Was it a self-inflected wound that kicked this whole thing off?
The disappearing threads and messages occurring in the forums have accomplished something.
They caused me to go examine the legal case that keeps getting bandied around as the justification for why Hasbro and WOTC suddenly need all this power to "protect themselves" from the terrible things going on in it.
One should never find anything amusing in these lawsuits but I did once I saw how pathetic this great threat HASBRO and WOTC is worried about and how this is important to Hasbro so suddenly.
First let me say I despise bigots of all types. Does not matter race, religion, sex, they are all closed minds and small souls. I have been in an interracial marriage for over 45 years and there’s a town not an hour drive from where we live that my family and I are definitely not welcome in. The Constitution does allow Americans (even bigots) to have free expression so I have to put up with them.
Under the United States Constitution and laws, you cannot go after someone by claiming they are discriminating against you because they never mentioned you in their book or game. That’s a really hard argument to make in court. There is without a doubt racism there but there is also an illustration of the same race (excuse me, species) the complainants had in their products a few months ago. Even if that unpleasant fact was not there under the Constitution, they can get away with it so why is Hasbro suddenly concerned after all these years under the old OGL? They would have no concerns except:
HASBRO forgot to renew certain trademark(s) in question. They basically legally abandoned them and someone else grabbed the trademark(s) legally. These included “TSR, Star Frontiers, and other related marks in a timely fashion as required under federal law”.
The legal system in effect in America allows that if someone abandons something someone else can claim it if it is done in a legal fashion. Negligence is what I think happened here and until this morning I never knew HASBRO had failed to keep the trademark(s) in this case registered like federal law has required.
They are trying to cover their negligence with a weak plea to common trademark law but there IS a reason the Patent and Trademark office exists.
HASBRO really screwed up here. This is my opinion and I am not a lawyer or giving legal advice nor do I expect to sit on a jury on this.
I do expect, after reading up on this case, for a decision to be a much closer thing then I did at first glance.
In my opinion there are despicable things on both sides of this case but this is America where one can say despicable things. One does have to follow the law and that includes paying to legally keep your stuff registered with the United States Patent and Trademark Office. Trying to cover your negligence with a weak plea to common trademark law and shouting racism and other things does not work in a courtroom but does in a forum.
In conclusion, in my not a lawyer opinion, Hasbro screwed up in a very basic manner that has NOTHING to do with the OGL. They plain out failed to do their required paperwork to keep their trademark (s) and someone else acquired them legally at the US Patent and Trademark office.
One wonders how this fact is not in any other post on these forums.
This smoke screen on racism and transphobia is to hide that fact to the general public, but a court should not and likely will not give any merit to it if it is protected speech under the Constitution, even if we have to hold our noses while it happens because there is some fire under the smoke.
What kicked it off is some new execs from predatory companies were hired and they decided the same anti competitive and predatory actions under the guise of "think of the children" would let them build a mediocre VTT and make Fortnight money.
In conclusion, in my not a lawyer opinion, Hasbro screwed up in a very basic manner that has NOTHING to do with the OGL. They plain out failed to do their required paperwork to keep their trademark (s) and someone else acquired them legally at the US Patent and Trademark office.
Your conclusion is straight up wrong. While it is true they let the registration on the trademark lapse, that is irrelevant to the analysis.
All you need for a trademark is a mark that you use in commerce. Registration is completely optional. That is why some things use “™” to designate something is their trademark, and others use “®” to designate their registered trademark.
Wizards was and is still using the trademarks for “Star Frontiers” and “TSR” in commerce. As such, they get trademark protections regardless of whether registered or not. The lapse in paperwork is completely irrelevant for your analysis - Gygax had no right to use the ™ at issue.
The United States Patent and Trademark office disagree with you...so does Hasbro in their filings with the Court but keep keep on doing what you are doing, your remarks will never be deleted unlike others who have a different opinion.
So how do you know if Wizards is still using the trademarks for “Star Frontiers” and “TSR” in commerce so quickly if I may ask? Are you representing Hasbro or WOTC?
It took me a while to find out Hasbro lost their injunction on 22 December 2022 but there is no mention in it of their "still using the trademarks for “Star Frontiers” and “TSR” in commerce" that I can find even to this moment.
If there was, I am sure a court would look to see if anything that was there was started after the second company legally acquired the trademark, would it not?
In addition, ff I was working on the case for Hasbro or WOTC or the defendant company or one of the many companies getting involved in this dust up I would feel the need to disclose that.
The United States Patent and Trademark office disagree with you...so does Hasbro in their filings with the Court but keep keep on doing what you are doing, your remarks will never be deleted unlike others who have a different opinion.
Wrong on both counts. Common law trademark is very much a thing that exists (and has since the Roman Empire), and exists irrespective of registration with the PTO. And, as for your claim that Wizards admits they have no trademark protections—an easily disproven falsehood. They literally claim common law protections in their pleading:
That assumption is incorrect. Despite the expiration of the registrations, Wizards has maintainted its common law trademark rights in the Marks because it has continued to use the Marks in commerce.
Sorry, but you are wrong on this—maybe rather than assert things you admit you are not an expert on and try to imply you have read documents you clearly did not, you could admit you made a mistake? Or are you implying that Wizard attorneys are making up a “common law trademark” that does not exist, and that you, a self-styled non-lawyer who apparently doesn’t know the difference between the two different trademark symbols, know the law better than they do?
So how do you know if Wizards is still using the trademarks for “Star Frontiers” and “TSR” in commerce so quickly if I may ask? Are you representing Hasbro or WOTC?
Easy. As a lawyer, particularly one who finds the quagmire that is IP law interesting and has some some IP work, and as a D&D player, I have been keeping an eye on the case and actually read the pleadings. They are available for public consumption.
I also just generally know that Wizards licenses out its old rulebooks, such as Star Frontiers or other content branded TSR for sale on DriveThruRPG - that is textbook use in commerce.
Just came back to this and finally noticed you had said
"you are not an expert on and try to imply you have read documents you clearly did not"
While I admit I am not a lawyer I can read and am not a liar as you said I was.
Everything is pretty much available for when the case numbered 2:21-cv-01705 goes up this coming October. I will just include from document 1 filed 12/29/21
"Despite these repeated requests, Defendant has provided no evidence to support Defendant’s contention that the marks have been in continuous use by Defendant since 1997."
"To date, no information has been provided by Defendant regarding the licensing agreements it alleges it has with two distributors of its products or Defendant’s own use of the Marks at Issue."
"The registration for the Game Wizards Logo owned by TSR, Inc.(USPTO Registration Number 1241135) was deemed abandoned by the USPTO on November 20, 1989 prior to Defendant’s purchase of TSR, Inc. assets;"
In the end we shall see how it goes if it is not settled by October but I wish I had noticed your comment earlier...
By the way, if Star Frontier has always been and still is available for sale at the Drive Thru RPG website where is it and why did the law firm WOTC use not provide during discovery as ordered along with sales records?
The only thing with Star Frontiers in it at drivethrurpg is owned Frontier Explorer which is not WOTC. If you want I can include the ttabvue.uspto.gov website documents for the case.
You are right, I am not a lawyer, but I am not stupid or a liar either.
By the way, if Star Frontier has always been and still is available for sale at the Drive Thru RPG website where is it and why did the law firm WOTC use not provide during discovery as ordered along with sales records?
The only thing with Star Frontiers in it at drivethrurpg is owned Frontier Explorer which is not WOTC. If you want I can include the ttabvue.uspto.gov website documents for the case.
You are right, I am not a lawyer, but I am not stupid or a liar either.
You may not be a liar, but if so you're misinformed or misreading because you didn't read far enough. Go back to DriveThru RPG and scroll down past issue 25 of The Frontiersmen ... and there you will find everything from the original Star Frontiers line available, many in multiple file formats (pdf and HC/SC print on demand) all listed as from "Wizards of the Coast". If you looked further into what The Starsfrontiersmen was (basic Google) it wasn't hard to determine that Star Frontiersmen was created within a fan effort to keep the original Star Froniters in circulation ... until about 2018 where it got take down notices, that were renegotiated so the "fan content" it created originally could still be made available _for free_ (they were trying to sell issues) after their magazine was scrubbed of all Dragon magazine content. I actually remember a bunch of this because every now and then I get nostalgic about the original Star Frontiers and know the Star Frontiersmen crowd have been doing their stuff since at least GeoCities was one the most common TTRPG fan web hosts, and you looked them up via Alta Vista.
As for your "legal reading," I'd trust Caerwyn's perspective here. I'm not being condescending when I say if they offer to teach you how to read legal documents, take them up on it. You are untrained in legal writing and research, whereas Caerwyn actually gets paid to do corporate law and has been reading the docket. I think it's clear who knows what they're talking about and who's upset because their theory is getting shot up. Really if you can't read past 25 entries on a Drive Thru RPG product list, I'm not going to have a lot of confidence in your ability to grok legal filings.
15 hours ago none of those other things showed up for a search on Star Frontier. 8 hours after I posted all this you come on and now all this WOTC stuff pulls ups in a search just for Star Frontier. Why is that now occurring? What does Dragonlance and the 2e Players handbook now show up in a search just for Star Frontier? Were they too quick in adding it? In any case the fact fan content does not count in a legal case or a google search for what was but what does count is when asked in discovery and they did not provide
I will let it go at this since Caerwyn_Glyndwr: apparently has friends in authority here or maybe they just prefer his side of the discussion.
15 hours ago none of those other things showed up for a search on Star Frontier. 8 hours after I posted all this you come on and now all this WOTC stuff pulls ups in a search just for Star Frontier. Why is that now occurring? What does Dragonlance and the 2e Players handbook now show up in a search just for Star Frontier? Were they too quick in adding it? In any case the fact fan content does not count in a legal case or a google search for what was but what does count is when asked in discovery and they did not provide
I will let it go at this since Caerwyn_Glyndwr: apparently has friends in authority here or maybe they just prefer his side of the discussion.
Can't say any more on it.
Right, Caerwyn Glyndwr is protected by the Illuminati, who altered Drive Thru RPG's catalog to protect him in an argument between you and him on D&D Beyond forums ... or you could have simply made a mistake. That you're doubling down on conspiracy theory instead of, "Ok, I was wrong, let me see how this effects my argument" you went full conspiracy to discredit you on DDB says, honestly I don't know what to call it.
Again, I jumped into this discussion because I actually know something about the history of the original Star Frontiers and its internet fan community. I was aware of the folks behind the Frontiersmen and the original Star Frontiers scene going back to at least the 90s. You were clearly cherry picking info about material you didn't really know all that much about. I get it. Sometimes, especially on the internet, when you've made the mistake to commit to a in the grand scheme of things an inconsequential fight, people see what they want to see in a "rush to be right." I've done it too. I've just never blamed having an incorrect understanding on some conspiracy that exists to protect one dude on the Internet arguing in a relatively low traffic space with another dude on the internet.
I sincerely appreciate you not saying more on this, for your sake. I hope other "partisans" being duped into boosting some bad faith influencers' engagement rates do so too. And then maybe folks can have a reasonable conversation about the OGL amidst what's usually a pretty reasonable D&D Community outside of the General Discussions subforum.
Was it a self-inflected wound that kicked this whole thing off?
The disappearing threads and messages occurring in the forums have accomplished something.
They caused me to go examine the legal case that keeps getting bandied around as the justification for why Hasbro and WOTC suddenly need all this power to "protect themselves" from the terrible things going on in it.
One should never find anything amusing in these lawsuits but I did once I saw how pathetic this great threat HASBRO and WOTC is worried about and how this is important to Hasbro so suddenly.
First let me say I despise bigots of all types. Does not matter race, religion, sex, they are all closed minds and small souls. I have been in an interracial marriage for over 45 years and there’s a town not an hour drive from where we live that my family and I are definitely not welcome in. The Constitution does allow Americans (even bigots) to have free expression so I have to put up with them.
Under the United States Constitution and laws, you cannot go after someone by claiming they are discriminating against you because they never mentioned you in their book or game. That’s a really hard argument to make in court. There is without a doubt racism there but there is also an illustration of the same race (excuse me, species) the complainants had in their products a few months ago. Even if that unpleasant fact was not there under the Constitution, they can get away with it so why is Hasbro suddenly concerned after all these years under the old OGL? They would have no concerns except:
HASBRO forgot to renew certain trademark(s) in question. They basically legally abandoned them and someone else grabbed the trademark(s) legally. These included “TSR, Star Frontiers, and other related marks in a timely fashion as required under federal law”.
The legal system in effect in America allows that if someone abandons something someone else can claim it if it is done in a legal fashion. Negligence is what I think happened here and until this morning I never knew HASBRO had failed to keep the trademark(s) in this case registered like federal law has required.
They are trying to cover their negligence with a weak plea to common trademark law but there IS a reason the Patent and Trademark office exists.
HASBRO really screwed up here. This is my opinion and I am not a lawyer or giving legal advice nor do I expect to sit on a jury on this.
I do expect, after reading up on this case, for a decision to be a much closer thing then I did at first glance.
In my opinion there are despicable things on both sides of this case but this is America where one can say despicable things. One does have to follow the law and that includes paying to legally keep your stuff registered with the United States Patent and Trademark Office. Trying to cover your negligence with a weak plea to common trademark law and shouting racism and other things does not work in a courtroom but does in a forum.
In conclusion, in my not a lawyer opinion, Hasbro screwed up in a very basic manner that has NOTHING to do with the OGL. They plain out failed to do their required paperwork to keep their trademark (s) and someone else acquired them legally at the US Patent and Trademark office.
One wonders how this fact is not in any other post on these forums.
This smoke screen on racism and transphobia is to hide that fact to the general public, but a court should not and likely will not give any merit to it if it is protected speech under the Constitution, even if we have to hold our noses while it happens because there is some fire under the smoke.
What kicked it off is some new execs from predatory companies were hired and they decided the same anti competitive and predatory actions under the guise of "think of the children" would let them build a mediocre VTT and make Fortnight money.
Your conclusion is straight up wrong. While it is true they let the registration on the trademark lapse, that is irrelevant to the analysis.
All you need for a trademark is a mark that you use in commerce. Registration is completely optional. That is why some things use “™” to designate something is their trademark, and others use “®” to designate their registered trademark.
Wizards was and is still using the trademarks for “Star Frontiers” and “TSR” in commerce. As such, they get trademark protections regardless of whether registered or not. The lapse in paperwork is completely irrelevant for your analysis - Gygax had no right to use the ™ at issue.
The United States Patent and Trademark office disagree with you...so does Hasbro in their filings with the Court but keep keep on doing what you are doing, your remarks will never be deleted unlike others who have a different opinion.
So how do you know if Wizards is still using the trademarks for “Star Frontiers” and “TSR” in commerce so quickly if I may ask? Are you representing Hasbro or WOTC?
It took me a while to find out Hasbro lost their injunction on 22 December 2022 but there is no mention in it of their "still using the trademarks for “Star Frontiers” and “TSR” in commerce" that I can find even to this moment.
If there was, I am sure a court would look to see if anything that was there was started after the second company legally acquired the trademark, would it not?
In addition, ff I was working on the case for Hasbro or WOTC or the defendant company or one of the many companies getting involved in this dust up I would feel the need to disclose that.
Wrong on both counts. Common law trademark is very much a thing that exists (and has since the Roman Empire), and exists irrespective of registration with the PTO. And, as for your claim that Wizards admits they have no trademark protections—an easily disproven falsehood. They literally claim common law protections in their pleading:
That assumption is incorrect. Despite the expiration of the registrations, Wizards has maintainted its common law trademark rights in the Marks because it has continued to use the Marks in commerce.
Sorry, but you are wrong on this—maybe rather than assert things you admit you are not an expert on and try to imply you have read documents you clearly did not, you could admit you made a mistake? Or are you implying that Wizard attorneys are making up a “common law trademark” that does not exist, and that you, a self-styled non-lawyer who apparently doesn’t know the difference between the two different trademark symbols, know the law better than they do?
Easy. As a lawyer, particularly one who finds the quagmire that is IP law interesting and has some some IP work, and as a D&D player, I have been keeping an eye on the case and actually read the pleadings. They are available for public consumption.
I also just generally know that Wizards licenses out its old rulebooks, such as Star Frontiers or other content branded TSR for sale on DriveThruRPG - that is textbook use in commerce.
Just back from lunch and seeing your post. What you say makes sense. Thanks.
Just came back to this and finally noticed you had said
"you are not an expert on and try to imply you have read documents you clearly did not"
While I admit I am not a lawyer I can read and am not a liar as you said I was.
Everything is pretty much available for when the case numbered 2:21-cv-01705 goes up this coming October. I will just include from document 1 filed 12/29/21
"Despite these repeated requests, Defendant has provided no evidence to support Defendant’s contention that the marks have been in continuous use by Defendant since 1997."
"To date, no information has been provided by Defendant regarding the licensing agreements it alleges it has with two distributors of its products or Defendant’s own use of the
Marks at Issue."
"The registration for the Game Wizards Logo owned by TSR, Inc.(USPTO Registration Number 1241135) was deemed abandoned by the USPTO on November 20, 1989 prior to Defendant’s purchase of TSR, Inc. assets;"
In the end we shall see how it goes if it is not settled by October but I wish I had noticed your comment earlier...
By the way, if Star Frontier has always been and still is available for sale at the Drive Thru RPG website where is it and why did the law firm WOTC use not provide during discovery as ordered along with sales records?
The only thing with Star Frontiers in it at drivethrurpg is owned Frontier Explorer which is not WOTC. If you want I can include the ttabvue.uspto.gov website documents for the case.
You are right, I am not a lawyer, but I am not stupid or a liar either.
You may not be a liar, but if so you're misinformed or misreading because you didn't read far enough. Go back to DriveThru RPG and scroll down past issue 25 of The Frontiersmen ... and there you will find everything from the original Star Frontiers line available, many in multiple file formats (pdf and HC/SC print on demand) all listed as from "Wizards of the Coast". If you looked further into what The Starsfrontiersmen was (basic Google) it wasn't hard to determine that Star Frontiersmen was created within a fan effort to keep the original Star Froniters in circulation ... until about 2018 where it got take down notices, that were renegotiated so the "fan content" it created originally could still be made available _for free_ (they were trying to sell issues) after their magazine was scrubbed of all Dragon magazine content. I actually remember a bunch of this because every now and then I get nostalgic about the original Star Frontiers and know the Star Frontiersmen crowd have been doing their stuff since at least GeoCities was one the most common TTRPG fan web hosts, and you looked them up via Alta Vista.
As for your "legal reading," I'd trust Caerwyn's perspective here. I'm not being condescending when I say if they offer to teach you how to read legal documents, take them up on it. You are untrained in legal writing and research, whereas Caerwyn actually gets paid to do corporate law and has been reading the docket. I think it's clear who knows what they're talking about and who's upset because their theory is getting shot up. Really if you can't read past 25 entries on a Drive Thru RPG product list, I'm not going to have a lot of confidence in your ability to grok legal filings.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Actually, the entire internet is just two people arguing with each other. And some cat videos.
Two AIs arguing with each other.
15 hours ago none of those other things showed up for a search on Star Frontier. 8 hours after I posted all this you come on and now all this WOTC stuff pulls ups in a search just for Star Frontier. Why is that now occurring? What does Dragonlance and the 2e Players handbook now show up in a search just for Star Frontier? Were they too quick in adding it? In any case the fact fan content does not count in a legal case or a google search for what was but what does count is when asked in discovery and they did not provide
I will let it go at this since Caerwyn_Glyndwr: apparently has friends in authority here or maybe they just prefer his side of the discussion.
Can't say any more on it.
Right, Caerwyn Glyndwr is protected by the Illuminati, who altered Drive Thru RPG's catalog to protect him in an argument between you and him on D&D Beyond forums ... or you could have simply made a mistake. That you're doubling down on conspiracy theory instead of, "Ok, I was wrong, let me see how this effects my argument" you went full conspiracy to discredit you on DDB says, honestly I don't know what to call it.
Again, I jumped into this discussion because I actually know something about the history of the original Star Frontiers and its internet fan community. I was aware of the folks behind the Frontiersmen and the original Star Frontiers scene going back to at least the 90s. You were clearly cherry picking info about material you didn't really know all that much about. I get it. Sometimes, especially on the internet, when you've made the mistake to commit to a in the grand scheme of things an inconsequential fight, people see what they want to see in a "rush to be right." I've done it too. I've just never blamed having an incorrect understanding on some conspiracy that exists to protect one dude on the Internet arguing in a relatively low traffic space with another dude on the internet.
I sincerely appreciate you not saying more on this, for your sake. I hope other "partisans" being duped into boosting some bad faith influencers' engagement rates do so too. And then maybe folks can have a reasonable conversation about the OGL amidst what's usually a pretty reasonable D&D Community outside of the General Discussions subforum.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.