While I will forever applaud WOTC for making a more inclusive place for gaming and taking a stand against racism, sexism, homophobia, and transphobia I do not think I will be continuing to support them financially if they plan to stifle and steal from independent creators. There are many games out there. Lets go out and support them.
1) A journalist on record citing exact clauses with numerous independent sources verifying parts of it, including Kickstarter's Jon Ritter, Director of Games. 2) Fit a trend of comments and behaviour seen from Hasbro and WotC regarding the future of D&D 3) Even if unfounded, deserve to treated as a serious threat against the community and market as a whole unless and until proven otherwise. 4) Is now subject for a formal request for comment from at least one law firm representing 2 third party publishers as well as a warning of potential litigation in response.
All of these pieces of evidence are circumstantial and different sources repeating what someone else says doesn't necessarily mean that they are verifying it, merely that they are stating what those other sources said. Even if other people have verified parts of it, that doesn't mean they are accurate. All humans make mistakes, and one of the many problems with anonymous sources is that they can provide the same information to different people, and it will look like multiple people have different sources echoing the same thing.
I do not think that word means what you think it means - Inigio Montoya
That the claims have been independently corroborated in part lends a lot of credibility to the value of those statements. And again, if Kickstarter is willing to go on record confirming they did negotiate a reduced fee for creators, something no one would would have assumed prior to this, also points to the genuine article. Gizmodo has a draft, maybe early and it has since been revised, but by all signs a valid copy of what was going to be 1.1. That it is not "circumstantial", that is proof that points directly to WotC since only WotC and Kickstarter would have been privy to those talks.
But hey, this just reads more of the "I don't trust the media" line I see from reality deniers all the time.
Also, you can't disprove everything. Yes, these rumors should be treated seriously (and they are), but the notion that facts are facts until they are 100% disproved just doesn't really make sense. Not to mention the fact that a lot of people are treating this as much more than a "serious threat".
Uh... what? I am trying to disprove nothing, you are the one casting aspersions when we see a pattern of behaviour, consistent with each other and are expressing obvious disgust, anger, distrust and fear over what amounts to a hostile threat from WotC. WotC has the means to solve this though I am aware that the machinations of corporations run slow so no official comment will be immediately forthcoming.
Your fourth point is one I've seen repeated a lot, but it doesn't really seem to make a lot of sense (to me at least). As I explained multiple times in the thread linked above, Wizards of the Coast has been quite transparent on this. And them not responding to requests for information about their future private business plans is typical. Just because a company doesn't deny something doesn't mean it's true.
No one is implying that WotC has the obligation to state their intentions, however they would be blind not to notice the very large stinker floating in their end of the pool. And more people are commenting on it. IGN picked it up today. More media outlets will run the story, fueling the reactions. They can remain in silence and be damned by it, or they put out a statement to calm the flames. Or they can own it, and deal with the backlash now in hopes it blows over before OneD&D launches
Also, you don't need to believe the leaked 1.1 draft is accurate to object to these moves. In their own official post, they confirm that they plan to 'update' the OGL with more restrictive terms. They specifically indicate that they plan to restrict third-party content to "printed media and static electronic files," that other forms of media will be covered by other licenses, and that revenue-reporting and royalties will be imposed on some creators. This all implicitly confirms their plan to "deauthorize" the current OGL, because otherwise there would be no way for them to enforce this "update."
I'm just a player. But I've bought as much 3rd party materials as official D&D material so this *really* bothers me. Personally, I think a lot of this material has helped D&D not just survive bad times but flourish now.
You have to wonder if the pittance they will make off of this destruction of the 3rd party ecosystem is worth the bad PR this is already creating. Also wondering how this affects all the live-play podcasts and streams which seem to now be on shakier grounds for generating income. It would *really* suck to kill the golden goose of all these shows giving them free publicity and drawing all kinds of new people into the shows.
Certainly making me rethink my D&D Beyond subscription level as it comes up soon.
I'd implore Hasbro to rethink the pieces we've read, and am *really* suspect about what we pieces we haven't yet.
I think people, players and developers alike should be sure to let Hasbro know what they think about this new licensing agreement.
There is also a question I would like to raise and that can bring a few headaches to Wizards.
1 - Under EU Law it will be very difficult for wizards to enforce the new OGL to any content other than the one for new content.
Microsoft, Google, Facebook and others have tried similar moves in the past and we're heavily fined by EU. Even last August Microsoft was fined by violating Anti trust laws.
There is also a question I would like to raise and that can bring a few headaches to Wizards.
1 - Under EU Law it will be very difficult for wizards to enforce the new OGL to any content other than the one for new content.
Microsoft, Google, Facebook and others have tried similar moves in the past and we're heavily fined by EU. Even last August Microsoft was fined by violating Anti trust laws.
I wonder what the EU would think about the part of the license that grants Wizards free license to use and monetize any 3rd party content that is created. (In my view, this is essentially theft, although it could also be viewed as reciprocal. "You can use our (Wizards') stuff for free and make money off of it, so we can use your stuff, too." The problem with that view is YOUR use of Wizards' IP wouldn't be royalty-free, while THEIR use of YOUR IP *would* be royalty-free, according to the leaked OGL 1.1.) As far as I can tell, this is simply evidence of moral rot in the company, and it should be excised.
Also, you don't need to believe the leaked 1.1 draft is accurate to object to these moves. In their own official post, they confirm that they plan to 'update' the OGL with more restrictive terms. They specifically indicate that they plan to restrict third-party content to "printed media and static electronic files," that other forms of media will be covered by other licenses, and that revenue-reporting and royalties will be imposed on some creators. This all implicitly confirms their plan to "deauthorize" the current OGL, because otherwise there would be no way for them to enforce this "update."
Well, they could simply put the new SRD (when it comes out) under those terms -- except people would likely continue to just use the 5e SRD in that case.
For context, I am a DM that has purchased the majority of published material and sometimes multiple electronic copies of that material to support my players' campaign on various VTTs. I have done so happily as I share in the enthusiasm of my players and I have been a fan of DnD in its various iterations from its AD&D and BECMI roots right up to the latest edition. I was also initially enthusiastic about the promise with OneDnD. However, that enthusiasm has now abruptly ended. At the conclusion of my most recent campaign, I will be ending my DnD beyond subscription and from this day forward I will no longer purchase any more WotC published DnD material (physical or electronic). However, I will be more than happy to provide my business to my favorite 3rd party publishers which will provide some modicum of assistance for them to fight this ethically dubious and legally tenuous effort to end the existing OGL.
The updated OGL (which is anything but open) shows that WotC has forgotten the lessons of the past with the 4e and the GSL and the negative impact it had on their brand. It also shows that they forgotten who has had a clear and significant impact on the growth of their brand.
Additionally, I can not support Hasbro's insistence on expanding their monetization of the brand into what will not doubt include predatory microtransactions. This will directly and negatively impact my players so I will not subject them to this practice going forward.
I am greatly disappointed in Hasbro/WotC's direction on these matters. As I said, I have been a longtime DnD enthusiast, but if WotC continues in this direction, it will be the first time in just over 4 decades that I will not purchase the newest versions of the rulesets, supplements and adventures for DnD.
I for one hope WotC doesn't change a thing and continue on with the leak.. AJ Picket has completely noped out of creating D&D content anymore. Lets hope we can see some mainline publishers leave as well. This should be the impetus to create multiple new OGL's for new game systems and we can start the process of shedding WotC content. It has not been great for gaming to be concentrated in one companies hands because they will do what they are doing now.
It will be better for gaming as WotC commits brand seppuku.
Also, you don't need to believe the leaked 1.1 draft is accurate to object to these moves. In their own official post, they confirm that they plan to 'update' the OGL with more restrictive terms. They specifically indicate that they plan to restrict third-party content to "printed media and static electronic files," that other forms of media will be covered by other licenses, and that revenue-reporting and royalties will be imposed on some creators. This all implicitly confirms their plan to "deauthorize" the current OGL, because otherwise there would be no way for them to enforce this "update."
As I understand it (which I admit is limited to how I understand other people understanding it), the bolded text is a lie. Updating the OGL for 1D&D doesn't necessarily "deauthorize" the current OGL. They can make a new agreement for new editions without removing the old agreement for old editions. The post in question (and, I believe, any of the events that caused it) didn't make any suggestions that the updates to the OGL would apply to 5e.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I've already seen videos from a half dozen creators basically stating change to this document or not; they're done with WOTC and D&D, as in: they are shifting their entire business model to avoid this legal quagmire since it's just the smart move to take.
Ive been a GM and Player for most of my life. I make a comfortable living and I put that money back into this hobby in the form of tools to help myself and my players better enjoy themselves. This new OGL will make me reconsider where I spend my money going forward. I will not support such blatantly hostile and anti-consumer business practices.
How about instead of screaming that the sky is falling and the game is ruined we actually wait and see what the actual OGL is. no one has read this supposed leak. it is not posted fully anywhere, which just seems suspicious to me.
We have absolutely no way of knowing if it's the document WOTC will eventually use or not
While this is true, WotC/Hasbro have not (yet) released any official or unofficial statement (AFAIK) denying the veracity of this leaked draft, so at the very least if it is real then even if it's not the final version, it does give us a great deal of insight into their plans, and we should let them know how we feel about what's in this draft so that they (hopefully) can take that in to account before they finalize the OGL 1.1.
Side note - it's hilarious but apparently on the D&D Discord they have banned all talk on the subject because it violates either the policy against spreading false information OR the policy against spreading IP that was illegally obtained, but they won't say which policy even though they are mutually exclusive. Either it is not accurate and spreading false info or it's accurate and is being spread illegally - but we won't tell you which! Schrodinger's OGL. LOL!
How about I say I am concerned about the leaked language of the OGL 1.1, I am concerned that the CEO's of both Hasbro and Wizard's claim that the hobby of dungeons and dragons is under-monetized when compared to video games completely ignoring the depth and quality of the product, they are putting out for TTRPG is lacking in creativity, in actual content and should never be compared to video games. I am concerned that now they on some level view us homebrew DM's as free resource for them to cherry pick from. I am concerned that their blatant money grab is going adversely affect the entire industry that owes its very existence to OGL 1.0a. I am concerned that Hasbro's stock has dropped 40 percent over the last year and that they are going to make a huge mistake is going to kill the game i love and have loved for 42 years.
The sky is not falling yet but I am damn well allowed to be concerned
How about I say I am concerned about the leaked language of the OGL 1.1, I am concerned that the CEO's of both Hasbro and Wizard's claim that the hobby of dungeons and dragons is under-monetized when compared to video games completely ignoring the depth and quality of the product, they are putting out for TTRPG is lacking in creativity, in actual content and should never be compared to video games. I am concerned that now they on some level view us homebrew DM's as free resource for them to cherry pick from. I am concerned that their blatant money grab is going adversely affect the entire industry that owes its very existence to OGL 1.0a. I am concerned that Hasbro's stock has dropped 40 percent over the last year and that they are going to make a huge mistake is going to kill the game i love and have loved for 42 years.
The sky is not falling yet but I am damn well allowed to be concerned
You are taking quite the short view on this that WotC now is a net good for D&D - I don't believe that at all now, maybe 5 years ago but not today not today by a long shot.
WotC is putting out extremely sanitized and frankly boring content now to try to reduce any possible harm to cater to 8 year olds. WotC is behaving like the blue hairs of the satanic panic but are going very hard on removing content.
The backlash on the license can be good if WotC sticks to its guns and doesn't change anything. We might even get lucky and get a new better game generated by publishers who have to put their heads together to survive the change. Necessity is the mother of invent, we might get a better D&D for instance if Kobold Press, Goodman, Necrotic Gnome, Chaosium and Troll Lords band together to create a new RPG license for instance.
I have a feeling the new license will have an incredibly positive net positive on gaming by creating new games and removing the population from one publisher. The current popularity of D&D is not healthy for fantasy RPGs.
Terrifying really. I have enjoyed so much including all the honebrew in my game generated in the community.
Better go download all the pdfs from DMs Guild before they become "delegitimised".
Who knew Hasbro / WOTC were the BBEG all along and D&D was just the friends we made along the way.
This leak has shattered my confidence that 6e(oneD&D) is anything worth investing in and makes me very worried that my current 5e games won't continue.
How about instead of screaming that the sky is falling and the game is ruined we actually wait and see what the actual OGL is. no one has read this supposed leak. it is not posted fully anywhere, which just seems suspicious to me.
Multiple sources have backed up parts of the leaked document, if you don't want to discuss the leaked content that's a fine opinion. But people aren't being unreasonable by trusting those sources, especially given we know Hasbro had a whole investor meeting about how under monetized D&D was, and doubly especially after all the iffy shit thats gone on with MTG these last few years.
I really don't understand what was broke here that needed fixing. WotC had record profits last year, and Hasbro has been in near constant growth till the pandemic hit... Why do they need to make the market landscape worse.
"I can understand why WotC would feel that they deserve a piece of the pie when Paizo and other publishers are using the OGL to create games that directlycompete with D&D as fantasy RPGs, instead of creating material for D&D (or using it to create games in genres that D&D doesn't cover). I don't know what the best way to handle this would be. I think it's fair for WotC to ask for royalties in such cases, as it amounts to lost business for them,"
The thing is though, they're not DIRECTLY competing with D&D. Anyone playing PF is playing PF because they like the way that system works, and they don't like D&D's system, am I wrong?
This isn't Coca Cola shutting down someone who's stolen their secret recipe and is selling literally the same product with a different name for a few cents less. This is more akin to McDonald's shutting down Five Guys and Shake Shack for selling burgers.
If Hasbro/WotC sues/squeezes companies like Paizo into oblivion, all those PF players aren't just going to say "Welp, the system we loved has been decimated, let's go spend our money on this thing we didn't like, made by the guys who ruined our favorite hobby."
Nobody's playing PF because they don't know about D&D. It's literally the biggest, most well recognized entity in the TTRPG world. PF players are playing it because it gives them something that D&D doesn't offer.
Pathfinder is definitely directly competing with D&D, as it delivers the same kind of product as D&D does, and is built on the D&D game system developed by WotC and made available under the OGL. It's not like it's a completely different system, like Savage Worlds, that both offer fantasy games. D&D and Savage Worlds Fantasy Companion are "two restaurants that are similar in that they both sell burgers". D&D and Pathfinder are much more similar than that.
That said, I'm not saying I support WotC squeezing Paizo into oblivion, but I can understand why they feel entitled to royalties when it comes to Pathfinder. I find seeking royalties for publishers who are producing materials that support D&D more objectionable.
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While I will forever applaud WOTC for making a more inclusive place for gaming and taking a stand against racism, sexism, homophobia, and transphobia I do not think I will be continuing to support them financially if they plan to stifle and steal from independent creators. There are many games out there. Lets go out and support them.
I do not think that word means what you think it means - Inigio Montoya
That the claims have been independently corroborated in part lends a lot of credibility to the value of those statements. And again, if Kickstarter is willing to go on record confirming they did negotiate a reduced fee for creators, something no one would would have assumed prior to this, also points to the genuine article. Gizmodo has a draft, maybe early and it has since been revised, but by all signs a valid copy of what was going to be 1.1. That it is not "circumstantial", that is proof that points directly to WotC since only WotC and Kickstarter would have been privy to those talks.
But hey, this just reads more of the "I don't trust the media" line I see from reality deniers all the time.
Uh... what? I am trying to disprove nothing, you are the one casting aspersions when we see a pattern of behaviour, consistent with each other and are expressing obvious disgust, anger, distrust and fear over what amounts to a hostile threat from WotC. WotC has the means to solve this though I am aware that the machinations of corporations run slow so no official comment will be immediately forthcoming.
A lawyer representing clients materially threatened by reported changes to a license they, in good faith, operated under asks the issuer of that license to verify that rumor. That doesnt make sense to you? Heck, read the letter yourself: https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/10496c9/a_letter_sent_by_a_genuine_lawyer_to_wizards/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
No one is implying that WotC has the obligation to state their intentions, however they would be blind not to notice the very large stinker floating in their end of the pool. And more people are commenting on it. IGN picked it up today. More media outlets will run the story, fueling the reactions. They can remain in silence and be damned by it, or they put out a statement to calm the flames. Or they can own it, and deal with the backlash now in hopes it blows over before OneD&D launches
Also, you don't need to believe the leaked 1.1 draft is accurate to object to these moves. In their own official post, they confirm that they plan to 'update' the OGL with more restrictive terms. They specifically indicate that they plan to restrict third-party content to "printed media and static electronic files," that other forms of media will be covered by other licenses, and that revenue-reporting and royalties will be imposed on some creators. This all implicitly confirms their plan to "deauthorize" the current OGL, because otherwise there would be no way for them to enforce this "update."
WOTC continues to drain the community of every cent possible like a banking vampire
I'm just a player. But I've bought as much 3rd party materials as official D&D material so this *really* bothers me. Personally, I think a lot of this material has helped D&D not just survive bad times but flourish now.
You have to wonder if the pittance they will make off of this destruction of the 3rd party ecosystem is worth the bad PR this is already creating. Also wondering how this affects all the live-play podcasts and streams which seem to now be on shakier grounds for generating income. It would *really* suck to kill the golden goose of all these shows giving them free publicity and drawing all kinds of new people into the shows.
Certainly making me rethink my D&D Beyond subscription level as it comes up soon.
I'd implore Hasbro to rethink the pieces we've read, and am *really* suspect about what we pieces we haven't yet.
I think people, players and developers alike should be sure to let Hasbro know what they think about this new licensing agreement.
There is also a question I would like to raise and that can bring a few headaches to Wizards.
1 - Under EU Law it will be very difficult for wizards to enforce the new OGL to any content other than the one for new content.
Microsoft, Google, Facebook and others have tried similar moves in the past and we're heavily fined by EU. Even last August Microsoft was fined by violating Anti trust laws.
I wonder what the EU would think about the part of the license that grants Wizards free license to use and monetize any 3rd party content that is created. (In my view, this is essentially theft, although it could also be viewed as reciprocal. "You can use our (Wizards') stuff for free and make money off of it, so we can use your stuff, too." The problem with that view is YOUR use of Wizards' IP wouldn't be royalty-free, while THEIR use of YOUR IP *would* be royalty-free, according to the leaked OGL 1.1.) As far as I can tell, this is simply evidence of moral rot in the company, and it should be excised.
Well, they could simply put the new SRD (when it comes out) under those terms -- except people would likely continue to just use the 5e SRD in that case.
For context, I am a DM that has purchased the majority of published material and sometimes multiple electronic copies of that material to support my players' campaign on various VTTs. I have done so happily as I share in the enthusiasm of my players and I have been a fan of DnD in its various iterations from its AD&D and BECMI roots right up to the latest edition. I was also initially enthusiastic about the promise with OneDnD. However, that enthusiasm has now abruptly ended. At the conclusion of my most recent campaign, I will be ending my DnD beyond subscription and from this day forward I will no longer purchase any more WotC published DnD material (physical or electronic). However, I will be more than happy to provide my business to my favorite 3rd party publishers which will provide some modicum of assistance for them to fight this ethically dubious and legally tenuous effort to end the existing OGL.
The updated OGL (which is anything but open) shows that WotC has forgotten the lessons of the past with the 4e and the GSL and the negative impact it had on their brand. It also shows that they forgotten who has had a clear and significant impact on the growth of their brand.
Additionally, I can not support Hasbro's insistence on expanding their monetization of the brand into what will not doubt include predatory microtransactions. This will directly and negatively impact my players so I will not subject them to this practice going forward.
I am greatly disappointed in Hasbro/WotC's direction on these matters. As I said, I have been a longtime DnD enthusiast, but if WotC continues in this direction, it will be the first time in just over 4 decades that I will not purchase the newest versions of the rulesets, supplements and adventures for DnD.
I for one hope WotC doesn't change a thing and continue on with the leak.. AJ Picket has completely noped out of creating D&D content anymore. Lets hope we can see some mainline publishers leave as well. This should be the impetus to create multiple new OGL's for new game systems and we can start the process of shedding WotC content. It has not been great for gaming to be concentrated in one companies hands because they will do what they are doing now.
It will be better for gaming as WotC commits brand seppuku.
As I understand it (which I admit is limited to how I understand other people understanding it), the bolded text is a lie. Updating the OGL for 1D&D doesn't necessarily "deauthorize" the current OGL. They can make a new agreement for new editions without removing the old agreement for old editions. The post in question (and, I believe, any of the events that caused it) didn't make any suggestions that the updates to the OGL would apply to 5e.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Begun, the exodus has...
I've already seen videos from a half dozen creators basically stating change to this document or not; they're done with WOTC and D&D, as in: they are shifting their entire business model to avoid this legal quagmire since it's just the smart move to take.
Ive been a GM and Player for most of my life. I make a comfortable living and I put that money back into this hobby in the form of tools to help myself and my players better enjoy themselves. This new OGL will make me reconsider where I spend my money going forward. I will not support such blatantly hostile and anti-consumer business practices.
How about instead of screaming that the sky is falling and the game is ruined we actually wait and see what the actual OGL is. no one has read this supposed leak. it is not posted fully anywhere, which just seems suspicious to me.
Same.
How about I say I am concerned about the leaked language of the OGL 1.1, I am concerned that the CEO's of both Hasbro and Wizard's claim that the hobby of dungeons and dragons is under-monetized when compared to video games completely ignoring the depth and quality of the product, they are putting out for TTRPG is lacking in creativity, in actual content and should never be compared to video games. I am concerned that now they on some level view us homebrew DM's as free resource for them to cherry pick from. I am concerned that their blatant money grab is going adversely affect the entire industry that owes its very existence to OGL 1.0a. I am concerned that Hasbro's stock has dropped 40 percent over the last year and that they are going to make a huge mistake is going to kill the game i love and have loved for 42 years.
The sky is not falling yet but I am damn well allowed to be concerned
You are taking quite the short view on this that WotC now is a net good for D&D - I don't believe that at all now, maybe 5 years ago but not today not today by a long shot.
WotC is putting out extremely sanitized and frankly boring content now to try to reduce any possible harm to cater to 8 year olds. WotC is behaving like the blue hairs of the satanic panic but are going very hard on removing content.
The backlash on the license can be good if WotC sticks to its guns and doesn't change anything. We might even get lucky and get a new better game generated by publishers who have to put their heads together to survive the change. Necessity is the mother of invent, we might get a better D&D for instance if Kobold Press, Goodman, Necrotic Gnome, Chaosium and Troll Lords band together to create a new RPG license for instance.
I have a feeling the new license will have an incredibly positive net positive on gaming by creating new games and removing the population from one publisher. The current popularity of D&D is not healthy for fantasy RPGs.
Terrifying really. I have enjoyed so much including all the honebrew in my game generated in the community.
Better go download all the pdfs from DMs Guild before they become "delegitimised".
Who knew Hasbro / WOTC were the BBEG all along and D&D was just the friends we made along the way.
This leak has shattered my confidence that 6e(oneD&D) is anything worth investing in and makes me very worried that my current 5e games won't continue.
How did it come to this?
Multiple sources have backed up parts of the leaked document, if you don't want to discuss the leaked content that's a fine opinion. But people aren't being unreasonable by trusting those sources, especially given we know Hasbro had a whole investor meeting about how under monetized D&D was, and doubly especially after all the iffy shit thats gone on with MTG these last few years.
Pathfinder is definitely directly competing with D&D, as it delivers the same kind of product as D&D does, and is built on the D&D game system developed by WotC and made available under the OGL. It's not like it's a completely different system, like Savage Worlds, that both offer fantasy games. D&D and Savage Worlds Fantasy Companion are "two restaurants that are similar in that they both sell burgers". D&D and Pathfinder are much more similar than that.
That said, I'm not saying I support WotC squeezing Paizo into oblivion, but I can understand why they feel entitled to royalties when it comes to Pathfinder. I find seeking royalties for publishers who are producing materials that support D&D more objectionable.