Keith Baker, the creator - but not owner- of Eberron weighs in on the OGL. Sharing so that people can see how even existing D&D content that WotC publishes may suffer due to their questionable decisions and actions. If you are a patreon of his you can vote on his poll:
I’m facing a difficult decision, and I’d like to get your opinion on it.
I love Eberron. There are many corners of the setting I've yet to explore and many details I’ve imagined that I’ve yet to share. But the simple fact is that it’s not mine. Eberron is wholly owned by Wizards of the Coast, and that limits what I can do with it. If I make a sourcebook or adventure, it has to be sold on the DM’s Guild, with everything that entails. I can’t write a new Eberron novel. Twogether Studios makes card games, but I can’t create a card game for Eberron. And, of course, I can’t create Eberron content for any system other than D&D. Beyond this, none of us know what is going to happen with Hasbro and WotC over the next year. What if they decide to stop allowing community-created Eberron content? Eberron is my best-known creation and D&D is currently the most widespread system, but there are limits and risks to putting all of my creative energy into developing content I don’t actually own.
Over the last three years I’ve been working on Frontiers of Eberron: Threshold. This adds a new layer to the setting—wandslingers and westerns—as well as creating new locations and adding details to places largely undeveloped in canon. Which raises the question: does it need to be in Eberron? Threshold is a town that doesn’t exist in canon Eberron, mining a resource that doesn’t exist in canon Eberron, next to a trade road that canonically is in a different location, using wandslinging rules that aren’t part of core D&D. It’s intentionally beyond the parts of the setting that have been well defined. The core concept is that it’s set on the border between a nation shaped by wide magic and a nation shaped by wide monster. But given that it’s largely adding more to Eberron canon than it’s drawing on… does it need to be in Eberron?
If I decide to take Frontiers in a new direction, it won’t just be Eberron with the names changed. I love creating worlds, and if I do this I’m going to create something new. It would explore some of the same themes as Eberron, but it will also explore cultures, concepts, and themes that don’t exist in Eberron. It would draw on other ideas that I’ve been working over the last few years that were never tied to Eberron. It would still focus on a frontier between industry and mystery, between magic and monsters. It would still be Threshold. But it wouldn’t be Eberron.
If I do this, it doesn’t mean that I’ll be abandoning Eberron. I’d still answer questions and write iFAQs, and I'd want to share outtakes from Frontiers that wouldn’t translate to a new setting. But I’ll be doing less Eberron because I’ll be devoting my creative energy toward creating the new frontier. However, it also means that you’ll be along for the ride as I create that new world, and get to see pieces of it as it comes together.
So. You are all my patrons. What do YOU want to see? Would you prefer that I remain focused on Eberron, even if that means it’s restricted to DM’s Guild and Dungeons & Dragons? Or are you interested in seeing what I will do with a new Frontier? Again, I’m not going to be bound by the results of this poll—but knowing your gut reaction to this idea is important to me.
It sucks that Keith is in this position. Eberron is the best setting in 5e by a country mile, and its fans benefit enormously from Keith's prolific and masterful worldbuilding. I'm not a Patron of the man, but I either have or intend to get both his DMGuild Eberron books and enjoy his content a lot more than I enjoy Wizards default. But I very much understand his issues with being a freelance creator best known for a property he has no control over. Wherever he takes Threshold, I wish him well and I wish I could offer my thanks for a wonderful way to play 5e.
But I very much understand his issues with being a freelance creator best known for a property he has no control over
Of course, that has nothing really to do directly with the OGL, even if the brouhaha has pushed issues like creator rights a little more to the forefront
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
True enough, though I can easily see him being nervous about Hasbro's whole Digital Pivot and where it will leave creators like him that aren't necessarily aboard the MTX train. Frankly I'm surprised we've gotten as much Eberron as we have. Always wanted to see what they'd make of an Eberron adventure, but I know that's never in the cards. Exandria only got one because it was close enough to the Realms that Netherdeep could cross pollinate, but an Eberron adventure will never be playable in anything but Eberron.
Even if what he makes isn't directly impacted, WotC's whole decision to even attempt to pull something like this has shown creators that lawsuits and copyright nonsense is all back on the table in WotC's eyes - the OGL when it was made came with a sort of gentleman's agreement that WotC wouldn't be suing artists left and right like they'd been doing before, and it was a way for the company and community to come together again, and the community felt secure enough to make content without the risk of legal action taken against them by a giant corporation.
Now, I'm not sure any creator can think that, even if WotC decided to turn around and do a full 180 and promise us that nothing would change, they made a big mistake, nevermind on ALL of this [which, they'll never do] the trust that was there is broken because... well, we know they're thinking about it. It's on their mind, it's in the board room, it's a thing they're considering. That alone is the risk, really, because with Corporations it's just a matter of time before they try and do it again because now this person's in power and they think making the same mistake is gonna work out great for them!
Sucks to be in this position, I can't imagine having to abandon a world/property I've been working on like this for a long time and make something new if that's not really what you want to be doing, but I get it. I wouldn't want to be under Wizard's foot either, they've proven they can make monumentally bad decisions in the blink of an eye, and they don't exactly course correct quickly...
As a creator for a published setting, I feel his indecision. My first love is D&D, but can I truly trust them any longer. Perhaps a different system and/or different license would be best?
But I very much understand his issues with being a freelance creator best known for a property he has no control over
Of course, that has nothing really to do directly with the OGL, even if the brouhaha has pushed issues like creator rights a little more to the forefront
This. His general (and reasonable) anxieties around the overall future of D&D and Hascoast aside, nothing in this post has anything to do with the OGL directly, so the thread topic is a bit misleading.
If he decides to make Frontiers a separate setting from Eberron, that could end up being OGL-related, but he'll be able to publish it under either ORC or the OGL (or even both), and their respective mechanics/SRDs.
This. His general (and reasonable) anxieties around the overall future of D&D and Hascoast aside, nothing in this post has anything to do with the OGL directly, so the thread topic is a bit misleading.
If he decides to make Frontiers a separate setting from Eberron, that could end up being OGL-related, but he'll be able to publish it under either ORC or the OGL (or even both), and their respective mechanics/SRDs.
The fallout of the OGL is about the future of D&D. Lots of people are missing this point. What NEW content will D&D have in the FUTURE.
This statement is COMPLETELY about the OGL - because Keith Baker is saying that right now he is leaning in the direction of NOT using WOTC OGL.
If people like Eberron - that's great - but again, as with other great and creative content owned by WOTC - what I am seeing in this release is you will only get recycled stuff in the future. Nothing new or interesting. Whatever you have now is all that you will ever have. Eberron will not grow or expand.
I don't think it will be possible to publish the same content under both the OGL and the ORC. You can't give two different groups equal control of IP, especially not as the OGL 1.2 is written. From what I am reading between the lines is that Keith Baker is going in the direction of ORC.
This. His general (and reasonable) anxieties around the overall future of D&D and Hascoast aside, nothing in this post has anything to do with the OGL directly, so the thread topic is a bit misleading.
If he decides to make Frontiers a separate setting from Eberron, that could end up being OGL-related, but he'll be able to publish it under either ORC or the OGL (or even both), and their respective mechanics/SRDs.
The fallout of the OGL is about the future of D&D. Lots of people are missing this point. What NEW content will D&D have in the FUTURE.
This statement is COMPLETELY about the OGL - because Keith Baker is saying that right now he is leaning in the direction of NOT using WOTC OGL.
If people like Eberron - that's great - but again, as with other great and creative content owned by WOTC - what I am seeing in this release is you will only get recycled stuff in the future. Nothing new or interesting. Whatever you have now is all that you will ever have. Eberron will not grow or expand.
I don't think it will be possible to publish the same content under both the OGL and the ORC. You can't give two different groups equal control of IP, especially not as the OGL 1.2 is written. From what I am reading between the lines is that Keith Baker is going in the direction of ORC.
Eh, I have to turn my head and squint to see OGL based commentary. He does sound frustrated that his hands are so tied for Eberron, but that appears to be because of a wholly separate license/agreement he’s under. That’s the crux of the issue, and it’s really rather apples to oranges to the OGL. The OGL covers wholly independent producers creating content that integrates aspects of D&D, while Eberron is the result of an official WotC project, and that’s a very different dynamic as WotC itself was the one to ultimately commission its production.
You could try to make a case that this example and the OGL tie together into some larger narrative, but I think that would be stretching a bit.
Would you prefer that I remain focused on Eberron, even if that means it’s restricted to DM’s Guild and Dungeons & Dragons?
We will call this the "WOTC" option - either OGL 1.x or more restrictive like DM's Guild.
Option 2:
Or are you interested in seeing what I will do with a new Frontier?
We will call this the "Not WOTC" option. Note he says "what I will do with" it, not what he will do together with WOTC or anyone else. This sounds like self-publishing not through DM's guild and not OGL 1.x (that is the first option) - but instead through another avenue. Unless we come up with another avenue than DM's Guild, OGL 1.x or ORC - and since two of those were the previous option - then this means he is deciding between ORC or WOTC.
His Exploring Eberron (probably the best setting book for 5e I've seen btw), is on the DM's guild so it isn't under ogl but under the DMG licence (which is way stricter then OGL). So no his post isn't about OGL specifically, but about the message that the new OGL sends. I, for one, would love, seeing new (system agnostic) setting made by him released under some actually open license.
Yeah, Keith's pinch here isn't really related to the OGL at all save that the whole situation has him feeling the same uncertainty that all creatives are laboring under right now. Eberron is Keith Baker's creation, but he created it on commission from Wizards of the Coast. They own the IP, they can dictate what can and cannot be done with it. Doesn't matter what the OGL says because Eberron is an in-house, first party product.
I admit that I would absolutely love a "Wandslingers and Westerns" supplement for 5e and would buy the absolute shit out of Threshold for 5e. But frankly, if Keith wants to release it as a system agnostic supplement (however that works) or as part of another system, I'd still take a look and see if I could make it work. The man is exceptional at what he does. But I can understand his pain all too well.
Yeah, Keith's pinch here isn't really related to the OGL at all save that the whole situation has him feeling the same uncertainty that all creatives are laboring under right now. Eberron is Keith Baker's creation, but he created it on commission from Wizards of the Coast. They own the IP, they can dictate what can and cannot be done with it. Doesn't matter what the OGL says because Eberron is an in-house, first party product.
I admit that I would absolutely love a "Wandslingers and Westerns" supplement for 5e and would buy the absolute shit out of Threshold for 5e. But frankly, if Keith wants to release it as a system agnostic supplement (however that works) or as part of another system, I'd still take a look and see if I could make it work. The man is exceptional at what he does. But I can understand his pain all too well.
Yeah, the system agnostic is the best case scenario for me, but I would too "buy the absolute shit out of" it even if it was 5e/6e only (even when I am not planning to switch to 6e). Really hope the guy manages to get some better deal for himself from this one.
This. His general (and reasonable) anxieties around the overall future of D&D and Hascoast aside, nothing in this post has anything to do with the OGL directly, so the thread topic is a bit misleading.
If he decides to make Frontiers a separate setting from Eberron, that could end up being OGL-related, but he'll be able to publish it under either ORC or the OGL (or even both), and their respective mechanics/SRDs.
The fallout of the OGL is about the future of D&D. Lots of people are missing this point. What NEW content will D&D have in the FUTURE.
This statement is COMPLETELY about the OGL - because Keith Baker is saying that right now he is leaning in the direction of NOT using WOTC OGL.
If people like Eberron - that's great - but again, as with other great and creative content owned by WOTC - what I am seeing in this release is you will only get recycled stuff in the future. Nothing new or interesting. Whatever you have now is all that you will ever have. Eberron will not grow or expand.
I don't think it will be possible to publish the same content under both the OGL and the ORC. You can't give two different groups equal control of IP, especially not as the OGL 1.2 is written. From what I am reading between the lines is that Keith Baker is going in the direction of ORC.
My point is that you could never print Eberron content under the OGL. So deciding if he wants to make more of it or not, is not an OGL decision., it's a "future of WotC" decision. Which is related to the OGL fallout, but only indirectly.
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Keith Baker, the creator - but not owner- of Eberron weighs in on the OGL. Sharing so that people can see how even existing D&D content that WotC publishes may suffer due to their questionable decisions and actions. If you are a patreon of his you can vote on his poll:
I’m facing a difficult decision, and I’d like to get your opinion on it.
I love Eberron. There are many corners of the setting I've yet to explore and many details I’ve imagined that I’ve yet to share. But the simple fact is that it’s not mine. Eberron is wholly owned by Wizards of the Coast, and that limits what I can do with it. If I make a sourcebook or adventure, it has to be sold on the DM’s Guild, with everything that entails. I can’t write a new Eberron novel. Twogether Studios makes card games, but I can’t create a card game for Eberron. And, of course, I can’t create Eberron content for any system other than D&D. Beyond this, none of us know what is going to happen with Hasbro and WotC over the next year. What if they decide to stop allowing community-created Eberron content? Eberron is my best-known creation and D&D is currently the most widespread system, but there are limits and risks to putting all of my creative energy into developing content I don’t actually own.
Over the last three years I’ve been working on Frontiers of Eberron: Threshold. This adds a new layer to the setting—wandslingers and westerns—as well as creating new locations and adding details to places largely undeveloped in canon. Which raises the question: does it need to be in Eberron? Threshold is a town that doesn’t exist in canon Eberron, mining a resource that doesn’t exist in canon Eberron, next to a trade road that canonically is in a different location, using wandslinging rules that aren’t part of core D&D. It’s intentionally beyond the parts of the setting that have been well defined. The core concept is that it’s set on the border between a nation shaped by wide magic and a nation shaped by wide monster. But given that it’s largely adding more to Eberron canon than it’s drawing on… does it need to be in Eberron?
If I decide to take Frontiers in a new direction, it won’t just be Eberron with the names changed. I love creating worlds, and if I do this I’m going to create something new. It would explore some of the same themes as Eberron, but it will also explore cultures, concepts, and themes that don’t exist in Eberron. It would draw on other ideas that I’ve been working over the last few years that were never tied to Eberron. It would still focus on a frontier between industry and mystery, between magic and monsters. It would still be Threshold. But it wouldn’t be Eberron.
If I do this, it doesn’t mean that I’ll be abandoning Eberron. I’d still answer questions and write iFAQs, and I'd want to share outtakes from Frontiers that wouldn’t translate to a new setting. But I’ll be doing less Eberron because I’ll be devoting my creative energy toward creating the new frontier. However, it also means that you’ll be along for the ride as I create that new world, and get to see pieces of it as it comes together.
So. You are all my patrons. What do YOU want to see? Would you prefer that I remain focused on Eberron, even if that means it’s restricted to DM’s Guild and Dungeons & Dragons? Or are you interested in seeing what I will do with a new Frontier? Again, I’m not going to be bound by the results of this poll—but knowing your gut reaction to this idea is important to me.
Link to post: https://www.patreon.com/posts/patron-poll-new-77741503
It sucks that Keith is in this position. Eberron is the best setting in 5e by a country mile, and its fans benefit enormously from Keith's prolific and masterful worldbuilding. I'm not a Patron of the man, but I either have or intend to get both his DMGuild Eberron books and enjoy his content a lot more than I enjoy Wizards default. But I very much understand his issues with being a freelance creator best known for a property he has no control over. Wherever he takes Threshold, I wish him well and I wish I could offer my thanks for a wonderful way to play 5e.
Please do not contact or message me.
Of course, that has nothing really to do directly with the OGL, even if the brouhaha has pushed issues like creator rights a little more to the forefront
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
True enough, though I can easily see him being nervous about Hasbro's whole Digital Pivot and where it will leave creators like him that aren't necessarily aboard the MTX train. Frankly I'm surprised we've gotten as much Eberron as we have. Always wanted to see what they'd make of an Eberron adventure, but I know that's never in the cards. Exandria only got one because it was close enough to the Realms that Netherdeep could cross pollinate, but an Eberron adventure will never be playable in anything but Eberron.
Please do not contact or message me.
Even if what he makes isn't directly impacted, WotC's whole decision to even attempt to pull something like this has shown creators that lawsuits and copyright nonsense is all back on the table in WotC's eyes - the OGL when it was made came with a sort of gentleman's agreement that WotC wouldn't be suing artists left and right like they'd been doing before, and it was a way for the company and community to come together again, and the community felt secure enough to make content without the risk of legal action taken against them by a giant corporation.
Now, I'm not sure any creator can think that, even if WotC decided to turn around and do a full 180 and promise us that nothing would change, they made a big mistake, nevermind on ALL of this [which, they'll never do] the trust that was there is broken because... well, we know they're thinking about it. It's on their mind, it's in the board room, it's a thing they're considering. That alone is the risk, really, because with Corporations it's just a matter of time before they try and do it again because now this person's in power and they think making the same mistake is gonna work out great for them!
Sucks to be in this position, I can't imagine having to abandon a world/property I've been working on like this for a long time and make something new if that's not really what you want to be doing, but I get it. I wouldn't want to be under Wizard's foot either, they've proven they can make monumentally bad decisions in the blink of an eye, and they don't exactly course correct quickly...
As a creator for a published setting, I feel his indecision. My first love is D&D, but can I truly trust them any longer. Perhaps a different system and/or different license would be best?
This. His general (and reasonable) anxieties around the overall future of D&D and Hascoast aside, nothing in this post has anything to do with the OGL directly, so the thread topic is a bit misleading.
If he decides to make Frontiers a separate setting from Eberron, that could end up being OGL-related, but he'll be able to publish it under either ORC or the OGL (or even both), and their respective mechanics/SRDs.
The fallout of the OGL is about the future of D&D. Lots of people are missing this point. What NEW content will D&D have in the FUTURE.
This statement is COMPLETELY about the OGL - because Keith Baker is saying that right now he is leaning in the direction of NOT using WOTC OGL.
If people like Eberron - that's great - but again, as with other great and creative content owned by WOTC - what I am seeing in this release is you will only get recycled stuff in the future. Nothing new or interesting. Whatever you have now is all that you will ever have. Eberron will not grow or expand.
I don't think it will be possible to publish the same content under both the OGL and the ORC. You can't give two different groups equal control of IP, especially not as the OGL 1.2 is written. From what I am reading between the lines is that Keith Baker is going in the direction of ORC.
Eh, I have to turn my head and squint to see OGL based commentary. He does sound frustrated that his hands are so tied for Eberron, but that appears to be because of a wholly separate license/agreement he’s under. That’s the crux of the issue, and it’s really rather apples to oranges to the OGL. The OGL covers wholly independent producers creating content that integrates aspects of D&D, while Eberron is the result of an official WotC project, and that’s a very different dynamic as WotC itself was the one to ultimately commission its production.
You could try to make a case that this example and the OGL tie together into some larger narrative, but I think that would be stretching a bit.
It's clear he placed two options:
Option 1:
We will call this the "WOTC" option - either OGL 1.x or more restrictive like DM's Guild.
Option 2:
We will call this the "Not WOTC" option. Note he says "what I will do with" it, not what he will do together with WOTC or anyone else. This sounds like self-publishing not through DM's guild and not OGL 1.x (that is the first option) - but instead through another avenue. Unless we come up with another avenue than DM's Guild, OGL 1.x or ORC - and since two of those were the previous option - then this means he is deciding between ORC or WOTC.
Pretty basic deduction.
His Exploring Eberron (probably the best setting book for 5e I've seen btw), is on the DM's guild so it isn't under ogl but under the DMG licence (which is way stricter then OGL). So no his post isn't about OGL specifically, but about the message that the new OGL sends. I, for one, would love, seeing new (system agnostic) setting made by him released under some actually open license.
Yeah, Keith's pinch here isn't really related to the OGL at all save that the whole situation has him feeling the same uncertainty that all creatives are laboring under right now. Eberron is Keith Baker's creation, but he created it on commission from Wizards of the Coast. They own the IP, they can dictate what can and cannot be done with it. Doesn't matter what the OGL says because Eberron is an in-house, first party product.
I admit that I would absolutely love a "Wandslingers and Westerns" supplement for 5e and would buy the absolute shit out of Threshold for 5e. But frankly, if Keith wants to release it as a system agnostic supplement (however that works) or as part of another system, I'd still take a look and see if I could make it work. The man is exceptional at what he does. But I can understand his pain all too well.
Please do not contact or message me.
Yeah, the system agnostic is the best case scenario for me, but I would too "buy the absolute shit out of" it even if it was 5e/6e only (even when I am not planning to switch to 6e). Really hope the guy manages to get some better deal for himself from this one.
My point is that you could never print Eberron content under the OGL. So deciding if he wants to make more of it or not, is not an OGL decision., it's a "future of WotC" decision. Which is related to the OGL fallout, but only indirectly.