There's been a sort of unstated rule that "objects" don't include things as big and complicated as ships. I'm not sure where else it's come up, exactly, but it has.
You can't Reduce a castle, for example, potentially crushing everyone inside.
I'd rule that enough of even metal hulled ships are nonmetal to disallow a ship as a target. Otherwise it is a no save kill entire crew on ship and could acquire the unharmed ship easily...with no counter... Can't see how anyone would enjoy that.
It's almost like they did a bad job with writing this because they decided to split the material into three books that each had to be the same length and this didn't leave them with nearly enough space to properly flesh out the material.
So if you do the math on what these ships Str score is based on their carrying capacity. You get a number in the hundreds. I think to properly give them scores you would need to create new size categories greater than gargantuan. Con and Dex could get scores with existing system.
One of the problems with automatically failing saves mean a Dragon's Breath (Ancient Red Dragon average 91 pts damage), Disintegrate (10 ft Cube)(Beholders are a thing), Meteor Swarm spell, causing horrific damage with no way of mitigating. Most spells target creatures so should not be and issue just pointing it out.
It's almost like it's something that could have been addressed when they were creating rules for vehicles.
It is.
If we are being hopeful, then they may fix this with the One D&D release and decided to release spelljammer with those intended changes in mind... Lazy yes but if they came out and said this is their intentions and gave a UA playtest document with those rules... we'd be in a far better situation...
However that isn't likely to happen even if they could still claim they always intended to do it and just the timing on the UA release got delayed.
Hint to anyone with an ear at WoTC... Get them to release a vehicle rules playtest article for One D&D as soon as possible...we can test those rules using Saltmarsh, BGDiA, and Spelljammer. After all those adventures are supposed to still work with the new edition... Let us test it out...
One of the problems with automatically failing saves mean a Dragon's Breath (Ancient Red Dragon average 91 pts damage), Disintegrate (10 ft Cube)(Beholders are a thing), Meteor Swarm spell, causing horrific damage with no way of mitigating. Most spells target creatures so should not be and issue just pointing it out.
Ancient red dragon breath doesn't hurt objects, and even if it did, a ship isn't an object. Deleting a 10ft chunk of a space ship doesn't do damage, and arguably doesn't even hurt it really. It's not like it would take on water. Also, it's not an object, so it couldn't be targeted. The disintegration ray works the same way. Meteor Swarm also doesn't affect objects, but even if it did, a ship isn't an object so it's safe.
From the Basic Rules:
"For the purpose of these rules, an object is a discrete, inanimate item like a window, door, sword, book, table, chair, or stone, not a building or a vehicle that is composed of many other objects."
One of the problems with automatically failing saves mean a Dragon's Breath (Ancient Red Dragon average 91 pts damage), Disintegrate (10 ft Cube)(Beholders are a thing), Meteor Swarm spell, causing horrific damage with no way of mitigating. Most spells target creatures so should not be and issue just pointing it out.
Ancient red dragon breath doesn't hurt objects, and even if it did, a ship isn't an object. Deleting a 10ft chunk of a space ship doesn't do damage, and arguably doesn't even hurt it really. It's not like it would take on water. Also, it's not an object, so it couldn't be targeted. The disintegration ray works the same way. Meteor Swarm also doesn't affect objects, but even if it did, a ship isn't an object so it's safe.
From the Basic Rules:
"For the purpose of these rules, an object is a discrete, inanimate item like a window, door, sword, book, table, chair, or stone, not a building or a vehicle that is composed of many other objects."
Your distinction is immaterial - under a DM that agrees a Spelljamming ship is a set of objects rather than 1 object, you can still apply things like Disintegrate to whatever object that 10x10x10 chunk of the ship counts as.
But also, Spelljamming ships don't follow the vehicle rules - in particular, even if your Spelljammer who's piloting the ship is proficient in Vehicles (Water), they won't add their proficiency bonus to a Turtle Ship's AC. If you read the chapter about spelljamming vessels, the word "vehicle" doesn't appear anywhere. I say this to emphasize that the spelljamming vessels are absolutely written to behave as monolithic objects - in particular, if you treat them as a set of objects, their HP values lose all meaning. When you shoot at the ship you won't ever hit the listed HP pool if instead you hit some other object that's a constituent part.
I guess you're right. I did a quick search for the word "object" in the ships chapter and it definitely uses that word to refer to space ships.
I would argue that the threats listed as examples SHOULD be devastating to space ships. That doesn't strike me as a problem. Except Disintegrate. You'd need a lot of Disintegrates unless you hit the helm maybe. Edit: The helm is magical, so it's unaffected.
The lack of details in ability scores and the fact that the pilot must essentially attune to the spelljamming helm has made me just assume that the STR, DEX, and CON are whatever the pilot's are. Symbiosis.
Get in a motorboat, turn as tight a circle as you possibly can, test out how quickly it can accelerate, and all that jazz.
Now do it in an aircraft carrier.
Is it really all down to the pilot's reflexes, their ability to twist and contort?
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
That's true, but it's still a function of the vessel. Compare an F-35 and a 747. The vessel has at least as much effect on how well it performs as the pilot.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
A spelljammer can go 4 million mph when not in tactical combat. So, motorboat, aircraft carrier, jet ski, it doesn't matter. 4 million mph. Why? Attunement with the pilot's thoughts. I just assume that, as this is a magical ship operated by magic, the STR, DEX, and CON of the pilot are what are offered to the ship.
Of course, this means that damage to the ship will lily adversely affect the pilot as well...
That seems more of a problem with the heat metal spell than it does with Spell Jammer. You could argue the same thing for any building that uses metal. Of course you could limit the spell to a 10 ft cube for larger objects.
I'm sorry for posting so many months after the fact, but you really need to reassess your position on this subject. Even if what you're saying mechanically fits with preexisting fifth edition rules you must concede that an ancient red dragon's breath attack not damaging a ship is silly and runs completely counter to the fantasy that the rules system is trying to emulate.
There are solar dragons and other large creatures in the spelljammer books that can attack a ship, some of those attacks require a saving throw, not accounting for this inevitability was a massive oversight. It doesn't matter what the specifics of the object rules are, it's still an oversight that doesn't satisfactorily adjudicate the actions taken by the creatures involved in the scene.
(FYI, in the future consider calling out the username. When you use the Reply button, the only person who knows who you're replying to, is the person you're replying to (in this case, me), and it looks exactly the same as it would if you were just posting normally.)
I agree that it's silly that a dragon can't blow up a Spelljammer by breathing elemental damage onto it. I just disagree that the proper solution to that problem is to make it work like a player character making a saving throw against that same breath weapon. It might be, but I don't really know. Maybe it's better to leave it vague. After all, actually losing your ship to a good/bad roll is basically a campaign ender in many circumstances. You don't want that to happen unexpectedly.
Without having played it either way, I can't really say anything more that would be useful. I give the floor to anyone who has more experience here.
A ship has the six ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma) and the corresponding modifiers.
The Strength of a ship expresses its size and weight. Dexterity represents a ship’s ease of handling. A ship’s Constitution covers its durability and the quality of its construction. Ships usually have a score of 0 in Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma.
STR and CON get bigger with bigger ships. Dex gets smaller down to 4 on some ships. But the smaller the ship the higher the dex. A row boat has a dex 8. So base dex 4 plus 1d4.
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There's been a sort of unstated rule that "objects" don't include things as big and complicated as ships. I'm not sure where else it's come up, exactly, but it has.
You can't Reduce a castle, for example, potentially crushing everyone inside.
It's almost like they did a bad job with writing this because they decided to split the material into three books that each had to be the same length and this didn't leave them with nearly enough space to properly flesh out the material.
So if you do the math on what these ships Str score is based on their carrying capacity. You get a number in the hundreds. I think to properly give them scores you would need to create new size categories greater than gargantuan. Con and Dex could get scores with existing system.
It's almost like it's something that could have been addressed when they were creating rules for vehicles.
One of the problems with automatically failing saves mean a Dragon's Breath (Ancient Red Dragon average 91 pts damage), Disintegrate (10 ft Cube)(Beholders are a thing), Meteor Swarm spell, causing horrific damage with no way of mitigating. Most spells target creatures so should not be and issue just pointing it out.
It is.
If we are being hopeful, then they may fix this with the One D&D release and decided to release spelljammer with those intended changes in mind... Lazy yes but if they came out and said this is their intentions and gave a UA playtest document with those rules... we'd be in a far better situation...
However that isn't likely to happen even if they could still claim they always intended to do it and just the timing on the UA release got delayed.
Hint to anyone with an ear at WoTC... Get them to release a vehicle rules playtest article for One D&D as soon as possible...we can test those rules using Saltmarsh, BGDiA, and Spelljammer. After all those adventures are supposed to still work with the new edition... Let us test it out...
Ancient red dragon breath doesn't hurt objects, and even if it did, a ship isn't an object. Deleting a 10ft chunk of a space ship doesn't do damage, and arguably doesn't even hurt it really. It's not like it would take on water. Also, it's not an object, so it couldn't be targeted. The disintegration ray works the same way. Meteor Swarm also doesn't affect objects, but even if it did, a ship isn't an object so it's safe.
From the Basic Rules:
"For the purpose of these rules, an object is a discrete, inanimate item like a window, door, sword, book, table, chair, or stone, not a building or a vehicle that is composed of many other objects."
Your distinction is immaterial - under a DM that agrees a Spelljamming ship is a set of objects rather than 1 object, you can still apply things like Disintegrate to whatever object that 10x10x10 chunk of the ship counts as.
But also, Spelljamming ships don't follow the vehicle rules - in particular, even if your Spelljammer who's piloting the ship is proficient in Vehicles (Water), they won't add their proficiency bonus to a Turtle Ship's AC. If you read the chapter about spelljamming vessels, the word "vehicle" doesn't appear anywhere. I say this to emphasize that the spelljamming vessels are absolutely written to behave as monolithic objects - in particular, if you treat them as a set of objects, their HP values lose all meaning. When you shoot at the ship you won't ever hit the listed HP pool if instead you hit some other object that's a constituent part.
I guess you're right. I did a quick search for the word "object" in the ships chapter and it definitely uses that word to refer to space ships.
I would argue that the threats listed as examples SHOULD be devastating to space ships. That doesn't strike me as a problem. Except Disintegrate. You'd need a lot of Disintegrates unless you hit the helm maybe. Edit: The helm is magical, so it's unaffected.
The lack of details in ability scores and the fact that the pilot must essentially attune to the spelljamming helm has made me just assume that the STR, DEX, and CON are whatever the pilot's are. Symbiosis.
Thought experiment:
Get in a motorboat, turn as tight a circle as you possibly can, test out how quickly it can accelerate, and all that jazz.
Now do it in an aircraft carrier.
Is it really all down to the pilot's reflexes, their ability to twist and contort?
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
That's true, but it's still a function of the vessel. Compare an F-35 and a 747. The vessel has at least as much effect on how well it performs as the pilot.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
A spelljammer can go 4 million mph when not in tactical combat. So, motorboat, aircraft carrier, jet ski, it doesn't matter. 4 million mph. Why? Attunement with the pilot's thoughts. I just assume that, as this is a magical ship operated by magic, the STR, DEX, and CON of the pilot are what are offered to the ship.
Of course, this means that damage to the ship will lily adversely affect the pilot as well...
I mean this is just one of the many reasons why this is the worst expansion WOTC have ever made.
That seems more of a problem with the heat metal spell than it does with Spell Jammer. You could argue the same thing for any building that uses metal. Of course you could limit the spell to a 10 ft cube for larger objects.
I'm sorry for posting so many months after the fact, but you really need to reassess your position on this subject. Even if what you're saying mechanically fits with preexisting fifth edition rules you must concede that an ancient red dragon's breath attack not damaging a ship is silly and runs completely counter to the fantasy that the rules system is trying to emulate.
There are solar dragons and other large creatures in the spelljammer books that can attack a ship, some of those attacks require a saving throw, not accounting for this inevitability was a massive oversight. It doesn't matter what the specifics of the object rules are, it's still an oversight that doesn't satisfactorily adjudicate the actions taken by the creatures involved in the scene.
(FYI, in the future consider calling out the username. When you use the Reply button, the only person who knows who you're replying to, is the person you're replying to (in this case, me), and it looks exactly the same as it would if you were just posting normally.)
I agree that it's silly that a dragon can't blow up a Spelljammer by breathing elemental damage onto it. I just disagree that the proper solution to that problem is to make it work like a player character making a saving throw against that same breath weapon. It might be, but I don't really know. Maybe it's better to leave it vague. After all, actually losing your ship to a good/bad roll is basically a campaign ender in many circumstances. You don't want that to happen unexpectedly.
Without having played it either way, I can't really say anything more that would be useful. I give the floor to anyone who has more experience here.
How do you determine the strength, dex and con stats though?
for ship this is from Ghost of Saltmarsh
Ability Scores
A ship has the six ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma) and the corresponding modifiers.
The Strength of a ship expresses its size and weight. Dexterity represents a ship’s ease of handling. A ship’s Constitution covers its durability and the quality of its construction. Ships usually have a score of 0 in Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma.
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
Condition Immunities blinded, charmed, deafened, exhaustion, frightened, incapacitated, paralyzed, petrified, poisoned, prone, stunned, unconscious
this immunity seems to be the same on all ships.
STR and CON get bigger with bigger ships. Dex gets smaller down to 4 on some ships. But the smaller the ship the higher the dex. A row boat has a dex 8. So base dex 4 plus 1d4.
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.