As a Player how do you feel about the rules and which of the things,, I mentioned do you most object to and what other mechanics would you propose to make magic items in the game more fun.
For starters, if you're going to obey the rules for attunement, you should obey the rules for rarity. It's one thing to make common magic items trivially acquirable by the party - making legendary ones trivial defeats the entire purpose of rarity.
Second, feel free to hand out magic items that have charges and hence run out, so they're less spammable.
Third, bear in mind WOTC did not put real effort into the rarity or attunement mechanics, so make sure you double-check both when handing out magic items.
Finally, feel free to give magic items downsides/curses, so using them is less of an obvious choice.
In a lot of ways, 5e is reactionary against 4e's perceived power creep
While a lot of stuff in 5e is reactionary to 4e, which did have a red queen's race for bonuses (well, made it explicit, it was already there in 3.5e), I don't think the attunement mechanic is one of them -- 4e characters could perfectly well keep up with the power curve on three items (weapon, armor, neck slot). Rather, I think it's a reaction to 3.5e, where you had six or more (weapon, armor, natural armor, deflection, save bonus, primary ability score increase, and possibly other things like skill or secondary ability score).
Luck bonus, size bonus, dodge bonus, competence bonus, morale bonus, circumstance bonus, and of course it would be adjusted by different levels of cover. Many conditions affected your AC, and so would being flat-footed or flanked. You could fight defensively or charge to adjust your AC further, and each of these would be different if you had the right feats. And of course, if your Dexterity score happened to change because you got a ring, gloves, or other items... Or Cat's Grace... Or hit by ability drain or level drain... Then you would need to recalculate ALL of these.
For starters, I hate the Gygax style game of every two steps pain, no magic, no loot gaming. People come to D&D to live a fantasy, some people want to play a power fantasy, I let them. To balance it out I give them harder monsters, with plenty of lead up and clues on how to win. I encourage smart game play, and I do not withhold valuable loot. I also use random loot tables, and even some old 2nd edition material to fluff up loot some times.
The challenge isn't how tough the DM makes the player experience, it's how awesome and hard a good raiding experience can be. It's like a video game, you don't withhold gains, you make the challenge harder and more interesting.
The problem with bonus stacking isn't actually with its power level, it's that it's boring to have to add a half dozen to a dozen items, all of which have really bland effects, to keep up with the power level.
If you are looking for a way to limit magic I would have most potions have an expiration date unless they were in a special container and or in a special container in a container that protects them from environmental effects. This would mean for healing they party had to pick herbs and make potions or rely on wands, staffs, rods (in the most part) for healing as well as have the players do more RP finding interesting herbs and substances and then creating ways to try and achieve the affect they were after (it is not just throw herb(s) into pot, boil and then put into flask but a multi step process that once the detail is worked out the GM can then have you roll and not go over the process again. Note this is not for all groups)
If you are looking for a way to limit magic I would have most potions have an expiration date unless they were in a special container and or in a special container in a container that protects them from environmental effects. This would mean for healing they party had to pick herbs and make potions or rely on wands, staffs, rods (in the most part) for healing as well as have the players do more RP finding interesting herbs and substances and then creating ways to try and achieve the affect they were after (it is not just throw herb(s) into pot, boil and then put into flask but a multi step process that once the detail is worked out the GM can then have you roll and not go over the process again. Note this is not for all groups)
Maybe it's just because I had to do it for work for years, but I don't find the idea of managing expiration dates fun. If you're trying to increase turnover of potions, I'd put in a harder encounter or two...and then prompt the party to use their potions. Whenever you feel that the party has too many potions or you want them to have to replenish stock, buff a few encounters and they'll use them. Or harass them during rests so they have to use potions instead of Hit Dice.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
If you are looking for a way to limit magic I would have most potions have an expiration date unless they were in a special container and or in a special container in a container that protects them from environmental effects. This would mean for healing they party had to pick herbs and make potions or rely on wands, staffs, rods (in the most part) for healing as well as have the players do more RP finding interesting herbs and substances and then creating ways to try and achieve the affect they were after (it is not just throw herb(s) into pot, boil and then put into flask but a multi step process that once the detail is worked out the GM can then have you roll and not go over the process again. Note this is not for all groups)
Then your wonderful fantasy RPG becomes some sort of inventory management game.
It depends on what you mean by inventory management? It is simple to say this potion last for 7 days just like you have abilities that recharge after a short or long rest.
Note: I have also played in and seen games that do not like this and are more like an author or director " rpg game".
If you are looking for a way to limit magic I would have most potions have an expiration date unless they were in a special container and or in a special container in a container that protects them from environmental effects. This would mean for healing they party had to pick herbs and make potions or rely on wands, staffs, rods (in the most part) for healing as well as have the players do more RP finding interesting herbs and substances and then creating ways to try and achieve the affect they were after (it is not just throw herb(s) into pot, boil and then put into flask but a multi step process that once the detail is worked out the GM can then have you roll and not go over the process again. Note this is not for all groups)
Maybe it's just because I had to do it for work for years, but I don't find the idea of managing expiration dates fun. If you're trying to increase turnover of potions, I'd put in a harder encounter or two...and then prompt the party to use their potions. Whenever you feel that the party has too many potions or you want them to have to replenish stock, buff a few encounters and they'll use them. Or harass them during rests so they have to use potions instead of Hit Dice.
In general I do not design encounters thinking the party has too much of X and I want to reduce that for some reason (drama, what I feel is too much X). I have seen people say that want to design encounters so the party has taken 60% damage before the creature dead and others like that. To them I say what if the party enters into the combat less then 60% HP or can the party damage themselves and kill the creature? I do understand that some think that damage is drama and a fight cannot be dramatic if PC's do not enter into some "red" HP zone, but I am not one of them.
I can also see a problem with too many potions with limited time span, for example the party finds a large group of herbs and can make 100 potions of Red Star Flower healing (4d10) that last for 7 days. I think most people would find that problematic in their games based on how I have seen 5e deals with magic items in general. Note: if your 5e game deals a lot of damage all the time then your play style might require this level of healing (as well as a general adjustment in healing spell power)...again this is not the default in 5e as I have seen playing and reading books.
If you are looking for a way to limit magic I would have most potions have an expiration date unless they were in a special container and or in a special container in a container that protects them from environmental effects. This would mean for healing they party had to pick herbs and make potions or rely on wands, staffs, rods (in the most part) for healing as well as have the players do more RP finding interesting herbs and substances and then creating ways to try and achieve the affect they were after (it is not just throw herb(s) into pot, boil and then put into flask but a multi step process that once the detail is worked out the GM can then have you roll and not go over the process again. Note this is not for all groups)
Then your wonderful fantasy RPG becomes some sort of inventory management game.
Oh no, it's the goodberry storage thread all over again
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
If you're not interested in limiting their stock of potions...why bother with expiry dates then? It's just more bookkeeping.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
If you are looking for a way to limit magic I would have most potions have an expiration date unless they were in a special container and or in a special container in a container that protects them from environmental effects. This would mean for healing they party had to pick herbs and make potions or rely on wands, staffs, rods (in the most part) for healing as well as have the players do more RP finding interesting herbs and substances and then creating ways to try and achieve the affect they were after (it is not just throw herb(s) into pot, boil and then put into flask but a multi step process that once the detail is worked out the GM can then have you roll and not go over the process again. Note this is not for all groups)
Then your wonderful fantasy RPG becomes some sort of inventory management game.
It depends on what you mean by inventory management? It is simple to say this potion last for 7 days just like you have abilities that recharge after a short or long rest.
Note: I have also played in and seen games that do not like this and are more like an author or director " rpg game".
What other recharges are longer than a day? The issue is that you have to keep separate shelf lives for each potion, plus have an explanation as to how the party are able to find any potions anywhere other than a shop brewing them freshly daily. You have to maintain inventory lists for shops by remaining potency, for treasure by remaining potency....
Party: Look, we'd like to help, but we have to get back to town within the next three hours
NPC: Why?
Party: That's when the magic shop puts out their marked-down potions that are about to go bad
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You can deal with consumables and limited-use items in a similar way as attunement: limit the number that can be used per day. Or make activating them cost a resource, such as hit dice.
Which reminds me of something I did on my gnome once. Using a DM's Homebrew ring that was based on old video games allowing you to have an extra life. Needed mushrooms to recharge it.
Dimension Door and a bag of 10 Gnomengarde grenades.
Do the math... ancient red dragon stood no chance for the teleport from one foot to his head.
If you're not interested in limiting their stock of potions...why bother with expiry dates then? It's just more bookkeeping.
When I have played in games that provide means to make potions that have an meaningful effect there is often a need to provide some balancing feature (rules) also if you are hunting for materials to make things it can provide RP outlets. I agree that everyone does not like this style of play and that it can be pushed to extremes.
I am also not saying having some potion limiting features means I am for (or against) limits on all potions. I say this because that has been put forth by posters in the past. For example I do not think a potion should give the drinker the same abilities as a staff of the magi for 1 hour or even all for all spells to be put into potion form.
Also in the past when people have talked about using attunement to limit magic items it is almost always accompanied by limiting all magic items in the game and or setting. Again I have played in games where there have been a lot of magic items and very few the problems I have seen is when the GM and or players are playing one style in the other game and when GM's tend to be directors and or authors vs GM's.
If you are looking for a way to limit magic I would have most potions have an expiration date unless they were in a special container and or in a special container in a container that protects them from environmental effects. This would mean for healing they party had to pick herbs and make potions or rely on wands, staffs, rods (in the most part) for healing as well as have the players do more RP finding interesting herbs and substances and then creating ways to try and achieve the affect they were after (it is not just throw herb(s) into pot, boil and then put into flask but a multi step process that once the detail is worked out the GM can then have you roll and not go over the process again. Note this is not for all groups)
Then your wonderful fantasy RPG becomes some sort of inventory management game.
It depends on what you mean by inventory management? It is simple to say this potion last for 7 days just like you have abilities that recharge after a short or long rest.
Note: I have also played in and seen games that do not like this and are more like an author or director " rpg game".
What other recharges are longer than a day? The issue is that you have to keep separate shelf lives for each potion, plus have an explanation as to how the party are able to find any potions anywhere other than a shop brewing them freshly daily. You have to maintain inventory lists for shops by remaining potency, for treasure by remaining potency....
Edit: Plus, besides the needing parts issue, it takes a week to make an uncommon potion. You would give it only a 7 day shelf life? Who, PC or NPC would make potions?
Yes potions are a cheep limited resource not permanently stable items like a magic sword or staff tends to be.
I would default to a carrot method for getting players to proactively use their potions, not a stick method. A low-impact tweak could be, if you drink a fresh potion, you get some temporary hit points on top of the normal effect of the potion. Like 2d4 maybe. But stale potions don't give you that.
I mean, I don't perceive there to be a problem with potions myself. But if I did.
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For starters, if you're going to obey the rules for attunement, you should obey the rules for rarity. It's one thing to make common magic items trivially acquirable by the party - making legendary ones trivial defeats the entire purpose of rarity.
Second, feel free to hand out magic items that have charges and hence run out, so they're less spammable.
Third, bear in mind WOTC did not put real effort into the rarity or attunement mechanics, so make sure you double-check both when handing out magic items.
Finally, feel free to give magic items downsides/curses, so using them is less of an obvious choice.
While a lot of stuff in 5e is reactionary to 4e, which did have a red queen's race for bonuses (well, made it explicit, it was already there in 3.5e), I don't think the attunement mechanic is one of them -- 4e characters could perfectly well keep up with the power curve on three items (weapon, armor, neck slot). Rather, I think it's a reaction to 3.5e, where you had six or more (weapon, armor, natural armor, deflection, save bonus, primary ability score increase, and possibly other things like skill or secondary ability score).
Luck bonus, size bonus, dodge bonus, competence bonus, morale bonus, circumstance bonus, and of course it would be adjusted by different levels of cover. Many conditions affected your AC, and so would being flat-footed or flanked. You could fight defensively or charge to adjust your AC further, and each of these would be different if you had the right feats. And of course, if your Dexterity score happened to change because you got a ring, gloves, or other items... Or Cat's Grace... Or hit by ability drain or level drain... Then you would need to recalculate ALL of these.
For starters, I hate the Gygax style game of every two steps pain, no magic, no loot gaming. People come to D&D to live a fantasy, some people want to play a power fantasy, I let them. To balance it out I give them harder monsters, with plenty of lead up and clues on how to win. I encourage smart game play, and I do not withhold valuable loot. I also use random loot tables, and even some old 2nd edition material to fluff up loot some times.
The challenge isn't how tough the DM makes the player experience, it's how awesome and hard a good raiding experience can be. It's like a video game, you don't withhold gains, you make the challenge harder and more interesting.
The problem with bonus stacking isn't actually with its power level, it's that it's boring to have to add a half dozen to a dozen items, all of which have really bland effects, to keep up with the power level.
If you are looking for a way to limit magic I would have most potions have an expiration date unless they were in a special container and or in a special container in a container that protects them from environmental effects. This would mean for healing they party had to pick herbs and make potions or rely on wands, staffs, rods (in the most part) for healing as well as have the players do more RP finding interesting herbs and substances and then creating ways to try and achieve the affect they were after (it is not just throw herb(s) into pot, boil and then put into flask but a multi step process that once the detail is worked out the GM can then have you roll and not go over the process again. Note this is not for all groups)
Maybe it's just because I had to do it for work for years, but I don't find the idea of managing expiration dates fun. If you're trying to increase turnover of potions, I'd put in a harder encounter or two...and then prompt the party to use their potions. Whenever you feel that the party has too many potions or you want them to have to replenish stock, buff a few encounters and they'll use them. Or harass them during rests so they have to use potions instead of Hit Dice.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Just make potions harder to buy.
Limit them by location. Some ingredients are harder or easier to find by the area your in.
Most potions should not even be available, the common ones sure like healing, but not the all of them.
It depends on what you mean by inventory management? It is simple to say this potion last for 7 days just like you have abilities that recharge after a short or long rest.
Note: I have also played in and seen games that do not like this and are more like an author or director " rpg game".
In general I do not design encounters thinking the party has too much of X and I want to reduce that for some reason (drama, what I feel is too much X). I have seen people say that want to design encounters so the party has taken 60% damage before the creature dead and others like that. To them I say what if the party enters into the combat less then 60% HP or can the party damage themselves and kill the creature? I do understand that some think that damage is drama and a fight cannot be dramatic if PC's do not enter into some "red" HP zone, but I am not one of them.
I can also see a problem with too many potions with limited time span, for example the party finds a large group of herbs and can make 100 potions of Red Star Flower healing (4d10) that last for 7 days. I think most people would find that problematic in their games based on how I have seen 5e deals with magic items in general. Note: if your 5e game deals a lot of damage all the time then your play style might require this level of healing (as well as a general adjustment in healing spell power)...again this is not the default in 5e as I have seen playing and reading books.
Oh no, it's the goodberry storage thread all over again
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
If you're not interested in limiting their stock of potions...why bother with expiry dates then? It's just more bookkeeping.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
As a player I use a healing potion as a backup to a real healer.
Something to use if you can not get to the healer. Or your out alone.
A poison antidote is the same for me.
Party: Look, we'd like to help, but we have to get back to town within the next three hours
NPC: Why?
Party: That's when the magic shop puts out their marked-down potions that are about to go bad
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You can deal with consumables and limited-use items in a similar way as attunement: limit the number that can be used per day. Or make activating them cost a resource, such as hit dice.
Explosions!!!!!
Wonderful!!!!
Which reminds me of something I did on my gnome once. Using a DM's Homebrew ring that was based on old video games allowing you to have an extra life. Needed mushrooms to recharge it.
Dimension Door and a bag of 10 Gnomengarde grenades.
Do the math... ancient red dragon stood no chance for the teleport from one foot to his head.
When I have played in games that provide means to make potions that have an meaningful effect there is often a need to provide some balancing feature (rules) also if you are hunting for materials to make things it can provide RP outlets. I agree that everyone does not like this style of play and that it can be pushed to extremes.
I am also not saying having some potion limiting features means I am for (or against) limits on all potions. I say this because that has been put forth by posters in the past. For example I do not think a potion should give the drinker the same abilities as a staff of the magi for 1 hour or even all for all spells to be put into potion form.
Also in the past when people have talked about using attunement to limit magic items it is almost always accompanied by limiting all magic items in the game and or setting. Again I have played in games where there have been a lot of magic items and very few the problems I have seen is when the GM and or players are playing one style in the other game and when GM's tend to be directors and or authors vs GM's.
Yes potions are a cheep limited resource not permanently stable items like a magic sword or staff tends to be.
I would default to a carrot method for getting players to proactively use their potions, not a stick method. A low-impact tweak could be, if you drink a fresh potion, you get some temporary hit points on top of the normal effect of the potion. Like 2d4 maybe. But stale potions don't give you that.
I mean, I don't perceive there to be a problem with potions myself. But if I did.