I’m fine with reducing it to 2 attacks. The rest is really missing my point or ignoring an obvious problem: ignored point - the actual class abilities are suggestions to give it some more flavor, it’s nothing more than a shell to use for comparison. obvious problem (1) - trying to design a suite of entirely new abilities (it’s own mechanical identity) rather than drawing on pre-existing abilities to provide a basis for comparison is a whole different ballgame. obvious problem (2) - if your going to draw on pre-xisting abilities why wouldn’t you try to make the class as strong as possible - that is what Gish hunters really want - something that fights as well as a fighter and casts as well as a Wizard ( and for a generalist combat mage class why would your mage abilities be specialized to one school?)
I’m not proposing that as a homebrew class, I’m proposing it as something you could take the subclass abilities of an Eldritch Knight for instance and sub them in then compare the result to the 5e EK and decide which you like better as a Gish. You don’t want 3 attacks at L11 sub in something else instead. Same for any of the class ability suggestions (or subclass suggestions).
im suggesting that a class formatted something like that with the 1/3 caster subclass stuck on it instead of fighter (or possibly rogue) would make for Gishes superior to what we have now.
So, doing my own experiment with trying to see what a good gish setup looks like. I'm going to start by just using the UA ranger as a template (ranger features are shown struck out to make the comparison easier; generic features are not listed). The core concept here is that we want a turn to be, essentially, half strength spellcasting and half strength wizardry, and thus
Hit Points: d10 hit dice
Saving Throws: Constitution, Intelligence
Skills: two from Acrobatics, Athletics, Arcana, History, Insight, Investigation
Weapons: simple, martial
Armor: light, medium, heavy.
Expertise, Favored Enemy, Spellcasting, Fighting Style, War Training.
Arcane Surge
Gish Subclass
Feat
Extra Attack
Subclass Feature
Roving Spellstrike
Feat
Expertise War Caster
Subclass Feature
Tireless Improved Arcane Surge
Feat
Nature's Veil Close Range Spellcaster
Subclass Feature
Feral Senses Flawless Concentration
Feat
-
Foe Slayer Unlimited Arcane Surge
Feat
Epic Boon
Spellcasting
You prepare spells from the Arcane list, and your excluded school is Conjuration. Otherwise the same as Ranger.
Fighting Style
You gain one of the following fighting styles of your choice: defense, dueling, great weapon.
War Training
You may learn feats that have a Warrior prerequisite.
Arcane Surge
You make take the Magic action as a bonus action. Once you use this ability, you must complete a long or short rest before using it again.
Spellstrike
When you cast a damaging cantrip on your turn, you may choose to make a melee weapon attack. If this attack hits, the victim suffers both the normal effects of your weapon, and the effects of the cantrip. Cantrip damage is computed as if your level was 6 levels lower.
War Caster
You gain the Concentration and Reactive Spell effects of the War Caster feat. If you already had that feat, you may replace it with a different feat that you qualify for.
Improved Arcane Surge
When you take the Attack action on your turn, you may sacrifice one of your attacks to take the Magic action as a bonus action.
Close Range Spellcaster
When you cast an area spell that includes you in its area of effect, you may choose to be unaffected.
Flawless Concentration
Your concentration cannot be broken by damage.
Unlimited Arcane Surge
You do not need to rest between uses of arcane surge.
Subclasses
Enhancer
The Enhancer focuses on improving their martial abilities with magic. Subclass features
3rd Level: Personal Enchantment (2nd)
When you prepare spells, choose one spell of second level or lower. Its target becomes self or your weapon. You may treat it as a first level spell.
6th Level: Personal Enchantment (3rd)
As the third level feature, but the spell must be third level or lower, and is treated as second level.
10th Level: Personal Enchantment (5th)
As the third level feature, but the spell must be fifth level or lower, and is treated as third level.
14th Level: Personal Enchantment (7th)
As the third level feature, but the spell must be seventh level or lower, and is treated as fourth level.
Hexer
The hexer focuses on weakening their enemies with magic.
3rd Level: Exploit Hex
Once on your turn, when you hit a target affected by one of your spells with a melee weapon attack, that target takes an additional 1d6 force damage. This increases to 1d8 at level 6, 1d10 at level 10, and 1d12 at level 14.
6th Level: Reliable Hex, Exploit Hex (1d8)
If an enemy within your reach saves against one of your spells on your turn and would normally suffer no damage or other effect, they take 1d6 damage per level of spell.
10th Level: Malign Presence, Exploit Hex (1d10)
Targets within your reach have disadvantage on saves made against your spells.
14th Level: Rupture Hex, Exploit Hex (1d12)
As a bonus action on your turn, you may end any one spell you are concentrating on. All targets currently affected by that spell suffer (spell level+1) d8 force damage.
Imbuer
The Imbuer focuses on enhancing their weapons with magic.
3rd Level: Improved Magic Weapon
You always have the Magic Weapon spell prepared, and it doesn't count against the number of spells you can have prepared. If you cast it on your own weapon, any spell slots used to cast the spell count as double level (so a first level slot is treated as second level, a second level as fourth, a third level as sixth) and it does not require concentration, but the effect will not function for anyone but you.
6th Level: Improved Elemental Weapon
As Improved Magic Weapon, but applies to the elemental weapon spell.
10th Level: Imbue Weapon
As a magic action, you may touch a melee weapon and store a spell in it. The next time you hit a target with that weapon, the spell is automatically cast, targeting that creature, and the weapon is no longer imbued; the imbuement also ends if you imbue another weapon or complete a long rest. If the spell requires an attack roll, it is made with advantage; if it requires a save, the initial save is made with disadvantage.
14th Level: Enchant Magic Weapon
You may use Improved Magic Weapon and Improved Elemental Weapon. If the weapon has a bonus to attack or damage rolls, the bonuses are not cumulative -- just use the largest bonus.
What’s wrong with straight Hexblade with a sword? It’s got two attacks. It tanks pretty well. It’s happy in melee. It can cast often enough when it’s not mixing it up. It blasts things with magic. It’s got a whole suite of at-will magic.
I’m fine with reducing it to 2 attacks. The rest is really missing my point or ignoring an obvious problem:
ignored point - the actual class abilities are suggestions to give it some more flavor, it’s nothing more than a shell to use for comparison.
obvious problem (1) - trying to design a suite of entirely new abilities (it’s own mechanical identity) rather than drawing on pre-existing abilities to provide a basis for comparison is a whole different ballgame.
obvious problem (2) - if your going to draw on pre-xisting abilities why wouldn’t you try to make the class as strong as possible - that is what Gish hunters really want - something that fights as well as a fighter and casts as well as a Wizard ( and for a generalist combat mage class why would your mage abilities be specialized to one school?)
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I’m not proposing that as a homebrew class, I’m proposing it as something you could take the subclass abilities of an Eldritch Knight for instance and sub them in then compare the result to the 5e EK and decide which you like better as a Gish. You don’t want 3 attacks at L11 sub in something else instead. Same for any of the class ability suggestions (or subclass suggestions).
im suggesting that a class formatted something like that with the 1/3 caster subclass stuck on it instead of fighter (or possibly rogue) would make for Gishes superior to what we have now.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
So, doing my own experiment with trying to see what a good gish setup looks like. I'm going to start by just using the UA ranger as a template (ranger features are shown struck out to make the comparison easier; generic features are not listed). The core concept here is that we want a turn to be, essentially, half strength spellcasting and half strength wizardry, and thus
Expertise, Favored Enemy, Spellcasting, Fighting Style, War Training.RovingSpellstrikeExpertiseWar CasterTirelessImproved Arcane SurgeNature's VeilClose Range SpellcasterFeral SensesFlawless ConcentrationFoe SlayerUnlimited Arcane SurgeSpellcasting
You prepare spells from the Arcane list, and your excluded school is Conjuration. Otherwise the same as Ranger.
Fighting Style
You gain one of the following fighting styles of your choice: defense, dueling, great weapon.
War Training
You may learn feats that have a Warrior prerequisite.
Arcane Surge
You make take the Magic action as a bonus action. Once you use this ability, you must complete a long or short rest before using it again.
Spellstrike
When you cast a damaging cantrip on your turn, you may choose to make a melee weapon attack. If this attack hits, the victim suffers both the normal effects of your weapon, and the effects of the cantrip. Cantrip damage is computed as if your level was 6 levels lower.
War Caster
You gain the Concentration and Reactive Spell effects of the War Caster feat. If you already had that feat, you may replace it with a different feat that you qualify for.
Improved Arcane Surge
When you take the Attack action on your turn, you may sacrifice one of your attacks to take the Magic action as a bonus action.
Close Range Spellcaster
When you cast an area spell that includes you in its area of effect, you may choose to be unaffected.
Flawless Concentration
Your concentration cannot be broken by damage.
Unlimited Arcane Surge
You do not need to rest between uses of arcane surge.
Subclasses
Enhancer
The Enhancer focuses on improving their martial abilities with magic. Subclass features
3rd Level: Personal Enchantment (2nd)
When you prepare spells, choose one spell of second level or lower. Its target becomes self or your weapon. You may treat it as a first level spell.
6th Level: Personal Enchantment (3rd)
As the third level feature, but the spell must be third level or lower, and is treated as second level.
10th Level: Personal Enchantment (5th)
As the third level feature, but the spell must be fifth level or lower, and is treated as third level.
14th Level: Personal Enchantment (7th)
As the third level feature, but the spell must be seventh level or lower, and is treated as fourth level.
Hexer
The hexer focuses on weakening their enemies with magic.
3rd Level: Exploit Hex
Once on your turn, when you hit a target affected by one of your spells with a melee weapon attack, that target takes an additional 1d6 force damage. This increases to 1d8 at level 6, 1d10 at level 10, and 1d12 at level 14.
6th Level: Reliable Hex, Exploit Hex (1d8)
If an enemy within your reach saves against one of your spells on your turn and would normally suffer no damage or other effect, they take 1d6 damage per level of spell.
10th Level: Malign Presence, Exploit Hex (1d10)
Targets within your reach have disadvantage on saves made against your spells.
14th Level: Rupture Hex, Exploit Hex (1d12)
As a bonus action on your turn, you may end any one spell you are concentrating on. All targets currently affected by that spell suffer (spell level+1) d8 force damage.
Imbuer
The Imbuer focuses on enhancing their weapons with magic.
3rd Level: Improved Magic Weapon
You always have the Magic Weapon spell prepared, and it doesn't count against the number of spells you can have prepared. If you cast it on your own weapon, any spell slots used to cast the spell count as double level (so a first level slot is treated as second level, a second level as fourth, a third level as sixth) and it does not require concentration, but the effect will not function for anyone but you.
6th Level: Improved Elemental Weapon
As Improved Magic Weapon, but applies to the elemental weapon spell.
10th Level: Imbue Weapon
As a magic action, you may touch a melee weapon and store a spell in it. The next time you hit a target with that weapon, the spell is automatically cast, targeting that creature, and the weapon is no longer imbued; the imbuement also ends if you imbue another weapon or complete a long rest. If the spell requires an attack roll, it is made with advantage; if it requires a save, the initial save is made with disadvantage.
14th Level: Enchant Magic Weapon
You may use Improved Magic Weapon and Improved Elemental Weapon. If the weapon has a bonus to attack or damage rolls, the bonuses are not cumulative -- just use the largest bonus.
What’s wrong with straight Hexblade with a sword? It’s got two attacks. It tanks pretty well. It’s happy in melee. It can cast often enough when it’s not mixing it up. It blasts things with magic. It’s got a whole suite of at-will magic.
I really should have made it more clear that I was thinking about onednd when I made the post.
(The system which doesn't yet have an eldritch knight, or a bladesinger, or a hexblade, or an artificer)........ (or even a fighter or wizard).