The game designers built the various classes and subclasses to function totally fine without any magic items.
Well, yes and no. In terms of pure numbers, the game is indeed designed to not require any magic items; however, it also assumes that a player will have access to some form of magical damage in higher tiers, in order to deal with monsters with resistance/immunity to non-magical damage. There's...a number of design decisions that directly contradict one another, which is very frustrating...
I keep on hearing this argument. "Weapon users need magic weapons, because some monsters resist non-magic weapons."
You know what? Some monsters resist spells, too. There's a feature literally named Magic Resistance. Some monsters have legendary resistances, and some have immunity to certain spells, or entire ranges of spell levels, or mechanics that can bounce spells back. Some have damage resistance for common elemental damage types. Some have immunity. Does this mean that casters need items that negate these mechanics? I don't think so. (Though I will acknowledge the ceaseless demand for ways to negate elemental resistances and immunities for one-trick elementalist casters.)
Not every monster is supposed to be handled the same way. If that were the case, why even have multiple kinds of monsters? Why not just increase the numbers on a goblin? A Fighter isn't somehow invalidated by the mere existence of monsters he can't hurt with his weapon, just like a Warlock isn't invalidated by the existence of the Helmed Horror (which has immunity to Eldritch Blast). Sometimes you have to change up your tactics. Sometimes you have to struggle. Sometimes you even have to retreat, or surrender. Sometimes you just have to let the other members of the party cover for you. Big deal.
And anyway, if you really want to bypass these damage resistances, every class has at least one option for you to do it without help from other characters. For Fighter, pick Arcane Archer, Eldritch Knight, or to a lesser extent Psi Warrior. For Rogue, pick Arcane Trickster. For Monk, pick literally any Monk. For Barbarian, pick Beast, Storm Herald, or Zealot, or even Ancestral Guardians if you're playing around level 14.
But that's all setting aside the fact that it's a team game and you have allies for a reason. Magic Weapon, Elemental Weapon, Holy Weapon, Dragon's Breath, Magic Stone, and Flame Arrows all work to address these types of challenges. Artificers can also enchant weapons to become magical for you, and so can Forge Clerics. When was the last time you saw any of these things happen? Do you think that has something to do with the availability of magic items in your games?
In summation: 1. Not being able to deal optimal, or even nonzero, damage to some monsters isn't sufficient to support that you "need" magic weapons. 2. You can get the equivalent of magic weapons without actually obtaining magic weapons. 3. Having a bunch of real magic weapons devalues those features.
I would go as far as to say the game is more fun without easy access to magic weapons. One of my favorite moments was the time we left all our gear at an entrance and had to fight a dragon using just one spear, enchanted with Holy Weapon, that we all had to share.
Tangent: The "equipment creep" of 3.5e is not really a thing in 5e, and I'm so glad. It's so soul-sucking to have to waste your hard earned gold just keeping your numbers high enough to function. My 3.5e Fighter has four different items contributing to his AC (magic armor, amulet of natural armor, gloves of dexterity, ring of protection), and his AC is still garbage because none of those items have a big enough modifier for the level I'm at. It's so dumb.
Amazing. You went and wrote an entire essay, just to patronizingly tell me things that I already know, while 1) simultaneously managing to ignore my entire point,which is that there are elements of 5e's design philosophy that are contradictory and inconsistent, 2) giving a list of options as if they prove your point while conveniently ignoring the fact that not every party will have access to those options, and 3) treating your own subjective experience and suppositions as objective and universal, when in reality they're not.
Oh, and while I'm at it: don't make assumptions about how I run my games. You don't know anything about how my games are run.
I'd be fine to play 5e in a world without or with few magic items, but I'd then be pretty pissed off when my fighter gets surrounded by creatures that can only be hit by magical attacks.
If you take magic items out of the game, you have to change the game.
For sure, village shops like those in Phandalin or Icewind Dale's Ten Towns might stock few if any magic items. However, small village or town stores, if in travelling distance of a major conurbation, might have listings of items available in more prestigious stores.
In the DMG you from page 133 to about page 232 (about 1/3rd of the book) you are given lists of magic items, how to create magic items, how to generate random treasure with magic items in them etc..) yet, the core advice from the book is, Magic Items should be so rare that players should almost never get any else it will break your game.
This isn't entirely accurate. The DMG doesn't, to the best of my knowledge, state anything about handing out too many magic items breaking your game. Also, the loot/treasure tables as well as what the official adventures dole out in terms of magical items certainly contradict the notion that "players should almost never get any" - Lost Mine of Phandelver, the official starter kit adventure to show new players what a game of D&D might be like, hands out several magical items and is intended for tier 1 play. The message I seem to be getting is more along the line that the players in regular games shouldn't simply get to pick whatever equipment they want and have it available, along with a suggested number of magical items of a given rarity by play tier.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I'd be fine to play 5e in a world without or with few magic items, but I'd then be pretty pissed off when my fighter gets surrounded by creatures that can only be hit by magical attacks.
If you take magic items out of the game, you have to change the game.
For sure, village shops like those in Phandalin or Icewind Dale's Ten Towns might stock few if any magic items. However, small village or town stores, if in travelling distance of a major conurbation, might have listings of items available in more prestigious stores.
You always have to keep in mind that there is a difference between mechanical balance and game balance. I don't think anyone is suggesting that a magic shop should have a full stock of all magic items available in the game and the players are only limited by what they can afford. Nor is anyone suggesting the players should find tons of magic items in dungeons, clearly that to would create balance issues.
The expectation from players is that it should be possible for them to find and buy some magic items, not because of mechanical advantages or greed, but because magic items are a part of a fantasy game, its a part of D&D, its part of the culture of the gmae. This is a normal expectation for players to have and the game should be mechanically balanced to handle that.
Mechanical balance is a design approach that asks the question if a character gains X item or power, does that unbalance the game. A good game design will ensure that the game remains balanced as long as you follow the advice and design of the game.
Game balance is where the mechanical design breaks down if the core rules and advice aren't followed in a specific game. For example, if you are a 1st level group of adventures and the DM puts you up against an Ancient Dragon with a CR 20 rating, that is not a problem with mechanical balance, but a problem with your specific game balance. You ignore the advice of the game so now your game is unbalanced, but this is not the fault of the game design.
The problem with 5e is that if you follow the advice of the books, if you follow the mechanical balance as outlined by the game design, your game WILL be very unbalanced.
This is a design problem with 5e. It is .. effectively a broken game. If you follow the rules of the game, follow its design requirements and effectively do as the DMG suggests, your game WILL be very unbalanced. The CR system, the way classes are built, the way magic items are handled.. all of it, even if you follow the rules will break the game.
It becomes then the job of the DM to figure it out against the advice of the book.
To me the way the DMG handles magic items is about the most broken thing I have ever seen in an RPG. In the DMG you from page 133 to about page 232 (about 1/3rd of the book) you are given lists of magic items, how to create magic items, how to generate random treasure with magic items in them etc..) yet, the core advice from the book is, Magic Items should be so rare that players should almost never get any else it will break your game.
Am I crazy, can anyone explain the principles behind what they are trying to accomplish with this layout and structure in the game? I mean, why add 100 pages of discussion and lists about magic items in the book, if the principal advice is "don't use this".
It's just shit design and it's not just shit design because it's bad, but because it also goes against the very foundation of fantasy writing, player expectations and gaming culture assumptions.
I may change my mind but I'm not currently a subscriber to the god of character balance. Parties work together and, if one character is more able than others, so long as others still have opportunities to interact, great. It's a bit like real life (although with all the more able people being wizards).
Neither am I a great fan of encounter balance. Just tell the players that some encounters they may face may kill them. It would then be up to them whether to engage and about the approach they take. It's a bit like real life where you can't always take things for granted and a gaming god may not have planned things out for you.
I think it can be difficult to talk about "the problem with 5e". There are many but, for me, balance is not an issue high on my list.
Games like risk in some ways can lack balance. Sure, games may start with some random or ordered system for territory distribution, but the player that gains control of Australia may typically have an advantage.
If you play the game with players that are only into min-maxing then balance will become a limiting factor. If you play the game with players who seek the best strategies with whatever they've got, balance doesn't have to be much of an issue.
In the DMG you from page 133 to about page 232 (about 1/3rd of the book) you are given lists of magic items, how to create magic items, how to generate random treasure with magic items in them etc..) yet, the core advice from the book is, Magic Items should be so rare that players should almost never get any else it will break your game.
This isn't entirely accurate. The DMG doesn't, to the best of my knowledge, state anything about handing out too many magic items breaking your game. Also, the loot/treasure tables as well as what the official adventures dole out in terms of magical items certainly contradict the notion that "players should almost never get any" - Lost Mine of Phandelver, the official starter kit adventure to show new players what a game of D&D might be like, hands out several magical items and is intended for tier 1 play. The message I seem to be getting is more along the line that the players in regular games shouldn't simply get to pick whatever equipment they want and have it available, along with a suggested number of magical items of a given rarity by play tier.
I don't think anyone was in favour of supermarket style magic shops. The DM is always the one who decides if an item is available or not in their setting.
In the DMG you from page 133 to about page 232 (about 1/3rd of the book) you are given lists of magic items, how to create magic items, how to generate random treasure with magic items in them etc..) yet, the core advice from the book is, Magic Items should be so rare that players should almost never get any else it will break your game.
This isn't entirely accurate. The DMG doesn't, to the best of my knowledge, state anything about handing out too many magic items breaking your game. Also, the loot/treasure tables as well as what the official adventures dole out in terms of magical items certainly contradict the notion that "players should almost never get any" - Lost Mine of Phandelver, the official starter kit adventure to show new players what a game of D&D might be like, hands out several magical items and is intended for tier 1 play. The message I seem to be getting is more along the line that the players in regular games shouldn't simply get to pick whatever equipment they want and have it available, along with a suggested number of magical items of a given rarity by play tier.
I don't think anyone was in favour of supermarket style magic shops. The DM is always the one who decides if an item is available or not in their setting.
Matt Coleville deliberately created a magic shop that carried literally everything and was accessible all over the world for a campaign. Said it was fun too. It'll work with some groups, likely not with others - as is the case for all of D&D, pretty much. Personally I'd maybe advise it for groups the DM knows aren't going to get hung up on milking the last bit of effectiveness and power out of their carefully budgeted funds, probably not so much for others. I'm a big fan of providing magical items to the PCs, quite possibly tailor-made for the characters too, just not vending machine style.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
In the DMG you from page 133 to about page 232 (about 1/3rd of the book) you are given lists of magic items, how to create magic items, how to generate random treasure with magic items in them etc..) yet, the core advice from the book is, Magic Items should be so rare that players should almost never get any else it will break your game.
This isn't entirely accurate. The DMG doesn't, to the best of my knowledge, state anything about handing out too many magic items breaking your game. Also, the loot/treasure tables as well as what the official adventures dole out in terms of magical items certainly contradict the notion that "players should almost never get any" - Lost Mine of Phandelver, the official starter kit adventure to show new players what a game of D&D might be like, hands out several magical items and is intended for tier 1 play. The message I seem to be getting is more along the line that the players in regular games shouldn't simply get to pick whatever equipment they want and have it available, along with a suggested number of magical items of a given rarity by play tier.
That bit about modules has always been the case. There have always been modules with sane levels of reward and others where magic items are given out like candy on Halloween
I think I'd be hard-pressed to find a module that didn't at least potentially provide magical items at fairly low levels. That aside, the more salient point is arguably what the DMG actually says and "players should almost never get any" doesn't seem to be it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
The certain poster in question, Kotath, was suggesting no such thing. The 'Certain Poster' in question was trying to make the point that the common refrain against allowing players to possess any magical gear that wasn't rolled on the Great Big Charts of Loot Nobody Wants in the DMG, i.e. "make the players go on a quest for it and Drive The Plot(C)!" is unhelpful when there's an actual plot to be following and players aren't going to want to divert from that plot for several months every single time somebody needs something that can't be bought in Billy Bob's Totally Mundane General Store. The DM saying "You're not allowed to make even basic white or green consumables without going on a six-month tangent to find the gall bladder of an Azmerian hypnotoad, found in only one place in the entire world across at least three oceans from you and with at least eight other ancient dragons between you and it" is as stupid as the DM saying "Oh sure, this ten-hut scrap village at the very fringes of not-quite-civilization has a Bertie's MegaMart outlet where you can find every single magical item in the books from Purple on downwards, and have a decent chance of finding orange."
Also? Knock it off with this 'Certain Poster' nonsense. You know my name. Use it. Address me directly if you're going to do so at all, please.
EDIT: @Pangurjan
Was Coleville the one that did that Hogwarts-esque shop where there were a bunch of storefronts but only one manufactory/warehouse where they were kept, in a different planar dimension? The storefront was simply cards and pictures, and an attendant from the family business trained to fetch items? Always thought that was a neat idea, and something that could prove a neat plot coupon in and of itself - how did such an enterprise get started, and what might such an enterprise have to do to maintain its business? Cool questions for curious players to delve into.
" I'm a big fan of providing magical items to the PCs, quite possibly tailor-made for the characters too, just not vending machine style."
This is exactly how I feel too. I worry that providing Magic Item Shops makes it a Vending Machine Style thing. I prefer to either 'plant' items for PCs to find, or make them available for purchase if they wish to pursue the quest of getting in touch with the seller. Items are sold among folks that have the contacts to find sellers.
I consider the presence of magic items to be an issue that would concern many nobles and other positions of authority because magic items may permit you to circumvent any safeguards the establishment has to maintain the status quo. For this reason, I would expect the authorities to attempt to collect and quarantine magic items, much like measures against ownership of automatic weapons today. The government wants to have them all and control who might receive them for use.
But that doesn't mean I wouldn't let PCs obtain magic items. I am just saying that the authorities will watch you once they know you have them, and some may seek an excuse to confiscate them. They may have good intentions, but their fear may may govern their reason. More evil authorities might try to seize them without compensation. Because of this, it is wise to remain in good graces with the authorities.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Prestigious magic item stores would either be established in locations close to Teleportation Circles or may seek to develop their own. Teleportation could be among a wide range of magical services provided.
" I'm a big fan of providing magical items to the PCs, quite possibly tailor-made for the characters too, just not vending machine style."
This is exactly how I feel too. I worry that providing Magic Item Shops makes it a Vending Machine Style thing. I prefer to either 'plant' items for PCs to find, or make them available for purchase if they wish to pursue the quest of getting in touch with the seller. Items are sold among folks that have the contacts to find sellers.
I consider the presence of magic items to be an issue that would concern many nobles and other positions of authority because magic items may permit you to circumvent any safeguards the establishment has to maintain the status quo. For this reason, I would expect the authorities to attempt to collect and quarantine magic items, much like measures against ownership of automatic weapons today. The government wants to have them all and control who might receive them for use.
But that doesn't mean I wouldn't let PCs obtain magic items. I am just saying that the authorities will watch you once they know you have them, and some may seek an excuse to confiscate them. They may have good intentions, but their fear may may govern their reason. More evil authorities might try to seize them without compensation. Because of this, it is wise to remain in good graces with the authorities.
The other thing about magic items is outside of gems and perhaps jewelry, it is the most concentrated form of wealth in the game. The idea that someone could stroll into a shop and pick something out breaks all immersion. Such a store would be more secure than the King's vault. Or more likely, the only magic items are in the king's vault.
I think fine art might be a better comparison. These are wonderous items we're talking about within which the miraculous has been worked into the mundane.
Locations, where the art is kept, are secure but that's fine. Anyone can walk to a set of bank vaults. Depending on a visitor's potential to trade, they might even get as far as the foyer.
You want magic items in your game? OK. I get that, it is "fun" and "cool" for many players, same way playing one of 56 different species is "cool". Then make every single item in the game something that must be attuned to, and it takes a Long Rest, plus Identify or Legend Lore or even mundane research to figure out the various abilities and command words. And under NO CIRCUMSTANCES does a player get to walk into a shop and say "I would like to buy a +2 Long Sword".
I don't care how you play your game but please don't tell us how we play is wrong or somehow ruining the purity of the classes/game as mentioned in a prior post.
Balance is a non issue in my opinion except for the new DMs but everything is rough for new DMs without guidance from an experienced player at the table. Every game, regardless of magic items, based on the different class/subclass distribution, number of players etc requires I adjust encounters/stat blocks. I don't see that as an additional problem caused by magic items and I don't see there ever being a perfect system where I don't have to make adjustments; parties are much to different campaign to campaign. I've got lots of practice at it anyway. Magic items might exacerbate it but it is something I can deal with and I suspect someone who has played for a long long time as a DM can as well. I personally would enjoy DnD less without magic items (found, shops and/or crafting) and I'm a forever DM. You do what you enjoy and you we'll do what we like. I am curious how an artificer would work in your world or are they from another world and not allowed?
If your point is NEW DM's should run games with no/very few magic items to get a feel for it first that's a topic probably worth considering/discussing. However, how do you learn that boots of elven kind and invisibility can lead to some shenanigans and whether you like those shenanigans or not unless you've been in a game and experienced it? I mean you could read endless dnd stories and not have that particular combination pop up. You could even have what they do memorized and just not think of how they work combined.
What I think is the prevalent concern here is following a set story over a short period of in game time (like the prewritten adventures). Where you often don't have time and it doesn't make sense to go off on a tangent for months (in game) at a time looking for something for a fight. Though fairly you don't always get to perfectly prepare for every fight but I do like my players to be able to feel their actions prior to the encounter they know is coming has had an effect. I'll run with whichever way they choose to prepare whether it's shops, reading lore, crafting or a side mission.
This is not about adventures where you have time to go do these things without the enemy putting it's plans on hold for the party to do so. It's about having some option to prepare and sometimes the only in game time you have is to run to the closest store and then run out to the battlefield. Maybe all you got at the store was a whetstone, some dents popped out of your armor or a new shield, or maybe some expensive magic potions are available and you buy out the stock only to forget to use them during the fight, or maybe you buy a new pair of boots of eleven kind to sneak up on the enemy. I'm ok with it either way whichever fits the location (obviously in your world magic items don't fit) as long as the players felt that they did what they could before the fight.
I suspect you'd also never make a fight where fire resistance was required to have a shot at winning but make it impossible to get fire resistance. I still believe your party would want to do as much preparation as possible and in your world they might not even know that a fire resistance potion is an option. In my world they certainly would know of the potions existence and if they knew they were about to face a dungeon/encounter full of fire based monsters that'd be their first stop. I'm perfectly ok with that and my encounters would be tuned knowing that.
I'm not suggesting all this be thrown around at every tier level and since we're discussing magic item shops I'm assuming definitely not tier 1 even if they knew of the potions they wouldn't have the funds or power to acquire one at that stage of the game. Basic health potions though? Definitely. Especially if low on healing classes.
If a party wants supplies for the next fight, that is at most a week away, and any supplies that would give them an edge aren't available except on a 6 month side mission they don't get the supplies. This feels bad when you know you have a week but no way to prepare in the given time frame due to trade/information being limited in the entirety of a world. I also strongly believe players will expect more magic items if your mundane item progression is quick or their starting items are the best mundane items they an get. No upgrades (no magic items) to equipment over the course of a campaign would lead me to be one sad boy.
For players in real life a side mission handled in game as opposed to just described during out of game down time can take far too long in real time depending on how often they can play and how long it takes that group to do things in game (RP heavy games tend to take more time). These players, in my experience, LOVE shops with customization options as their real life time is limited and going for the really cool item they've always wanted on that character but finding out it will take months of their real life time is discouraging or all together not something they want to spend time doing.
Of course all of this can be determined group by group, game by game and DM's should adjust to their players and/or the players should adjust their expectations to the world if it's a game they're interested in.
The game designers built the various classes and subclasses to function totally fine without any magic items.
Well, yes and no. In terms of pure numbers, the game is indeed designed to not require any magic items; however, it also assumes that a player will have access to some form of magical damage in higher tiers, in order to deal with monsters with resistance/immunity to non-magical damage. There's...a number of design decisions that directly contradict one another, which is very frustrating...
I keep on hearing this argument. "Weapon users need magic weapons, because some monsters resist non-magic weapons."
You know what? Some monsters resist spells, too. There's a feature literally named Magic Resistance. Some monsters have legendary resistances, and some have immunity to certain spells, or entire ranges of spell levels, or mechanics that can bounce spells back. Some have damage resistance for common elemental damage types. Some have immunity. Does this mean that casters need items that negate these mechanics? I don't think so. (Though I will acknowledge the ceaseless demand for ways to negate elemental resistances and immunities for one-trick elementalist casters.)
Not every monster is supposed to be handled the same way. If that were the case, why even have multiple kinds of monsters? Why not just increase the numbers on a goblin? A Fighter isn't somehow invalidated by the mere existence of monsters he can't hurt with his weapon, just like a Warlock isn't invalidated by the existence of the Helmed Horror (which has immunity to Eldritch Blast). Sometimes you have to change up your tactics. Sometimes you have to struggle. Sometimes you even have to retreat, or surrender. Sometimes you just have to let the other members of the party cover for you. Big deal.
And anyway, if you really want to bypass these damage resistances, every class has at least one option for you to do it without help from other characters. For Fighter, pick Arcane Archer, Eldritch Knight, or to a lesser extent Psi Warrior. For Rogue, pick Arcane Trickster. For Monk, pick literally any Monk. For Barbarian, pick Beast, Storm Herald, or Zealot, or even Ancestral Guardians if you're playing around level 14.
But that's all setting aside the fact that it's a team game and you have allies for a reason. Magic Weapon, Elemental Weapon, Holy Weapon, Dragon's Breath, Magic Stone, and Flame Arrows all work to address these types of challenges. Artificers can also enchant weapons to become magical for you, and so can Forge Clerics. When was the last time you saw any of these things happen? Do you think that has something to do with the availability of magic items in your games?
In summation: 1. Not being able to deal optimal, or even nonzero, damage to some monsters isn't sufficient to support that you "need" magic weapons. 2. You can get the equivalent of magic weapons without actually obtaining magic weapons. 3. Having a bunch of real magic weapons devalues those features.
I would go as far as to say the game is more fun without easy access to magic weapons. One of my favorite moments was the time we left all our gear at an entrance and had to fight a dragon using just one spear, enchanted with Holy Weapon, that we all had to share.
Tangent: The "equipment creep" of 3.5e is not really a thing in 5e, and I'm so glad. It's so soul-sucking to have to waste your hard earned gold just keeping your numbers high enough to function. My 3.5e Fighter has four different items contributing to his AC (magic armor, amulet of natural armor, gloves of dexterity, ring of protection), and his AC is still garbage because none of those items have a big enough modifier for the level I'm at. It's so dumb.
Amazing. You went and wrote an entire essay, just to patronizingly tell me things that I already know, while 1) simultaneously managing to ignore my entire point,which is that there are elements of 5e's design philosophy that are contradictory and inconsistent, 2) giving a list of options as if they prove your point while conveniently ignoring the fact that not every party will have access to those options, and 3) treating your own subjective experience and suppositions as objective and universal, when in reality they're not.
Oh, and while I'm at it: don't make assumptions about how I run my games. You don't know anything about how my games are run.
As a matter of fact, (which I would've thought was apparent), I was using your comment as a springboard to address a common argument I've heard time and time again. If you're adamant that your argument is different from that one, please feel free to elaborate, but understand that I'm not coming after you specifically.
In the DMG you from page 133 to about page 232 (about 1/3rd of the book) you are given lists of magic items, how to create magic items, how to generate random treasure with magic items in them etc..) yet, the core advice from the book is, Magic Items should be so rare that players should almost never get any else it will break your game.
This isn't entirely accurate. The DMG doesn't, to the best of my knowledge, state anything about handing out too many magic items breaking your game. Also, the loot/treasure tables as well as what the official adventures dole out in terms of magical items certainly contradict the notion that "players should almost never get any" - Lost Mine of Phandelver, the official starter kit adventure to show new players what a game of D&D might be like, hands out several magical items and is intended for tier 1 play. The message I seem to be getting is more along the line that the players in regular games shouldn't simply get to pick whatever equipment they want and have it available, along with a suggested number of magical items of a given rarity by play tier.
I don't think anyone was in favour of supermarket style magic shops. The DM is always the one who decides if an item is available or not in their setting.
Well a certain poster seemed to be insisting that if the main plot involved killing a red dragon, if there was not a convenient store with all the gear the party needed for that, simply available for purchase, then the DM was somehow punishing the players.
As somebody who railed against said poster, I think we both know you're being a little dishonest here. Which is exactly what was so annoying about the posts in question. So maybe don't.
As you point out, encounter balance for example is more a game balance thing than a mechanical one, you can't blame the designers for not being able to come up with a universal encounter balance formula because the circumstances of a battle have way too many factors.
You can, however, blame them for not learning from the mistakes of prior editions. Balancing around multiple encounters per day simply doesn't match the way anyone plays, and they've been (unsuccessfully) trying to shoehorn games into that model since 3e came out.
As you point out, encounter balance for example is more a game balance thing than a mechanical one, you can't blame the designers for not being able to come up with a universal encounter balance formula because the circumstances of a battle have way too many factors.
You can, however, blame them for not learning from the mistakes of prior editions. Balancing around multiple encounters per day simply doesn't match the way anyone plays, and they've been (unsuccessfully) trying to shoehorn games into that model since 3e came out.
I mean as a DM I regularly give my players multiple encounters in a day, they just finished clearing a sewer system of Oozes various and while they needed to take 2 short rests by the very end they where tapped of spells and abilities and had 3 characters go unconscious. That was 8 combat encounters in total ranging from just dealing with some rats, to carrion crawlers to then fighting the oozes
As you point out, encounter balance for example is more a game balance thing than a mechanical one, you can't blame the designers for not being able to come up with a universal encounter balance formula because the circumstances of a battle have way too many factors.
You can, however, blame them for not learning from the mistakes of prior editions. Balancing around multiple encounters per day simply doesn't match the way anyone plays, and they've been (unsuccessfully) trying to shoehorn games into that model since 3e came out.
What? Of course sometimes there are several encounters a day, not always sometimes there are no encounters and you have an rp session, or shopping spree or a gambling session, but yeah sometimes I run more that one combat a day. Otherwise Classes that work with short rests can just be thrown out all together. I take it you never played a Warlock in 5th?
What? Of course sometimes there are several encounters a day, not always sometimes there are no encounters and you have an rp session, or shopping spree or a gambling session, but yeah sometimes I run more that one combat a day. Otherwise Classes that work with short rests can just be thrown out all together. I take it you never played a Warlock in 5th?
I'm not saying multiple encounters per day never happen. I'm saying assuming 6-8 per day is typical is nonsense.
What? Of course sometimes there are several encounters a day, not always sometimes there are no encounters and you have an rp session, or shopping spree or a gambling session, but yeah sometimes I run more that one combat a day. Otherwise Classes that work with short rests can just be thrown out all together. I take it you never played a Warlock in 5th?
I'm not saying multiple encounters per day never happen. I'm saying assuming 6-8 per day is typical is nonsense.
Today I was planning out potential journeys my PCs might take. There are about 4 possible routes, each takes about a week, and each one has a chance of a random encounter per day. I'm not going to run them through 6-8 encounters to balance those. I just make every potential encounter beyond Deadly.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Amazing. You went and wrote an entire essay, just to patronizingly tell me things that I already know, while 1) simultaneously managing to ignore my entire point,which is that there are elements of 5e's design philosophy that are contradictory and inconsistent, 2) giving a list of options as if they prove your point while conveniently ignoring the fact that not every party will have access to those options, and 3) treating your own subjective experience and suppositions as objective and universal, when in reality they're not.
Oh, and while I'm at it: don't make assumptions about how I run my games. You don't know anything about how my games are run.
I'd be fine to play 5e in a world without or with few magic items, but I'd then be pretty pissed off when my fighter gets surrounded by creatures that can only be hit by magical attacks.
If you take magic items out of the game, you have to change the game.
For sure, village shops like those in Phandalin or Icewind Dale's Ten Towns might stock few if any magic items. However, small village or town stores, if in travelling distance of a major conurbation, might have listings of items available in more prestigious stores.
This isn't entirely accurate. The DMG doesn't, to the best of my knowledge, state anything about handing out too many magic items breaking your game. Also, the loot/treasure tables as well as what the official adventures dole out in terms of magical items certainly contradict the notion that "players should almost never get any" - Lost Mine of Phandelver, the official starter kit adventure to show new players what a game of D&D might be like, hands out several magical items and is intended for tier 1 play. The message I seem to be getting is more along the line that the players in regular games shouldn't simply get to pick whatever equipment they want and have it available, along with a suggested number of magical items of a given rarity by play tier.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I may change my mind but I'm not currently a subscriber to the god of character balance. Parties work together and, if one character is more able than others, so long as others still have opportunities to interact, great. It's a bit like real life (although with all the more able people being wizards).
Neither am I a great fan of encounter balance. Just tell the players that some encounters they may face may kill them. It would then be up to them whether to engage and about the approach they take. It's a bit like real life where you can't always take things for granted and a gaming god may not have planned things out for you.
I think it can be difficult to talk about "the problem with 5e". There are many but, for me, balance is not an issue high on my list.
Games like risk in some ways can lack balance. Sure, games may start with some random or ordered system for territory distribution, but the player that gains control of Australia may typically have an advantage.
If you play the game with players that are only into min-maxing then balance will become a limiting factor. If you play the game with players who seek the best strategies with whatever they've got, balance doesn't have to be much of an issue.
I don't think anyone was in favour of supermarket style magic shops. The DM is always the one who decides if an item is available or not in their setting.
Matt Coleville deliberately created a magic shop that carried literally everything and was accessible all over the world for a campaign. Said it was fun too. It'll work with some groups, likely not with others - as is the case for all of D&D, pretty much. Personally I'd maybe advise it for groups the DM knows aren't going to get hung up on milking the last bit of effectiveness and power out of their carefully budgeted funds, probably not so much for others. I'm a big fan of providing magical items to the PCs, quite possibly tailor-made for the characters too, just not vending machine style.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I think I'd be hard-pressed to find a module that didn't at least potentially provide magical items at fairly low levels. That aside, the more salient point is arguably what the DMG actually says and "players should almost never get any" doesn't seem to be it.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
The certain poster in question, Kotath, was suggesting no such thing. The 'Certain Poster' in question was trying to make the point that the common refrain against allowing players to possess any magical gear that wasn't rolled on the Great Big Charts of Loot Nobody Wants in the DMG, i.e. "make the players go on a quest for it and Drive The Plot(C)!" is unhelpful when there's an actual plot to be following and players aren't going to want to divert from that plot for several months every single time somebody needs something that can't be bought in Billy Bob's Totally Mundane General Store. The DM saying "You're not allowed to make even basic white or green consumables without going on a six-month tangent to find the gall bladder of an Azmerian hypnotoad, found in only one place in the entire world across at least three oceans from you and with at least eight other ancient dragons between you and it" is as stupid as the DM saying "Oh sure, this ten-hut scrap village at the very fringes of not-quite-civilization has a Bertie's MegaMart outlet where you can find every single magical item in the books from Purple on downwards, and have a decent chance of finding orange."
Also? Knock it off with this 'Certain Poster' nonsense. You know my name. Use it. Address me directly if you're going to do so at all, please.
EDIT: @Pangurjan
Was Coleville the one that did that Hogwarts-esque shop where there were a bunch of storefronts but only one manufactory/warehouse where they were kept, in a different planar dimension? The storefront was simply cards and pictures, and an attendant from the family business trained to fetch items? Always thought that was a neat idea, and something that could prove a neat plot coupon in and of itself - how did such an enterprise get started, and what might such an enterprise have to do to maintain its business? Cool questions for curious players to delve into.
Please do not contact or message me.
Panj,
" I'm a big fan of providing magical items to the PCs, quite possibly tailor-made for the characters too, just not vending machine style."
This is exactly how I feel too. I worry that providing Magic Item Shops makes it a Vending Machine Style thing. I prefer to either 'plant' items for PCs to find, or make them available for purchase if they wish to pursue the quest of getting in touch with the seller. Items are sold among folks that have the contacts to find sellers.
I consider the presence of magic items to be an issue that would concern many nobles and other positions of authority because magic items may permit you to circumvent any safeguards the establishment has to maintain the status quo. For this reason, I would expect the authorities to attempt to collect and quarantine magic items, much like measures against ownership of automatic weapons today. The government wants to have them all and control who might receive them for use.
But that doesn't mean I wouldn't let PCs obtain magic items. I am just saying that the authorities will watch you once they know you have them, and some may seek an excuse to confiscate them. They may have good intentions, but their fear may may govern their reason. More evil authorities might try to seize them without compensation. Because of this, it is wise to remain in good graces with the authorities.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Prestigious magic item stores would either be established in locations close to Teleportation Circles or may seek to develop their own. Teleportation could be among a wide range of magical services provided.
I think fine art might be a better comparison. These are wonderous items we're talking about within which the miraculous has been worked into the mundane.
Locations, where the art is kept, are secure but that's fine. Anyone can walk to a set of bank vaults. Depending on a visitor's potential to trade, they might even get as far as the foyer.
It may also be worth remembering that Plate Armour costs 1500gp and half plate costs half as much.
Starter magic items prices start from around 50gp.
I don't care how you play your game but please don't tell us how we play is wrong or somehow ruining the purity of the classes/game as mentioned in a prior post.
Balance is a non issue in my opinion except for the new DMs but everything is rough for new DMs without guidance from an experienced player at the table. Every game, regardless of magic items, based on the different class/subclass distribution, number of players etc requires I adjust encounters/stat blocks. I don't see that as an additional problem caused by magic items and I don't see there ever being a perfect system where I don't have to make adjustments; parties are much to different campaign to campaign. I've got lots of practice at it anyway. Magic items might exacerbate it but it is something I can deal with and I suspect someone who has played for a long long time as a DM can as well. I personally would enjoy DnD less without magic items (found, shops and/or crafting) and I'm a forever DM. You do what you enjoy and you we'll do what we like. I am curious how an artificer would work in your world or are they from another world and not allowed?
If your point is NEW DM's should run games with no/very few magic items to get a feel for it first that's a topic probably worth considering/discussing. However, how do you learn that boots of elven kind and invisibility can lead to some shenanigans and whether you like those shenanigans or not unless you've been in a game and experienced it? I mean you could read endless dnd stories and not have that particular combination pop up. You could even have what they do memorized and just not think of how they work combined.
What I think is the prevalent concern here is following a set story over a short period of in game time (like the prewritten adventures). Where you often don't have time and it doesn't make sense to go off on a tangent for months (in game) at a time looking for something for a fight. Though fairly you don't always get to perfectly prepare for every fight but I do like my players to be able to feel their actions prior to the encounter they know is coming has had an effect. I'll run with whichever way they choose to prepare whether it's shops, reading lore, crafting or a side mission.
This is not about adventures where you have time to go do these things without the enemy putting it's plans on hold for the party to do so. It's about having some option to prepare and sometimes the only in game time you have is to run to the closest store and then run out to the battlefield. Maybe all you got at the store was a whetstone, some dents popped out of your armor or a new shield, or maybe some expensive magic potions are available and you buy out the stock only to forget to use them during the fight, or maybe you buy a new pair of boots of eleven kind to sneak up on the enemy. I'm ok with it either way whichever fits the location (obviously in your world magic items don't fit) as long as the players felt that they did what they could before the fight.
I suspect you'd also never make a fight where fire resistance was required to have a shot at winning but make it impossible to get fire resistance. I still believe your party would want to do as much preparation as possible and in your world they might not even know that a fire resistance potion is an option. In my world they certainly would know of the potions existence and if they knew they were about to face a dungeon/encounter full of fire based monsters that'd be their first stop. I'm perfectly ok with that and my encounters would be tuned knowing that.
I'm not suggesting all this be thrown around at every tier level and since we're discussing magic item shops I'm assuming definitely not tier 1 even if they knew of the potions they wouldn't have the funds or power to acquire one at that stage of the game. Basic health potions though? Definitely. Especially if low on healing classes.
If a party wants supplies for the next fight, that is at most a week away, and any supplies that would give them an edge aren't available except on a 6 month side mission they don't get the supplies. This feels bad when you know you have a week but no way to prepare in the given time frame due to trade/information being limited in the entirety of a world. I also strongly believe players will expect more magic items if your mundane item progression is quick or their starting items are the best mundane items they an get. No upgrades (no magic items) to equipment over the course of a campaign would lead me to be one sad boy.
For players in real life a side mission handled in game as opposed to just described during out of game down time can take far too long in real time depending on how often they can play and how long it takes that group to do things in game (RP heavy games tend to take more time). These players, in my experience, LOVE shops with customization options as their real life time is limited and going for the really cool item they've always wanted on that character but finding out it will take months of their real life time is discouraging or all together not something they want to spend time doing.
Of course all of this can be determined group by group, game by game and DM's should adjust to their players and/or the players should adjust their expectations to the world if it's a game they're interested in.
How to get your dice to look like the ones in my profile picture and a full site dark mode.
Tutorial thread by Hyrkali
As a matter of fact, (which I would've thought was apparent), I was using your comment as a springboard to address a common argument I've heard time and time again. If you're adamant that your argument is different from that one, please feel free to elaborate, but understand that I'm not coming after you specifically.
As somebody who railed against said poster, I think we both know you're being a little dishonest here. Which is exactly what was so annoying about the posts in question. So maybe don't.
You can, however, blame them for not learning from the mistakes of prior editions. Balancing around multiple encounters per day simply doesn't match the way anyone plays, and they've been (unsuccessfully) trying to shoehorn games into that model since 3e came out.
I mean as a DM I regularly give my players multiple encounters in a day, they just finished clearing a sewer system of Oozes various and while they needed to take 2 short rests by the very end they where tapped of spells and abilities and had 3 characters go unconscious. That was 8 combat encounters in total ranging from just dealing with some rats, to carrion crawlers to then fighting the oozes
What? Of course sometimes there are several encounters a day, not always sometimes there are no encounters and you have an rp session, or shopping spree or a gambling session, but yeah sometimes I run more that one combat a day. Otherwise Classes that work with short rests can just be thrown out all together. I take it you never played a Warlock in 5th?
I'm not saying multiple encounters per day never happen. I'm saying assuming 6-8 per day is typical is nonsense.
Today I was planning out potential journeys my PCs might take. There are about 4 possible routes, each takes about a week, and each one has a chance of a random encounter per day. I'm not going to run them through 6-8 encounters to balance those. I just make every potential encounter beyond Deadly.