There is a minority of the community that believes that changes to the very basics of the game is "creative thinking" or "fun". I know it is cheating. Try changing the fundamental rules of the vast majority games, and watch what happens. I have nothing more to say on this matter.
And I have nothing more to say either. There was no cheating.
It's just a game. Not worth totally losing it over.
My last table fell apart and ended friendships because one of the people totally lost it, so can confirm: not wort it.
It is real simple: If the DM does not enable cheating, then there is no problem.
You make a fairly compelling argument—it could be unfair to a sorcerer with Subtle Spell to allow other characters to reproduce the effects of the metamagic with a sleight of hand check—and then follow it up with a ridiculous absolute—that it enables cheating when the GM allows such a thing. A GM is the final arbiter of every rule in their game at their table. It is not cheating for them to allow or disallow anything nor is it cheating for a player to use any opportunity they are granted for a skill check.
If I were a sorcerer at such a table, I’d choose metamagics that are not Subtle Spell and be thankful that I can use a sleight of hand for a chance to cast on the sly as well. I might even take Subtle Spell anyway for the assured success and use the sleight of hand for the same no cost chance everyone else has. There is no reason to lose it or accuse anyone of cheating.
Ok, the problem has been sorted out now. I understand all the stuff about subtle spell and crap, but that wasn't in the slightest the main part of the problem.
I believe the rules were made for the players, not the players for the rules.
The rules are there to create a framework to work with other than "I'm completely making this up as I go along", to provoke new and unthought of events (particularly things like crit fails and hits) and to alleviate feelings of spite (your character died because of dice, not because I'm being mean). All of that is to support the storytelling of the party and ultimately, the fun of the game.
If there's any rule that can be bent or broken to improve the fun, it should. The main restraint is that if it can interfere later - for example, allowing a level 1 Wizard to cast Wish 10 tomes a day might wreck your balance. Allowing Sleight if Hand to potentially help mask the somatic component of a spell doesn't seem to fall in that bracket. It may not even contradict lore - are the movements ever actually described? If they're windmill movements then SoH might not cover it, but if they're subtle twitches of figers...
I'd abide with DM discretion on this, so long as it's consistent.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I believe the rules were made for the players, not the players for the rules.
The rules are there to create a framework to work with other than "I'm completely making this up as I go along", to provoke new and unthought of events (particularly things like crit fails and hits) and to alleviate feelings of spite (your character died because of dice, not because I'm being mean). All of that is to support the storytelling of the party and ultimately, the fun of the game.
If there's any rule that can be bent or broken to improve the fun, it should. The main restraint is that if it can interfere later - for example, allowing a level 1 Wizard to cast Wish 10 tomes a day might wreck your balance. Allowing Sleight if Hand to potentially help mask the somatic component of a spell doesn't seem to fall in that bracket. It may not even contradict lore - are the movements ever actually described? If they're windmill movements then SoH might not cover it, but if they're subtle twitches of figers...
I'd abide with DM discretion on this, so long as it's consistent.
Previous editions specified the verbal components had to be said in a clearly audible voice and that somatic components were clearly identifiable as such. 5E doesn't make this explicit.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
There is a minority of the community that believes that changes to the very basics of the game is "creative thinking" or "fun". I know it is cheating. Try changing the fundamental rules of the vast majority games, and watch what happens. I have nothing more to say on this matter.
And I have nothing more to say either. There was no cheating.
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
There is a minority of the community that believes that changes to the very basics of the game is "creative thinking" or "fun". I know it is cheating. Try changing the fundamental rules of the vast majority games, and watch what happens. I have nothing more to say on this matter.
And I have nothing more to say either. There was no cheating.
There was no cheating, Dennis.
Equally simple: if the DM allows it, it's not cheating.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
And I have nothing more to say either. There was no cheating.
You make a fairly compelling argument—it could be unfair to a sorcerer with Subtle Spell to allow other characters to reproduce the effects of the metamagic with a sleight of hand check—and then follow it up with a ridiculous absolute—that it enables cheating when the GM allows such a thing. A GM is the final arbiter of every rule in their game at their table. It is not cheating for them to allow or disallow anything nor is it cheating for a player to use any opportunity they are granted for a skill check.
If I were a sorcerer at such a table, I’d choose metamagics that are not Subtle Spell and be thankful that I can use a sleight of hand for a chance to cast on the sly as well. I might even take Subtle Spell anyway for the assured success and use the sleight of hand for the same no cost chance everyone else has. There is no reason to lose it or accuse anyone of cheating.
Ok, the problem has been sorted out now. I understand all the stuff about subtle spell and crap, but that wasn't in the slightest the main part of the problem.
I believe the rules were made for the players, not the players for the rules.
The rules are there to create a framework to work with other than "I'm completely making this up as I go along", to provoke new and unthought of events (particularly things like crit fails and hits) and to alleviate feelings of spite (your character died because of dice, not because I'm being mean). All of that is to support the storytelling of the party and ultimately, the fun of the game.
If there's any rule that can be bent or broken to improve the fun, it should. The main restraint is that if it can interfere later - for example, allowing a level 1 Wizard to cast Wish 10 tomes a day might wreck your balance. Allowing Sleight if Hand to potentially help mask the somatic component of a spell doesn't seem to fall in that bracket. It may not even contradict lore - are the movements ever actually described? If they're windmill movements then SoH might not cover it, but if they're subtle twitches of figers...
I'd abide with DM discretion on this, so long as it's consistent.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Previous editions specified the verbal components had to be said in a clearly audible voice and that somatic components were clearly identifiable as such. 5E doesn't make this explicit.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
For some context on 'changes to the very basics of the game'... https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/dungeon-masters-only/117913-a-small-way-to-help-mitigate-the-socerer-wizard
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Figures. 🤦♂️