Hi all, I am presently DMing a fun group of friends, and recently one of my players very cleverly cast a Suggestion Spell at the end of a combat on the last remaining opponent in the fight - a dragonborn fighter. His Suggestion basically asked the fighter if he would help them retrieve an artifact from his boss, a high-level Wizard, who had just escaped the battle using a Dimension Door spell, abandoning the fighter.
The Suggestion obviously doesn't ask him to harm himself or for that matter, to hurt his boss directly, but it does ask him to help the people, who had been harming him a few moments ago, ultimately thwart his and his boss' quest to retrieve a series of artifact fragments, which will allow them to resurrect a fallen Demi-Lich. Would that constitute HARMING the Suggested Fighter?
My gut reaction is to say it does not. However, this fighter is a true believer of the cause he and his boss are following. Although emotionally hurt and scared by his boss' departure, he did have a resolve to fight to the death during the battle. In fact, I had scripted the encounter where the boss would escape and one of his disciples, the fighter in question or another character, would, as a last desperate act, trigger a self-destruct mechanism in the underground hideout where this fight was taking place. So in my mind, this fighter is truly committed to this cause, and was prepared to die to make it happen. So if he's under the influence of a Suggestion Spell, would he follow it because it could ultimately harm his cause? And if he would follow it, how would he do it? I'm open to suggestions (no pun intended) on how to execute this Suggestion for my players.
I should also state that I loved that my players thought to use this spell. It totally screwed up the Skills Challenge (hideout collapse) that I had set up, but it was a legitimate use of the spell and the Fighter failed his saving throw. I just want to apply this suggested course of action correctly.
"Harming” is not actually the standard for Suggestion - it’s whether the course of action “sounds reasonable.” The “no self harm” language of suggestion is there to automatically end the spell, but it is not the initial threshold that must be crossed.
The question is whether suggestion applies “reasonable” to mean “reasonable to the reasonable person” or “reasonable to the character being hit with the spell.”
Depending on which of these options you pick, the answer might be different. A reasonable person might find the course of action you presented perfectly reasonable, if explained in a way that justifies betraying their boss; the individual Dragonborn might not find it reasonable to help the folks who were just stabbing him, and thus it might be impossible to meet the threshold if judged at the individual level.
The spell is not clear on which way to use the phrase, so it is open to interpretation - so long as you are consistent in application, you should be fine.
To me the key part of Suggestion is this: "...or do some other obviously harmful act ends the spell." I don't think it's immediately obvious that aiding the adventurers will do him harm, and as far as I can tell retrieving this artefact won't do him harm because the party has not explicitely stated something along the lines of 'help us get this artefact so we can defeat you with it'.
Per the spell text it would seem "reasonable" to prevent the rise of a fallen demi-lich especially when one is capable and in a party of capable adventurers (while the effects of the spell last).
You may get mixed responses on this, but that would only go to show how easy it is to interpret the wording of the spell differently. Ultimately you're the DM, and you ought to want everyone at the table - including yourself - to have fun. If this enhances the game for you, go for it. If it subtracts from the game, say the fighter remains under the effects of the spell for its duration but won't take that specific command, or the spell ends.
Zero is the most important number in D&D: Session Zero sets the boundaries and the tone; Rule Zero dictates the Dungeon Master (DM) is the final arbiter; and Zero D&D is better than Bad D&D.
"Let us speak plainly now, and in earnest, for words mean little without the weight of conviction."
Thank you Caerwyn and HexTherapy for your input. It's very helpful. I'm thinking that the spell will work because it will create an interesting wrinkle to the encounter. The caster did word their suggestion to include the betrayal of his boss' departure, which in my opinion allows the spell to reach the "Reasonable" suggestion threshold. From there they are going to get more than they bargain for because the Suggested Fighter will immediately say, "Follow me!!!" and rush off to pursue his boss. Whether he actually leads them to his boss or not makes no difference, he will be immediately leading them back into a store front they had broken into the night before in the heart of the day, which will cause a stir with the store owners as well as possibly the city guard as he guides their fight to the city streets. All hell will break lose, and they will have to make some hard choices before that happens. I'm looking forward to the chaos that this Suggested Fighter will now create.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Hi all, I am presently DMing a fun group of friends, and recently one of my players very cleverly cast a Suggestion Spell at the end of a combat on the last remaining opponent in the fight - a dragonborn fighter. His Suggestion basically asked the fighter if he would help them retrieve an artifact from his boss, a high-level Wizard, who had just escaped the battle using a Dimension Door spell, abandoning the fighter.
The Suggestion obviously doesn't ask him to harm himself or for that matter, to hurt his boss directly, but it does ask him to help the people, who had been harming him a few moments ago, ultimately thwart his and his boss' quest to retrieve a series of artifact fragments, which will allow them to resurrect a fallen Demi-Lich. Would that constitute HARMING the Suggested Fighter?
My gut reaction is to say it does not. However, this fighter is a true believer of the cause he and his boss are following. Although emotionally hurt and scared by his boss' departure, he did have a resolve to fight to the death during the battle. In fact, I had scripted the encounter where the boss would escape and one of his disciples, the fighter in question or another character, would, as a last desperate act, trigger a self-destruct mechanism in the underground hideout where this fight was taking place. So in my mind, this fighter is truly committed to this cause, and was prepared to die to make it happen. So if he's under the influence of a Suggestion Spell, would he follow it because it could ultimately harm his cause? And if he would follow it, how would he do it? I'm open to suggestions (no pun intended) on how to execute this Suggestion for my players.
I should also state that I loved that my players thought to use this spell. It totally screwed up the Skills Challenge (hideout collapse) that I had set up, but it was a legitimate use of the spell and the Fighter failed his saving throw. I just want to apply this suggested course of action correctly.
"Harming” is not actually the standard for Suggestion - it’s whether the course of action “sounds reasonable.” The “no self harm” language of suggestion is there to automatically end the spell, but it is not the initial threshold that must be crossed.
The question is whether suggestion applies “reasonable” to mean “reasonable to the reasonable person” or “reasonable to the character being hit with the spell.”
Depending on which of these options you pick, the answer might be different. A reasonable person might find the course of action you presented perfectly reasonable, if explained in a way that justifies betraying their boss; the individual Dragonborn might not find it reasonable to help the folks who were just stabbing him, and thus it might be impossible to meet the threshold if judged at the individual level.
The spell is not clear on which way to use the phrase, so it is open to interpretation - so long as you are consistent in application, you should be fine.
To me the key part of Suggestion is this: "...or do some other obviously harmful act ends the spell." I don't think it's immediately obvious that aiding the adventurers will do him harm, and as far as I can tell retrieving this artefact won't do him harm because the party has not explicitely stated something along the lines of 'help us get this artefact so we can defeat you with it'.
Per the spell text it would seem "reasonable" to prevent the rise of a fallen demi-lich especially when one is capable and in a party of capable adventurers (while the effects of the spell last).
You may get mixed responses on this, but that would only go to show how easy it is to interpret the wording of the spell differently. Ultimately you're the DM, and you ought to want everyone at the table - including yourself - to have fun. If this enhances the game for you, go for it. If it subtracts from the game, say the fighter remains under the effects of the spell for its duration but won't take that specific command, or the spell ends.
Zero is the most important number in D&D: Session Zero sets the boundaries and the tone; Rule Zero dictates the Dungeon Master (DM) is the final arbiter; and Zero D&D is better than Bad D&D.
"Let us speak plainly now, and in earnest, for words mean little without the weight of conviction."
- The Assemblage of Houses, World of Warcraft
Thank you Caerwyn and HexTherapy for your input. It's very helpful. I'm thinking that the spell will work because it will create an interesting wrinkle to the encounter. The caster did word their suggestion to include the betrayal of his boss' departure, which in my opinion allows the spell to reach the "Reasonable" suggestion threshold. From there they are going to get more than they bargain for because the Suggested Fighter will immediately say, "Follow me!!!" and rush off to pursue his boss. Whether he actually leads them to his boss or not makes no difference, he will be immediately leading them back into a store front they had broken into the night before in the heart of the day, which will cause a stir with the store owners as well as possibly the city guard as he guides their fight to the city streets. All hell will break lose, and they will have to make some hard choices before that happens. I'm looking forward to the chaos that this Suggested Fighter will now create.