I don't believe anyone needs to go overboard anymore. The company has opened the floor to discussion and is clearly making a strong effort to get it right now.
We have a means to help them get it right.
This is a lot more like the reaction I expected people to have when they pulled back on OGL1.1 and have since opened 1.2 up to public scrutiny. I agree with others that the reaction by many has been overblown to the point of suspicion.
Do people have valid concerns? Definitely. Was the initial distribution of OGL1.1 underhanded and predatory? Yes. But companies are not always a monolith, sometimes you have individual people or teams that overstep their bounds and in situations like this get pulled back by others.
You're free to do what you want in reaction to all this, but the weird part is the people actively and fervently campaigning for everyone else to cancel subs, boycott the movie, manufacture and impale WotC voodoo dolls, etc.
I certainly have a plan for an alternate system if things go south and I've brought it up with my group, many of who have not been following this at all. But as heinous as their initial action was, their response has been pretty good (although it could have come out sooner - the delay does make me feel that there has been some intra-company conflict about who takes the wheel). So I'm saving drastic action for when something actually happens.
A hungry wolf forced to retreat is still a hungry wolf. They didn't have a change of heart, they got nut-tapped so hard their ancestors felt it. They have backed away from their goal for now but they will try again unless we get this right. They deserve no leniency, they deserve no respect. They showed neither of the community trying to put out the OGL 1.1 so if they want this to work it should be on our terms. It has become apparent they do not respect us and see us as only a group to try to bilk as much money out of.
"Every one just calm down and take it easy" ends with "you're drawing too much outside attention to this issue, and more people are starting to notice!"
Which is the point. And it works.
I had no reason to care about posting here until Hasbro/WotC tried to attack the status quo. The reason so many people are suddenly posting is... because suddenly being heard was very relevant.
Trying to suppress dissent serves the communities interests not at all.
I can't speak to what's happening on Facebook, but what's happening here makes me wonder how many members of the "community" are actually that upset
The most incendiary posts on these forums are coming from accounts who haven't posted about any other subject but the OGL. They haven't engaged in rules discussions. They haven't shared a character backstory, or helped someone else craft theirs. They haven't asked for help making a homebrew magic item, or chatted about lost lore from previous editions
There is, in fact, no evidence that they are members of "the community" at all. They are indistinguishable from sock puppet accounts and trolls who are just here to try and rile up and fragment the actual community
If that makes me a gatekeeper, so be it. I am just very, very tired of these boards being flooded with posts from accounts created within the last 24 hours, no posting history at all and with convenient avatars that mark them as part of the "rebellion", who yell about what "the community" should be doing
I think your perspective is very short sighted. Being part of the community consists of playing the game (I do for more than 10 years), DMing (as I do) or create content for D&D. Just because people didn't post here anything (as I did) doesn't make us not part of the community. A lot of people post here for the first time, because WotC is trying to establish a monopoly (and they still do) which bring our entire hobby into a great danger. People like me speak up when they are threatened and not to discuss rules.
So yes, some people are going overboard, but they need to.
Let's start of by saying, the first one was not a draft, companies have come out saying, they were sent that license to sign, you don't sign a draft.
The community's outrage is really the only thing that got WoTC to back down and come to the table with us. The problem, peace wasn't what WoTC wanted, they wanted an iron grasp on all the money everyone was making and wanted to make it, so they were the only game in town.
As a community, we shouldn't be calm, but we also have to be reasonable. For example, the current draft is better, but it's still got a ton of issues. Also, the VTT policy is trash and just meant to that when they release their VTT, no one can compete with features. So be reasonable and don't give death threats or anything rude, but you should be mad, you should be angry, and you should voice that anger.
Drafts are sent with an option to sign every single time in most lawyer practices. If the other side signs, great, but what is expected is a long exchange of drafts.
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DM for life by choice, biggest fan of D&D specifically.
I read through the current version of the "draft" OGL. It's pretty simple. It basically says the same crap the secret version said, only they hid it better under legal gibberish and the overuse of the word license. They can still claim to be able to do what they want, when they want, with their stuff and yours. They effectively prevent you from *****ing about it (court).
1.2 is a VERY different document, in every respect. The "hateful" clause is poorly defined and allows overreach, and the severance clause is poorly worded. If these are fixed (and they probably will be) the document is much better than 1.0a, which is actually a pretty bad document. It has allowed for some great stuff, but it is a poor legal document.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM for life by choice, biggest fan of D&D specifically.
I can't speak to what's happening on Facebook, but what's happening here makes me wonder how many members of the "community" are actually that upset
The most incendiary posts on these forums are coming from accounts who haven't posted about any other subject but the OGL. They haven't engaged in rules discussions. They haven't shared a character backstory, or helped someone else craft theirs. They haven't asked for help making a homebrew magic item, or chatted about lost lore from previous editions
There is, in fact, no evidence that they are members of "the community" at all. They are indistinguishable from sock puppet accounts and trolls who are just here to try and rile up and fragment the actual community
If that makes me a gatekeeper, so be it. I am just very, very tired of these boards being flooded with posts from accounts created within the last 24 hours, no posting history at all and with convenient avatars that mark them as part of the "rebellion", who yell about what "the community" should be doing
That doesn’t make you a gatekeeper, that makes you naïve. I have been a subscriber for several years, I own all the books, both physical, and I paid for the digital access on this site.
I have not posted before this controversy because I saw no need to. The occasional question I had that I couldn’t make a quick, decisive opinion of at the table. I would come here and find the answer already spelled out.
I started posting with the initial leaks of OGL 1.1 came out in large part because I do actively support third-party developers. I buy quite a few products, I run almost none of them, but I buy them for ideas.
I see every action that WoTC has taken to put in jeopardy the way I like to play the game. I like buying third-party content. I like reading it, and severely mutating it into something I can call my own. WoTC is trying to stop that, and they are doing it while lying about their intentions. (if that gets me moderated, so be it, but I believe honestly that everything they have stated about their intentions for the OGL has been misleading at best.)
You do have one thing right, I’m not part of the “community”. I don’t post, I don’t go to conventions, I don’t play test new material. I’ve never been a “fanboy” - this is just a game that I enjoy playing, I enjoy DMing, and I purchase. I’m just a customer - a formerly happy but now angry customer.
So the guy who originally posted joined 6.12.2022 ? last month and tells me to cool down after all the money ive spent and subs . Just na!
American date standards, that right there is 12th June.
Are you sure Subidai didn't sign up in the 22nd month?
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
It doesn't matter how good the document is. It doesn't matter if Dungeons and Dragons players like it either. It is a contract between buisneses. WotC has shown it is willing to breach its contracts with the other publishers. Those publishers are not going to publish things for WotC under a license that WotC writes by themselves. This isn't going to change if a bunch of non lawyers leave feedback on the license. The ORC actually solves some of the things WotC claims it is interested in.
1) As a third party license WotC is not connected to anything hatefull or bigoted that is published under the license. It becomes a problem for the non profit that owns the license not WotC. WofC can still put out statments condeming people that don't fit their morals. WotC can still ban buisnesses from Dndbeyond and the DMsGuild. They can even pressure retailers into not selling books they don't like. Or pressure retailers not to sell the books next to their own books.
2) As a third party license, No one can claim Access by Wizards in a Copywright suit based on the license. The substantial similarity language is likely going to wind up in the ORC license anyway.
3) WotC already has sepperate aggrements made with VTTs. They said so in their original announcement. WotC can reach similar aggrements with other VTTs by selling books and modules on those sites.
I think you overestimate the willingness of 3PP to stay away from D&D IF they are offered a good OGL. OGL 1.1 was not a good document, but OGL 1.2 is a firm basis for one. Besides, we don't yet know what ORC does as it isn't published or even written yet, AFAIK. And considering ORC is made by the only direct competitor of WotC, it is unreasonable to demand that WotC surrenders its BY FAR more valuable IP to Paizo and Co.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM for life by choice, biggest fan of D&D specifically.
I can't speak to what's happening on Facebook, but what's happening here makes me wonder how many members of the "community" are actually that upset
The most incendiary posts on these forums are coming from accounts who haven't posted about any other subject but the OGL. They haven't engaged in rules discussions. They haven't shared a character backstory, or helped someone else craft theirs. They haven't asked for help making a homebrew magic item, or chatted about lost lore from previous editions
There is, in fact, no evidence that they are members of "the community" at all. They are indistinguishable from sock puppet accounts and trolls who are just here to try and rile up and fragment the actual community
If that makes me a gatekeeper, so be it. I am just very, very tired of these boards being flooded with posts from accounts created within the last 24 hours, no posting history at all and with convenient avatars that mark them as part of the "rebellion", who yell about what "the community" should be doing
You know there are a ton of communities for DnD other than DnD Beyond, right?
I wonder how much overlap there is between the "Burn WotC" and the "You changed Race you f*ck*rs!!"
Wow, just wow. Accusing people who disagree with you of also being racist is incredible.
I want WotC to either stop this blatant backpeddling on working with 3rd party content producers or to fail trying because WotC is actively trying to burn the gaming community that aren't their direct customers into the ground with this debacle. They are trying to claim ownership over VTT features I have used for the 4 or 5 years I've been subbed to DnD Beyond with the top level tier. I've purchased multiple books on Beyond, and was hopeful that their VTT would be good so I could move from Tabletop Simulator to one with the character sheets and encounter builder built in. I don't even begrudge them from not working with other VTTs to integrate even though that would have most likely benefitted WotC in the long run by letting someone else to the lifting to increase their player base just like DnD Beyond did.
I also liked the changes to Races! Also happy with removing the importance of alignment, as that also tended to draw out people's racism (active or subconscious).
But this whole OGL mess is just the worst possible thing that could happen to DnD. I hope that WotC will catch on and license their SRD for ALL editions through the ORC as that will be a neutral party, but knowing they won't I do hope they burn to the ground because of their actions.
But do go on about how people who are strongly against the actions of WotC are really because we are all secretly racists.
Here is the thing. If you don't want to see it, you do not have to look. But people are still riled up about this. And there still is no reason to calm down. I do not even like VTT stuff and I think what they are trying to do is insane. Why is it so hard to understand that the people, the ones who actually make this company money by buying their books and whatever else they put out, do not want something updated or "fixed" when it was not broken in the first place? Why can a company not actually LISTEN to their consumers? So no I am not going to calm down and neither should the community. WoTC needs US, we do not need them.
Here is the thing. If you don't want to see it, you do not have to look. But people are still riled up about this. And there still is no reason to calm down. I do not even like VTT stuff and I think what they are trying to do is insane. Why is it so hard to understand that the people, the ones who actually make this company money by buying their books and whatever else they put out, do not want something updated or "fixed" when it was not broken in the first place? Why can a company not actually LISTEN to their consumers? So no I am not going to calm down and neither should the community. WoTC needs US, we do not need them.
Isn't it interesting that there was no push to update the OGL from the community based on fear of hateful 3rd party content, but once WotC used that as a justification to ditch their existing licenses people keep parroting it as some kind of emergency?
Here is the thing. If you don't want to see it, you do not have to look. But people are still riled up about this. And there still is no reason to calm down. I do not even like VTT stuff and I think what they are trying to do is insane. Why is it so hard to understand that the people, the ones who actually make this company money by buying their books and whatever else they put out, do not want something updated or "fixed" when it was not broken in the first place? Why can a company not actually LISTEN to their consumers? So no I am not going to calm down and neither should the community. WoTC needs US, we do not need them.
Isn't it interesting that there was no push to update the OGL from the community based on fear of hateful 3rd party content, but once WotC used that as a justification to ditch their existing licenses people keep parroting it as some kind of emergency?
There are always going to be "collaborators" no matter how disgraceful the action taken is, someone will always stand up on behalf of the megacorps and claim that "they are just innocent businesses".
I can understand that people are growing weary of the debate, but you have to understand how fundamentally wrong everything that has transpired in the last few weeks is. Wizards of the Coast has been revealed for the total lying sacks of ..... that they are. The New OGL is just as bad as the original, nothing has changed, neither what they are trying to pass off to the community or how they feel about us "obstacles".
What has changed is that the community isn't just complaining anymore, they are taking action, action that is hurting the company financially and this got their attention so they are now in appeasement mode trying to save themselves from self-destruction, but it's far too late for that.
There is only one acceptable outcome at this point. #OpenD&D. That is it. I don't care what they publish, what apologies they give, or any other actions they take, this is now the only acceptable outcome. Everything else is nothing short of a full and total cancelation of Wizards of the Coast and a boycott of everything official D&D. They have lost their privilege so far as I'm concerned to make decisions about D&D at this point.
If enough people take this approach and I'm hopeful that they will, this community will get the D&D they deserve.
This new OGL is NOT better. It is sneaky. Underhanded. Deceptive. The blog they put out was deceiving at best. It is not irrevocable. They have multiple ways to revoke.
they directly assault the Vtt scene for no reason other than to make sure they have the thing locked down.
they have so much ambiguity they could argue most things and win.
the fact so much deceptive material appeared here shows their hand. This was not a good faith attempt.
Here is the thing. If you don't want to see it, you do not have to look. But people are still riled up about this. And there still is no reason to calm down. I do not even like VTT stuff and I think what they are trying to do is insane. Why is it so hard to understand that the people, the ones who actually make this company money by buying their books and whatever else they put out, do not want something updated or "fixed" when it was not broken in the first place? Why can a company not actually LISTEN to their consumers? So no I am not going to calm down and neither should the community. WoTC needs US, we do not need them.
Isn't it interesting that there was no push to update the OGL from the community based on fear of hateful 3rd party content, but once WotC used that as a justification to ditch their existing licenses people keep parroting it as some kind of emergency?
Yeah I found that to be pretty interesting too. They knew the right words to say to start the divide. And it is kind of sad that people are falling into that trap. I have played this game for like 20 years now. And not once I have seen "hateful 3rd Party content". And I promise you there were probably some sick people out there that actually tried but were shot down.
This new OGL is NOT better. It is sneaky. Underhanded. Deceptive. The blog they put out was deceiving at best. It is not irrevocable. They have multiple ways to revoke.
they directly assault the Vtt scene for no reason other than to make sure they have the thing locked down.
they have so much ambiguity they could argue most things and win.
the fact so much deceptive material appeared here shows their hand. This was not a good faith attempt.
They redefined irrevocable too - that is not the legal definition.
Here is the thing. If you don't want to see it, you do not have to look. But people are still riled up about this. And there still is no reason to calm down. I do not even like VTT stuff and I think what they are trying to do is insane. Why is it so hard to understand that the people, the ones who actually make this company money by buying their books and whatever else they put out, do not want something updated or "fixed" when it was not broken in the first place? Why can a company not actually LISTEN to their consumers? So no I am not going to calm down and neither should the community. WoTC needs US, we do not need them.
Isn't it interesting that there was no push to update the OGL from the community based on fear of hateful 3rd party content, but once WotC used that as a justification to ditch their existing licenses people keep parroting it as some kind of emergency?
They're also painting everyone opposed to revoking 1.0a as some sort of bigot, because they oppose the anti-hate provisions.
I don't oppose those provisions, I oppose WotC being the ones to administer them what with them being unworthy of trust.
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A hungry wolf forced to retreat is still a hungry wolf. They didn't have a change of heart, they got nut-tapped so hard their ancestors felt it. They have backed away from their goal for now but they will try again unless we get this right. They deserve no leniency, they deserve no respect. They showed neither of the community trying to put out the OGL 1.1 so if they want this to work it should be on our terms. It has become apparent they do not respect us and see us as only a group to try to bilk as much money out of.
"Every one just calm down and take it easy" ends with "you're drawing too much outside attention to this issue, and more people are starting to notice!"
Which is the point. And it works.
I had no reason to care about posting here until Hasbro/WotC tried to attack the status quo. The reason so many people are suddenly posting is... because suddenly being heard was very relevant.
Trying to suppress dissent serves the communities interests not at all.
So the guy who originally posted joined 6.12.2022 ? last month and tells me to cool down after all the money ive spent and subs . Just na!
I think your perspective is very short sighted. Being part of the community consists of playing the game (I do for more than 10 years), DMing (as I do) or create content for D&D. Just because people didn't post here anything (as I did) doesn't make us not part of the community. A lot of people post here for the first time, because WotC is trying to establish a monopoly (and they still do) which bring our entire hobby into a great danger. People like me speak up when they are threatened and not to discuss rules.
American date standards, that right there is 12th June.
DM for life by choice, biggest fan of D&D specifically.
Drafts are sent with an option to sign every single time in most lawyer practices. If the other side signs, great, but what is expected is a long exchange of drafts.
DM for life by choice, biggest fan of D&D specifically.
1.2 is a VERY different document, in every respect. The "hateful" clause is poorly defined and allows overreach, and the severance clause is poorly worded. If these are fixed (and they probably will be) the document is much better than 1.0a, which is actually a pretty bad document. It has allowed for some great stuff, but it is a poor legal document.
DM for life by choice, biggest fan of D&D specifically.
That doesn’t make you a gatekeeper, that makes you naïve. I have been a subscriber for several years, I own all the books, both physical, and I paid for the digital access on this site.
I have not posted before this controversy because I saw no need to. The occasional question I had that I couldn’t make a quick, decisive opinion of at the table. I would come here and find the answer already spelled out.
I started posting with the initial leaks of OGL 1.1 came out in large part because I do actively support third-party developers. I buy quite a few products, I run almost none of them, but I buy them for ideas.
I see every action that WoTC has taken to put in jeopardy the way I like to play the game. I like buying third-party content. I like reading it, and severely mutating it into something I can call my own. WoTC is trying to stop that, and they are doing it while lying about their intentions. (if that gets me moderated, so be it, but I believe honestly that everything they have stated about their intentions for the OGL has been misleading at best.)
You do have one thing right, I’m not part of the “community”. I don’t post, I don’t go to conventions, I don’t play test new material. I’ve never been a “fanboy” - this is just a game that I enjoy playing, I enjoy DMing, and I purchase. I’m just a customer - a formerly happy but now angry customer.
Are you sure Subidai didn't sign up in the 22nd month?
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
It doesn't matter how good the document is. It doesn't matter if Dungeons and Dragons players like it either. It is a contract between buisneses. WotC has shown it is willing to breach its contracts with the other publishers. Those publishers are not going to publish things for WotC under a license that WotC writes by themselves. This isn't going to change if a bunch of non lawyers leave feedback on the license. The ORC actually solves some of the things WotC claims it is interested in.
1) As a third party license WotC is not connected to anything hatefull or bigoted that is published under the license. It becomes a problem for the non profit that owns the license not WotC. WofC can still put out statments condeming people that don't fit their morals. WotC can still ban buisnesses from Dndbeyond and the DMsGuild. They can even pressure retailers into not selling books they don't like. Or pressure retailers not to sell the books next to their own books.
2) As a third party license, No one can claim Access by Wizards in a Copywright suit based on the license. The substantial similarity language is likely going to wind up in the ORC license anyway.
3) WotC already has sepperate aggrements made with VTTs. They said so in their original announcement. WotC can reach similar aggrements with other VTTs by selling books and modules on those sites.
I think you overestimate the willingness of 3PP to stay away from D&D IF they are offered a good OGL. OGL 1.1 was not a good document, but OGL 1.2 is a firm basis for one. Besides, we don't yet know what ORC does as it isn't published or even written yet, AFAIK. And considering ORC is made by the only direct competitor of WotC, it is unreasonable to demand that WotC surrenders its BY FAR more valuable IP to Paizo and Co.
DM for life by choice, biggest fan of D&D specifically.
You know there are a ton of communities for DnD other than DnD Beyond, right?
Wow, just wow. Accusing people who disagree with you of also being racist is incredible.
I want WotC to either stop this blatant backpeddling on working with 3rd party content producers or to fail trying because WotC is actively trying to burn the gaming community that aren't their direct customers into the ground with this debacle. They are trying to claim ownership over VTT features I have used for the 4 or 5 years I've been subbed to DnD Beyond with the top level tier. I've purchased multiple books on Beyond, and was hopeful that their VTT would be good so I could move from Tabletop Simulator to one with the character sheets and encounter builder built in. I don't even begrudge them from not working with other VTTs to integrate even though that would have most likely benefitted WotC in the long run by letting someone else to the lifting to increase their player base just like DnD Beyond did.
I also liked the changes to Races! Also happy with removing the importance of alignment, as that also tended to draw out people's racism (active or subconscious).
But this whole OGL mess is just the worst possible thing that could happen to DnD. I hope that WotC will catch on and license their SRD for ALL editions through the ORC as that will be a neutral party, but knowing they won't I do hope they burn to the ground because of their actions.
But do go on about how people who are strongly against the actions of WotC are really because we are all secretly racists.
Here is the thing. If you don't want to see it, you do not have to look. But people are still riled up about this. And there still is no reason to calm down. I do not even like VTT stuff and I think what they are trying to do is insane. Why is it so hard to understand that the people, the ones who actually make this company money by buying their books and whatever else they put out, do not want something updated or "fixed" when it was not broken in the first place? Why can a company not actually LISTEN to their consumers? So no I am not going to calm down and neither should the community. WoTC needs US, we do not need them.
Isn't it interesting that there was no push to update the OGL from the community based on fear of hateful 3rd party content, but once WotC used that as a justification to ditch their existing licenses people keep parroting it as some kind of emergency?
There are always going to be "collaborators" no matter how disgraceful the action taken is, someone will always stand up on behalf of the megacorps and claim that "they are just innocent businesses".
I can understand that people are growing weary of the debate, but you have to understand how fundamentally wrong everything that has transpired in the last few weeks is. Wizards of the Coast has been revealed for the total lying sacks of ..... that they are. The New OGL is just as bad as the original, nothing has changed, neither what they are trying to pass off to the community or how they feel about us "obstacles".
What has changed is that the community isn't just complaining anymore, they are taking action, action that is hurting the company financially and this got their attention so they are now in appeasement mode trying to save themselves from self-destruction, but it's far too late for that.
There is only one acceptable outcome at this point. #OpenD&D. That is it. I don't care what they publish, what apologies they give, or any other actions they take, this is now the only acceptable outcome. Everything else is nothing short of a full and total cancelation of Wizards of the Coast and a boycott of everything official D&D. They have lost their privilege so far as I'm concerned to make decisions about D&D at this point.
If enough people take this approach and I'm hopeful that they will, this community will get the D&D they deserve.
This new OGL is NOT better. It is sneaky. Underhanded. Deceptive. The blog they put out was deceiving at best. It is not irrevocable. They have multiple ways to revoke.
they directly assault the Vtt scene for no reason other than to make sure they have the thing locked down.
they have so much ambiguity they could argue most things and win.
the fact so much deceptive material appeared here shows their hand. This was not a good faith attempt.
Yeah I found that to be pretty interesting too. They knew the right words to say to start the divide. And it is kind of sad that people are falling into that trap. I have played this game for like 20 years now. And not once I have seen "hateful 3rd Party content". And I promise you there were probably some sick people out there that actually tried but were shot down.
They redefined irrevocable too - that is not the legal definition.
They're also painting everyone opposed to revoking 1.0a as some sort of bigot, because they oppose the anti-hate provisions.
I don't oppose those provisions, I oppose WotC being the ones to administer them what with them being unworthy of trust.