The very fact that they wanted to turn dnd into a lifestyle brand shows just how far removed the execs are from the game and the culture around it.
They failed to understand that d&d already is as close to being a lifestyle as it can possibly be. In that single phrase they completely ignored decades in which si many of us were mocked, ignored or bullied for being geeks and nerds.. The satanic panic, the social context that saw so many of us shunned or marginalised for liking and playing games..
Yet we're still here, and we really don't need a brand manager to tell us that what we have had for the last few decades was a lifestyle.
There's families where up to 3 generations of people play RPGs in general, and DnD in particular. Many of us who have the means she understand the business world had accepted that they're VTT would have been an expensive gift to give ourselves and many were ready for it...
But both the extent of what they plan and the brazen, culpable, blindness towards what actually keeps the game moving has been severe enough to kill a community stone dead. Sure, we'll still play the game... But we'll be invisible to them
They will probably still turn a profit, because a lot of people don't know better, but it will have a short run and ultimately not be worth the investment....
Too think that all of this is self inflicted is just sad
WoTC is not a unique challenge but a symptom of the ever growing corporate toxic expanse. The current leadership Cynthia Williams, is from the Amazon and Microsoft proving grounds. All the evidence of this shift were their within corporate expectations. I do enjoy the positive discourse and all the really insightful ideas being put in place as new offerings by the 3rd party community. Playing this game since I was 9 I have watched the TSR rise and fall, the WoTC retail expanse and the eventual rise of 5e. DND will be around forever the question is what state will be in. I tend to agree with most of the OGL commentary in the thread until we see the final draft speculation can be a tenuous minefield at best. Hope everyone is staying safe and try to play a game its good for the brain. 😃🔮✨
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
We are a community of creators bringing you video and audio related TTRPG content related to Dungeons and Dragons 5e and other table top gaming systems. Our current channel provides shows related on how to play, in studio productions and other creative content. Hope you enjoy and feel free to contact us with any questions. Thank you for any and all support feel free to email me with any questions or comments.
Although this statement was better than the childish first post, you still lie to us in the beginning. Drafts don't go out with contracts to sign within a week and term sheets. This is an attempt to control the narrative, buy time, and get people to return to D&D Beyond to participate in the survey. A closed survey run by a group many of us no longer trust.
I'm getting strong Southpark "we're sorry" vibes from WotC and how do they not see that these words are hollow without tangible effort/proof that we can see??
The problem is still here, with their stated goals: "...in support of our core goals of protecting and cultivating an inclusive play environment and limiting the OGL to TTRPGs". (emphasis mine)
Inclusivity alone wouldn't be nearly enough to make this happen; they don't want competition. They don't want Pathfinder 2e (or another TTRPG) to gain any market share this time around. I believe that's the main reason they started this mess in the first place, and I guarantee the supposedly open conversation won't go anywhere near this subject.
They may have learned a lesson about the benefits other content creators are bringing them, and that's great. They're still going to try to monopolize the space, because Corporate minds really don't think about the long term.
The update's still too little, too late. Leave the license alone - better yet, make it even stronger to prevent misguided decisions in the future.
Something to keep in mind about this survey: It's individual feedback. This is a classic tactic to try and exploit the differences of people's opinions and understanding of the situation.
If a anti-consumer tactic is something that a majority of people don't include in the feedback- either because: They don't care about that specific thing/ agree with Wizards about that specific thing; They don't understant the importance of that specific topic, and don't realise the impact it would have; Aren't specifically asked about it in the feedback, and don't think to highlight it in additional feedback boxes - They're going to implement that tactic, on the basis that "only a few people complained about it" or "opinions were mixed, so we went with our judgement".
I hate to go all Union on everyone, but our best move is to gather, lay out, and promote access to a single source that both documents and explains all of the anti-consumer decisions WotC were trying to make, which everyone can reference when they fill out the feedback.
As I mentioned, I know some people will not agree with everything, and think "I'm not going to negatively review this because I think WotC are in the right to do it". I implore those of you with such ideals that, while they are as valid as anyone's ideals, this is not a ideological situation. This is a conflict of business between a service/product provider and their customers. The right move, as customers, is to fight for the best deal, e.i. the most value at the lowest cost. It's not a question of greed or underhandedness, it is a question of survival, as the provider is, unquestionably, trying to sell you the least value at the highest cost. You cannot give a business, especially a Billion Dollar Corporation, an inch in the spirit of being "fair" or "generous" in regards to your own ideals, because in the eyes of Hasbro, what is "unfair" is that you haven't given them all your money yet, and what is "generous" is that you get anything from them at all for your money. Protect yourself, which protects other consumers.
If you really believe that, say, WotC NEEDS to charge royalties from 3rd Party companies, then they would simply do it. If they need to, they couldn't afford not to, no matter what feedback they get. However, if they don't need to, and are just being greedy, then they'll back off if effectively challenged. When money gets put in the pockets of those at the top, it is ALWAYS those at the bottom who end up paying for it, and I mean that in terms of business transactions, not just in wealth distribution. If Hasbro demand royalties, the 3rd party companies will put up their prices to offset the cost. If they do that, Hasbro will feel justified in putting up their own costs, to match the market: We pay more for the same content. If you don't care because you can afford it, well that's fantastic that you can afford it, I imagine your games are great with access to more books and accessories, I'm pleasantly jealous! But you should still care, because... Think of it like this: Just because you have a 150 HP, doesn't mean the bandit didn't stab you for 4 damage. Sure, it's nothing to you, but it's the principle, right? It's the insult.
I dunno, I'm tired, and I think I might have lost the thread of this comment at some point. I just honestly believe that if this community continues to pull together as a positive force (something I would never have guessed would happen, after years of seeing similar things getting forgotten about by divided audiences in other industries) that we can prevent this hobby, which is honestly my favourite, from becoming something that no longer provides the amazing experiences I, and I'm sure many of us, deeply treasure.
Just something I think we should all stop an consider. WotC's management like most corporate leaders are narcissists and you need to understand clearly what an apology is and is not in the eyes of a narcissist: (I have modified the text from psychcentral.com).
An apology to WotC management means:
Look how good WotC is.
Now you owe WotC forgiveness.
We wont talk about this again.
Our relationship is still on WotC's Management's terms, but they appear to care about your feelings.
Do not be fooled by WotC Management's apology. Realize that the relationship is no different than it was before the apology you just now have more confusion on your plate (think, cognitive dissonance). You believe that maybe they mean their sorry or that they wont do whatever it was they did again. But, rest assured, the WotC Management uses an apology as part of the cycle of abuse.
When you receive an apology from a narcissist you believe at least four things:
WotC's Management is truly sorry.
WotC's Management wont do it again.
WotC's Management sees what WotC's Management did as wrong.
Things will be better in your relationship with WotC's Management.
Pay attention here. These four things will not happen. This is the truth:
WotC's Management is not truly sorry; WotC's Management is managing your relationship and managing WotC's appearance to others.
WotC's Management will do the exact same thing again, and again. WotC's Management just believes they are getting themselves off the hook for doing something wrong that got noticed.
WotC's Management doesnt care how their behavior has impacted you, and they never will. WotC's Management just knows that by apologizing they appear to care and they now has a trump card or get out of jail free card to use if you try to hold them accountable for their behavior.
Things will remain the same in the relationship.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"When truth presents itself, the wise person see the light, takes it in, and makes adjustments. The fool tries to adjust the truth so he does not have to adjust to it." ~ Henry Cloud #ORC #OpenDND
Just something I think we should all stop an consider. WotC's management like most corporate leaders are narcissists and you need to understand clearly what an apology is and is not in the eyes of a narcissist: (I have modified the text from psychcentral.com).
None of which is terribly relevant, because we have clear benchmarks for whether behavior has improved: the released document. If it's just as bad as before, they're gaslighting us; if it's improved, they might be engaged in good faith negotiation. The whole point of enforceable contracts is to make it less important whether the person you're negotiating with is actually honest and trustworthy.
I wonder if they pay as little attention to this forum as they do their surveys--which includes the new survey they'll "use to gather community feedback on the new OGL changes:"
To all those who haven't heard, new unconfirmed rumours from Hos of Dungeon Scribe. Hasbro/WotC are planning to overhaul D&D Beyon in the following ways:
- increase higher tier subscription to $30 a month.
- Make homebrew creation tools inaccessible for lower tiers.
- Creating AI-DMs, that produce algorithm-based stories and judgements for Players.
The rumours state they are also continuing forward with de-authorising the OGL1.0a.
$30 a month is probably reaching a point where it's going to drive players away from digital and into PnP, or outright away. If anything it's going to push those who do stick with D&D into homebrew and 3pp.
AI DMs while I can see a need for this, I have a feeling, that things are going to be heavily railroaded as a result, or end up playing more like a wargame.
Deauthorizing of 1.0a we knew they were going to keep trying that, and I have a feeling outside of brute forcing, or trickery, they're just going to keep it up until the matter is taken to court, and that is still no gurantee if people voluntarily give up their rights.
It's enough that I'm already regretting purchasing so many books in the DNDBeyond marketplace. I'm not a particularly price-sensitive consumer; I have a decent income, and games are really the only hobby I spend money on, so I spend a fair amount of money on them. I've spent $330 on marketplace items, in addition to the subscription cost, and that's mainly just to share them with my players. So in effect, my average monthly expenditure on DNDBeyond has already been closer to $30 than to $5.99. And honestly, I can even imagine paying a $30/mo subscription fee for a more feature-rich game manager—i.e., one that includes a full suite of campaign management tools and a VTT. However, even I don't like the idea of paying $30/mo for a glorified character sheet manager. And I really don't like the idea that I'll have to decide between paying five times what I currently pay in subscription fees or losing the ability to share the library I've already spent hundreds of dollars on.
That feels extortionate—and, like many consumers, I'm willing to make some mathematically irrational choices when I feel badly treated. E.g., I once payed a termination fee to get out of a contract with a phone company after they deceptively increased charges on a 'bundle' plan, even though the cost of the termination fee plus the cost of new service with a different company was more expensive than waiting until the plan with the existing company expired to switch. I was willing to pay more overall in order to pay less to the company that I was mad at. And right now, I'm pricing out the prospect of switching to a new toolset and possibly a new system. I don't like the idea of having to start my collection over with a new vendor, but it's getting more appealing all the time.
Note they still seem adamant that there will be NO NEW CONTENT released under OGL 1.0a.
As soon as they publish that, I hope thousands, like me, produce and publish content under OGL 1.0a because OGL 1.0a is FORVER!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The age of OGL is over. The Time of the ORC has come!
The moment that WotC declares OGL 1.0a "de-authorized", "revoked" or any such nonsense is the moment I release as much content as possible under OGL 1.0a and say, "Sue me WotC". OGL1.0a cannot be revoked. If thousands of us do it, the countersuit will be a class action suit.
I wonder if they pay as little attention to this forum as they do their surveys--which includes the new survey they'll "use to gather community feedback on the new OGL changes:"
FYI, DnD_Shorts retracted that earlier tweet. He was wrong, they do read the surveys.
I wonder if they pay as little attention to this forum as they do their surveys--which includes the new survey they'll "use to gather community feedback on the new OGL changes:"
FYI, DnD_Shorts retracted that earlier tweet. He was wrong, they do read the surveys.
I don't believe it for a second.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The age of OGL is over. The Time of the ORC has come!
The moment that WotC declares OGL 1.0a "de-authorized", "revoked" or any such nonsense is the moment I release as much content as possible under OGL 1.0a and say, "Sue me WotC". OGL1.0a cannot be revoked. If thousands of us do it, the countersuit will be a class action suit.
The very fact that they wanted to turn dnd into a lifestyle brand shows just how far removed the execs are from the game and the culture around it.
They failed to understand that d&d already is as close to being a lifestyle as it can possibly be. In that single phrase they completely ignored decades in which si many of us were mocked, ignored or bullied for being geeks and nerds.. The satanic panic, the social context that saw so many of us shunned or marginalised for liking and playing games..
Yet we're still here, and we really don't need a brand manager to tell us that what we have had for the last few decades was a lifestyle.
There's families where up to 3 generations of people play RPGs in general, and DnD in particular. Many of us who have the means she understand the business world had accepted that they're VTT would have been an expensive gift to give ourselves and many were ready for it...
But both the extent of what they plan and the brazen, culpable, blindness towards what actually keeps the game moving has been severe enough to kill a community stone dead. Sure, we'll still play the game... But we'll be invisible to them
They will probably still turn a profit, because a lot of people don't know better, but it will have a short run and ultimately not be worth the investment....
Too think that all of this is self inflicted is just sad
WoTC is not a unique challenge but a symptom of the ever growing corporate toxic expanse. The current leadership Cynthia Williams, is from the Amazon and Microsoft proving grounds. All the evidence of this shift were their within corporate expectations. I do enjoy the positive discourse and all the really insightful ideas being put in place as new offerings by the 3rd party community. Playing this game since I was 9 I have watched the TSR rise and fall, the WoTC retail expanse and the eventual rise of 5e. DND will be around forever the question is what state will be in. I tend to agree with most of the OGL commentary in the thread until we see the final draft speculation can be a tenuous minefield at best. Hope everyone is staying safe and try to play a game its good for the brain. 😃🔮✨
We are a community of creators bringing you video and audio related TTRPG content related to Dungeons and Dragons 5e and other table top gaming systems. Our current channel provides shows related on how to play, in studio productions and other creative content. Hope you enjoy and feel free to contact us with any questions. Thank you for any and all support feel free to email me with any questions or comments.
Although this statement was better than the childish first post, you still lie to us in the beginning. Drafts don't go out with contracts to sign within a week and term sheets. This is an attempt to control the narrative, buy time, and get people to return to D&D Beyond to participate in the survey. A closed survey run by a group many of us no longer trust.
I'm getting strong Southpark "we're sorry" vibes from WotC and how do they not see that these words are hollow without tangible effort/proof that we can see??
The problem is still here, with their stated goals: "...in support of our core goals of protecting and cultivating an inclusive play environment and limiting the OGL to TTRPGs". (emphasis mine)
Inclusivity alone wouldn't be nearly enough to make this happen; they don't want competition. They don't want Pathfinder 2e (or another TTRPG) to gain any market share this time around. I believe that's the main reason they started this mess in the first place, and I guarantee the supposedly open conversation won't go anywhere near this subject.
They may have learned a lesson about the benefits other content creators are bringing them, and that's great. They're still going to try to monopolize the space, because Corporate minds really don't think about the long term.
The update's still too little, too late. Leave the license alone - better yet, make it even stronger to prevent misguided decisions in the future.
Hopefully it's not just a "We're sorry you were offended" but is also followed up with sincerity :-)
LOL that get's me every time!
For this to be appropriate to D&D Execs, they need to club the seal every time they say they are sorry.
Something to keep in mind about this survey: It's individual feedback. This is a classic tactic to try and exploit the differences of people's opinions and understanding of the situation.
If a anti-consumer tactic is something that a majority of people don't include in the feedback- either because: They don't care about that specific thing/ agree with Wizards about that specific thing; They don't understant the importance of that specific topic, and don't realise the impact it would have; Aren't specifically asked about it in the feedback, and don't think to highlight it in additional feedback boxes - They're going to implement that tactic, on the basis that "only a few people complained about it" or "opinions were mixed, so we went with our judgement".
I hate to go all Union on everyone, but our best move is to gather, lay out, and promote access to a single source that both documents and explains all of the anti-consumer decisions WotC were trying to make, which everyone can reference when they fill out the feedback.
As I mentioned, I know some people will not agree with everything, and think "I'm not going to negatively review this because I think WotC are in the right to do it". I implore those of you with such ideals that, while they are as valid as anyone's ideals, this is not a ideological situation. This is a conflict of business between a service/product provider and their customers. The right move, as customers, is to fight for the best deal, e.i. the most value at the lowest cost. It's not a question of greed or underhandedness, it is a question of survival, as the provider is, unquestionably, trying to sell you the least value at the highest cost. You cannot give a business, especially a Billion Dollar Corporation, an inch in the spirit of being "fair" or "generous" in regards to your own ideals, because in the eyes of Hasbro, what is "unfair" is that you haven't given them all your money yet, and what is "generous" is that you get anything from them at all for your money. Protect yourself, which protects other consumers.
If you really believe that, say, WotC NEEDS to charge royalties from 3rd Party companies, then they would simply do it. If they need to, they couldn't afford not to, no matter what feedback they get. However, if they don't need to, and are just being greedy, then they'll back off if effectively challenged. When money gets put in the pockets of those at the top, it is ALWAYS those at the bottom who end up paying for it, and I mean that in terms of business transactions, not just in wealth distribution. If Hasbro demand royalties, the 3rd party companies will put up their prices to offset the cost. If they do that, Hasbro will feel justified in putting up their own costs, to match the market: We pay more for the same content. If you don't care because you can afford it, well that's fantastic that you can afford it, I imagine your games are great with access to more books and accessories, I'm pleasantly jealous! But you should still care, because... Think of it like this: Just because you have a 150 HP, doesn't mean the bandit didn't stab you for 4 damage. Sure, it's nothing to you, but it's the principle, right? It's the insult.
I dunno, I'm tired, and I think I might have lost the thread of this comment at some point. I just honestly believe that if this community continues to pull together as a positive force (something I would never have guessed would happen, after years of seeing similar things getting forgotten about by divided audiences in other industries) that we can prevent this hobby, which is honestly my favourite, from becoming something that no longer provides the amazing experiences I, and I'm sure many of us, deeply treasure.
Just something I think we should all stop an consider. WotC's management like most corporate leaders are narcissists and you need to understand clearly what an apology is and is not in the eyes of a narcissist: (I have modified the text from psychcentral.com).
"When truth presents itself, the wise person see the light, takes it in, and makes adjustments. The fool tries to adjust the truth so he does not have to adjust to it." ~ Henry Cloud #ORC #OpenDND
Kyle, please Sir... stop the lies...
Peace be with you friend.
None of which is terribly relevant, because we have clear benchmarks for whether behavior has improved: the released document. If it's just as bad as before, they're gaslighting us; if it's improved, they might be engaged in good faith negotiation. The whole point of enforceable contracts is to make it less important whether the person you're negotiating with is actually honest and trustworthy.
I wonder if they pay as little attention to this forum as they do their surveys--which includes the new survey they'll "use to gather community feedback on the new OGL changes:"
It's enough that I'm already regretting purchasing so many books in the DNDBeyond marketplace. I'm not a particularly price-sensitive consumer; I have a decent income, and games are really the only hobby I spend money on, so I spend a fair amount of money on them. I've spent $330 on marketplace items, in addition to the subscription cost, and that's mainly just to share them with my players. So in effect, my average monthly expenditure on DNDBeyond has already been closer to $30 than to $5.99. And honestly, I can even imagine paying a $30/mo subscription fee for a more feature-rich game manager—i.e., one that includes a full suite of campaign management tools and a VTT. However, even I don't like the idea of paying $30/mo for a glorified character sheet manager. And I really don't like the idea that I'll have to decide between paying five times what I currently pay in subscription fees or losing the ability to share the library I've already spent hundreds of dollars on.
That feels extortionate—and, like many consumers, I'm willing to make some mathematically irrational choices when I feel badly treated. E.g., I once payed a termination fee to get out of a contract with a phone company after they deceptively increased charges on a 'bundle' plan, even though the cost of the termination fee plus the cost of new service with a different company was more expensive than waiting until the plan with the existing company expired to switch. I was willing to pay more overall in order to pay less to the company that I was mad at. And right now, I'm pricing out the prospect of switching to a new toolset and possibly a new system. I don't like the idea of having to start my collection over with a new vendor, but it's getting more appealing all the time.
Note they still seem adamant that there will be NO NEW CONTENT released under OGL 1.0a.
As soon as they publish that, I hope thousands, like me, produce and publish content under OGL 1.0a because OGL 1.0a is FORVER!
The age of OGL is over. The Time of the ORC has come!
The moment that WotC declares OGL 1.0a "de-authorized", "revoked" or any such nonsense is the moment I release as much content as possible under OGL 1.0a and say, "Sue me WotC". OGL1.0a cannot be revoked. If thousands of us do it, the countersuit will be a class action suit.
FYI, DnD_Shorts retracted that earlier tweet. He was wrong, they do read the surveys.
I don't believe it for a second.
The age of OGL is over. The Time of the ORC has come!
The moment that WotC declares OGL 1.0a "de-authorized", "revoked" or any such nonsense is the moment I release as much content as possible under OGL 1.0a and say, "Sue me WotC". OGL1.0a cannot be revoked. If thousands of us do it, the countersuit will be a class action suit.
So you believed him when he tweeted it, but not when he deleted the tweet and apologized? How... consistent.