There’s a really BIG difference between a character not having all the magic items they want up to a certain gold.piece level and not having any magic items at all.
So? You were assuming a high level thief has an [Tooltip Not Found]. Also, most discussion of martials vs casters barely pays attention to magic items, it certainly isn't assuming the wizard has anything they want, though it sometimes assumes the martials have anything they want.
Honestly, I don’t understand your point any longer. It is literally like you are saying gibbberish.
Because you weren't making an assertion about D&D martial characters, you were making an assertion about martial characters in general. The fact that D&D fighters are stuck in the mud looking up at the god wizards isn't a feature of martial characters, it's a feature of D&D.
I didn't think I had to specify that anime martials are fine in an anime RPG (which D&D isn't), but go off. Per DMG 38, the expected flavor of D&D is Heroic Fantasy, not Wuxia.
However, to more directly answer your point: anything that fixes the martial/caster divide will either enormously gimp spellcasters, or it will result in anime-esque martial characters, because there simply aren't any other options, and your response perfectly illustrates my prior point:
The core problem with fixing the martial/caster divide is that lots of people don't want it fixed.
What makes you think I'm trying to "fix" anything? I'm okay with the gap being narrowed, but I'm not against its existence in general. Magic should be capable of more things than not-magic, that's just common sense.
This being a different framing of the martials vs casters debate is problematic, here, since it begs the question: Why would psionics only be available to melees?
There is another problem with this discussion, in that even to the extent that it has devolved into melees vs casters, it seems to be specifically melees vs wizards, with warlocks and sorcerers not even part of the discussion, let alone clerics and druids.
This being a different framing of the martials vs casters debate is problematic, here, since it begs the question: Why would psionics only be available to melees?
I don't think anyone has suggested that it would.
There is another problem with this discussion, in that even to the extent that it has devolved into melees vs casters, it seems to be specifically melees vs wizards, with warlocks and sorcerers not even part of the discussion, let alone clerics and druids.
Wizards are the casteriest of casters; if they're not a problem in the martial-caster divide, nobody is.
Also, this thread has gone completely off the rails; the reality of the martial-caster divide is not actually relevant to the psionics question.
Also, while this segway into thieves and fighters has been ammusing, I'm curious what it has to do with justifying the existance of psionics particularly in light of how some people in the last few days have argued that Psi and magic can't actually interfere with each other and it would thus come down to who won an initiative roll against the other first to see whether the psion got turned into a frog or the mage got yeeted into space.
What has Conan done that you can't currently do with a D&D Barbarian/Fighter/Rogue? Be specific.
And you could even do Robin Hood splitting the arrow; he wasn't actually in combat, so it would work like any other undefined action. The PC states what they want to have happen, and the DM calls for a roll. Whether that roll is a high/critical attack, or a Very Hard Dex/Perception check, or something else entirely is up to them.
Has Conan ever done anything clearly beyond human limits?
Well, yes, but not clearly beyond the limits of a D&D character. However, he also never faced any foes who were particularly powerful in D&D terms. If you want to find martial characters who faced off against foes on the scale of higher tier D&D monsters and defeated them through martial prowess (as opposed to trickery), you're pretty much limited to semi-divine beings.
Well, yes, but not clearly beyond the limits of a D&D character. However, he also never faced any foes who were particularly powerful in D&D terms. If you want to find martial characters who faced off against foes on the scale of higher tier D&D monsters and defeated them through martial prowess, you're pretty much limited to semi-divine beings.
I mean, there is another route - magic items. Bard was just a dude, but the Black Arrow he killed Smaug with would definitely have been a magic item in D&D terms; the same is true of the barrow-blade Merry used to soften up the Witch-King for Eowyn.
I mean, there is another route - magic items. Bard was just a dude, but the Black Arrow he killed Smaug with would definitely have been a magic item in D&D terms;
Nah. Bard is a legit example. Magic items in Tolkien are rare and unusual, of significant craftsmanship. There is absolutely zero indication in the book that that was anything other than his lucky arrow, and dude one-shotted a dragon with it and nothing else but his marksmanship.
For other Tolkien examples, I'd go looking in the Silmarillion, particularly the story of Turin, who was, AFAIR, not of any elven ancestry. (But it's been a long time.) If I were inclined to go looking for other examples, I'd try samurai and martial arts movies.
I mean, there is another route - magic items. Bard was just a dude, but the Black Arrow he killed Smaug with would definitely have been a magic item in D&D terms; the same is true of the barrow-blade Merry used to soften up the Witch-King for Eowyn.
Magic items are only a solution if you have a class feature that automatically grants them to you. Which is not an entirely unreasonable option.
For other Tolkien examples, I'd go looking in the Silmarillion, particularly the story of Turin, who was, AFAIR, not of any elven ancestry. (But it's been a long time.) If I were inclined to go looking for other examples, I'd try samurai and martial arts movies.
Wuxia is basically the same genre conventions as anime, so if you take offense at anime I doubt those examples will help.
Nah. Bard is a legit example. Magic items in Tolkien are rare and unusual, of significant craftsmanship. There is absolutely zero indication in the book that that was anything other than his lucky arrow, and dude one-shotted a dragon with it and nothing else but his marksmanship.
His lucky arrow... that was forged to be unbreakable by Dwarven master smiths and passed down through his family for centuries. It's a magic item.
If this image loads, I imagine it is something a normal person really shouldn't be able to get away without repercussions.
I mean, without any context that could be anything from a 1d6 cantrip to Thulsa Doom's Heightened Chain Lightning. Also, having lots of HP is a pretty ordinary Barbarian thing. Any more info?
Magic items are only a solution if you have a class feature that automatically grants them to you. Which is not an entirely unreasonable option.
The game itself expects PCs to have them eventually - see DMG 37, "Tiers of Play." You can deviate from that expectation if you want, but then you only have yourself to blame when the martials in your campaign underperform.
If this image loads, I imagine it is something a normal person really shouldn't be able to get away without repercussions.
I mean, without any context that could be anything from a 1d6 cantrip to Thulsa Doom's Heightened Chain Lightning. Also, having lots of HP is a pretty ordinary Barbarian thing. Any more info?
Has Conan ever done anything clearly beyond human limits?
And that image of Conan doing a thing is clearly beyond human limits......that's about all I got on a basic search of things I vaguely remember happening. Any more research on my part is going to require that I care enough about the debate to continue it (I really don't) or that I wish to derail the thread about Psionics further (I also don't).
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
Nah. Bard is a legit example. Magic items in Tolkien are rare and unusual, of significant craftsmanship. There is absolutely zero indication in the book that that was anything other than his lucky arrow, and dude one-shotted a dragon with it and nothing else but his marksmanship.
His lucky arrow... that was forged to be unbreakable by Dwarven master smiths and passed down through his family for centuries. It's a magic item.
OK, I'd forgotten that bit. It might be a magic item. He doesn't know, but it could well be.
For other Tolkien examples, I'd go looking in the Silmarillion, particularly the story of Turin, who was, AFAIR, not of any elven ancestry. (But it's been a long time.) If I were inclined to go looking for other examples, I'd try samurai and martial arts movies.
Wuxia is basically the same genre conventions as anime, so if you take offense at anime I doubt those examples will help.
It overlaps, but it's its own thing IMO. I'll leave arguing that sort of detail to serious film scholars, though. Anyway, "anime" isn't a single genre with a single set of genre conventions. It's not all Dragonball Z. Record of Lodoss War is IIRC literally based on a D&D game. There's certainly no shortage where major characters are explicitly normal people. But then, not all martial arts movies are wuxia, either.
So yeah, I don't exclude anime as a class from the discussion. But this isn't likely to be a productive argument, because it's too easy to argue that a character who does exceptional feats is not a normal person because they're doing extraordinary feats, so I foresee it mostly going "Yes they are" "No they aren't".
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Honestly, I don’t understand your point any longer. It is literally like you are saying gibbberish.
What _is_ your point?
I didn't think I had to specify that anime martials are fine in an anime RPG (which D&D isn't), but go off. Per DMG 38, the expected flavor of D&D is Heroic Fantasy, not Wuxia.
What makes you think I'm trying to "fix" anything? I'm okay with the gap being narrowed, but I'm not against its existence in general. Magic should be capable of more things than not-magic, that's just common sense.
This being a different framing of the martials vs casters debate is problematic, here, since it begs the question: Why would psionics only be available to melees?
There is another problem with this discussion, in that even to the extent that it has devolved into melees vs casters, it seems to be specifically melees vs wizards, with warlocks and sorcerers not even part of the discussion, let alone clerics and druids.
I don't think anyone has suggested that it would.
Wizards are the casteriest of casters; if they're not a problem in the martial-caster divide, nobody is.
Also, this thread has gone completely off the rails; the reality of the martial-caster divide is not actually relevant to the psionics question.
Conan the barbarian.
Has Conan ever done anything clearly beyond human limits?
Also, while this segway into thieves and fighters has been ammusing, I'm curious what it has to do with justifying the existance of psionics particularly in light of how some people in the last few days have argued that Psi and magic can't actually interfere with each other and it would thus come down to who won an initiative roll against the other first to see whether the psion got turned into a frog or the mage got yeeted into space.
Governor of California?
Bad acting?
Terminator from the future.
Book Conan, movie Conan, or cartoon Conan?
He did Red Sonja. Thats pretty mythical.
What has Conan done that you can't currently do with a D&D Barbarian/Fighter/Rogue? Be specific.
And you could even do Robin Hood splitting the arrow; he wasn't actually in combat, so it would work like any other undefined action. The PC states what they want to have happen, and the DM calls for a roll. Whether that roll is a high/critical attack, or a Very Hard Dex/Perception check, or something else entirely is up to them.
Multiple instances of borderline superhuman feats of strength, speed and agility throughout the novels/shortstories.
Well, yes, but not clearly beyond the limits of a D&D character. However, he also never faced any foes who were particularly powerful in D&D terms. If you want to find martial characters who faced off against foes on the scale of higher tier D&D monsters and defeated them through martial prowess (as opposed to trickery), you're pretty much limited to semi-divine beings.
Whichever you want. I'm genuinely curious.
So no specifics then?
I mean, there is another route - magic items. Bard was just a dude, but the Black Arrow he killed Smaug with would definitely have been a magic item in D&D terms; the same is true of the barrow-blade Merry used to soften up the Witch-King for Eowyn.
If this image loads, I imagine it is something a normal person really shouldn't be able to get away without repercussions.
Nah. Bard is a legit example. Magic items in Tolkien are rare and unusual, of significant craftsmanship. There is absolutely zero indication in the book that that was anything other than his lucky arrow, and dude one-shotted a dragon with it and nothing else but his marksmanship.
For other Tolkien examples, I'd go looking in the Silmarillion, particularly the story of Turin, who was, AFAIR, not of any elven ancestry. (But it's been a long time.) If I were inclined to go looking for other examples, I'd try samurai and martial arts movies.
Magic items are only a solution if you have a class feature that automatically grants them to you. Which is not an entirely unreasonable option.
Wuxia is basically the same genre conventions as anime, so if you take offense at anime I doubt those examples will help.
His lucky arrow... that was forged to be unbreakable by Dwarven master smiths and passed down through his family for centuries. It's a magic item.
I mean, without any context that could be anything from a 1d6 cantrip to Thulsa Doom's Heightened Chain Lightning. Also, having lots of HP is a pretty ordinary Barbarian thing. Any more info?
The game itself expects PCs to have them eventually - see DMG 37, "Tiers of Play." You can deviate from that expectation if you want, but then you only have yourself to blame when the martials in your campaign underperform.
Well, since I was more answering this:
And that image of Conan doing a thing is clearly beyond human limits......that's about all I got on a basic search of things I vaguely remember happening. Any more research on my part is going to require that I care enough about the debate to continue it (I really don't) or that I wish to derail the thread about Psionics further (I also don't).
OK, I'd forgotten that bit. It might be a magic item. He doesn't know, but it could well be.
It overlaps, but it's its own thing IMO. I'll leave arguing that sort of detail to serious film scholars, though. Anyway, "anime" isn't a single genre with a single set of genre conventions. It's not all Dragonball Z. Record of Lodoss War is IIRC literally based on a D&D game. There's certainly no shortage where major characters are explicitly normal people. But then, not all martial arts movies are wuxia, either.
So yeah, I don't exclude anime as a class from the discussion. But this isn't likely to be a productive argument, because it's too easy to argue that a character who does exceptional feats is not a normal person because they're doing extraordinary feats, so I foresee it mostly going "Yes they are" "No they aren't".