10 at 10th level and d12 at 18th level)
Maneuvers provide combat and support abilities
Dice regained on a short or long rest
Number of dice equal to proficiency bonus
Psion:
Uses d6 Psionic Energy dice (increasing to d8 at 5th level, d10 at 11th level, and d12 at 17th level)
Dice fuel various psionic abilities
Number of dice equal to twice the proficiency bonus
Dice regained on a long rest, with one regained on a short rest once per short rest
Analysis:
Psionic Energy dice are more plentiful but start at a lower die size.
Both classes scale the die size similarly.
Psion regains dice less frequently overall but has a slight recovery mechanic with a short rest.
Abilities Comparison
Battle Master Maneuvers:
Include abilities like Precision Attack, Riposte, and Trip Attack, enhancing combat capabilities.
Psion Features:
Protective Field: Reduces damage for self or others.
Psi-Bolstered Knack: Enhances ability checks.
Psionic Attack: Provides a ranged attack option using Intelligence.
Mind Over Matter: Uses Intelligence instead of Strength for certain checks.
Extra Attack: Same as Battle Master at 5th level.
Mental Resilience: Resistance to Psychic Damage at 8th level.
Improved Protective Field: Enhanced defensive capability at 10th level.
Psionic Burst: AoE damage at 14th level.
Analysis:
The Psion's abilities are a mix of utility, defense, and offense, with a heavier focus on mental abilities and resilience.
Battle Master maneuvers are predominantly combat-focused, providing versatility in melee and ranged engagements.
Balancing Considerations
Damage Output:
The Psionic Attack should be balanced to ensure it isn't outperforming typical weapon attacks. Adjusting the damage die or limiting its usage per round could help.
Defensive Abilities:
Protective Field and Improved Protective Field should be scrutinized to ensure they do not overshadow traditional defensive abilities like Shield or Parry.
Utility vs. Combat:
The Psion's abilities like Psi-Bolstered Knack and Telepathic Speech add significant utility. These should be balanced against the Battle Master's combat maneuvers to ensure both classes have their niches without overshadowing each other.
Scaling:
Ensure Psionic Burst and other high-level abilities are balanced in terms of damage and frequency of use. Compare this to the Battle Master’s higher-level maneuvers and abilities.
Suggested Adjustments
Psionic Energy Dice Recovery: Consider allowing a short rest recovery for half of the dice, similar to the Battle Master, to increase the Psion’s sustainability in longer adventuring days.
Psionic Attack: Ensure it does not scale too powerfully with Intelligence. Possibly limit to one attack per turn to prevent it from overshadowing other attack options.
Psionic Burst: Cap the number of uses to once per long rest to prevent excessive burst damage potential, or reduce the number of dice rolled.
Ability Integration: Ensure that abilities like Mind Over Matter are not too broad. Clarify or limit their applicability to avoid overshadowing physical checks and saves entirely.
By fine-tuning these elements, the Psion can be balanced to ensure it remains distinct yet on par with the Battle Master in terms of overall power and versatility.
Let me stop you right there. The problem here, is that you're looking for excuses as to why something can't be what you want in order to justify the need for a class that meets whatever standards you think a psion needs to have regardless of whether or not it creates more problems then it solves for the game as a whole... as opposed to looking at what already exists and seeing what it could be with a little creativity and imagination.
The problem here is that, in your particularly condescending way, you're arguing that "flavor is free".
And it's not.
Flavor without mechanical effect is free.
Your eldritch blast can be a stream of screaming green skulls. Your magic missile can be a bunch of phantasmal kittens. Your fireball can be blue.
Your lightning bolt can't be invisible. Even if you cast it with subtle spell.
My monk can do flying windmill kicks, leg sweeps, tail strikes, and head butts to her heart's content. They're all unarmed attacks. It's all cool.
The person who wants more detailed martial arts rules will not be satisfied with this. They want leg sweeps to cause the prone condition, etc. You cannot tell them to just say it's a leg sweep; they need mechanical support for the fiction they want. A monk subclass that focuses on causing status effects might well be sufficient. (Possibly Open Hand, more likely a homebrew built on that chassis.)
(If that's not sufficient, they probably are out of luck; D&D's combat system is too abstracted to support anything resembling detailed martial arts.)
There is a point at which dissonance between mechanics and fiction causes a breakdown
I had a warlock in one game. I took the power that let me cast levitate at will, and asked the GM if I could simply be hovering slightly above the ground all the time, as one of the many signifiers that this character was becoming increasingly disconnected from anything that could be considered normal.
If the DM had said no, I still could've described the character as hovering all the time, and the fiction would've been fine... until I, say, fell into a pit trap, instead of blithely gliding on, possibly not immediately noticing I'd mislaid the rest of the party.
Would this have been that big a deal? Not really, but it's illustrative of the problem.
When you say "you can have your psi! just play aberrant mind/arcane trickster/every other class that's been bandied about, which I think is all of them", you are setting up significant ludonarrative dissonance right out of the box.
This doesn't matter to you, because you don't want the fiction in the first place.
To somebody who does want the fiction, your supposed solutions range from "awkward at best, requiring significant extra attention to the mechanics and deliberate character weakening" (aberrant mind) to "you're basing this entirely on the invisible mage hand" to "huh?"
Here, I asked chatGPT to compare the class to all subclasses of all classes.
To compare the Psion class against all the subclasses of all classes in Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition and provide suggestions for balance, we need to consider several key aspects: power scaling, utility, defense, offense, and overall versatility. Here’s an in-depth comparison and balance analysis:
General Comparisons
1. Hit Points and Proficiencies
Hit Points: Average (1d8, similar to Rogues, Bards, Clerics)
Armor: Light armor (limits defense compared to Fighters, Paladins)
College of Lore, College of Valor: High versatility in skills and combat.
Suggestions: Ensure Psi-Bolstered Knack does not surpass the Bard's skill versatility.
Cleric:
Life Domain, Light Domain: Powerful healing and support abilities.
Suggestions: Psion should have limited or no healing abilities to maintain Cleric's unique role.
Druid:
Circle of the Moon, Circle of Stars: High versatility with wild shape and star map features.
Suggestions: Ensure the Psion’s features provide utility without overlapping with the Druid's transformative abilities.
Fighter:
Eldritch Knight, Battle Master: High combat versatility and magic.
Suggestions: Keep Psion’s combat abilities in check to not surpass the Fighter's versatility in physical combat.
Monk:
Way of the Open Hand, Way of the Four Elements: High mobility and ki-powered abilities.
Suggestions: Balance Psionic Energy Dice to be similar in usage and recovery to the Monk's Ki points.
Paladin:
Oath of Devotion, Oath of Vengeance: High defense and smiting abilities.
Suggestions: Psion’s offensive abilities should not match the burst damage of Paladin’s smites.
Ranger:
Hunter, Beast Master: High mobility and pet utility.
Suggestions: Ensure Psion’s abilities do not overshadow the Ranger’s unique tracking and combat skills.
Rogue:
Arcane Trickster, Thief: High stealth and skill versatility.
Suggestions: Psi-Bolstered Knack should complement but not exceed the Rogue's expertise.
Sorcerer:
Draconic Bloodline, Wild Magic: High burst damage and magic versatility.
Suggestions: Psion’s damage capabilities should be balanced to not overshadow Sorcerer’s spell damage.
Warlock:
Hexblade, Fiend: High versatility with pact magic and invocations.
Suggestions: Ensure Psion’s offensive capabilities are unique but not more powerful than Warlock’s invocations and Eldritch Blast.
Wizard:
School of Evocation, School of Divination: High spell versatility and utility.
Suggestions: Psion’s abilities should not replicate Wizard’s spellcasting versatility.
Specific Balance Adjustments
Psionic Energy Dice Recovery:
Allow half the dice to be regained on a short rest, similar to Monks.
Psionic Attack:
Limit to one attack per turn or balance damage scaling to prevent overshadowing multi-attacks.
Protective Field:
Cap the number of dice expended per use, even at higher levels.
Psionic Burst:
Limit usage to once per long rest or reduce dice rolled to avoid excessive burst damage.
Mind Over Matter:
Clarify limitations to ensure it doesn’t completely replace Strength checks and saves.
Telepathic Speech:
Limit range and duration to balance with similar abilities and spells.
By making these adjustments, the Psion can be balanced to ensure it remains unique and competitive without overshadowing existing subclasses across all classes in D&D 5e.
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Arcane Trickster has:
Really the more I look at this the more it strikes me as being a solid template for a "psychic" character.
Ironically the only thing preventing you from seeing this is the limitations you have put on your own thinking, to which I would cite the following from the seminal film Star wars: The Empire Strikes Back
The problem being that you are not the one looking for the psychic character and keep substituting your own criteria which, of course, you easily meet.
Flaws in bold, above. Plus, my understanding of the concept is more a pure psion, rather than martial hybrid, although could be a subclass for a martial hybrid variant.
Let me stop you right there. The problem here, is that you're looking for excuses as to why something can't be what you want in order to justify the need for a class that meets whatever standards you think a psion needs to have regardless of whether or not it creates more problems then it solves for the game as a whole... as opposed to looking at what already exists and seeing what it could be with a little creativity and imagination.
Again, there’s not been a good argument for psionics not being a form of magic, just “I don’t like it.” That’s valid, but not compelling.
If powers are going to come with Subtle, then they should not come at the same level as the same level as the same power which does not - because they are inherently more power (this is a point you keep failing to address).
Rogue powers not being affected by Dispel Magic, etc. Didn’t you say that you wanted psionics to be transparent to magic anyway?
See this is one of those things that makes discussing the topic difficult; Kotath seems to simultaneously want psionics to be magic for all intents and purposes but also operate mechanically differently and not be magic... except for when he concedes that it should.
I'm inclined to believe that he hasn't properly thought through what he's proposing and is engaging in mental gymnastics to try and cobble together a vision as he goes.
It does not have to compel you or anyone else. Any such book would be like Eberron or Spelljammer or even Tashas' or Xanathars,' completely optional content in whole or in part.
I have repeatedly agreed that balancing such a class would be 'difficult to impossible,' so consider that acknowledged. Again.
Transparent to anti-magic is not the same as transparent to magic, either, although magical fire being immune to psi pyrokinesis would be a potential balancing limitation. An arcane trickster's spells (incl their mage hand) though are magical and subject to anti-magic.
I'm sorry Kotath, but what you're proposing is simply unworkable.
Like... the best interpretation of what you've suggested is a system wherein players have access to what is for all intents and purposes magic that isn't actually beholden to any of the underlying limitations of magic and as such I once again point out the only two reasonable options at this juncture:
Sounds like we'll just have to agree to disagree here. No such class or book has to compel you, either.
I'm not the one pining for something that doesn't exist and by virtue of the stipulations you've put forward can't.
“It does not have to compel you or anyone else. Any such book would be like Eberron or Spelljammer or even Tashas' or Xanathars,' completely optional content in whole or in part.”
In that case then, I’d be surprised if you couldn’t find third party content of a range of different psion mechanics.
“Transparent to anti-magic is not the same as transparent to magic, either, although magical fire being immune to psi pyrokinesis would be a potential balancing limitation. An arcane trickster's spells (incl their mage hand) though are magical and subject to anti-magic. ”
I confess I am befuddled about what you mean by “transparent to magic” since anti-magic is a form of magic in my view.
I am also confused by him since he's stated that he wants psionics to be seperate from magic except for how it mechanically interacts with the game which... what?
"Difficult to impossible to balance" is likely why there is no third party version.
"Transparent to Magic" is a term you seem to have originally attributed to Yuriel. My take on that concept starts with Psi not being Magic. Since psi is not magic, barriers to magic do not block psi. However barriers to physical do block psi, so physical barriers created by magic could block psi. This dovetails with the "Magic does what it says it does" concept.
And these are just basic ideas. You two, especially Ashla, seem to be taking an "If you don't have all the answers, go away or settle for what already exists" approach.
This is a forum. For discussion. It is not a trade show and even if someone comes up with a completely finished, completely brilliant first draft of an entire Psi based book, neither of you are likely to make or break any market for it. Nor would presenting any such thing here in full detail publicly be particularly wise sales and distribution strategy.
Yes, it's that difficult. No-one is going back, searching through every book, and adding errata for all of them. Particularly since it's entirely pointless because it will just be things like "Beholder: antimagic cone also blocks psionics".
If you really want to have psi be different, just say "Psi is not arcane magic". That will cover the cases it's actually useful to distinguish.
Outside of RP/lore how often would that actually be?
It's mostly for plot device issues such as "the holy city of blah persecutes wizards".
So, I'm going to ask a question that the other enthusiasts have danced around and is critical to the discussion at hand Lia_black: with your proposed class, is psionics magic?
In the spirit of brainstorming, I will focus on constructive comments. The main question I have is how does this compare to the Battle Master? Specifically, how do those d6s compare to the BM’s superiority dice?
I was curious so I had chatGPTt4o give me its suggestions for balancing this class against the Battle Master. This is what it said.
To balance the Psion class in comparison to the Battle Master fighter from Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition, several factors must be taken into consideration: hit points, proficiencies, abilities, and the overall power curve at various levels. Here is a detailed analysis:
Hit Points and Proficiencies
Battle Master:
Psion:
Analysis:
Psionic Power vs. Superiority Dice
Battle Master:
Psion:
Analysis:
Abilities Comparison
Battle Master Maneuvers:
Psion Features:
Analysis:
Balancing Considerations
Suggested Adjustments
By fine-tuning these elements, the Psion can be balanced to ensure it remains distinct yet on par with the Battle Master in terms of overall power and versatility.
The problem here is that, in your particularly condescending way, you're arguing that "flavor is free".
And it's not.
Flavor without mechanical effect is free.
Your eldritch blast can be a stream of screaming green skulls. Your magic missile can be a bunch of phantasmal kittens. Your fireball can be blue.
Your lightning bolt can't be invisible. Even if you cast it with subtle spell.
My monk can do flying windmill kicks, leg sweeps, tail strikes, and head butts to her heart's content. They're all unarmed attacks. It's all cool.
The person who wants more detailed martial arts rules will not be satisfied with this. They want leg sweeps to cause the prone condition, etc. You cannot tell them to just say it's a leg sweep; they need mechanical support for the fiction they want. A monk subclass that focuses on causing status effects might well be sufficient. (Possibly Open Hand, more likely a homebrew built on that chassis.)
(If that's not sufficient, they probably are out of luck; D&D's combat system is too abstracted to support anything resembling detailed martial arts.)
There is a point at which dissonance between mechanics and fiction causes a breakdown
I had a warlock in one game. I took the power that let me cast levitate at will, and asked the GM if I could simply be hovering slightly above the ground all the time, as one of the many signifiers that this character was becoming increasingly disconnected from anything that could be considered normal.
If the DM had said no, I still could've described the character as hovering all the time, and the fiction would've been fine... until I, say, fell into a pit trap, instead of blithely gliding on, possibly not immediately noticing I'd mislaid the rest of the party.
Would this have been that big a deal? Not really, but it's illustrative of the problem.
When you say "you can have your psi! just play aberrant mind/arcane trickster/every other class that's been bandied about, which I think is all of them", you are setting up significant ludonarrative dissonance right out of the box.
This doesn't matter to you, because you don't want the fiction in the first place.
To somebody who does want the fiction, your supposed solutions range from "awkward at best, requiring significant extra attention to the mechanics and deliberate character weakening" (aberrant mind) to "you're basing this entirely on the invisible mage hand" to "huh?"
Here, I asked chatGPT to compare the class to all subclasses of all classes.