A lot of the basic character archetypes for D&D came from Lord of the Rings. The difference between a Hobbit Burglar and a Halfling Thief is the "lucky" racial ability and the name. Bilbo Baggins wasn't as lucky as all that, nor was Frodo.
I've had the unfortunate experience of having two different Lightfood Halfling Thieves in different games I play in, both of whom benefit multiple times per session from being lucky.
There are almost no spells cast in Lord of the Rings. It was more a case of the entire world having a magic of a sort. Everything had a spirit that could be spoken to. That's how Elven magic worked. The Elves woke up the trees, and taught them to speak. In the scene were Arwin is trying to escape the Ringwraiths, she talks to the river and it's not her that does anything, it's the river that gets annoyed with the intrusion and washes away the all the horses the Ringwraiths had.
Aragon had a very elaborate backstory. His father was one of the few remaining humans with the blood of the Neumanorians. That's one of Tolkien's little linguistic jokes, by the way. If you follow it far enough you find out that the Neumanorians came from Atlantis.
His mother was apparently a plain and ordinary human. She gave him to the Elves to raise and it seems they knew Elrond pretty well. Elrond was a Half-Elf who chose to become a full Elf while his brother chose to be a mortal human.
Aragon had a long career as a warrior. As near as I can figure, he spent a great many years as a Fighter. He showed no signs of a sub-class I can think of other than maybe Champion. He's good with weapons, but not really remarkable with any of them. In later days he took up lurking in the wilderness near small towns and killing the monsters. That's possibly some Ranger training, but he never casts any spells and isn't any better with a bow than anything else he uses. He's a wonderful tracker, he knows a good deal about survival and nature as well as how to handle animals. His senses are not overly keen, but he's reasonably alert, not in the sense of the feat, but he's pretty aware of his surroundings most of the time.
By the start of the movie, he's obviously a Tier 4 character. So is Gandalf, as is Legolas. Most of the rest of the Fellowship is Tier 1. It's debatable if Sam ever got past first level. Gimli ought to have been level 10 or so, but he was used for comic relief and was pretty much inept at everything.
By the end of the story, Aragon might have grabbed a level or so in Paladin, but It's more likely that he will have Paladins in his service swearing the Oath of the Crown.
Wasn't Gimli as comic relief mostly a movie thing? He did also beat Legolas (barely) in their competition at helms deep, so he was clearly holding his own in combat at least.
Sam I'd say probably ought to get some levels imo if he was able to fight off Shelob, even if he didn't finish her off.
Wasn't aragorn really good at tracking/outdoorsey stuff etc? That would suggest at least some ranger to me. I'm a bit confused by the paladin bit.
I suppose he does do the healing thing in return of the king, is that where the paladin bit's coming from? I"m not sure I'd give him paladin levels unless there's more to it than that.
The bolded part can be obtained through background or feat choices no need for a specific class to gain this.
I mean, that cuts both ways
Fair enough... still proves my position though... Not every concept needs or requires Multi-classing in 5e. As I stated earlier outside of two or three very specific mechanically based concepts (and I can only think of one at the moment - Trickster cleric/Echo-knight) most concepts just need the right background or feats to function. Or maybe a short conversation with the DM for them allow change of spell list access for a couple of the more out there ideas. (like an Arcane Trickster with access to the Paladin spell list... actually had a player ask about this the other day) %e is extremely modular enough to allow for small tweaks like that without throwing out the party balance.
Wasn't aragorn really good at tracking/outdoorsey stuff etc? That would suggest at least some ranger to me. I'm a bit confused by the paladin bit.
Aragorn and his forbears did swear to protect the North as Rangers, in penance for failing to protect it as kings.
Again, nothing about that makes it a vow in D&D terms.
I want to be the king" is more of a goal than a vow.
He didn’t want to be king, and he and his forbears forswore the crown they thought they had lost the right to wear.
He kind of changed his mind, but yeah, that's basically his arc.
They were about protecting the people of the North, and were wood-wise, but not so much about protecting the woods themselves.
So very much rangers, then?You might want to brush up on what the PHB says about Rangers. They protect people from the dangers of the wild, not the other way around. Heck, the very first exampl ein the PHB is a ranger fighting orcs. :D
In 5e terms there is nothing Ranger-ey about the Rangers if the North, especially given the setting’s low manna magic. Every magic using character was a supernatural being who had existed for thousands of years by the time of the story.
Except the whole, rugged outdoors people, scouts, defending the outskirts of civilization from the dangers of the wild thing? Perhaps. But if you disqualify Ranger because of the low-magic setting then you'd have to disqualify Paladin for the same reason. In that case Aragorn is a Fighter/Scout. Which also kind of works.
Aragon had a very elaborate backstory. His father was one of the few remaining humans with the blood of the Neumanorians. That's one of Tolkien's little linguistic jokes, by the way. If you follow it far enough you find out that the Neumanorians came from Atlantis.
Númenóreans. Neumanorians are descendants of the great ancestor Alfred E. ;)
He kind of changed his mind, but yeah, that's basically his arc.
Elrond convinced him to accept his destiny. Aragorn was written as a classic, Platonic, philosopher-king. The first requirement of that is no desire to rule, but acceptance of the crown for the good of the polis.
Except the whole, rugged outdoors people, scouts, defending the outskirts of civilization from the dangers of the wild thing?
Except in 5e that isn’t really what Rangers are designed to do. Rangers snd Druids defend the wilderness, not civilization.
Perhaps. But if you disqualify Ranger because of the low-magic setting then you'd have to disqualify Paladin for the same reason. In that case Aragorn is a Fighter/Scout. Which also kind of works.
…and I’m the one who’s been saying he was a fighter.
Again, nothing about that makes it a vow in D&D terms.
Sure it is. What is the “Oath of Devotion” anyway? It can be to a god, a philosophy…. Or to your ancestors who stood the same watch for generations. I don’t think he was a Paladin, but in a more magical setting he could be.
The difference between a Hobbit Burglar and a Halfling Thief is the "lucky" racial ability
Halflings are Lucky -because- of Bilbo and Frodo.
By the start of the movie, he's obviously a Tier 4 character. So is Gandalf, as is Legolas. Most of the rest of the Fellowship is Tier 1.
LotR was a classic example of a multi-level party. The hobbits are definitely level 1 at the start but progress rapidly, you can even see Boromir training them in swordplay in the movie.
In the original versions of D&D races were limited in the advancement in certain classes, and couldn’t take some at all. Halflings could be thieves or fighters, and were limited to 7th level as fighters… And there was no multiclassing. That was largely based on LotR.
It's debatable if Sam ever got past first level. Gimli ought to have been level 10 or so, but he was used for comic relief and was pretty much inept at everything.
Gimli and Boromir are extremely capable “normal” characters, probably level 10-12. Even in the movies, Gimli fights extremely well. Boromir has lead the fight against Saron’s minions from the front his whole life. He’s extremely experienced as a warrior and a leader.
Gandalf, Legolas and Aragorn are all 20+… Aragorn is actually the least capable of the 3.
The advancement of the hobbits can be seen in their ability to travel home on their own without incident, and their ability to lead the Scouring of the Shire and fight the Battle of Bywater. Perry becomes Thegn, Merry becomes Master of Buckland and Frodo serves as Mayor of Michael Delving. By the end of LotR they are around 12th IMO.
Aragon’s mundane healing ability he learned from Elrond, and his magical healing ability with Athelas is a feature of his lineage , not a function of his class.
Looking at the PHB explanation of rangers here on the site ( don't have the physical book with me atm) it mentions them defending the fringes of civilization, NOT defending the wilderness. I"m not sure where that bit's coming from.
Though a ranger might make a living as a hunter, a guide, or a tracker, a ranger’s true calling is to defend the outskirts of civilization from the ravages of monsters and humanoid hordes that press in from the wild.
Warriors of the wilderness, rangers specialize in hunting the monsters that threaten the edges of civilization — humanoid raiders, rampaging beasts and monstrosities, terrible giants, and deadly dragons.
Now if you want to argue that the specifics of ranger don't apply to Aragorn fair, but they very much do defend civilization, not the wilderness, according to the PHB. It's just generally the outskirts of civilization they defend, not big cities typically. I could see an arguement though with his survival skills and experience fighting orcs/goblins to potentially have some ranger, if taking the difference in magical levels between settings into aco****. But I think there's also arguemeents to be made for different takes, obviously Aragorn wasn't written to be a class in a game not written yet. We're just trying to apply them in retrospect and I think fighter and ranger both potentially fit. Ranger more so thematically, fighter literally if we're discounting the magic aspect.
Aragon had a very elaborate backstory. His father was one of the few remaining humans with the blood of the Neumanorians. That's one of Tolkien's little linguistic jokes, by the way. If you follow it far enough you find out that the Neumanorians came from Atlantis.
Númenóreans. Neumanorians are descendants of the great ancestor Alfred E. ;)
While Newmanorians are the ancient foes of the Seinfeldar
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
He kind of changed his mind, but yeah, that's basically his arc.
Elrond convinced him to accept his destiny. Aragorn was written as a classic, Platonic, philosopher-king. The first requirement of that is no desire to rule, but acceptance of the crown for the good of the polis.
Like I said, he changed his mind. still not a paladin, though.
Except the whole, rugged outdoors people, scouts, defending the outskirts of civilization from the dangers of the wild thing?
Except in 5e that isn’t really what Rangers are designed to do. Rangers snd Druids defend the wilderness, not civilization.
Nyr_Ventus has already pointed out that you are wrong, so no need to dwell on that. Rangers and Druids aren't the same.
Perhaps. But if you disqualify Ranger because of the low-magic setting then you'd have to disqualify Paladin for the same reason. In that case Aragorn is a Fighter/Scout. Which also kind of works.
…and I’m the one who’s been saying he was a fighter.
Fighter/Scout is better than paladin. I was replying to the argument about low magic which would disqualify both ranger and paladin.
Again, nothing about that makes it a vow in D&D terms.
Sure it is.
Not really. In that case every soldier, knight and city guard, and probably most of the nobility, would be paladins.
What is the “Oath of Devotion” anyway?
Easily found in the PHB. "The Oath of Devotion binds a paladin to the loftiest ideals of justice, virtue, and order. Sometimes called cavaliers, white knights, or holy warriors, these paladins meet the ideal of the knight in shining armor, acting with honor in pursuit of justice and the greater good. They hold themselves to the highest standards of conduct, and some, for better or worse, hold the rest of the world to the same standards. Many who swear this oath are devoted to gods of law and good and use their gods' tenets as the measure of their devotion. They hold angels – the perfect servants of good – as their ideals, and incorporate images of angelic wings into their helmets or coats of arms."
Nothing really Aragorn-y or Dunedain about that, wouldn't you agree? The Gondorians' fixation with wings comes was related to seabirds (them being of nautical lineage) and not angels.
It can be to a god, a philosophy…. Or to your ancestors who stood the same watch for generations. I don’t think he was a Paladin, but in a more magical setting he could be.
I would agree with you but then we'd both be wrong. Even translated to a magical setting he doesn't really do anything paladin-y, no smites, no finding steeds (through magic) and nothing even similar to a Paladin Oath. His duty to his ancestors is his Bond, not a Paladin Oath.
Aragon had a very elaborate backstory. His father was one of the few remaining humans with the blood of the Neumanorians. That's one of Tolkien's little linguistic jokes, by the way. If you follow it far enough you find out that the Neumanorians came from Atlantis.
Númenóreans. Neumanorians are descendants of the great ancestor Alfred E. ;)
While Newmanorians are the ancient foes of the Seinfeldar
And the Newtonorians grow apples and study the Story of Issac.
While the Neuternorians died out in a single generation.
Aragon had a very elaborate backstory. His father was one of the few remaining humans with the blood of the Neumanorians. That's one of Tolkien's little linguistic jokes, by the way. If you follow it far enough you find out that the Neumanorians came from Atlantis.
Númenóreans. Neumanorians are descendants of the great ancestor Alfred E. ;)
While Newmanorians are the ancient foes of the Seinfeldar
And the Newtonorians grow apples and study the Story of Issac.
While the Neuternorians died out in a single generation.
I kind of love that this thread has turned into half of us arguing like nerds over which class would fit Aragorn best, and the other half is this beautiful chain here.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
A lot of the basic character archetypes for D&D came from Lord of the Rings. The difference between a Hobbit Burglar and a Halfling Thief is the "lucky" racial ability and the name. Bilbo Baggins wasn't as lucky as all that, nor was Frodo.
I've had the unfortunate experience of having two different Lightfood Halfling Thieves in different games I play in, both of whom benefit multiple times per session from being lucky.
There are almost no spells cast in Lord of the Rings. It was more a case of the entire world having a magic of a sort. Everything had a spirit that could be spoken to. That's how Elven magic worked. The Elves woke up the trees, and taught them to speak. In the scene were Arwin is trying to escape the Ringwraiths, she talks to the river and it's not her that does anything, it's the river that gets annoyed with the intrusion and washes away the all the horses the Ringwraiths had.
Aragon had a very elaborate backstory. His father was one of the few remaining humans with the blood of the Neumanorians. That's one of Tolkien's little linguistic jokes, by the way. If you follow it far enough you find out that the Neumanorians came from Atlantis.
His mother was apparently a plain and ordinary human. She gave him to the Elves to raise and it seems they knew Elrond pretty well. Elrond was a Half-Elf who chose to become a full Elf while his brother chose to be a mortal human.
Aragon had a long career as a warrior. As near as I can figure, he spent a great many years as a Fighter. He showed no signs of a sub-class I can think of other than maybe Champion. He's good with weapons, but not really remarkable with any of them. In later days he took up lurking in the wilderness near small towns and killing the monsters. That's possibly some Ranger training, but he never casts any spells and isn't any better with a bow than anything else he uses. He's a wonderful tracker, he knows a good deal about survival and nature as well as how to handle animals. His senses are not overly keen, but he's reasonably alert, not in the sense of the feat, but he's pretty aware of his surroundings most of the time.
By the start of the movie, he's obviously a Tier 4 character. So is Gandalf, as is Legolas. Most of the rest of the Fellowship is Tier 1. It's debatable if Sam ever got past first level. Gimli ought to have been level 10 or so, but he was used for comic relief and was pretty much inept at everything.
By the end of the story, Aragon might have grabbed a level or so in Paladin, but It's more likely that he will have Paladins in his service swearing the Oath of the Crown.
<Insert clever signature here>
Wasn't Gimli as comic relief mostly a movie thing? He did also beat Legolas (barely) in their competition at helms deep, so he was clearly holding his own in combat at least.
Sam I'd say probably ought to get some levels imo if he was able to fight off Shelob, even if he didn't finish her off.
Fair enough... still proves my position though...
Not every concept needs or requires Multi-classing in 5e.
As I stated earlier outside of two or three very specific mechanically based concepts (and I can only think of one at the moment - Trickster cleric/Echo-knight) most concepts just need the right background or feats to function. Or maybe a short conversation with the DM for them allow change of spell list access for a couple of the more out there ideas. (like an Arcane Trickster with access to the Paladin spell list... actually had a player ask about this the other day) %e is extremely modular enough to allow for small tweaks like that without throwing out the party balance.
Again, nothing about that makes it a vow in D&D terms.
He kind of changed his mind, but yeah, that's basically his arc.
So very much rangers, then?You might want to brush up on what the PHB says about Rangers. They protect people from the dangers of the wild, not the other way around. Heck, the very first exampl ein the PHB is a ranger fighting orcs. :D
Except the whole, rugged outdoors people, scouts, defending the outskirts of civilization from the dangers of the wild thing? Perhaps. But if you disqualify Ranger because of the low-magic setting then you'd have to disqualify Paladin for the same reason. In that case Aragorn is a Fighter/Scout. Which also kind of works.
Númenóreans. Neumanorians are descendants of the great ancestor Alfred E. ;)
Elrond convinced him to accept his destiny. Aragorn was written as a classic, Platonic, philosopher-king. The first requirement of that is no desire to rule, but acceptance of the crown for the good of the polis.
Except in 5e that isn’t really what Rangers are designed to do. Rangers snd Druids defend the wilderness, not civilization.
…and I’m the one who’s been saying he was a fighter.
Sure it is. What is the “Oath of Devotion” anyway? It can be to a god, a philosophy…. Or to your ancestors who stood the same watch for generations. I don’t think he was a Paladin, but in a more magical setting he could be.
Halflings are Lucky -because- of Bilbo and Frodo.
LotR was a classic example of a multi-level party. The hobbits are definitely level 1 at the start but progress rapidly, you can even see Boromir training them in swordplay in the movie.
In the original versions of D&D races were limited in the advancement in certain classes, and couldn’t take some at all. Halflings could be thieves or fighters, and were limited to 7th level as fighters… And there was no multiclassing. That was largely based on LotR.
Gimli and Boromir are extremely capable “normal” characters, probably level 10-12. Even in the movies, Gimli fights extremely well. Boromir has lead the fight against Saron’s minions from the front his whole life. He’s extremely experienced as a warrior and a leader.
Gandalf, Legolas and Aragorn are all 20+… Aragorn is actually the least capable of the 3.
The advancement of the hobbits can be seen in their ability to travel home on their own without incident, and their ability to lead the Scouring of the Shire and fight the Battle of Bywater. Perry becomes Thegn, Merry becomes Master of Buckland and Frodo serves as Mayor of Michael Delving. By the end of LotR they are around 12th IMO.
Aragon’s mundane healing ability he learned from Elrond, and his magical healing ability with Athelas is a feature of his lineage , not a function of his class.
Looking at the PHB explanation of rangers here on the site ( don't have the physical book with me atm) it mentions them defending the fringes of civilization, NOT defending the wilderness. I"m not sure where that bit's coming from.
Now if you want to argue that the specifics of ranger don't apply to Aragorn fair, but they very much do defend civilization, not the wilderness, according to the PHB. It's just generally the outskirts of civilization they defend, not big cities typically. I could see an arguement though with his survival skills and experience fighting orcs/goblins to potentially have some ranger, if taking the difference in magical levels between settings into aco****. But I think there's also arguemeents to be made for different takes, obviously Aragorn wasn't written to be a class in a game not written yet. We're just trying to apply them in retrospect and I think fighter and ranger both potentially fit. Ranger more so thematically, fighter literally if we're discounting the magic aspect.
While Newmanorians are the ancient foes of the Seinfeldar
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Like I said, he changed his mind. still not a paladin, though.
Nyr_Ventus has already pointed out that you are wrong, so no need to dwell on that. Rangers and Druids aren't the same.
Fighter/Scout is better than paladin. I was replying to the argument about low magic which would disqualify both ranger and paladin.
Not really. In that case every soldier, knight and city guard, and probably most of the nobility, would be paladins.
Easily found in the PHB.
"The Oath of Devotion binds a paladin to the loftiest ideals of justice, virtue, and order. Sometimes called cavaliers, white knights, or holy warriors, these paladins meet the ideal of the knight in shining armor, acting with honor in pursuit of justice and the greater good. They hold themselves to the highest standards of conduct, and some, for better or worse, hold the rest of the world to the same standards. Many who swear this oath are devoted to gods of law and good and use their gods' tenets as the measure of their devotion. They hold angels – the perfect servants of good – as their ideals, and incorporate images of angelic wings into their helmets or coats of arms."
Nothing really Aragorn-y or Dunedain about that, wouldn't you agree? The Gondorians' fixation with wings comes was related to seabirds (them being of nautical lineage) and not angels.
I would agree with you but then we'd both be wrong. Even translated to a magical setting he doesn't really do anything paladin-y, no smites, no finding steeds (through magic) and nothing even similar to a Paladin Oath. His duty to his ancestors is his Bond, not a Paladin Oath.
While the Neuternorians died out in a single generation.
I kind of love that this thread has turned into half of us arguing like nerds over which class would fit Aragorn best, and the other half is this beautiful chain here.