Already started moving over to the Demiplane Nexus Alpha. Looks promising and I will probably stick with it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The age of OGL is over. The Time of the ORC has come!
The moment that WotC declares OGL 1.0a "de-authorized", "revoked" or any such nonsense is the moment I release as much content as possible under OGL 1.0a and say, "Sue me WotC". OGL1.0a cannot be revoked. If thousands of us do it, the countersuit will be a class action suit.
I have stayed subbed throughout. I do not like the direction of the company, the new artwork, or the direction they are taking much of the system and lore; however, my group and I have tried other systems and prefer 5th ed…for the most part.
Our plan is to selectively take inspiration from future releases, remove the nonsense, then decide if we will invest any money beyond basic D&D Beyond subs. No more investing with out testing, and likely going to print, since the future of this app seems to be in question.
I have stayed subbed throughout. I do not like the direction of the company, the new artwork, or the direction they are taking much of the system and lore; however, my group and I have tried other systems and prefer 5th ed…for the most part.
Our plan is to selectively take inspiration from future releases, remove the nonsense, then decide if we will invest any money beyond basic D&D Beyond subs. No more investing with out testing, and likely going to print, since the future of this app seems to be in question.
I also hate the artwork of the most recent edition.
Elsewhere when I pointed out how it pales in comparison to that of the likes of Caldwell, Elmore, Easley, or Parkinson someone said Wizards "don't have the money" to pay for such artwork and I laughed so hard I thought I might die.
They have the money. They just don't want to spend it.
Some smaller publishers are said to pay their writers and artists better than Wizards do theirs.
Wizards cut costs. And it shows in their artwork and it shows in the quality—or lack of rather—of their physical books compared to those of other companies many of which are practically works of art themselves.
Our group was definitely not aware of that. We have not as of yet invested in many third party supplements, but if is true they are treating their creators better, than we might start.
Nah, I'm done. This whole thing has made me feel gross about ever supporting WotC again. I used to buy every sourcebook, and I bought the handful of adventures I didn't have shortly before this debacle started... but 1) this smacks of "give them what they want, then try again when they forget," and 2) this gave me a reason to look at Pathfinder 2e and I honestly like it way more.
So yeah, WotC needs to go the extra mile for me to care again. Too many greedy decisions over the past little while (**** forced sourcebook/adventure bundles) for me to accept even a return to the status quo - we gave them chances and they threw it in our faces. Not coming back unless they genuinely demonstrate extra effort to supporting the community-driven experience that _actually_ makes the game good.
I think he might mean that even though it still works quite decently for having your characters at hand.
The updates feel lack luster. Less personal and more sterile. No more streams, some books still have to be implemented correctly. It does feel like the evolution that felt constant at DnDbeyond had stopped. Or at least slowed down incredibly imho.
I think he might mean that even though it still works quite decently for having your characters at hand.
The updates feel lack luster. Less personal and more sterile. No more streams, some books still have to be implemented correctly. It does feel like the evolution that felt constant at DnDbeyond had stopped. Or at least slowed down incredibly imho.
That's part of it. I subscribed years ago in part because of the potential I saw for Beyond as a platform, rather than just the contemporary state. I don't think Beyond has made much progress toward that potential at all in the past two years. I homebrew a lot, for instance, and a homebrew revamp was removed from the public roadmap a long time ago after having been teased for over a year.
There's also the issue of the company having almost entirely shed its user-facing moderators. There is almost zero engagement nowadays, which makes me feel less inclined to sub on the grounds of supporting people who supported us. The engagement we get nowadays is almost entirely the remaining mods putting out fires (I certainly am not blaming the mods).
Overall the site is just stagnant and decidedly less fun than it used to be. After WotC acquired Beyond, something important broke, and if the acquisition couldn't reinvigorate the platform, my individual subscription sure won't.
I must say that I always thought of D&D Beyond as "digital publishing" (and I suspect that's what WotC considers it to be), so the fact it's not updating stuff I don't use is... not particularly concerning. But then again, I was never subscribed in the first place, because if I'm not running games via DDB I don't need to be.
The updates feel lack luster. Less personal and more sterile. No more streams, some books still have to be implemented correctly. It does feel like the evolution that felt constant at DnDbeyond had stopped. Or at least slowed down incredibly imho.
Exactly this. I don't see much reason to resubscribe because I don't know what exactly that money is funding anymore. Before, there were clear plans and goals in place to make DDB an even better campaign hub (shareable inventories, item trading between players in the same campaign, updates to make the homebrew system less tedious, among others). There has been no visible progress on any of those in years, and simple aspects of many of the released books are still not implemented.
Strixhaven was released December 7, 2021 - just over a year ago. There is no support for any of the unique rules for characters beyond "put it in your Notes section."
Van Richten's was released May 18, 2021 - well over a year ago. Still no support for Dark Gifts, Sanity, or any of the other variant/optional rules presented there.
Mythic Odysseys of Theros was released July 21, 2020 - about two and a half years ago. Still no support for Piety or Supernatural Gifts.
Still no support for variant rules presented in the DMG, even though this was promised back when Adam was in charge.
I understand these are very niche things that only impact a small percentage of games, but all of the things listed above are official D&D content and it seems weird that they aren't fully supported by what is now the official digital platform for D&D. Especially since I, as a simple user of the platform, could replicate most of those features in X0 minutes by making Homebrew feats. If it's that easy for me to do, why is it so hard to update the site to just natively support them?
Back when Adam was in charge, there was constant communication about what was going on behind the scenes - even if we didn't get to know everything. I still remember the agonizing wait for the character sheet revamp, and getting excited for the Dev Update for any new info or even just a glance at it. That revamp was teased for months, and the team was very clear about letting the community know what features it would include at launch and what would be added later.
Now... what is being developed? What is being worked on? As far as I can tell, my subscription pays for someone to type up whatever text is in the newest book, link some tooltips, and call it a day. Or design new digital dice and character sheet cosmetics. Those are nice, sure, but surface-level updates don't replace substance.
If I see any notable progress or developments on the site, I'll consider resubbing. But as it stands, it feels like flushing money down the drain.
I didn't unsubscribed because I'm in the middle of a campaign I'm DMing, but maybe I will when this campaign ends in a few months.
I'm not sure yet if I'll still be playing DnD after this campaign. This whole OGL story opened my eyes on other TTRPG (I spent more cash in DCC this month than in DND last year...). The only certain thing right now is that I won't purchase any more content on DDB. Even if those are only rumors, the idea that the next step is paying $30/month to get access to full content annoys me. I'll stick to what I have until WoTC communicate on a clear roadmap about DDB.
DnD is not a game I can play often enough to accept a more expensive subscription. It's not a question of price; it's a question of being rational. And if the rumor appears to be true, then it means WoTC doesn't pay attention to the kind of players/DM like me who struggles to gather its players once a month (twice when lucky).
WoTC already lost me as a MtG player (who used to spend a lot of money in it !) and are on the fence to lose me as a DnD player (but I know they don't give a shit about it...).
Personally I think Hasbro needs to clean house with the executives that keep making mistakes with the D&D brand and the community. They are massively out of touch with the gamers that play the game - like a parent overseeing a child. From the Hadozee controversy, to OneDND(aka 5.5e), to the OGL, to VTT's, and then to Kyle Brink's recent statements... they show a massive lack of leadership and seem to be fumbling from one screw up to the next. I'm not renewing till someone appoints a Marvel style executive officer ala Kevin Feige who knows the D&D brand and loves it enough to make it an amazing product for all gamers.
@kotath That is a fair statement, but my point is that currently nobody is running the show. They need to appoint 1 person with a clear vision that has "fan service" in-mind when making decisions. I'm all for corporate profits as long as it is presented properly to the community. Corporate profit has be driven by a market demand.
Right now, I believe I will not resubscribe. I am awaiting an apology from the executive producer that insulted my category of gamer and I got warned for stating this.
Personally I think Hasbro needs to clean house with the executives that keep making mistakes with the D&D brand and the community. They are massively out of touch with the gamers that play the game - like a parent overseeing a child. From the Hadozee controversy, to OneDND(aka 5.5e), to the OGL, to VTT's, and then to Kyle Brink's recent statements... they show a massive lack of leadership and seem to be fumbling from one screw up to the next. I'm not renewing till someone appoints a Marvel style executive officer ala Kevin Feige who knows the D&D brand and loves it enough to make it an amazing product for all gamers.
I meant there are many many people who would tell you that Feige has destroyed marvel especially with the recent set of movies and tv shows. I am also struggling to see how any of the issues you list apart possibly from the OGL are executive decisions gone wrong. Executives are not writing one dnd, and we have not seen the completed product, an executive did not write the Hadozee, and I don’t see why DnD wanting to get into the VTT space is controversial. And the Kyle Brink statement shows that the problem has been identified and is being rectified. In fact if anything his statement shows he needs to be the one fired because he dropped the ball. Now I don’t think anyone should be fired over the OGL it is far more important that the company learn the lessons and apply them, and they are, which is far far more then many many many other companies would do in this situation.
Personally I think Hasbro needs to clean house with the executives that keep making mistakes with the D&D brand and the community. They are massively out of touch with the gamers that play the game - like a parent overseeing a child. From the Hadozee controversy, to OneDND(aka 5.5e), to the OGL, to VTT's, and then to Kyle Brink's recent statements... they show a massive lack of leadership and seem to be fumbling from one screw up to the next. I'm not renewing till someone appoints a Marvel style executive officer ala Kevin Feige who knows the D&D brand and loves it enough to make it an amazing product for all gamers.
I meant there are many many people who would tell you that Feige has destroyed marvel especially with the recent set of movies and tv shows. I am also struggling to see how any of the issues you list apart possibly from the OGL are executive decisions gone wrong. Executives are not writing one dnd, and we have not seen the completed product, an executive did not write the Hadozee, and I don’t see why DnD wanting to get into the VTT space is controversial. And the Kyle Brink statement shows that the problem has been identified and is being rectified. In fact if anything his statement shows he needs to be the one fired because he dropped the ball. Now I don’t think anyone should be fired over the OGL it is far more important that the company learn the lessons and apply them, and they are, which is far far more then many many many other companies would do in this situation.
Kyle is what we call a Fall Guy Executive. He's there to stir the pot and be sacrificed to appease fans as far as I can tell. It's a common tactic to take heat off the actual people in charge. Alta Fox Capitol already named who is at fault, and I'll take the CEO of the investment group who owns a measurable chunk of the company knowing who is at fault any day, especially when you have companies like Black Rock and Vanguard liking their angry twitter rants and agreeing with them.
I also hate the artwork of the most recent edition.
Elsewhere when I pointed out how it pales in comparison to that of the likes of Caldwell, Elmore, Easley, or Parkinson someone said Wizards "don't have the money" to pay for such artwork and I laughed so hard I thought I might die.
They have the money. They just don't want to spend it.
Some smaller publishers are said to pay their writers and artists better than Wizards do theirs.
Wizards cut costs. And it shows in their artwork and it shows in the quality—or lack of rather—of their physical books compared to those of other companies many of which are practically works of art themselves.
Do you have any financials to actually back this up? Especially considering the inflation that's been occurring in pretty much everything else ever since Russia decided Crimea was not enough for them?
"Wizards Revenue Grew 3% to $1.33 Billion in 2022 ..."
But they can't afford to pay for decent art?
They don't even pay for proper stitching and instead just glue their books together. They are cheapskates like most multi-nationals who want to make more money for less.
I worked in the book industry for over fifteen years. And am a collector. I can tell the difference between a quality book and a tacky one.
Five years ago, WotC were said to be paying freelancers between 7 to 13 cents a word. LotFP during that same period were paying them 21 cents a word. This for even their lowest sellers. And they were producing more books a year. It has been pretty common knowledge in the hobby for at least half a decade that some of these OSR publishers don't treat their hired talent like livestock and pay them well. Some other smaller publishers are hiring artists who produced some of the most iconic art during the formative years of the hobby.
Wizards are cheapskates. You can rush to defend them on any front that is a matter of opinion but don't act like they'e not cutting costs when that is indisputable.
You cite revenue growth, but not a word about costs. If revenue went up 3% but costs went up more than 3%, it is a net loss, not a net gain.
Furthermore, given WotC historically has made most of its money from Magic the Collectable Card Game, why would you assume the revenue gains are coming from D&D? Why should Magic players be subsidizing a different game?
You need to look at the entire financial statements, not just cherry pick a number out of context.
While I generally agree with this statement, I'd also like to emphasize that, in the context of this discussion, we are talking about a BILLION dollar company hiring ~5 people? Even if their costs have doubled over the past decade, I don't imagine that a company like WotC is walking the knife's edge that smaller creators hiring 3rd party publishers and contracting out their artwork aren't. If you think that WotC isn't benefiting from massive economies of scale, having multiple ongoing products, continuous publishing and a continuous stream of new work for back-channel partners across the spectrum, you should be proving that, not the other way around. In my mind, if WotC is losing money, that's a management problem not a market problem, especially considering that everyone seems to agree that the hobby has boomed/is exploding in popularity.
Also, for the record, I've never been disappointed with WotC's use of artwork in any of my books (except when full pages are wasted space and I feel it detracts from content.) So I think the guy you're arguing with is FOS. I'm just pointing out that deep diving WotC financials to "prove" that WotC is too poor to hire an extra artist is a fools errand and a meaningless red herring. That information isn't availible with the granularity one would need to actually argue either of your points successfully, and both logically and economically, the argument that the billion dollar monster can't get what it wants is silly. Do you doubt that WotC had a variety of publication options at their disposal? Do you doubt that someone at WotC is somehow responsible for the choice to bind the books in glue or acquire the art used in their books? What exactly is it that you think you're accomplishing here? What's the actual argument?
Personally I think Hasbro needs to clean house with the executives that keep making mistakes with the D&D brand and the community. They are massively out of touch with the gamers that play the game - like a parent overseeing a child. From the Hadozee controversy, to OneDND(aka 5.5e), to the OGL, to VTT's, and then to Kyle Brink's recent statements... they show a massive lack of leadership and seem to be fumbling from one screw up to the next. I'm not renewing till someone appoints a Marvel style executive officer ala Kevin Feige who knows the D&D brand and loves it enough to make it an amazing product for all gamers.
I meant there are many many people who would tell you that Feige has destroyed marvel especially with the recent set of movies and tv shows. I am also struggling to see how any of the issues you list apart possibly from the OGL are executive decisions gone wrong. Executives are not writing one dnd, and we have not seen the completed product, an executive did not write the Hadozee, and I don’t see why DnD wanting to get into the VTT space is controversial. And the Kyle Brink statement shows that the problem has been identified and is being rectified. In fact if anything his statement shows he needs to be the one fired because he dropped the ball. Now I don’t think anyone should be fired over the OGL it is far more important that the company learn the lessons and apply them, and they are, which is far far more then many many many other companies would do in this situation.
Kyle is what we call a Fall Guy Executive. He's there to stir the pot and be sacrificed to appease fans as far as I can tell. It's a common tactic to take heat off the actual people in charge. Alta Fox Capitol already named who is at fault, and I'll take the CEO of the investment group who owns a measurable chunk of the company knowing who is at fault any day, especially when you have companies like Black Rock and Vanguard liking their angry twitter rants and agreeing with them.
This is a fair point. Also, from the interviews, Kyle and Kyle's team were (previously) not responsible for, nor aware of in any significant capacity literally anything that was going on in any significant way. Even now, as the executive in charge of cleaning up the mess, he's not aware of who was approached and offered terms outside of the OGL, what those terms were, or why they might have "felt that their feedback was being ignored." So why on earth should we care what he says happened? He wasn't there. He might have been aware of it, but, from what I can tell he was busy actively burying his head in the sand and not telling his people what was happening until they found out about it on the news.
Already started moving over to the Demiplane Nexus Alpha. Looks promising and I will probably stick with it.
The age of OGL is over. The Time of the ORC has come!
The moment that WotC declares OGL 1.0a "de-authorized", "revoked" or any such nonsense is the moment I release as much content as possible under OGL 1.0a and say, "Sue me WotC". OGL1.0a cannot be revoked. If thousands of us do it, the countersuit will be a class action suit.
I have stayed subbed throughout. I do not like the direction of the company, the new artwork, or the direction they are taking much of the system and lore; however, my group and I have tried other systems and prefer 5th ed…for the most part.
Our plan is to selectively take inspiration from future releases, remove the nonsense, then decide if we will invest any money beyond basic D&D Beyond subs. No more investing with out testing, and likely going to print, since the future of this app seems to be in question.
Our group was definitely not aware of that. We have not as of yet invested in many third party supplements, but if is true they are treating their creators better, than we might start.
Was planning to resub today...
But as my character sheets haven't worked in like 3 days, I guess I'll wait.
Couldn't have said it better myself!
I'm struggling to find a reason to resub. I'm happy about the new OGL news, but as a product D&D Beyond is just not what it once was.
I think he might mean that even though it still works quite decently for having your characters at hand.
The updates feel lack luster. Less personal and more sterile. No more streams, some books still have to be implemented correctly. It does feel like the evolution that felt constant at DnDbeyond had stopped. Or at least slowed down incredibly imho.
That's part of it. I subscribed years ago in part because of the potential I saw for Beyond as a platform, rather than just the contemporary state. I don't think Beyond has made much progress toward that potential at all in the past two years. I homebrew a lot, for instance, and a homebrew revamp was removed from the public roadmap a long time ago after having been teased for over a year.
There's also the issue of the company having almost entirely shed its user-facing moderators. There is almost zero engagement nowadays, which makes me feel less inclined to sub on the grounds of supporting people who supported us. The engagement we get nowadays is almost entirely the remaining mods putting out fires (I certainly am not blaming the mods).
Overall the site is just stagnant and decidedly less fun than it used to be. After WotC acquired Beyond, something important broke, and if the acquisition couldn't reinvigorate the platform, my individual subscription sure won't.
I must say that I always thought of D&D Beyond as "digital publishing" (and I suspect that's what WotC considers it to be), so the fact it's not updating stuff I don't use is... not particularly concerning. But then again, I was never subscribed in the first place, because if I'm not running games via DDB I don't need to be.
Exactly this. I don't see much reason to resubscribe because I don't know what exactly that money is funding anymore. Before, there were clear plans and goals in place to make DDB an even better campaign hub (shareable inventories, item trading between players in the same campaign, updates to make the homebrew system less tedious, among others). There has been no visible progress on any of those in years, and simple aspects of many of the released books are still not implemented.
I understand these are very niche things that only impact a small percentage of games, but all of the things listed above are official D&D content and it seems weird that they aren't fully supported by what is now the official digital platform for D&D. Especially since I, as a simple user of the platform, could replicate most of those features in X0 minutes by making Homebrew feats. If it's that easy for me to do, why is it so hard to update the site to just natively support them?
Back when Adam was in charge, there was constant communication about what was going on behind the scenes - even if we didn't get to know everything. I still remember the agonizing wait for the character sheet revamp, and getting excited for the Dev Update for any new info or even just a glance at it. That revamp was teased for months, and the team was very clear about letting the community know what features it would include at launch and what would be added later.
Now... what is being developed? What is being worked on? As far as I can tell, my subscription pays for someone to type up whatever text is in the newest book, link some tooltips, and call it a day. Or design new digital dice and character sheet cosmetics. Those are nice, sure, but surface-level updates don't replace substance.
If I see any notable progress or developments on the site, I'll consider resubbing. But as it stands, it feels like flushing money down the drain.
I didn't unsubscribed because I'm in the middle of a campaign I'm DMing, but maybe I will when this campaign ends in a few months.
I'm not sure yet if I'll still be playing DnD after this campaign. This whole OGL story opened my eyes on other TTRPG (I spent more cash in DCC this month than in DND last year...). The only certain thing right now is that I won't purchase any more content on DDB. Even if those are only rumors, the idea that the next step is paying $30/month to get access to full content annoys me. I'll stick to what I have until WoTC communicate on a clear roadmap about DDB.
DnD is not a game I can play often enough to accept a more expensive subscription. It's not a question of price; it's a question of being rational. And if the rumor appears to be true, then it means WoTC doesn't pay attention to the kind of players/DM like me who struggles to gather its players once a month (twice when lucky).
WoTC already lost me as a MtG player (who used to spend a lot of money in it !) and are on the fence to lose me as a DnD player (but I know they don't give a shit about it...).
Personally I think Hasbro needs to clean house with the executives that keep making mistakes with the D&D brand and the community. They are massively out of touch with the gamers that play the game - like a parent overseeing a child. From the Hadozee controversy, to OneDND(aka 5.5e), to the OGL, to VTT's, and then to Kyle Brink's recent statements... they show a massive lack of leadership and seem to be fumbling from one screw up to the next. I'm not renewing till someone appoints a Marvel style executive officer ala Kevin Feige who knows the D&D brand and loves it enough to make it an amazing product for all gamers.
@kotath That is a fair statement, but my point is that currently nobody is running the show. They need to appoint 1 person with a clear vision that has "fan service" in-mind when making decisions. I'm all for corporate profits as long as it is presented properly to the community. Corporate profit has be driven by a market demand.
Right now, I believe I will not resubscribe. I am awaiting an apology from the executive producer that insulted my category of gamer and I got warned for stating this.
I meant there are many many people who would tell you that Feige has destroyed marvel especially with the recent set of movies and tv shows. I am also struggling to see how any of the issues you list apart possibly from the OGL are executive decisions gone wrong. Executives are not writing one dnd, and we have not seen the completed product, an executive did not write the Hadozee, and I don’t see why DnD wanting to get into the VTT space is controversial. And the Kyle Brink statement shows that the problem has been identified and is being rectified. In fact if anything his statement shows he needs to be the one fired because he dropped the ball. Now I don’t think anyone should be fired over the OGL it is far more important that the company learn the lessons and apply them, and they are, which is far far more then many many many other companies would do in this situation.
Kyle is what we call a Fall Guy Executive. He's there to stir the pot and be sacrificed to appease fans as far as I can tell. It's a common tactic to take heat off the actual people in charge. Alta Fox Capitol already named who is at fault, and I'll take the CEO of the investment group who owns a measurable chunk of the company knowing who is at fault any day, especially when you have companies like Black Rock and Vanguard liking their angry twitter rants and agreeing with them.
100% resubbed. My wants have been met and recent interviews seem to indicate that the platform will see further development.
While I generally agree with this statement, I'd also like to emphasize that, in the context of this discussion, we are talking about a BILLION dollar company hiring ~5 people? Even if their costs have doubled over the past decade, I don't imagine that a company like WotC is walking the knife's edge that smaller creators hiring 3rd party publishers and contracting out their artwork aren't. If you think that WotC isn't benefiting from massive economies of scale, having multiple ongoing products, continuous publishing and a continuous stream of new work for back-channel partners across the spectrum, you should be proving that, not the other way around. In my mind, if WotC is losing money, that's a management problem not a market problem, especially considering that everyone seems to agree that the hobby has boomed/is exploding in popularity.
Also, for the record, I've never been disappointed with WotC's use of artwork in any of my books (except when full pages are wasted space and I feel it detracts from content.) So I think the guy you're arguing with is FOS. I'm just pointing out that deep diving WotC financials to "prove" that WotC is too poor to hire an extra artist is a fools errand and a meaningless red herring. That information isn't availible with the granularity one would need to actually argue either of your points successfully, and both logically and economically, the argument that the billion dollar monster can't get what it wants is silly. Do you doubt that WotC had a variety of publication options at their disposal? Do you doubt that someone at WotC is somehow responsible for the choice to bind the books in glue or acquire the art used in their books? What exactly is it that you think you're accomplishing here? What's the actual argument?
This is a fair point. Also, from the interviews, Kyle and Kyle's team were (previously) not responsible for, nor aware of in any significant capacity literally anything that was going on in any significant way. Even now, as the executive in charge of cleaning up the mess, he's not aware of who was approached and offered terms outside of the OGL, what those terms were, or why they might have "felt that their feedback was being ignored." So why on earth should we care what he says happened? He wasn't there. He might have been aware of it, but, from what I can tell he was busy actively burying his head in the sand and not telling his people what was happening until they found out about it on the news.
"I've got nowhere else to go" Zack Mayo