And it would be a colossal headache to actually balance,
Yes, of course. You think Artificer was an easy job to balance? Monk? Paladin? Wizard? (Whether or not any of those are balanced is an exercise for the student.)
Balance in D&D (or any RPG) can never be better than extremely vague anyway.
"You have to balance it" is in no way a counterargument to a new class. And, compared to wizard, it's easy, because its power is based on a much more limited set of abilities.
(Also, wizard gets to cheat on the balance question, because when a new feature throws things out of whack, it's the spell that's blamed, not the class.)
and that’s before we address the point that it would be trivial to just make psion only spells. It’s not some innate rule of the game that a Wizard can grab everything- and there are some significant holes in point of fact- it’s a deliberate design choice, and one they could simply choose not to exercise if they wanted to make psionic spells.
Yes, and then you lose all the features you could have by not using the spell-slot system -- powering abilities up, maintenance costs, prerequisites, etc. You're trying to use the generalist caster framework for something else, and you're going to get a wizard with no spell selection.
The spell slot system is not fit for this purpose, and trying to force it will just lead to failed designs and weird hacks built on top to try to make it work.
The psionic-ish spells each do one thing, and there are gaps in the sort of things you ought to be able to do if they didn't think to make a spell. And yes, you can add more spells, but then Fred the Wizard can come along, learn Awesome TK Capstone, and do the thing you've been working toward your whole career, while he can't even pick up a pencil. And he throws Meteor Storms, summons demons, etc. If all psi abilities are spells, they must be balanced on the assumption that wizards will get to use them along with all their other stuff. If they are not spells, they can be more powerful while not upsetting the balance of the game.
It seems fairly clear to me.
Imagine a class. We'll call it Psi. It gets two powers from a list at level one, and another one every two levels or something. It also gets some other abilities. It has a pool of points, dice, or something that lets it power the abilities. How much? Who knows? Who cares?
The meat of the class is those powers. Some of them are free to use. Some always cost. Some cost to juice their effects.
A few examples:
Telepathy: duh
TK: move stuff with your mind, kind of like mage hand. As you level, you can move more stuff, or manage multiple objects. Maybe you can juice it to move extra stuff
TK Strike: basic damage cantrip. Punch people in the face. With Your Brain!!!!
TK push: move people back and forth Probably always costs.
TK armor: requires TK shield. Gives you duration armor class. Probably better than mage armor, or you can juice it.
TK lift: requires TK push. levitation stuff
TK hold: requires level 5 and two TK powers. Stop somebody from moving. Maybe also from acting. dunno
...
Explode: requires level 15, six TK powers, including Crush: Target takes 15d8 force damage, con save for half. If they hit 0 hp, their body explodes, killing them and doing an additional 5d8 force to everyone within ten feet. It's also very gross.
And so on, and so forth. The other types of power get similar trees. Probably there are powers that you can get even if you cross trees. Maybe there are some you have to. Some powers are flexible utility, some are very specific. A lot are combat, because it's still D&D.
There. It's not a wizard. It gets to do cool stuff. It has coherent theme. It's even easier to play than a wizard.
And I'm pretty sure it would fit the bill of the sort of thing Yurei is asking for.
I can do nearly everything you've described here by taking a Sorcerer, picking thematic spells + Telepathic + Telekinetic, and using all my sorcery points to either make my castings Subtle (which removes the "finger-waggling woo-woo" Yurei described) or create additional slots. I don't even have to be an Aberrant Mind; that just makes it easier by giving me a bunch of Subtle spells for free.
Ashla, you have made it perfectly plain that you believe psychic abilities have no place in D&D, and that you believe I've never played a game of D&D before due to not believing that bolting a single random weird gimmick to one side of a core class offers a dramatic and meaningful shift in that class's play flow.
You want to know what I mean when I say *meaningful* changes? Do a ranger subclass that implements the core idea of the Spell-less Ranger - the sub entirely removes spellcasting and replaces it with a powerful Superiority system and additional martial capabilities.
Do a Bladesinger that turns the wizard into a half-caster that can mingle leveled spellcasting and martial swordplay in the same turn, implementing spellblade abilities *properly*.
Do a sorcerer that removes spell slots entirely, instead allowing the sorcerer to make a casting roll to successfully cast their spells - their magic isn't 100% reliable but they can cast without limit.
Things that CHANGE THE RULES, not just bolt a small handful of extra actions onto an otherwise ironclad, utterly rigid and inflexible chassis. THEN subclasses could be used to reduce class bloat the way people keep saying they do. But until subclasses are allowed to do that? They're utterly useless for changing up the game flow and feel of a class.
Not that it matters. I'm never going to get the ideal kineticist build, and frankly that's fine. I'd simply like to be able to do *A* kineticist build that isn't a sad ******* joke without having to homebrew the entire goddamn thing from scratch.
There. It's not a wizard. It gets to do cool stuff. It has coherent theme. It's even easier to play than a wizard.
And I'm pretty sure it would fit the bill of the sort of thing Yurei is asking for.
I can do nearly everything you've described here by taking a Sorcerer, picking thematic spells + Telepathic + Telekinetic, and using all my sorcery points to either make my castings Subtle (which removes the "finger-waggling woo-woo" Yurei described) or create additional slots. I don't even have to be an Aberrant Mind; that just makes it easier by giving me a bunch of Subtle spells for free.
Yes, congratulations. You can use the spell list and two feats to reconstruct the basic abilities for a Psi class I typed out off the top of my head to dispute the argument "what Yurei wants is incomprehensible and mysterious." Only worse and more complicated.
Ashla, you have made it perfectly plain that you believe psychic abilities have no place in D&D, and that you believe I've never played a game of D&D before due to not believing that bolting a single random weird gimmick to one side of a core class offers a dramatic and meaningful shift in that class's play flow.
I've literally pointed out that there is a whole setting that was built for it and let me assure you I really do like it and how Psionics are a part of it.
As to not believing you: you've given me little reason to based on your comments and lack of understanding of how whole swathes of classes work.
You want to know what I mean when I say *meaningful* changes? Do a ranger subclass that implements the core idea of the Spell-less Ranger - the sub entirely removes spellcasting and replaces it with a powerful Superiority system and additional martial capabilities.
Can you clarify what that would mean and how it wouldn't just be a battlemaster archer?
Do a Bladesinger that turns the wizard into a half-caster that can mingle leveled spellcasting and martial swordplay in the same turn, implementing spellblade abilities *properly*.
Why do you need that when there are other half classes that can credibly perform that role (IE valor bard, Hexblade)
Do a sorcerer that removes spell slots entirely, instead allowing the sorcerer to make a casting roll to successfully cast their spells - their magic isn't 100% reliable but they can cast without limit.
This sounds like an utter disaster to try and balance and/or make work in anything approaching a timely fashion.
Things that CHANGE THE RULES, not just bolt a small handful of extra actions onto an otherwise ironclad, utterly rigid and inflexible chassis. THEN subclasses could be used to reduce class bloat the way people keep saying they do. But until subclasses are allowed to do that? They're utterly useless for changing up the game flow and feel of a class.
What you're proposing would make the game an absolute nightmare hellscape of rules inconsistancies that would grind the game to a halt as players and GM's try to parse out how anything actually happens.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: you should be playing literally anything else because you apparently don't like D&D.
Yes, congratulations. You can use the spell list and two feats to reconstruct the basic abilities for a Psi class I typed out off the top of my head to dispute the argument "what Yurei wants is incomprehensible and mysterious." Only worse and more complicated.
I don't find what they want to be incomprehensible, I find the desire for it to be completely divorced from everything we currently have to be incomprehensible.
Also worth noting that the sorcerer-as-kineticist is 100% utterly incapable of manipulating any object or entity weighing in excess of ten pounds until ninth level, when it can suddenly manipulate a thousand pounds. Ten pounds or under, or half a ton by the end of a campaign. No in between.
Yurei, ... Please for the love of anything what the hell do you want?
I want psychic abilities to be entirely divorced from spellcasting.
Ok, time for another string of replies and thoughts.
Thank you for replying. While You say what you want, by bashing on what you don't want, you really don't make a good case for what would make you happy.
But I can see:
You dislike the 2 out of the 4 types of casters in 5e D&D (Wizard, Sorcerer) you haven't mentioned Warlock or Monk casting as pro or con, in fact you've kind of ignored that Monk in 5e is basically the 2nd Ed Psionicist reflavored, and you have made it clear you dislike spell slots so the Mystic Reflavored into the Artificer seems out as well.
Meaning you dislike all the official D&D 5e Psionic classes, and subclasses.
Still no description beyond no spell slots, can do melee and or ranged combat big boom up to five times a day. This doesn't give a clear path btw, just sets a desire off in the distance while saying what you don't want in it.
Paraphrase "The OGL of D&D is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural." time to look into 5e systems, and OGL books that have psionic systems not tied to normal D&D mechanics. There is even a Darksun 5e Community, with a bunch of Homebrew based on AD&D and 3.5 psionics. Also Pathfinder is about to release a 5e version of their setting. (Or at least that's the big rumor)
Also while I enjoy the authors of Dragonlace (their non-D&D fantasy books) I am not really a big fan of the setting, it's a grim dark D&D setting that focuses of Big Battles and Grim Dark fantasy battles. Not my flavor, but I can see why some love it.
Me it's Dark Sun, which is ironic, because nothing is more Grim Dark than Darksun, except maybe Warhammer fantasy... and only by a pinch. Darksun is the main Psionic Setting in D&D, as Magic use in the setting counts as a war crime according to the latest Geneva convention.
Which means the one setting that would have forced WotC to finally release a Psionic Class, is on indefinite hold because Hasbro doesn't want to publish a Mature setting that deals with real problematic issues. Note all the Problematic issues with Dark Sun are the things being done by the Villains who control the world. It is the Players Job to fight that evil, free the people, destroy the Sorcerer Kings and try and restore some balance in the lives of the population.
Please stop trying to force people to play other systems...
This is why joining an active 5e Group with open use of Homebrew classes is such a powerful thing. Because it's not hard to use the tools here in DnDB to homebrew up what you want. ie Recreate some semblance of a AD&D or 3.5 psion class. I personally would use Warlock and build it as a subclass, although Monk and Artificer would work as well. Monk already is based on the AD&D PSP system, and Artificer is very much the cleaned up final version of the Mystic. I know you hate spell slots, but that is the primary tracking tool D&D uses in 5e for any ability that has spell like properties, look at Mind Flayers. Mind Flayers...
The reality is, D&D is not a generic game system, it's a system designed for a rather particular game style. Sure, you can't play a mind flayer in D&D... but that's no different from all the other monsters you can't play; if I were to make a list of "monsters players would like to play but can't without completely breaking the game", my list would probably start with the top hits of dragons, vampires, and were-creatures, migrate through some fiends, fey, and celestials, before finally reaching mind flayers. There's game systems that are designed to do that kind of thing, that work to varying degrees, but it's not realistic to expect D&D to become one of them (they made a stab at it with savage species in 3.5e; it worked poorly and got way less support than psi). If you want psi characters in D&D, there are two realistic options
Accept that you're a spellcaster variant.
Use an alternative system that is objectively inferior to spell slots, because they're not going to build a class that might outperform their core classes.
I do sometimes hate how the forum post editor is. At least it made what I'm addressing bold.
D&D has always been a generic table top role playing game system, with each version becoming more universal with each iteration. 5e is one of the most generic easy to use easy to modify game systems. It's why there are so many people making OGL content. The irony being GRUPs a system which was intended to be universal failed hard at doing just that, and other game systems are too focused on one type of gameplay to ever truly be considered universal.
Also while spell mechanics is different than spell casting, psionics is a bit more complicated than just a spellcaster variant, unless you consider a way of the open hand Monk to be a Spell Caster.
Yureil wants a psion, in D&D, well she* can do that, however WotC has chosen to not release a 5e update to the setting that requires them to make the class she wants, which IMO is a mistake, but it's their choice so it is what it is.
A psionist, mystic, psion, battlemind, and monk, are a few known D&D psionic classes from official lore and gameplay mechanics. And yes Monks are psionic in the lore. they can fulfill a caster role, and Yuriel wants a non-slot magic caster. I would use Pact Magic as the alternative, and then build a subclass that becomes one of the known psionic classes (except monk because everyone ignore monk)
Yes she can play it, but she'll have to make it herself, or find it in partnered content or on the homebrew subclass area. Trust me when I say I've seen a few psionic homebrews here on DnDB that are balanced, and I would allow in my game as DM.
(*That is correct? I saw some comment before but I didn't see your response)
I feel like I've explained what I want a thousand times and people keep demanding I do it again. But fine. Here we go.
A "psi" spellcaster gets to use their "psychic abilities" three or four times a day tops, because spell slots ******* suck. The upshot is that mages are supposed to have a huge diversity of options for those three or four daily casts, so they always have exactly what they need.
I would prefer for a psychokinetic character to have at-will access to their abilities, in exchange for not having the ability to cast Counterspell or Conjure Elemental or Hypnotic Pattern or Stinking Cloud or Animate Dead or Polymorph or Blight or Steel Wind Strike or Aganazzar's Scorcher or Wall of Stone or Globe of Invulnerability or Manual Breathing or Dominate Karen or Bestow Taxes or all the three million and fourteen things every single spellcaster in D&D is required to have ready to go at an instant's notice or wind up on CritCrab's channel being excoriated by the entire Internet.
This does not always mean "permanent Telekinesis from level 1". It does mean doing better than goddamn Mage Hand before ninth level.
Honestly, that would be your personal bias against spell slots, they work and are a useful mechanic. But you are describing Pact Magic... While it may resemble spell slots, it's very different.
Also I would just build what you want out of a Monk, I'd grab the 2nd ed Psionics Book, the 3rd ed Darksun books, and the 4th ed book with Battle mind, and build my homebrew out of Monk. Ki points are just PSPs done better. I would use the described 5e spell for their abilities list, and I would give them a spend Ki to gain a feat until (x short amount of time) ability.
As Ki is a limited daily resource. It works perfectly for your needs as a casting resource. Also because psions have more hit points than a caster, and can do melee or sit back and shoot mind bullets, Monk plays well with this. Additionally I've said this a bunch, and if needed I can show it in the lore. Monk is officially a psionic class, and always has been. Hopefully the 2024 edition (5.5) will improve monks to not feel weak in the mid levels.
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Note I stand in the middle of this issue, always have. As I said Dark Sun is one of my favorite settings, in spite of it's issues. Nothing more heroic than overthrowing dictators and police states.
I feel like I've explained what I want a thousand times and people keep demanding I do it again. But fine. Here we go.
A "psi" spellcaster gets to use their "psychic abilities" three or four times a day tops, because spell slots ******* suck. The upshot is that mages are supposed to have a huge diversity of options for those three or four daily casts, so they always have exactly what they need.
I would prefer for a psychokinetic character to have at-will access to their abilities, in exchange for not having the ability to cast Counterspell or Conjure Elemental or Hypnotic Pattern or Stinking Cloud or Animate Dead or Polymorph or Blight or Steel Wind Strike or Aganazzar's Scorcher or Wall of Stone or Globe of Invulnerability or Manual Breathing or Dominate Karen or Bestow Taxes or all the three million and fourteen things every single spellcaster in D&D is required to have ready to go at an instant's notice or wind up on CritCrab's channel being excoriated by the entire Internet.
This does not always mean "permanent Telekinesis from level 1". It does mean doing better than goddamn Mage Hand before ninth level.
"in exchange for not having the ability to cast .........." So does this mean you want a class that can never duel class into any casting class? What about other classes taking a dip into the psion class. What about using magic items?
Are you born with psionic ability and then learn to use them better or can anyone just learn to tap their own internal psion powers? Everyone has them but some don't use them. Can you develop(learn) new psionic abilities as you level up? Can you max out ALL of those abilities? How many different base abilities are there? Some places say there are only about 6 base abilities but they cover almost everything possible and some claim their are 36 different abilities each very specific.
Also worth noting that the sorcerer-as-kineticist is 100% utterly incapable of manipulating any object or entity weighing in excess of ten pounds until ninth level, when it can suddenly manipulate a thousand pounds. Ten pounds or under, or half a ton by the end of a campaign. No in between.
This is not how psykinetic characters work.
Unseen Servant is 30 pounds, Levitate is 500 lbs, Thunderwave doesn't even have a weight limit... I wouldn't mind buffing Catapult but that's plenty. And you can pick up Floating Disk too.
Also worth noting that the sorcerer-as-kineticist is 100% utterly incapable of manipulating any object or entity weighing in excess of ten pounds until ninth level, when it can suddenly manipulate a thousand pounds. Ten pounds or under, or half a ton by the end of a campaign. No in between.
This is not how psykinetic characters work.
Eh, it actually kind of is how they work in fiction, there are very few intermediate power telekinetic characters, but sure, it's not ideal for games. That doesn't actually require any new mechanics, it's just a few new spells, or a class/subclass feature that upgrades mage hand (the arcane trickster already does that).
you know what... I am half tempted to make Yureil's class in DnDB using Monk as a base. I own the 2nd ed Psionics handbook, all the Darksun books, and have been DMing longer than some here have been alive. I have the skill set needed. Hells in 2012 I even wrote an OGL book with custom classes and everything. Let me just grab my glasses and start a homebrewing a Monk Subclass "Psionicist"
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Writing 1/4 inspiration, 1/4 writing, 5/4's editing. ;p (math nerds your mind now hurts like a writers)
I guess we’re not going to get a straight answer as to why s Sorcerer can’t scratch that itch.
Seems like a waste of time to invest any more energy into this thread when Yurei isn’t going to answer such questions.
The answer was pretty straight forwarded above. The Sorcerer uses magic and a spell system that is not compatible with the sort of psionic character archetype they wish to play. It's like someone asking for a gazelle and being given a deer. It's similar, but not what is being asked for.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
I guess we’re not going to get a straight answer as to why s Sorcerer can’t scratch that itch.
Seems like a waste of time to invest any more energy into this thread when Yurei isn’t going to answer such questions.
The thread is going a million miles an hour and I have to post between calls at work from mobile, when posting on these forums from mobile is absolute torture. No, you're not going to get long intricate rewrites of answers I've already given you.
A sorcerer doesn't properly scratch the itch because its spellcasting is EXTREMELY inflexible, it's tremendously limited, and the spell selection for the class is not conducive to psykinetic characters. Rather than the ability feeling like a fluid, versatile power the character can use to solve problems creatively, the different sorcerer spells feel like bullets you shoot out of a gun labeled "PSYCHIC POWERS" that cannot be used creatively *at all*.
Can you use Catapult to hurl a grappling hook across a chasm or up a steep cliff to secure a line for climbing? Noooooooooooope. "The object takes ten billion damage and disintegrates from existence when the spell is done, Catapult can ONLY be used to throw random junk at bad guys".
Can you use Telekinesis to pull a stalactite down off the roof of a dragon's cave lair to impale the wyrm below as a means of harming the beast? Noooooooooooooooooooope. "Telekinesis can ONLY move single loose Large or smaller objects of one thousand pounds or less or equivalent creatures, and it can ONLY Move them harmlessly thirty feet or less!"
Are you allowed to use Mage Hand to silently slit the throat of a sleeping enemy sentry, using a small razor-sharp blade that requires way less than ten pounds of force to do the job? Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooope. "That's an ATTACK ROLL, and Mage Hand can't be used for attack rolls!"
Fluidly using psykinetic abilities to creatively solve issues and manipulate one's environment is at the heart of what makes them so fun to play. And there is nothing "fluid" - whatsoever - about D&D spellcaster gameplay
. It's like someone asking for a gazelle and being given a deer. It's similar, but not what is being asked for.
I would say, more like, someone asking for a yellow unicorn, while blue, pink, and white unicorns are available, and the community is saying no unicorns.
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Metaphor translation: Yellow being the pre-5e psionic, blue = mystic, pink = monk, white = all the psionic subclasses.
I may have missed a post along the way, but nobody should be asking for a pre-5e Psionic, as mostly none of those designs were any better. And I'm even counting the 4th ed designs, which were the closest this deer ever got to being a gazelle.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
I guess we’re not going to get a straight answer as to why s Sorcerer can’t scratch that itch.
Seems like a waste of time to invest any more energy into this thread when Yurei isn’t going to answer such questions.
I think it would be more accurate to say based on the... manifesto that yurei has put forward that despite their protestations to the contrary they don't actually want to play D&D but rather something fundamentally different that has the name D&D bolted onto it.
Because they seem to despise everything about D&D's class system.
A sorcerer doesn't properly scratch the itch because its spellcasting is EXTREMELY inflexible, it's tremendously limited, and the spell selection for the class is not conducive to psykinetic characters. Rather than the ability feeling like a fluid, versatile power the character can use to solve problems creatively, the different sorcerer spells feel like bullets you shoot out of a gun labeled "PSYCHIC POWERS" that cannot be used creatively *at all*.
Can you use Catapult to hurl a grappling hook across a chasm or up a steep cliff to secure a line for climbing? Noooooooooooope. "The object takes ten billion damage and disintegrates from existence when the spell is done, Catapult can ONLY be used to throw random junk at bad guys".
Can you use Telekinesis to pull a stalactite down off the roof of a dragon's cave lair to impale the wyrm below as a means of harming the beast? Noooooooooooooooooooope. "Telekinesis can ONLY move single loose Large or smaller objects of one thousand pounds or less or equivalent creatures, and it can ONLY Move them harmlessly thirty feet or less!"
Are you allowed to use Mage Hand to silently slit the throat of a sleeping enemy sentry, using a small razor-sharp blade that requires way less than ten pounds of force to do the job? Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooope. "That's an ATTACK ROLL, and Mage Hand can't be used for attack rolls!"
Fluidly using psykinetic abilities to creatively solve issues and manipulate one's environment is at the heart of what makes them so fun to play. And there is nothing "fluid" - whatsoever - about D&D spellcaster gameplay
1) You can absolutely Catapult a grappling hook. It's less than 5lbs, and it won't take any damage from the spell because that's not how grappling hooks work. You don't launch them into the thing you want to grab onto (a ledge, branch, boulder etc), you launch them past the thing and then hook as you pull it back, by which point the spell is over. And even if you do accidentally strike something, it's not going to take a million damage, it's going to take at most 3d8 bludgeoning which is likely to be ineffective against a lump of steel, unless your DM is equally prone to hyperbole.
2) If the stalactite wasn't loose you wouldn't be able to pull it down as a psion either, it would be part of the cave/terrain and you'd need to loosen it first. And if it is loose, TK will work on it just fine.
3) The system doesn't want anyone slitting throats at range, that's why the coup de grace rules require you to be within 5ft.
4) If you can't use sorcerer spells creatively the problem is with your creativity (or your DM), not the class.
A sorcerer doesn't properly scratch the itch because its spellcasting is EXTREMELY inflexible, it's tremendously limited, and the spell selection for the class is not conducive to psykinetic characters. Rather than the ability feeling like a fluid, versatile power the character can use to solve problems creatively, the different sorcerer spells feel like bullets you shoot out of a gun labeled "PSYCHIC POWERS" that cannot be used creatively *at all*.
You have described every power in D&D. Fundamentally what you're looking for is a powers system with power stunting, and while those do exist... they don't exist in D&D.
Could D&D have a power system? Sure. It's just a Very Big Project, and it wouldn't be a 'psi' system, it would be a powers system that happens to work for psi.
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Yes, of course. You think Artificer was an easy job to balance? Monk? Paladin? Wizard? (Whether or not any of those are balanced is an exercise for the student.)
Balance in D&D (or any RPG) can never be better than extremely vague anyway.
"You have to balance it" is in no way a counterargument to a new class. And, compared to wizard, it's easy, because its power is based on a much more limited set of abilities.
(Also, wizard gets to cheat on the balance question, because when a new feature throws things out of whack, it's the spell that's blamed, not the class.)
Yes, and then you lose all the features you could have by not using the spell-slot system -- powering abilities up, maintenance costs, prerequisites, etc. You're trying to use the generalist caster framework for something else, and you're going to get a wizard with no spell selection.
The spell slot system is not fit for this purpose, and trying to force it will just lead to failed designs and weird hacks built on top to try to make it work.
I can do nearly everything you've described here by taking a Sorcerer, picking thematic spells + Telepathic + Telekinetic, and using all my sorcery points to either make my castings Subtle (which removes the "finger-waggling woo-woo" Yurei described) or create additional slots. I don't even have to be an Aberrant Mind; that just makes it easier by giving me a bunch of Subtle spells for free.
Ashla, you have made it perfectly plain that you believe psychic abilities have no place in D&D, and that you believe I've never played a game of D&D before due to not believing that bolting a single random weird gimmick to one side of a core class offers a dramatic and meaningful shift in that class's play flow.
You want to know what I mean when I say *meaningful* changes? Do a ranger subclass that implements the core idea of the Spell-less Ranger - the sub entirely removes spellcasting and replaces it with a powerful Superiority system and additional martial capabilities.
Do a Bladesinger that turns the wizard into a half-caster that can mingle leveled spellcasting and martial swordplay in the same turn, implementing spellblade abilities *properly*.
Do a sorcerer that removes spell slots entirely, instead allowing the sorcerer to make a casting roll to successfully cast their spells - their magic isn't 100% reliable but they can cast without limit.
Things that CHANGE THE RULES, not just bolt a small handful of extra actions onto an otherwise ironclad, utterly rigid and inflexible chassis. THEN subclasses could be used to reduce class bloat the way people keep saying they do. But until subclasses are allowed to do that? They're utterly useless for changing up the game flow and feel of a class.
Not that it matters. I'm never going to get the ideal kineticist build, and frankly that's fine. I'd simply like to be able to do *A* kineticist build that isn't a sad ******* joke without having to homebrew the entire goddamn thing from scratch.
Please do not contact or message me.
I think MCDM's Talent class might be close-ish to what you're looking for?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GN_9EiOGk88
https://shop.mcdmproductions.com/collections/the-talent-and-psionics/products/the-talent
Yes, congratulations. You can use the spell list and two feats to reconstruct the basic abilities for a Psi class I typed out off the top of my head to dispute the argument "what Yurei wants is incomprehensible and mysterious." Only worse and more complicated.
I've literally pointed out that there is a whole setting that was built for it and let me assure you I really do like it and how Psionics are a part of it.
As to not believing you: you've given me little reason to based on your comments and lack of understanding of how whole swathes of classes work.
Can you clarify what that would mean and how it wouldn't just be a battlemaster archer?
Why do you need that when there are other half classes that can credibly perform that role (IE valor bard, Hexblade)
This sounds like an utter disaster to try and balance and/or make work in anything approaching a timely fashion.
What you're proposing would make the game an absolute nightmare hellscape of rules inconsistancies that would grind the game to a halt as players and GM's try to parse out how anything actually happens.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: you should be playing literally anything else because you apparently don't like D&D.
I don't find what they want to be incomprehensible, I find the desire for it to be completely divorced from everything we currently have to be incomprehensible.
Also worth noting that the sorcerer-as-kineticist is 100% utterly incapable of manipulating any object or entity weighing in excess of ten pounds until ninth level, when it can suddenly manipulate a thousand pounds. Ten pounds or under, or half a ton by the end of a campaign. No in between.
This is not how psykinetic characters work.
Please do not contact or message me.
Ok, time for another string of replies and thoughts.
Thank you for replying. While You say what you want, by bashing on what you don't want, you really don't make a good case for what would make you happy.
But I can see:
You dislike the 2 out of the 4 types of casters in 5e D&D (Wizard, Sorcerer) you haven't mentioned Warlock or Monk casting as pro or con, in fact you've kind of ignored that Monk in 5e is basically the 2nd Ed Psionicist reflavored, and you have made it clear you dislike spell slots so the Mystic Reflavored into the Artificer seems out as well.
Meaning you dislike all the official D&D 5e Psionic classes, and subclasses.
Still no description beyond no spell slots, can do melee and or ranged combat big boom up to five times a day. This doesn't give a clear path btw, just sets a desire off in the distance while saying what you don't want in it.
Paraphrase " The OGL of D&D is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural." time to look into 5e systems, and OGL books that have psionic systems not tied to normal D&D mechanics. There is even a Darksun 5e Community, with a bunch of Homebrew based on AD&D and 3.5 psionics. Also Pathfinder is about to release a 5e version of their setting. (Or at least that's the big rumor)
Also while I enjoy the authors of Dragonlace (their non-D&D fantasy books) I am not really a big fan of the setting, it's a grim dark D&D setting that focuses of Big Battles and Grim Dark fantasy battles. Not my flavor, but I can see why some love it.
Me it's Dark Sun, which is ironic, because nothing is more Grim Dark than Darksun, except maybe Warhammer fantasy... and only by a pinch. Darksun is the main Psionic Setting in D&D, as Magic use in the setting counts as a war crime according to the latest Geneva convention.
Which means the one setting that would have forced WotC to finally release a Psionic Class, is on indefinite hold because Hasbro doesn't want to publish a Mature setting that deals with real problematic issues. Note all the Problematic issues with Dark Sun are the things being done by the Villains who control the world. It is the Players Job to fight that evil, free the people, destroy the Sorcerer Kings and try and restore some balance in the lives of the population.
This is why joining an active 5e Group with open use of Homebrew classes is such a powerful thing. Because it's not hard to use the tools here in DnDB to homebrew up what you want. ie Recreate some semblance of a AD&D or 3.5 psion class. I personally would use Warlock and build it as a subclass, although Monk and Artificer would work as well. Monk already is based on the AD&D PSP system, and Artificer is very much the cleaned up final version of the Mystic. I know you hate spell slots, but that is the primary tracking tool D&D uses in 5e for any ability that has spell like properties, look at Mind Flayers. Mind Flayers...
I do sometimes hate how the forum post editor is. At least it made what I'm addressing bold.
D&D has always been a generic table top role playing game system, with each version becoming more universal with each iteration. 5e is one of the most generic easy to use easy to modify game systems. It's why there are so many people making OGL content. The irony being GRUPs a system which was intended to be universal failed hard at doing just that, and other game systems are too focused on one type of gameplay to ever truly be considered universal.
Also while spell mechanics is different than spell casting, psionics is a bit more complicated than just a spellcaster variant, unless you consider a way of the open hand Monk to be a Spell Caster.
Yureil wants a psion, in D&D, well she* can do that, however WotC has chosen to not release a 5e update to the setting that requires them to make the class she wants, which IMO is a mistake, but it's their choice so it is what it is.
A psionist, mystic, psion, battlemind, and monk, are a few known D&D psionic classes from official lore and gameplay mechanics. And yes Monks are psionic in the lore. they can fulfill a caster role, and Yuriel wants a non-slot magic caster. I would use Pact Magic as the alternative, and then build a subclass that becomes one of the known psionic classes (except monk because everyone ignore monk)
Yes she can play it, but she'll have to make it herself, or find it in partnered content or on the homebrew subclass area. Trust me when I say I've seen a few psionic homebrews here on DnDB that are balanced, and I would allow in my game as DM.
(*That is correct? I saw some comment before but I didn't see your response)
Honestly, that would be your personal bias against spell slots, they work and are a useful mechanic. But you are describing Pact Magic... While it may resemble spell slots, it's very different.
Also I would just build what you want out of a Monk, I'd grab the 2nd ed Psionics Book, the 3rd ed Darksun books, and the 4th ed book with Battle mind, and build my homebrew out of Monk. Ki points are just PSPs done better. I would use the described 5e spell for their abilities list, and I would give them a spend Ki to gain a feat until (x short amount of time) ability.
As Ki is a limited daily resource. It works perfectly for your needs as a casting resource. Also because psions have more hit points than a caster, and can do melee or sit back and shoot mind bullets, Monk plays well with this. Additionally I've said this a bunch, and if needed I can show it in the lore. Monk is officially a psionic class, and always has been. Hopefully the 2024 edition (5.5) will improve monks to not feel weak in the mid levels.
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Note I stand in the middle of this issue, always have. As I said Dark Sun is one of my favorite settings, in spite of it's issues. Nothing more heroic than overthrowing dictators and police states.
"in exchange for not having the ability to cast .........."
So does this mean you want a class that can never duel class into any casting class?
What about other classes taking a dip into the psion class.
What about using magic items?
Are you born with psionic ability and then learn to use them better or can anyone just learn to tap their own internal psion powers? Everyone has them but some don't use them.
Can you develop(learn) new psionic abilities as you level up? Can you max out ALL of those abilities?
How many different base abilities are there? Some places say there are only about 6 base abilities but they cover almost everything possible and some claim their are 36 different abilities each very specific.
Unseen Servant is 30 pounds, Levitate is 500 lbs, Thunderwave doesn't even have a weight limit... I wouldn't mind buffing Catapult but that's plenty. And you can pick up Floating Disk too.
Eh, it actually kind of is how they work in fiction, there are very few intermediate power telekinetic characters, but sure, it's not ideal for games. That doesn't actually require any new mechanics, it's just a few new spells, or a class/subclass feature that upgrades mage hand (the arcane trickster already does that).
you know what... I am half tempted to make Yureil's class in DnDB using Monk as a base. I own the 2nd ed Psionics handbook, all the Darksun books, and have been DMing longer than some here have been alive. I have the skill set needed. Hells in 2012 I even wrote an OGL book with custom classes and everything. Let me just grab my glasses and start a homebrewing a Monk Subclass "Psionicist"
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Writing 1/4 inspiration, 1/4 writing, 5/4's editing. ;p (math nerds your mind now hurts like a writers)
The answer was pretty straight forwarded above. The Sorcerer uses magic and a spell system that is not compatible with the sort of psionic character archetype they wish to play. It's like someone asking for a gazelle and being given a deer. It's similar, but not what is being asked for.
The thread is going a million miles an hour and I have to post between calls at work from mobile, when posting on these forums from mobile is absolute torture. No, you're not going to get long intricate rewrites of answers I've already given you.
A sorcerer doesn't properly scratch the itch because its spellcasting is EXTREMELY inflexible, it's tremendously limited, and the spell selection for the class is not conducive to psykinetic characters. Rather than the ability feeling like a fluid, versatile power the character can use to solve problems creatively, the different sorcerer spells feel like bullets you shoot out of a gun labeled "PSYCHIC POWERS" that cannot be used creatively *at all*.
Can you use Catapult to hurl a grappling hook across a chasm or up a steep cliff to secure a line for climbing? Noooooooooooope. "The object takes ten billion damage and disintegrates from existence when the spell is done, Catapult can ONLY be used to throw random junk at bad guys".
Can you use Telekinesis to pull a stalactite down off the roof of a dragon's cave lair to impale the wyrm below as a means of harming the beast? Noooooooooooooooooooope. "Telekinesis can ONLY move single loose Large or smaller objects of one thousand pounds or less or equivalent creatures, and it can ONLY Move them harmlessly thirty feet or less!"
Are you allowed to use Mage Hand to silently slit the throat of a sleeping enemy sentry, using a small razor-sharp blade that requires way less than ten pounds of force to do the job? Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooope. "That's an ATTACK ROLL, and Mage Hand can't be used for attack rolls!"
Fluidly using psykinetic abilities to creatively solve issues and manipulate one's environment is at the heart of what makes them so fun to play. And there is nothing "fluid" - whatsoever - about D&D spellcaster gameplay
Please do not contact or message me.
I would say, more like, someone asking for a yellow unicorn, while blue, pink, and white unicorns are available, and the community is saying no unicorns.
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Metaphor translation: Yellow being the pre-5e psionic, blue = mystic, pink = monk, white = all the psionic subclasses.
I may have missed a post along the way, but nobody should be asking for a pre-5e Psionic, as mostly none of those designs were any better. And I'm even counting the 4th ed designs, which were the closest this deer ever got to being a gazelle.
I think it would be more accurate to say based on the... manifesto that yurei has put forward that despite their protestations to the contrary they don't actually want to play D&D but rather something fundamentally different that has the name D&D bolted onto it.
Because they seem to despise everything about D&D's class system.
1) You can absolutely Catapult a grappling hook. It's less than 5lbs, and it won't take any damage from the spell because that's not how grappling hooks work. You don't launch them into the thing you want to grab onto (a ledge, branch, boulder etc), you launch them past the thing and then hook as you pull it back, by which point the spell is over. And even if you do accidentally strike something, it's not going to take a million damage, it's going to take at most 3d8 bludgeoning which is likely to be ineffective against a lump of steel, unless your DM is equally prone to hyperbole.
2) If the stalactite wasn't loose you wouldn't be able to pull it down as a psion either, it would be part of the cave/terrain and you'd need to loosen it first. And if it is loose, TK will work on it just fine.
3) The system doesn't want anyone slitting throats at range, that's why the coup de grace rules require you to be within 5ft.
4) If you can't use sorcerer spells creatively the problem is with your creativity (or your DM), not the class.
You have described every power in D&D. Fundamentally what you're looking for is a powers system with power stunting, and while those do exist... they don't exist in D&D.
Could D&D have a power system? Sure. It's just a Very Big Project, and it wouldn't be a 'psi' system, it would be a powers system that happens to work for psi.